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Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by Distaste Originally posted by jusomdude You're still doing pretty much the same activities as every other MMO with quests. Cannot agree with that being considered chaning half the MMORPG. You accquire the quests differently but it's all gather x, kill x, etc.
I wouldn't say it is 1/2 but it most certainly changes a large portion of the MMORPG.
In previous games you need to pick up quests, do what the quests say, and return to turn those quests in. The quests force you to go place and pretty much drag you through the game. If your friend logs in he needs to have the same quest your on to be rewarded for helping and if he already did it he gets nothing. If your friend is higher level then he is basically doing all the work.
In GW2 you just run around and do things as they pop up, there can be multiple ways to complete an event, you don't need to return to an NPC to complete it(unless it's a gather one!), and you don't even need to stay until the event finishes. The events don't force you to go places or drag you through the game, you can explore, craft, and do other events to level. If your friend gets on all you need to do is meet up in the world. The only thing required for you to play together is that you do events in the lower level players range. The higher level friend still gets rewarded so he is happy to help. The higher level is also down-leveled she he isn't doing all the work and making things trivial.
Do you see the difference? One is very linear and restrictive, the other is non-linear and offers a lot of freedom. GW2 isn't changing what you do, it's changing how you do it. How you do it is almost always more important than what you do. Killing 20 stationary boars is boring(pun intended), killing 20 boars that are all charging at a settlement is a lot funner.
I agree but most peoples only argument against this is well you will get bored with it eventually.. well no s*it anyone will get bored with anything after enough time the main thing with GW2 questing is how varied it is and if anet lives up to what they say they will always be added and changing DE's making repeat visit through zones even more varied and unique than they are now.
I think the strangest part is that they act like doing the same raid over and over again doesn't get boring. Once you complete a raid once (they usually last from 3 - 6 hours), it gets boring. Repeating the same 3 - 6 hours of content over and over again isn't my idea of a design decision that takes away the boredom.
yea i honestly think people that present these arguments really have no reason but to troll.. i really don't get their view of the game or games in general. A game should be fun, you play it till it's not fun anymore then you stop and move on to the next one this isn't a contract it's not marriage. You aren't locked down into this game you play it as long as you get enjoyment out of it. If that's 3 months or 3 years then great either way. Best part is B2P and how scaling works I could jump in anytime and enjoy the new content whenever I want
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"~Lord George Gordon Byron
Originally posted by otinanai123 Originally posted by seridan Originally posted by otinanai123 Actually it's the "I'm a realist and not a fanboy" mentality. And Anet seems to be on our camp. They halved the servers in bwe 3. They recently changed the server transfer costs to make it cheaper to move to low pop servers. GW2 doesn't have cross-server pvp/pve like wow and many other MMOs, which is a good thing as long as they are quick to react when servers get empty (either with merges or with free server transfers, bonuses a la WAR etc) They didn't halve the servers. They doubled the servers from BWE1 in BWE2 but double servers was too much so they reduced them for BWE3, if they had halved servers for BWE3 then there would be the same number of servers as BWE1 which it wasn't the case. BWE1 had too few servers and BWE2 had too many servers. They settled somewhere in-between. BWE3 has less servers even than BWE1 if this is correct: http://www.arena.net/blog/were-ready-for-this-weekends-beta
. bwe2 had about 96 servers and bwe3 45. sPVP is cross server. Guesting allows easy cross-server PVE so I don't understand the "doesn't have cross-server pvp/pve. You can play on any server you want, whenever you want, except for WvW. guesting can further imbalance the servers. If someone finds himself on an empty server he will probably want to guest on a full/high one. One night during bwe3 i decided to stay on a very low pop overflow server and it just wasn't fun: - didn't see many people around, the world felt empty - couldn't do most DEs because they were group events, couldn't solo many champion mobs - dead map chat - it pretty much felt like a singleplayer game but one where you have to skip a lot of content. Oddly enough when I was on overflow servers they were almost always full, even more people than regular ones. Strange. you probably didn't play at 5 am then So yes, a healthy population is important, especially considering that there are many zones and the population will be spread out. Of course. But the way the game is built, older zones don't become irrelevant. The best way to deal with this is for Anet to make changes on the older zones first, add new DEs there or change existing ones, that way higher level players can go back and experience the "new" content, filling the older zones again. I think everyone is overestimating how many high levels will go back to lowbie zones. The only reason to go back is for map completion.
. bwe2 had about 96 servers and bwe3 45.
5 a.m. you say. Hmmm, I wonder why the backup server would actually have a low pop at such an active time of the day? Such a difficult question to answer.
Also, the reasons YOU will go back will be for map completion. I will go back because, they will be adding in new events without letting you know about them, I love certain zones, and I like to run around with newbies.
Originally posted by jusomdude You're still doing pretty much the same activities as every other MMO with quests. Cannot agree with that being considered chaning half the MMORPG. You accquire the quests differently but it's all gather x, kill x, etc.
Wait a sec. You're trying to tell me it's the same as playing Baldur's Gate or Arena just because i'm killing "stuff"?
What am i supposed to do with my sword? scratching my back?
Of course there is killing stuff involved in the process but what's changing is
-how you start doing it (no quest hub, no "checklist" mentality, no linear questing)
-how you do it (no mob tagging, you share loot, autogroup)
-how that "thing" is working (it scales with the players! it activates without players input)
-why you do it (you are not killing 10 mob... you are achieving an objective and killing an unknown number of mob in the process shifting the focus of the whole thing)
-what consequences there will be (after a quest all it's still the same, events slightly change the world around you... also they can fail!)
How is that the "pretty much the same"?
Theres no endgame, just game :P
You see... everything you will enjoy at level 80 you can do right from the start. Why is this a bad thing?
Yes more zones,skills etc open up as you level but you have access to the same activities.
I am not as worried about "endgame" in a pve sense like some people seem to be because I love pvp and GW2 offers enough of both aspects to please me.
Will I grind dynamic events @ 80? probrably not so I dont see myself getting sick of them. I will do some here and there and will re-visit older zones helping my friends level their toons or alts. I will spend the majority of my time pvping (sPvP, WvW) and offtimes doing dungeons and crafting consumables.
You see, GW2 doesnt focus on the end, they just focus on the game.
You wont have to worry about hitting max level before the game "starts"
You wont have to worry about grinding max level dungeons for a solid armor set and then grinding those same dungeons on a heroic type version for a slightly better set so you can start entry level raids and so on and on and on...
Goodbye gear treadmill, about time imho.
So your idea of endgame doesnt exist here, we dont want it here.
End game is the different types of pvp, dynamic events, crafting and dungeons. You wont have that carrot leading you around at 80. So why would you play if theres no new phat lewtz to grind for? or gear disparity to wtfpwn newbs... I dunno, fun maybe? balanced and competitive pvp.
Raiding can be one type of endgame but its far from the only one.
Originally posted by jusomdude It's overblown thread titles and out of proportion promoting of the game that people don't agree with. Trying to say it's something greater than it really is.
I see the same handfull of people(almost all sandbox only fans or strictly raiders) not listening or caring to try to see whats put before them. Then bringing up ridiculous arguments like GW2 questing and leveling being the the same as every MMO that has come before it. You can dislike the game all you like but the reasons so many people bring up are generally just not true at all and come from people who dislike the game because A. It's not a sandbox or B. It doesn't offer wow style raiding.
Maybe OP ........Maybe this game is not for you.
How do you know what other people will feel after level 80? You dont know what I think.
-I am here to perform logic
Originally posted by Jimmydean Originally posted by yaoming36 People will get bored of DEs eventually, then what? Soo many of these threads and comments... yes you can get bored of DEs if you're doing the same one for a couple hours. Imagine this, you've just hit level 80. You can now go back to any zone and do any DE. If you've played in any of the betas/stress tests, you'll know there is a TON of DEs just in the starter zones. And like devs have said, an area might have 100 DEs now, 3 years from now it might have 300. And because of level-scaling you can always go back to check out these new DEs. If you mean the whole concept of DEs then MAYBE you can get bored but they are so varied that you can always choose to go something more fun
And there are thousands and thousands of varied quests in games like World of Warcraft and Rift. What is your point exactly?
I think his point is once you do a quest in like WoW it is done. You can't do it again. DEs in GW2 I can do today and then in a couple weeks go back with my friend and help him do it and I still get some type of reward for it.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by jusomdude It's overblown thread titles and out of proportion promoting of the game that people don't agree with. Trying to say it's something greater than it really is.
im all about the sandbox, but some of us can still appreciate and enjoy other games or themeparks for what they are.
You other sandboxers are giving us a bad name!
anyway, the people that think raiding is the only endgame are funny. They are obviously generation wow. The same mindset that has put the genre in a horrible state imho.
ArenaNet sacrifies the notion of neverending progression in order to create more fun.
With a set of fresh ideas like no gear-grind, downleveling, etc they accomplish a new feeling of freedom. Players can choose to do whatever to do, whenever they want to. Yes, this is more casual-oriented, but the old hardcore/casual-discussion has always been a fluke. GW2 rewards you, if you invest a lot of time, but it does not punish you, if you don't. And the game-mechanics encourage players to cooperate. WoW had so many mechanics that turned normal people into paranoic assholes.
One example: There is a big difference, if I do play less for some time and I want to do some PvP:
A: Hi, what about PvP, I would like to do some with you.
B: Sorry, but with your crappy gear you are completely worthless. Please earn some honour in BGs to get a full set before you ask us again. You need at least 2000 resilence.
A: Uh, those BGs are horrible, there are waiting-cues, nobody plays together, I don't like it.
B: That's normal. Just stand around and do nothing, you will earn honour nevertheless. You can watch TV in the same time, telephone or do something else.
A: Omg, it's so awful and this is going to take weeks...
A: Hi, what about PvP, I would....
B: Come to us immediately! We need some help with our castle siege! And don't forget to bring some supply!
One must be very blind to not see the difference and ignorant to not acknowledge the huge improvement.
In the end every MMO has some stuff everybody does again and again:
GW2 has all of these things, the big advantage is, that you just can do what you want, because you never feel guilty for not farming better gear. You can even take a break from this game without any problem.
It is about time that MMOs become fun-oriented as all other games in the world.
People around the world play every day:
Chess - although they will never "earn" better chess pieces with superior movement-possibilities.
Basketball - although they will never be rewarded with "epic" shoes that let them jump higher and shoot the ball more accurately.
Guitar - although they will never "loot" a guitar that let them play better.
None of these would ever complain about the lack of progression. They would never stop playing chess, basketball, guitar because "there is no endgame". They wouldn't even understand what a typical MMO-player is talking about.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
Originally posted by Jimmydean So GW2 re-did half of the MMORPG. They changed the level experience from quest grinding, to dynamic event grinding. But how much time did we really spend leveling? How much fun did you have during the leveling process of most games? Imagine this. Some people say raiders' are a small population of the playerbase. I say otherwise. Rather than getting rid of "endgame", I say the next truly successful MMORPG will re-do endgame. And I don't mean LFR either, that was more like groups in school you never wanted to be a part of but was forced to be. So any input? Maybe GW2 could be the first to do it. People will get bored of DEs eventually, then what? I won't claim to have the answers. A lot of people are tired of the current raid system, that doesn't mean they hate raids. Maybe throw around some ideas of how end-game could be redone.
1.5% of the playerbase in WoW completed Firelands on normal. The number of players who raid has been consistent in WoW at between 5% and 10% until LFR. The exception to this seems to have been ICC, when they instituted progressive content nerfs, when that number seems to have approached 20%. Thats people who entered the raid and killed a boss, not people who cleared the content.
I do not have current statistics on the impact of LFR on the numbers of people participating, but I imagine it is high enough that they implemented it for all tiers of MoP. Some people don't like this because they feel it trivializes raiding.
Raiding has always been for the "gaming elite" who have the time and energy to commit to such things, and making content that is exclusive to these players does not make a lot of sense, does it? The majority of gamers enjoy 5 mans, questing, crafting, and social activities.
If you have different data, please present it.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Originally posted by doragon86 OP clearly likes raids. The OP equates raids to endgame. Henceforth, in their minds GW2 has no endgame due to the nonexistence of raids. Anyone who tries to respectfully explain otherwise, is met with rudeness. Any discussion pertaining to endgame that doesn't involve how to improve raiding is met with rudeness. Doesn't want to accept that there can be other ways to go about endgame besides raiding.
About sums it up.
Originally posted by Amjoco Originally posted by Jimmydean Originally posted by yaoming36 People will get bored of DEs eventually, then what? Soo many of these threads and comments... yes you can get bored of DEs if you're doing the same one for a couple hours. Imagine this, you've just hit level 80. You can now go back to any zone and do any DE. If you've played in any of the betas/stress tests, you'll know there is a TON of DEs just in the starter zones. And like devs have said, an area might have 100 DEs now, 3 years from now it might have 300. And because of level-scaling you can always go back to check out these new DEs. If you mean the whole concept of DEs then MAYBE you can get bored but they are so varied that you can always choose to go something more fun
not to mention most quests in games like wow and Rift have very low presentation value making it even less interesting to revist things. With how DE's works you may never get to certain DE's from start to finish since they go on with or without you. You may might miss a certain point of the chain so revisiting them can be a whole new experience altogether in that respect. Like poster said a couple posts above presentation is key and how GW2 does it keeps things more varied and unique when it comes to questing and leveling as a whole.
That's just plain false. The quests offer a few new things which I can see, I just don't see how it's so much better than traditional questing.
I didn't even say it was exactly the same but it boils down to killing and collecting for the DE's I've seen.
Originally posted by Preacher26
I love sandbox games as well I just think it's ridiculous people discredit or hate on a game soley based on the fact it's not a sandbox.
Though I don't agree with the OP at all, his post here was not to look at what "Endgame" in GW2 is or is not, but come up with alternate possibilities for Endgame that cater more to the Hard-Core raiders.
You don't have to agree with his views, but trying to convince him to like Endgame as it is in GW2 is just a wast of time.
Originally posted by jusomdude Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by jusomdude It's overblown thread titles and out of proportion promoting of the game that people don't agree with. Trying to say it's something greater than it really is.
then you haven't seen many and you are making a overgeneralized assumption on what you think the game is. But again most any RPG games core quests will be about killing and collecting if you don't enjoy that I'd try a differn't genre perhaps, and again presentation is what sets things apart not sure how in the videos I posted earlier or the ones in my sig you can't see the huge difference between how the quests in GW2 are presented and played out compared to other MMOs
Originally posted by Purgatus Though I don't agree with the OP at all, his post here was not to look at what "Endgame" in GW2 is or is not, but come up with alternate possibilities for Endgame that cater more to the Hard-Core raiders. You don't have to agree with his views, but trying to convince him to like Endgame as it is in GW2 is just a wast of time.
How do you think the wow community would react if I posted a similiar thread in the wow forums asking for an alternative endgame where gear doesnt matter and everyone would be equal in power as soon as they hit the level cap?
The OP stated GW2 doesnt have an endgame, so he is wrong. Obviously his intent was not to discuss what types of content could be added in the future to fill the void raiders may feel.
If people enjoy constantly grinding gear, maybe.. just maybe this games not for them. Some people would rather just enjoy a game from day one. Not all of us want a second job. Not all of us want to put in 6 months to hit max level and grind gear so we can be competitive.
I agree this thread sort of spun off-topic but mainly from OP's arrogant replies to many posts and suprised it hasn't been locked yet...
No, just no.
Originally posted by Preacher26 Originally posted by Purgatus Though I don't agree with the OP at all, his post here was not to look at what "Endgame" in GW2 is or is not, but come up with alternate possibilities for Endgame that cater more to the Hard-Core raiders. You don't have to agree with his views, but trying to convince him to like Endgame as it is in GW2 is just a wast of time.
Obviously his intent was not to discuss what types of content could be added in the future to fill the void raiders may feel.
That's actually exactly what this post was made for.
The thing is, and that you seem to be missing, is that there are end game aspects in GW2 that DO cater to (some of) the hard-core raiders. I WAS a hardcore raider in WoW and in EQ2, but I find GW2's approach to be a breath of fresh air.
I was a hard core raider in order to SEE the content and to get some of the gear because...wait for it...I liked how it looked. The extra power and extra stats was never an incentive to me. Simply because I am smart enough to understand that when content is tiered, the extra power is an illusion...because along with the extra power comes more difficulty, which just levels the field right back to where it was.
GW2 has plenty to do, even for people who were hard core raiders, and that is all others in this thread have been pointing out.
Just because someone can not see the forest through the trees does not mean the forest is not there.
Originally posted by Jimmydean Originally posted by Preacher26 Originally posted by Purgatus Though I don't agree with the OP at all, his post here was not to look at what "Endgame" in GW2 is or is not, but come up with alternate possibilities for Endgame that cater more to the Hard-Core raiders. You don't have to agree with his views, but trying to convince him to like Endgame as it is in GW2 is just a wast of time.
But the percentage of the playerbase that actually raids is quite low. Should content be made just for these people?
if that was exactly your intent you should of worded the OP a bit differn't because how i and most people read it was that endgame is either lacking or non existant so what are ideas to change that.