But then again, Elder Scrolls was never a strong selling title on PC platform so it somewhat makes sense not to keep same art appeal. Just I feel a bit disappointed about it
0.o was morrowind not game of the year for pc? and oblivion aswel?
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@Gdemani ; Generally, games with awards tends to have the sales to back them up. Skyrim alone had an insane amount of awards, especially GOTY. Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim have still managed to bring significant sales, despite being very taxing computer-wise when they launched.
The more comments I read from the TESO development team, the more disenchanted I become. Based on what has been written I feel a robust cooperative play mod and PVP maps for Skyrim with a cash shop for cosmetic additions would have a larger player base and net more profit over time than the proposed Elders Scrolls Online and accomplish the same objective. It would have had a much smaller development cost as well. Maybe it will surprise me and prove to be a good game in its own right but it’s development team comments like those that lead me to wonder if MMORPGs really are becoming a thing of the past...
I honestly hope another team works on a potential Fallout mmorpg.
I am the only gamer that still gets excited about games before they come out, instead of acting like a bored teenager with an iPhone in one hand and a console controller in the other.
I always HOPE FOR THE BEST when a questionable game comes out, rather then make a slack-jawed "omg sux" decision.
When I heard that TES mmo was in the works it excited me. If its vanilla-plain or just not worth it, I wont re-sub. Spending $60 for a game and getting at least 1 month of free play is easily affordable if you have a JOB (or vote!). Do the adult thing kiddos, and just dont resub if/when it sucks.
Geez, some of you seriously need a daddy to toss the ball around with and maybe learn some facts about life. Things happen. Roll with it. Some more things happen. And know what? After that, something else happens.
Originally posted by MadnessRealm @Gdemani Generally, games with awards tends to have the sales to back them up. Skyrim alone had an insane amount of awards, especially GOTY. Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim have still managed to bring significant sales, despite being very taxing computer-wise when they launched.Either way, here's a good read on Skyrim's sales, although there are no direct number to distinguish between PC and console aside from Steam's launch numbers : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_V:_Skyrim#Sales
Morrowind and Oblivion are the same. Consoles is where their sales are strong at, not PC platform.
Elder Scrolls might be popular and create some buzz in certain circles but still minor when compared to other genres or platforms.
That is most likely a reason why TESO will keep little resemblance with TES series, it would not make much sense otherwise. I only hoped for the art as I am a bit fed up with the generic, cartoon-asian-style look of fantasy games.
@Gdemani ; Generally, games with awards tends to have the sales to back them up. Skyrim alone had an insane amount of awards, especially GOTY. Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim have still managed to bring significant sales, despite being very taxing computer-wise when they launched.
That is most likely a reason why TESO will keep little resemblance with TES series, it would not make much sense otherwise. I only hoped for the art as I am a bit fed up with the generic, cartoon-asian-style look of fantasy games.
I really don't think it's because consoles are where the sales are at that TESO "must" be different from TES. As I've said in my previous post, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are very taxing on the computers, which are not as accessible in terms of cost compared to consoles (especially back around when Morrowind and Oblivion launched, prices for high-end computers were much higher). I could totally understand why TESO would need to have a different artstyle or graphic quality for an MMORPG however, because they're making a game that's restricted to the PC audience so it must be accessible to a wider range of PCs, but I see no reason to completely change the key elements of TES to fit a TESO MMO. The TES serie of SRPG is far too well-known and popular because of these very key elements (such as having no classes, housing, living world with the radiant AI, etc) removing them is ridiculous, and the Zenimax developers' reason to do so are even more ridiculous (housing = too hard).
What Zenimax basically did is they took a living animal (TES) and taxidermied it. It's still the same animal visually...or in name at least, but everything else changed.
I think TESO would've probably been a success (somewhat) had they launched around the same time as Warhammer Online did. They would've still felt a backlash from the TES fans to some extent, but they wouldn't have felt the backlash from MMO fans. The thing now though, is that the market is so oversaturated with WoW clones and failures that releasing yet another one at this stage is madness. On one hand, Zenimax worked on TESO for far too long (2007 I think?), and on the other, it gave Bethesda the time to continue to push their games on the next level (Fallout 3 and Skyrim) and really raise the bar of expectation. On top of that, it's fanbase as long been asking for co-op modes. There's just no way TESO will be a success.
Originally posted by MadnessRealm I really don't think it's because consoles are where the sales are at that TESO "must" be different from TES.
That is the only relevant factor.
It is the PC gamers that are likely to play PC based MMO and when you consider TES PC fan base as a part of MMO market, your target audience would be insignificant.
It makes more sense to focus on average MMO gamer rather than TES gamer.
You just need to stop looking at TESO from narrow prismatic of TES fan and see it more from business perspective.
Only Morrowind and Oblivion were "taxing" and that was because of very poor coding, which Bethesda is notoriously known for.
Also, art has nothing to do with performance requirements.
I really don't think it's because consoles are where the sales are at that TESO "must" be different from TES.
That is the only relevant factor.
It is the PC gamers that are likely to play PC based MMO and when you consider TES PC fan base as a part of MMO market, your target audience would be insignificant.
It makes more sense to focus on average MMO gamer rather than TES gamer.
You just need to stop looking at TESO from narrow prismatic of TES fan and see it more from business perspective.
Only Morrowind and Oblivion were "taxing" and that was because of very poor coding, which Bethesda is notoriously known for.
Also, art has nothing to do with performance requirements.
That is insanity.
if they do not have the ability to clearly understand how the TES fan base and MMO player base intersect and in which ways they intersect then they really need to not be in this industry at all.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD if they do not have the ability to clearly understand how the TES fan base and MMO player base intersect and in which ways they intersect then they really need to not be in this industry at all.
They do have the ability and that is why they make TESO the way they do. That was my whole point.
if they do not have the ability to clearly understand how the TES fan base and MMO player base intersect and in which ways they intersect then they really need to not be in this industry at all.
They do have the ability and that is why they make TESO the way they do. That was my whole point.
no they dont have the ablity they do not see the intersection AT ALL, they are as you are suggesting looking at two different existing demographics INSTEAD of seeing how the two can create a NEW demographic.
The key word in what I said is...INTERSECTION
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD no they dont have the ablity they do not see the intersection AT ALL, they are as you are suggesting going after two different existing demographics INSTEAD of seeing how the two can create a NEW demographic.The key word in what I said is...INTERSECTION
no they dont have the ablity they do not see the intersection AT ALL, they are as you are suggesting going after two different existing demographics INSTEAD of seeing how the two can create a NEW demographic.
The key word in what I said is...INTERSECTION
THAT is insanity...
no its honesty and experience. Thing is I think you know exactly what I am talking about.
Darkfall is a very good example of a starting point for that intersection.
Besides most EXISTING MMO players dont even like the direction MMOs are going but a company has to be innovative to know it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
What still boggles my mind is if they made as he says a lot of effort to keep lore consistent, why they did not do the same with art? The game looks nothing like Elder Scrolls.
But then again, Elder Scrolls was never a strong selling title on PC platform so it somewhat makes sense not to keep same art appeal. Just I feel a bit disappointed about it
Only if you define "strong selling" as 10 million plus.
Morrowind and Oblivion and even Skyrim moved millions of units on the PC. Even when it was on consoles, it had a certain art feel. They intentionally stayed away from the cartoony look that a lot of other RPG's had adopted. ESO looks like a cartoon. A very nice cartoon, but still a cartoon. Now we just need tons of particle effects swirling around people when spells are cast.
So you are correct on the art part, but don't get where whether or not it sold well on the PC having anything to do with why it isn't consistent with that art.
Originally posted by iceman00 Only if you define "strong selling" as 10 million plus.Morrowind and Oblivion and even Skyrim moved millions of units on the PC. Even when it was on consoles, it had a certain art feel. They intentionally stayed away from the cartoony look that a lot of other RPG's had adopted. ESO looks like a cartoon. A very nice cartoon, but still a cartoon. Now we just need tons of particle effects swirling around people when spells are cast.So you are correct on the art part, but don't get where whether or not it sold well on the PC having anything to do with why it isn't consistent with that art.
Already elaborated on it there:
Originally posted by Gdemami Well, according to Bethesda themselves, only about 10% of their Skyrim sales is towards PC platform. ie: http://www.neoseeker.com/news/16252-bethesda-90-of-elder-scrolls-audience-on-consoles/ Morrowind and Oblivion are the same. Consoles is where their sales are strong at, not PC platform. Elder Scrolls might be popular and create some buzz in certain circles but still minor when compared to other genres or platforms.
and again:
Originally posted by Gdemami That is the only relevant factor. It is the PC gamers that are likely to play PC based MMO and when you consider TES PC fan base as a part of MMO market, your target audience would be insignificant.It makes more sense to focus on average MMO gamer rather than TES gamer.
TES fan base is just too small compared to MMO customer base, therefore the game needs to cater to larger MMO audience, this includes art as well.
@Gdemani ; Generally, games with awards tends to have the sales to back them up. Skyrim alone had an insane amount of awards, especially GOTY. Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim have still managed to bring significant sales, despite being very taxing computer-wise when they launched.
Morrowind and Oblivion are the same. Consoles is where their sales are strong at, not PC platform.
Elder Scrolls might be popular and create some buzz in certain circles but still minor when compared to other genres or platforms.
That is most likely a reason why TESO will keep little resemblance with TES series, it would not make much sense otherwise. I only hoped for the art as I am a bit fed up with the generic, cartoon-asian-style look of fantasy games.
You might want to read.
The article is from April 2011. Skyrim wasn't released until later in the year.
Steam's stats show 5 million users who have played Skyrim.
As for the consoles, it probably had anywhere from 7 million upwards users. So the consoles had all the people getting it originally, but the PC sales are still going strong thanks to the modding community and the Steam Workshop which was launched with this game in mind.
Valve isn't going to use Skyrim as a test case for their workshop if barely anyone is playing it.
And you also forget, Elder scrolls released the high texture packs. Also combined with other user mods, honestly, the graphics turned out pretty freaking crazy. And the modding community hasn't even really started blowing it up yet. Just wait to see what you get near the end of this year with graphics mods.
So yeah, you run with an article that is old, and is proven obselete by more relevant and current data.
We know that Skyrim shipped over 10 million units in Jan. Let's say right now Skyrim has moved 12-13 million units. (Pretty conservative figure.)
Now according to you, that is 10% of users are PC users. That's 1.2 to 1.3 million users who are the BASE. These are the people who are going to be the ones you first appeal to before you start the mass marketing (which will follow.)
Not sure if you've noticed, but that base is bigger than most MMOs. Even if only 50% stayed, it would be in TOR territory, without TOR's budget.
So the audience for Skyrim is there. One thing about PC players of the Elder Scrolls series.... they are hardcore. If you give them something that is like TES, they will play the crap out of it. If anything this is a better advantage than the Star Wars IP, as the Star wars IP ranged from RPG's to FPS's to even an RTS.
The people who play Skyrim? They play the same genre.
The idea that TES' customer base on PC is too small to make a successful MMO really shows a disregard for the facts.
The real question is, if they consider the console game market to be their number one point of sale and priority for future development, then why bother making TESO just a PC game to begin with? Sure, rumor is they are leery of taking a jump before the next gen units arrive but fact is both MS and particularly SOE are willing to work with developers in that regard for future proofing a title. Just look at CCP and DUST514 as an example. As just a PC MMO it reads fail on so many levels but as a console game I’d have to look at it differently.
Try again what? My point still stands - Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are strong in sales on consoles, not PC platform.
PC platform is just minor customer base of their overall sales.
Originally posted by iceman00
That's 1.2 to 1.3 million users who are the BASE.
So that is 1.3M Skyrim player base compared to 20M MMO customer base...
none of this matters. TES fans are not console or PC players they are TES players. That is where this is such a massive fail on so many levels. If Zenimax truely are taking this warped view of things then they really need to be out of the industry. Again, we are TES fans NOT PC or Console fans.
An example of that is sports cars. Sport car fans who drive on the freeway in traffic are not freeway traffic fans now are they?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
0.o was morrowind not game of the year for pc? and oblivion aswel?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Heh.
What?
I speak English good.
Me understand what you say none. Ror.
Hey, pal. I'm allowed to say that I think TESO is a pile of fodder. Its completely within my rights to write that here.
Awards do speak for sales volumes.
@Nitth , Skyrim was also GOTY
@Gdemani ; Generally, games with awards tends to have the sales to back them up. Skyrim alone had an insane amount of awards, especially GOTY. Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim have still managed to bring significant sales, despite being very taxing computer-wise when they launched.
Either way, here's a good read on Skyrim's sales, although there are no direct number to distinguish between PC and console aside from Steam's launch numbers : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_V:_Skyrim#Sales
And you would be right, it is a pile of fodder. Hopefully Zenimax Online Studio's sad game won't affect BGS too much.
The more comments I read from the TESO development team, the more disenchanted I become. Based on what has been written I feel a robust cooperative play mod and PVP maps for Skyrim with a cash shop for cosmetic additions would have a larger player base and net more profit over time than the proposed Elders Scrolls Online and accomplish the same objective. It would have had a much smaller development cost as well. Maybe it will surprise me and prove to be a good game in its own right but it’s development team comments like those that lead me to wonder if MMORPGs really are becoming a thing of the past...
I honestly hope another team works on a potential Fallout mmorpg.
I must be getting old.
I am the only gamer that still gets excited about games before they come out, instead of acting like a bored teenager with an iPhone in one hand and a console controller in the other.
I always HOPE FOR THE BEST when a questionable game comes out, rather then make a slack-jawed "omg sux" decision.
When I heard that TES mmo was in the works it excited me. If its vanilla-plain or just not worth it, I wont re-sub. Spending $60 for a game and getting at least 1 month of free play is easily affordable if you have a JOB (or vote!). Do the adult thing kiddos, and just dont resub if/when it sucks.
Geez, some of you seriously need a daddy to toss the ball around with and maybe learn some facts about life. Things happen. Roll with it. Some more things happen. And know what? After that, something else happens.
-=W=-
"GW2 is the Methadone to WoWs Heroin."
Well, according to Bethesda themselves, only about 10% of their Skyrim sales is towards PC platform.
ie:
http://www.neoseeker.com/news/16252-bethesda-90-of-elder-scrolls-audience-on-consoles/
Morrowind and Oblivion are the same. Consoles is where their sales are strong at, not PC platform.
Elder Scrolls might be popular and create some buzz in certain circles but still minor when compared to other genres or platforms.
That is most likely a reason why TESO will keep little resemblance with TES series, it would not make much sense otherwise. I only hoped for the art as I am a bit fed up with the generic, cartoon-asian-style look of fantasy games.
I really don't think it's because consoles are where the sales are at that TESO "must" be different from TES. As I've said in my previous post, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are very taxing on the computers, which are not as accessible in terms of cost compared to consoles (especially back around when Morrowind and Oblivion launched, prices for high-end computers were much higher). I could totally understand why TESO would need to have a different artstyle or graphic quality for an MMORPG however, because they're making a game that's restricted to the PC audience so it must be accessible to a wider range of PCs, but I see no reason to completely change the key elements of TES to fit a TESO MMO. The TES serie of SRPG is far too well-known and popular because of these very key elements (such as having no classes, housing, living world with the radiant AI, etc) removing them is ridiculous, and the Zenimax developers' reason to do so are even more ridiculous (housing = too hard).
What Zenimax basically did is they took a living animal (TES) and taxidermied it. It's still the same animal visually...or in name at least, but everything else changed.
I think TESO would've probably been a success (somewhat) had they launched around the same time as Warhammer Online did. They would've still felt a backlash from the TES fans to some extent, but they wouldn't have felt the backlash from MMO fans. The thing now though, is that the market is so oversaturated with WoW clones and failures that releasing yet another one at this stage is madness. On one hand, Zenimax worked on TESO for far too long (2007 I think?), and on the other, it gave Bethesda the time to continue to push their games on the next level (Fallout 3 and Skyrim) and really raise the bar of expectation. On top of that, it's fanbase as long been asking for co-op modes. There's just no way TESO will be a success.
That is the only relevant factor.
It is the PC gamers that are likely to play PC based MMO and when you consider TES PC fan base as a part of MMO market, your target audience would be insignificant.
It makes more sense to focus on average MMO gamer rather than TES gamer.
You just need to stop looking at TESO from narrow prismatic of TES fan and see it more from business perspective.
Only Morrowind and Oblivion were "taxing" and that was because of very poor coding, which Bethesda is notoriously known for.
Also, art has nothing to do with performance requirements.
That is insanity.
if they do not have the ability to clearly understand how the TES fan base and MMO player base intersect and in which ways they intersect then they really need to not be in this industry at all.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
They do have the ability and that is why they make TESO the way they do. That was my whole point.
no they dont have the ablity they do not see the intersection AT ALL, they are as you are suggesting looking at two different existing demographics INSTEAD of seeing how the two can create a NEW demographic.
The key word in what I said is...INTERSECTION
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
THAT is insanity...
no its honesty and experience. Thing is I think you know exactly what I am talking about.
Darkfall is a very good example of a starting point for that intersection.
Besides most EXISTING MMO players dont even like the direction MMOs are going but a company has to be innovative to know it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
may i ask where is that image from? ^_^
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Only if you define "strong selling" as 10 million plus.
Morrowind and Oblivion and even Skyrim moved millions of units on the PC. Even when it was on consoles, it had a certain art feel. They intentionally stayed away from the cartoony look that a lot of other RPG's had adopted. ESO looks like a cartoon. A very nice cartoon, but still a cartoon. Now we just need tons of particle effects swirling around people when spells are cast.
So you are correct on the art part, but don't get where whether or not it sold well on the PC having anything to do with why it isn't consistent with that art.
Already elaborated on it there:
and again:
TES fan base is just too small compared to MMO customer base, therefore the game needs to cater to larger MMO audience, this includes art as well.
You might want to read.
The article is from April 2011. Skyrim wasn't released until later in the year.
Steam's stats show 5 million users who have played Skyrim.
As for the consoles, it probably had anywhere from 7 million upwards users. So the consoles had all the people getting it originally, but the PC sales are still going strong thanks to the modding community and the Steam Workshop which was launched with this game in mind.
Valve isn't going to use Skyrim as a test case for their workshop if barely anyone is playing it.
And you also forget, Elder scrolls released the high texture packs. Also combined with other user mods, honestly, the graphics turned out pretty freaking crazy. And the modding community hasn't even really started blowing it up yet. Just wait to see what you get near the end of this year with graphics mods.
So yeah, you run with an article that is old, and is proven obselete by more relevant and current data.
Care to try again?
But let's take your numbers.
We know that Skyrim shipped over 10 million units in Jan. Let's say right now Skyrim has moved 12-13 million units. (Pretty conservative figure.)
Now according to you, that is 10% of users are PC users. That's 1.2 to 1.3 million users who are the BASE. These are the people who are going to be the ones you first appeal to before you start the mass marketing (which will follow.)
Not sure if you've noticed, but that base is bigger than most MMOs. Even if only 50% stayed, it would be in TOR territory, without TOR's budget.
So the audience for Skyrim is there. One thing about PC players of the Elder Scrolls series.... they are hardcore. If you give them something that is like TES, they will play the crap out of it. If anything this is a better advantage than the Star Wars IP, as the Star wars IP ranged from RPG's to FPS's to even an RTS.
The people who play Skyrim? They play the same genre.
The idea that TES' customer base on PC is too small to make a successful MMO really shows a disregard for the facts.
The real question is, if they consider the console game market to be their number one point of sale and priority for future development, then why bother making TESO just a PC game to begin with? Sure, rumor is they are leery of taking a jump before the next gen units arrive but fact is both MS and particularly SOE are willing to work with developers in that regard for future proofing a title. Just look at CCP and DUST514 as an example. As just a PC MMO it reads fail on so many levels but as a console game I’d have to look at it differently.
Try again what? My point still stands - Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are strong in sales on consoles, not PC platform.
PC platform is just minor customer base of their overall sales.
So that is 1.3M Skyrim player base compared to 20M MMO customer base...
none of this matters. TES fans are not console or PC players they are TES players. That is where this is such a massive fail on so many levels. If Zenimax truely are taking this warped view of things then they really need to be out of the industry. Again, we are TES fans NOT PC or Console fans.
An example of that is sports cars. Sport car fans who drive on the freeway in traffic are not freeway traffic fans now are they?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Star ocean 3 right?
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