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GW2 re-did half of the MMORPG.

JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member

So GW2 re-did half of the MMORPG. They changed the level experience from quest grinding, to dynamic event grinding.  But how much time did we really spend leveling? How much fun did you have during the leveling process of most games?

Imagine this. Some people say raiders' are a small population of the playerbase. I say otherwise. Rather than getting rid of "endgame", I say the next truly successful MMORPG will re-do endgame. And I don't mean LFR either, that was more like groups in school you never wanted to be a part of but was forced to be. 

So any input? Maybe GW2 could be the first to do it.  People will get bored of DEs eventually, then what? I won't claim to have the answers. A lot of people are tired of the current raid system, that doesn't mean they hate raids. 

Maybe throw around some ideas of how end-game could be redone. 

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Comments

  • yaoming36yaoming36 None of your damn business, INPosts: 189Member Uncommon

     People will get bored of DEs eventually, then what? 

     

    Soo many of these threads and comments... yes you can get bored of DEs if you're doing the same one for a couple hours. Imagine this, you've just hit level 80. You can now go back to any zone and do any DE. If you've played in any of the betas/stress tests, you'll know there is a TON of DEs just in the starter zones. 

     

    And like devs have said, an area might have 100 DEs now, 3 years from now it might have 300. And because of level-scaling you can always go back to check out these new DEs. If you mean the whole concept of DEs then MAYBE you can get bored but they are so varied that you can always choose to go something more fun

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by yaoming36

     People will get bored of DEs eventually, then what? 

     

    Soo many of these threads and comments... yes you can get bored of DEs if you're doing the same one for a couple hours. Imagine this, you've just hit level 80. You can now go back to any zone and do any DE. If you've played in any of the betas/stress tests, you'll know there is a TON of DEs just in the starter zones. 

     

    And like devs have said, an area might have 100 DEs now, 3 years from now it might have 300. And because of level-scaling you can always go back to check out these new DEs. If you mean the whole concept of DEs then MAYBE you can get bored but they are so varied that you can always choose to go something more fun

    And there are thousands and thousands of varied quests in games like World of Warcraft and Rift. What is your point exactly?

  • RameiArashiRameiArashi Lincoln, NEPosts: 293Member
    Dungeons are for team play and five people is plenty.

    image

  • JagaridJagarid West Covina, CAPosts: 415Member

     


    Originally posted by Jimmydean So GW2 re-did half of the MMORPG. They changed the level experience from quest grinding, to dynamic event grinding.  But how much time did we really spend leveling? How much fun did you have during the leveling process of most games? Imagine this. Some people say raiders' are a small population of the playerbase. I say otherwise. Rather than getting rid of "endgame", I say the next truly successful MMORPG will re-do endgame. And I don't mean LFR either, that was more like groups in school you never wanted to be a part of but was forced to be.  So any input? Maybe GW2 could be the first to do it.  People will get bored of DEs eventually, then what? I won't claim to have the answers. A lot of people are tired of the current raid system, that doesn't mean they hate raids.  Maybe throw around some ideas of how end-game could be redone. 
     

     

    Blizzard released data on the amount of their player population that actually reached and went through their end-game raid content. In Vanilla WoW, that number was very low. Although it did increase in later expansions, particularly when it peaked in WotLK, it was still far, far below 50%. Pre-WoW, the games were designed to keep you in the leveling process as long as possible, so again the end game issue doesn't apply.

    Far more people leave a game once they reach the level cap, or roll alts, or PvP than raid, by quite a large margin.

    You are correct in terms of your views as it applies to that percentage of the players that do raid progression. Where you are missing the mark is in thinking that we (I also did raid progression) are representative of "most" MMO players.

    In a subscription game, we actually have more weight than our numbers should indicate in influencing design, because we are people that they can "trap on the treadmill" and collect monthly fees from for a long time.   In a B2P game like GW2, I think they are brilliant by catering to the larger portion of the player bases.  Especially because what they have done WILL also be appealing to many people who have done raid-progression in previous MMOs.  I can say this, because I am proof of that.

    I think this is the real reason why GW2 is bringing out the hate in a vocal minority of people in forums.  Those who do love raid-progression as the ultimate in end game content are threatened by the fact that a high quality, very polished MMO is being released who chose to just simply ignore what they are used to doing as if they don't matter.  Those people are used to having a lot more influence in MMO design than what their numbers should have dictated and that power will be greatly diminished if GW2 has long term success.   

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    have you even watched the video? they don't just say the whole game is endgame

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    have you even watched the video? they don't just say the whole game is endgame

    Yea I have. And yea they do.  They say you can do all of the things you did while leveling when you reach max level. You can grind skill points, exactly like you've been doing the entire game. Continuing to do dynamic events, the same you've been doing the entire game.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    have you even watched the video? they don't just say the whole game is endgame

    Yea I have. And yea they do.  They say you can do all of the things you did while leveling when you reach max level. You can grind skill points, exactly like you've been doing the entire game. Continuing to do dynamic events, the same you've been doing the entire game.

    i'd read this http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/360077/page/1 also if you still don't understand you may want to re-evaluate why you play these kinds of games to begin with.. also check out the elder dragon battles and read up on Orr

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by cyress8
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    [mod edit]

    I asked for suggestions for end-game ideas. Not saying how GW2 has endgame (when it doesn't).

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by cyress8
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    [mod edit]

    I asked for suggestions for end-game ideas. Not saying how GW2 has endgame (when it doesn't).

    it certainly does more than pretty much any other themepark MMO out there and definatley more than any themepark MMO ever at launch

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    have you even watched the video? they don't just say the whole game is endgame

    Yea I have. And yea they do.  They say you can do all of the things you did while leveling when you reach max level. You can grind skill points, exactly like you've been doing the entire game. Continuing to do dynamic events, the same you've been doing the entire game.

    i'd read this http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/360077/page/1 also if you still don't understand you may want to re-evaluate why you play these kinds of games to begin with.. also check out the elder dragon battles and read up on Orr

    Was Orr not just a giant zone with max level dynamic events? The same exact thing you've been doing the entire game? And with level scaling, I don't see how Orr is any different than any other zone.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    It's not the same. I think what they mean when they say that is...

     

    Dungeons, Dynamic Events, WvW, sPvP, Personal Story and Crafting are all part of their endgame activities available to the players. I don't think the intention is to tell people to go back and repeat content. It's just that at level 80, you will have zones dedicated to DEs, dungeons, WvW, sPvP, Personal Story and Crafting that will be available to do and be rewarded for.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    have you even watched the video? they don't just say the whole game is endgame

    Yea I have. And yea they do.  They say you can do all of the things you did while leveling when you reach max level. You can grind skill points, exactly like you've been doing the entire game. Continuing to do dynamic events, the same you've been doing the entire game.

    i'd read this http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/360077/page/1 also if you still don't understand you may want to re-evaluate why you play these kinds of games to begin with.. also check out the elder dragon battles and read up on Orr

    Was Orr not just a giant zone with max level dynamic events? The same exact thing you've been doing the entire game? And with level scaling, I don't see how Orr is any different than any other zone.

    you can watch all my videos I posted on the topic I could give you another 500 examples but you obviously made up your mind about what you think is "endgame" in GW2 so no point in me continueing to feed this discussion

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    Was Orr not just a giant zone with max level dynamic events? The same exact thing you've been doing the entire game? And with level scaling, I don't see how Orr is any different than any other zone.

    That's part of the point. The game doesn't change drastically at 80. It isn't a game that is split in two like World of Warcraft. The activities you do during your leveling experience are similar to the activities you do at max level.

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    have you even watched the video? they don't just say the whole game is endgame

    Yea I have. And yea they do.  They say you can do all of the things you did while leveling when you reach max level. You can grind skill points, exactly like you've been doing the entire game. Continuing to do dynamic events, the same you've been doing the entire game.

    i'd read this http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/360077/page/1 also if you still don't understand you may want to re-evaluate why you play these kinds of games to begin with.. also check out the elder dragon battles and read up on Orr

    Was Orr not just a giant zone with max level dynamic events? The same exact thing you've been doing the entire game? And with level scaling, I don't see how Orr is any different than any other zone.

    Isn't the point of the game is that it isn't bimodal like most mmorpgs?

  • yaoming36yaoming36 None of your damn business, INPosts: 189Member Uncommon

    Here's the thing. In traditional MMO from the moment you start playing the game, your goal is to reach the level cap asap so you can take part in the "fun" things at the end. The raids, the pvp, the epic armor etc etc.

     

    Guild Wars 2 doesn't believe in that, they want you to experience the raid, the pvp, the epic armor etc etc right from level 1. That's why you can start PvPing right after you finish the tutorial. That's why you can take part in epic boss fights at ~15. You enjoy and get rewarded for the journey not the destination. In games like WoW how often do you go back to lower levels to check out the new content without rolling a new toon? There won't ever be a problem like that in GW2.

    But that doesn't mean there's nothing to do at max level. There is something different about reading a wall of quest chat and killing the same 50 monsters that you did for the past 5 levels than with just running thru the world and finding NPCs to help out. Just last stress test, I was exploring when I heard a girl cry for help. Found her trapped underground, I jumped down and escorted her back to her family. I didn't have to read a wall of text from some NPCs just chilling by his hut telling me his daughter is missing, I actually experienced it. Sure at lower leveled, my DEs mostly consisted of helping out local farmers and similar non exciting NPCs. But once you start getting higher leveled, your actions reflect the fight against the dragons, taking on more and more epic DEs. Here is a DE around level ~50. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B-s9-rsBiU&feature=player_detailpage#t=591s If that ins't raidlike enough for you, then I don't know what is.

     

    If gear grind is your cup of tea, then this game does indeed have gear grind. The main difference is that your hundreds of hour spend grinding will get you awesome super duper looking armor, not faceroll 1 hit OP armor. Recently it was discovered that to make a legendary weapon you needed a item that costs 200 Skill Points. There's only 201 Skill Points in the game, so better get grinding at 80 :)

    You have WvWvW and sPvP. You have mini games. You have jumping puzzles. You have dungeons. You have ALL maps unlocked to you. You have crafting. You have Orr, basically MOBA like capture the temple type events. Really this is a huge raid like map where players fight for control over temples. Various routes to temple, land, air and see. It's different than any other map because it doesn't have any heart quests.

    I highly doubt that many people will have experienced the game to its full potential before they hit 80. GW2 has one of the best replayabiilty than any other game out there right now.

    You know when WoW first came out, people were saying that it has no grind because everything that you do relates back to a quest, that there is a story behind it. Well now quests like "Go kill 10 rats" are deemed grindy. 

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    So GW2 re-did half of the MMORPG. They changed the level experience from quest grinding, to dynamic event grinding.  But how much time did we really spend leveling? How much fun did you have during the leveling process of most games?

     

    I had a fucking blast.  In GW2 I wanted to slow down leveling.

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by yaoming36

     People will get bored of DEs eventually, then what? 

     

    Soo many of these threads and comments... yes you can get bored of DEs if you're doing the same one for a couple hours. Imagine this, you've just hit level 80. You can now go back to any zone and do any DE. If you've played in any of the betas/stress tests, you'll know there is a TON of DEs just in the starter zones. 

     

    And like devs have said, an area might have 100 DEs now, 3 years from now it might have 300. And because of level-scaling you can always go back to check out these new DEs. If you mean the whole concept of DEs then MAYBE you can get bored but they are so varied that you can always choose to go something more fun

    And there are thousands and thousands of varied quests in games like World of Warcraft and Rift. What is your point exactly?

    The point is that many of those quests basically become null and void once you get close to and hit level cap.  If you didn't do them on your way to cap, you probably aren't going to bother after cap, because they will just be boring one shotters.

     

    GW2 on the other hand solves that problem through level scaling.  That opens the whole world to you - even starter zones after you hit level 80.  Will you be stronger and more skilled with your character, thus making it easier than it was in your original starter zone?  Yes, most likely.  But, it won't be a grayed out one shot fest where you don't get any rewards to match your level.  You wil still get xp - to use toward skill points, and you will get rewards that are scaled to your actual level.

     

    This is in addition to the dungeons that you can run, the personal story that you can finish (if you haven't already), the titles and cosmetics you can grind if you want, PvP, WvWvW, crafting (if you haven't already maxed out every single crafting profession - because you can do that too), and of course, that fabled city of Orr.

     

    And, like yaoming said, the DEs will be updated regularly.  In fact, Anet has stated they will be updating them and cycling them in and out across all zones on a regular basis.  So you most likely won't have to repeat a single DE (although you can if you want) from launch until the first expansion comes out....and that's just with one character.

     

    Of course, this is all assuming you don't play 8 hours/day and 5-7 days/week.  In which case you should probably go back to making sausages.....

     

    One thing I haven't been able to figure out from the posts of yours that I've seen:  Have you even tried playing this game?

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member

    Endgame is taboo to me nowadays. It's only purpose is to trivialize everything that comes before it, gives elite wannabes fuel to say that anyone who doesn't like endgame doesn't know the real meaning of playing the game, that ENDGAME is the only important part, and you should feel ashamed for not being like them.

    And people wonder why they get bored so dam fast when they do nothing except their precious "ENDGAME"...

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    As opposed to "Yay! Gear grind forever!!!!!"?????

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    As opposed to "Yay! Gear grind forever!!!!!"?????

    This is why I asked for suggestions on re-doing it. I don't like the eternal gear grind either.  I do enjoy raiding however, with a structured group of players that takes tactics, planning, and coordination.  This is what GW2 lacks atm, please read the OP before responding.

  • Size-TwelveSize-Twelve Lansing, MIPosts: 494Member

    Ok this is just how I plan to play for one example of "endgame":


    • Level to 80
    • Finish personal Story
    • Go back to any interesting zones I missed looking for new DE's
    • Start 100% map completion hunt
    • Play WvW
    • Learn siege weapons, tactics, have fun
    • Try to help my server become competitive
    • Join Chef's guild and learn to cook
    • Become WvW commander
    • Start structured PvP
    • Run explorable dungeons to help guild farm for gear
    • Attain 100% map completion

    That will take me FOREVER. I probably won't get through that list until many expansions from now, and there will be even more to do at that point. All the "endgame" I need is already in game.

  • bookworm438bookworm438 Detroit, MIPosts: 647Member
    If you want OvR that requires a lot of tactics, dungeons are what you want. Granted we don't know what the events will be like at max level, we do know dungeons will be extremely hard.

    You have to employ a variety of tactics to take down explorer mode dungeon bosses and even trash mobs. With the added traps and puzzles, you actually have to think in GW2 dungeons. Is that what your looking for? If your looking for 20 man raids a la WoW, the closest you'll get is the DE system bosses.
  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    check out my sig in the Hot Tpoics thread is a good Q & A with the lead devs about "endgame" and continued content

    Saying the entire game is end-game isn't really saying anything at all. That's like telling WoW players, After you hit 85, you get to go back and do more quests! Yay! Quests forever!!!!

    As opposed to "Yay! Gear grind forever!!!!!"?????

    This is why I asked for suggestions on re-doing it. I don't like the eternal gear grind either.  I do enjoy raiding however, with a structured group of players that takes tactics, planning, and coordination.  This is what GW2 lacks atm, please read the OP before responding.

    I don't think it's possible to improve raiding because:

    1. If you increase the size of a raid too much, it becomes a mess and is very annoying to even attempt to coordinate unless everything in the instance is relatively easy (think WoW's city raids before the guards got overbuffed).
    2. On the flipside, if you shrink them down too much, you might as well just call them dungeons, which is exactly what GW2 dungeons are to some degree.
    Hell, I'd argue that raiding is nothing more than an overglorified dungeon, in which the elite compete against the other elite for the championship cup, and could generally care less what anyone below them do, the elite wannabes kiss their asses and follow in their shadow, trying to gain access to their exclusive club, all the while being demeaning and condescending to the less serious raiders and more casual community below them in general.
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