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5 reasons you may not Like GW2 (as read by a GW2 Fanboi)

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  • MadnessRealmMadnessRealm Montreal, QCPosts: 2,716Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by seridan
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

    By not different enough, I mean that, while the format is different, the content is the same. Yes, instead of having NPCs with a " ! " above their heads, everything is more "dynamic", the content of the dynamic event isn't actually all that different from the quests you'd get from an NPC. I guess you have a progression bar instead of a clear amount of kill/fetch/colllect numbers, but really, it's not something I'd consider to be different enough to interest players looking for something that's really different. At best they'll enjoy the honeymoon phase, but come back to reality quickly, as was the case for me. 

    The content is the same but the execution is completely different. You can play with others whenever you want without having a quest in your log, you can help others, participate in events together, without actually going through the hussle of "LFG". More importantly, the worlds doesn't revolve around every player individually, as someone wrote around here, in other MMOs players DO quests, in GW2 quests DO players, meaning, the world will continue to exist/evolve with or without player action, that's why it is "a living breathing world". The npcs will continue to the next event even if there is nobody around, the npcs will attack the town even if there is nobody around, and then everyone will feel the consequences. You are doing content that can be on any state, just started, almost finished or anywhere in-between, when a boss spawn you don't have to be there at the spawn time to participate in the fight, you don't need any prerequisities either. Also keep in mind that events are branching, something that had never been done before. The world changes depending on player action and is dynamic enough to move without player action. That's the huge difference

    The combat is basically the same as your typical MMORPG. You're still getting shot by heat-seeking projectiles until the end of he Earth. Individually, the skills are interesting, it's fun to play with the various gimmicks, but the very limiting nature of the Weapon Skill system breaks the fun and feels restricting. From my personal experience, I've always found only 2-3 of the skills I liked for each group of weapons, and of course they can't be changed. Yes you can change your non-weapon skills at will (provided you spent points in them) but having 5 of your "main" skills locked by your choice of weapon was quite a downer for me, especially when you only like half of them, but the weapons are necessary for the way you want to play. In that regard, I much preferred GW1's take on the skill system even though you couldn't change them unless you were in town.

    No. You aren't getting shot by heat-seeking projectiles. If you move out the way they will miss, if you move behind a wall, they will miss, if someone else moves in front of you, they will take the damage instead. It's not like the usual tab-targeting that allows projectiles to pass through players and obstacles. The projectiles have physics and a hit-box that allows them to target opponents. It's unlike a typical MMORPG where there is a "dice roll" to see if the projectile will hit the moment it leaves you, and then passes through walls or through players like they weren't even there. This doesn't happen in GW2 at all.

    On your first point, RIFT is essentially the same way if we're talking strictkly about it's Rift events.  But that's not exactly the point I was going at. I meant that, despite the very different format (or execution as you referred it) I still felt like I did the same tasks I've done in previous MMORPGs.  It's a bit like playing a game more than once. In the first run, everything surprises you, and it's fun. During the second and subsequent run, you can pretty much figure what's going to happen already, and that takes away from the game. Usually to combat that, games have replayability. In GW2 it translates into the wide variety of events, but I wish they had gone for more gimmicky stuff to really set the many events apart from each others. Probably one of the few things WAR did right with it's PQs was that, although similar in nature, they had all those gimmicky or humorous stuff that made them fun to do. Players lost interest in RIFT for the same reasons I lost interest in GW2, although the events were dynamic I still ended up doing relatively the same thing every time.

     

    On the last point, I can dodge melee attacks just fine. But when I played, no matter how I used obstacles or moved out of the way, I still couldn't avoid normal ranged attacks, they'd follow me and even turn around. Ranged skills I could dodge just fine, but the normal ranged attacks I couldn't. I should've been more specific on that point, my bad there.

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  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Purgatus

    Reason #1 - No Open World PvP

    However, there is one... thing that OPvP offers, and that is the uncertainty of the next confrontation. Not knowing when a fight could happen and could die at any minute is pretty awesome. GW2 does not really have that. When you PvP, its because you chose to and that takes something away from the experience.

     

    Not for me it dosent.

    I am a huge fan of optional PvP, and I personally find GW2's WvW set up to be an ideal hybrid between BGs and true open world ganking.

    I'm glad you are satisfied. I'll certainly see you on the field of battle as I think its perfect for me. But some players want the sensation that is being excised.

    I think it would be more correct to say that the aspect being taken away does not bother you, not that nothing is being taken away.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Ignorance is the enemy of wisdom though, and the wise man would not stop at "OK this game doesn't have exactly what I am looking for."

    The wise man would then ask, "OK what does this game have?"

    They may be enlightened.

    Its a game not the investigation into life the universe and everything and another example of fans elevating this game to unforseen heights in the MMO sphere. I'm one of those players that goes with the flow of any game I play and I play all class roles and learn to adapt but many a player doesn't so they will have a problem with GW2 as it doesn't offer classic class roles even though they may be still there in some abstract form, so Purgatus is correct in his examination of why certain players may not like GW2. Also many players time is at a premium and learning to like something is not on the agenda so having some form of EUREKA moment 100 hours in is not worth it if they cannot be pulled in from the get go. 

    Good thread Purgatus as your points are exactly to me why GW2 will not take the world by storm but will be loved by those who "get it" from the offset. One of the things that irritates me about MMORPG.com and many GW2 fans on this site is that if you prefer more traditional MMO gameplay you are somehow inferior and don't understand what GW2 is about and your OP highlights this nicely. Many playesr love to Raid, some love to grind out faction, some want to have a progression system that makes them stronger and stronger either through levels or gear, some want to have the thrill of real open world PvP (not me though I get that everyday of my working life image) and this is all good but these same players might find GW2 not to their liking and thats good too.

    I never said it was or it did.

    I am just saying it is foolish to not either try something for yourself or do your own research and make up your own mind.

  • OmnifishOmnifish LondonPosts: 616Member
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

    Yes, GW2 is a bit different from your typical MMORPG, but it's not different enough. That's why many won't like GW2.  ( I can already feel the glare of certain members typing furiously as they've read this).

     

    By not different enough, I mean that, while the format is different, the content is the same. Yes, instead of having NPCs with a " ! " above their heads, everything is more "dynamic", the content of the dynamic event isn't actually all that different from the quests you'd get from an NPC. I guess you have a progression bar instead of a clear amount of kill/fetch/colllect numbers, but really, it's not something I'd consider to be different enough to interest players looking for something that's really different. At best they'll enjoy the honeymoon phase, but come back to reality quickly, as was the case for me. 

    The first time's really fun. Just walking around and suddenly an event appears. It's fun, it's somewhat unexpected, you've got all these players joining in. Event's over, you resume to your activity and eventually another event pops out nearby. You clear it, everything's fun. But the pattern becomes increasingly more obvious, repetition starts to kick in, and considering we've done these very same type of quests/objectives for years and years already (Defend this NPC and kill the monsters along the way, there's an invasion  so go kill them!, etc) the novelty wears off very quickly and what initially seemed to be different really doesn't look all that different already.

    The combat is basically the same as your typical MMORPG. You're still getting shot by heat-seeking projectiles until the end of he Earth. Individually, the skills are interesting, it's fun to play with the various gimmicks, but the very limiting nature of the Weapon Skill system breaks the fun and feels restricting. From my personal experience, I've always found only 2-3 of the skills I liked for each group of weapons, and of course they can't be changed. Yes you can change your non-weapon skills at will (provided you spent points in them) but having 5 of your "main" skills locked by your choice of weapon was quite a downer for me, especially when you only like half of them, but the weapons are necessary for the way you want to play. In that regard, I much preferred GW1's take on the skill system even though you couldn't change them unless you were in town.

    I also felt restricted a lot in my many attempts at explorations. I had somewhat high expectations on this regard in particular, especially given players feedback. I'd see some areas that would catch my eyes and I wanted to check them out. I'd reach the area, try to climb from somewhere that seemed possible to climb only to be prevented by the blocky textures they have. I call them blocky textures because I'm not entirely sure how to call them, but it's when there's an invisible part that goes beyond the texture and jumping on that texture may push you on the side of make you appear as if you're floating in the air. In GW2's case it was mostly the former.  That tree with floating parts in the Sylvari area (forgot the name of the tree) is a great example of this, you can definitively climb it, and I've done it, but the blocky textures are soooo freaking annoying that it really takes out from the game and exploration.

     

     

    These are the reasons why I think many players might not like what GW2 offers, even if it's a genre they like.

     

    Hugely subjective posts like this are why I made this thread. You offer nothing substanative in here. Things like "not different enough" (I happen to think you just plain wrong) is far too subjective for it to be of value to the majority of readers. I concentrated specifically on things I could point to a yes its there, or no its not, like OPvP.

    Actually you didn't, you mentioned things you thought might be an issue and then said why. Who says that some people would have an issue with GW2 endgame progression? Oh yes, you did so it must be valid then. What should he have done? Headered every point he wanted to make?, so

    POINT 6: RIGID WEAPON SKILLS

    Please don't get into a, 'facts', argument with anyone, it may derail what I thought was a well thought out thread idea.

    This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

  • CcDohlCcDohl Atlanta, GAPosts: 65Member
    Originally posted by Purgatus I don't mind ambushing and the like, its the fighting another player 20 levels below you that I hate. It's sad and pathetic.

    However, there is one glorious thing that OPvP offers, and that is the uncertainty of the next confrontation. Not knowing when a fight could happen and could die at any minute is pretty awesome. GW2 does not really have that. When you PvP, its because you chose to and that takes something away from the experience.

    Why do people always say that about open world pvp? Why must ganking be seen as indicative of some personal flaw in the ganker? It's this kind of impotent crying that the ganked party uses to comfort itself, which I would hope that most grow out of by the time they hit max level. "Oh, he ganked me, he must live in his mother's basement," No, son, he ganked you because it's a pvp server and that's what happens. It's not sad or pathetic; it's just part of the game.

    My bet is that you'll say something similar about players in GW2 who beat you consistently. Oh, he only beats me all the time because he plays all day or he always brings friends or he uses the terrain in an interesting way. It's just the mindset of a sore loser.

    In addition, that view of ganking totally contradicts your positives in an opvp game. Power imbalance is one of the biggest parts of the unpredictability of world pvp. Some of the most fun I have had is with several low level characters trying to take on a higher level one, or even beating an enemy in pvp when outmatched. Sure, it is rare that you can deal with a ganker on your own, but there are always solutions to any pvp problem, and it usually involves more pvp.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Ignorance is the enemy of wisdom though, and the wise man would not stop at "OK this game doesn't have exactly what I am looking for."

    The wise man would then ask, "OK what does this game have?"

    They may be enlightened.

    Its a game not the investigation into life the universe and everything and another example of fans elevating this game to unforseen heights in the MMO sphere. I'm one of those players that goes with the flow of any game I play and I play all class roles and learn to adapt but many a player doesn't so they will have a problem with GW2 as it doesn't offer classic class roles even though they may be still there in some abstract form, so Purgatus is correct in his examination of why certain players may not like GW2. Also many players time is at a premium and learning to like something is not on the agenda so having some form of EUREKA moment 100 hours in is not worth it if they cannot be pulled in from the get go. 

    Good thread Purgatus as your points are exactly to me why GW2 will not take the world by storm but will be loved by those who "get it" from the offset. One of the things that irritates me about MMORPG.com and many GW2 fans on this site is that if you prefer more traditional MMO gameplay you are somehow inferior and don't understand what GW2 is about and your OP highlights this nicely. Many playesr love to Raid, some love to grind out faction, some want to have a progression system that makes them stronger and stronger either through levels or gear, some want to have the thrill of real open world PvP (not me though I get that everyday of my working life image) and this is all good but these same players might find GW2 not to their liking and thats good too.

    I never said it was or it did.

    I am just saying it is foolish to not either try something for yourself or do your own research and make up your own mind.

     

    Well it would have been better you said it like that in the first place as it came over as mucho elitest.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Exactly.

    Ignorance is the enemy of wisdom though...

     

    Really? Maybe believe that the man that knows he knows nothing is the wisest of all.

     

    Socrates?

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Exactly.

    Ignorance is the enemy of wisdom though...

     

    Really? Maybe believe that the man that knows he knows nothing is the wisest of all.

     

    Socrates?

     Bill and Ted.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member
    Originally posted by Omnifish
    *snip*

    Actually you didn't, you mentioned things you thought might be an issue and then said why. Who says that some people would have an issue with GW2 endgame progression? Oh yes, you did so it must be valid then. What should he have done? Headered every point he wanted to make?, so

    POINT 6: RIGID WEAPON SKILLS

    Please don't get into a, 'facts', argument with anyone, it may derail what I thought was a well thought out thread idea.

    I never mentioned the word facts. EVER. I pointed out that there is a difference between highly subjective things such as "this gets old fast" as far less subjective things such as inclusion of Open World PvP.

    If you seriously are asking who has a problem with endgame progression, I sugest you you spend some time looking over the myriad of threads on this topic alone.

     

  • MadnessRealmMadnessRealm Montreal, QCPosts: 2,716Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm
    ...

    Hugely subjective posts like this are why I made this thread. You offer nothing substanative in here. Things like "not different enough" (I happen to think you just plain wrong) is far too subjective for it to be of value to the majority of readers. I concentrated specifically on things I could point to a yes its there, or no its not, like OPvP.

    I'll start by saying that there is no such thing as an objective opinion, it's an oxymoron. The whole premise of your thread, starting from the title itself, is enough an indicator to see that it is subjective and based purely on a personal opinion. Whether that opinion is shared by a majority of readers does not make it more or less subjective, nor does it make it more true or wrong. An uninformed opinion can be shared by a majority of people as well, but does not make it more true. I'm not saying this is the case here though. (Put this part in bold to make sure it's seen before some members jumps at their keyboard, although it may already be too late for some already)

     

    Also, saying whether or not a feature is in the game in a subjective post, does not make it more objective. Here's an example:

    Reason 6 : Freaking sharks with freaking laser beams attached to their freaking heads.

    I love freaking sharks with freaking laser beams attached to their freaking heads. sadly GW2 only has Giant Sharks.

     

    Of course what I've just written is plain silly (Yes, it's from Austin Powers), but it still falls under the red highlighted part of the quote, and what the "majority of readers" value is entirely subjective to them. You listed reasons that YOU believe may cause players not to like GW2, hence it is entirely subjective. It goes without saying that your OP would be completely destroyed by readers if you were making things up entirely, so backing your points with actual features or ideology that are in-game or not is an obvious thing to do, but it does not make your point more or less subjective. An OPvP enthusiast could very well enjoy GW2 even though it has no such feature, which is why your thread title is "5 reasons you may not like GW2 (as read by a GW2 Fanboi" as opposed to  "5 reasons players don't like GW2 (as read by a GW2 Fanboi)". Whether a feature can be found in a game or not, and whether a player may or may not enjoy a game because of it, is mere speculation based on a personal opinion.

    Which is not to say that I disagree with your OP by the way, but I disagree on your claims that it's not as subjective as my post.

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  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm
    *snip*

    You're right when you say that no opinion can be free of subjectivity. That was not the point. What you posted was a great deal more sujective than my original post. That was my only point.

    I can tell there are lots of things you don't like about the game, and hey, thats you right. I posted this specifically in contrast to posts like yours, which I thought was far too subjective. I may never be a completely objective poster, but I can make the attempt.

    To me, being objective is about looking past your own conceptions of how things are, and attempting to be as neutral as possible. I feel that my points did that far more than yours.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Exactly.

    Ignorance is the enemy of wisdom though...

     

    Really? Maybe believe that the man that knows he knows nothing is the wisest of all.

     

    Socrates?

     Bill and Ted.

     

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Exactly.

    Ignorance is the enemy of wisdom though...

     

    Really? Maybe believe that the man that knows he knows nothing is the wisest of all.

     

    Socrates?

     Bill and Ted.

     

     Whoa.

    Man I loved those movies :).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Exactly.

    Ignorance is the enemy of wisdom though...

     

    Really? Maybe believe that the man that knows he knows nothing is the wisest of all.

     

    Socrates?

     Bill and Ted.

     

     Whoa.

    Man I loved those movies :).

     

    It was all down hill after that for Keanu, image

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • KniknaxKniknax LeicesterPosts: 567Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TemperHoof

    Partner healing still exists in Guild Wars 2, just the way to do is really different.

    For instance, if you wanna heal and ally as an Elementalist you have some options. Lets say your friend is within range and is hurting bad!

    With Arcane Evasion on, you can switch to Water Attunement and dodge toward your ally. By landing on your alley, you will produce a heal at his feet. Follow up by using your Glyph of Harmony -- you will share the Regeneration with your ally. If you spected Cantrips of Glyphs to share more Regeneration, pop additional utility to increase the heal and Regeneration duration.

    Pop into Earth to give him/her Protection, then quickly switch back to Water again to produce another heal.

    If you are using dagger, target your ally with Cone of Cold to give 2000+ heal.

    Damn, see now that sounds fun.

    "When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright

  • rdrpappyrdrpappy Hamilton, OHPosts: 325Member

    It's the people that played GW that ruined it for mmorpg fans, GW2 may be a decent game. I will wait to play it to see all these sandbox features everyone has been going on about on these forums, or the lack of an endgame and world class open pvp.

    With those kind of claims I have to see it first hand, I wont let the over rated, self served LAN, lobby based, adolescent mess that was filled with bottom feeders ruin the promise of this ground breaking sandbox/themepark hybrid.

  • IncomparableIncomparable KuwaitPosts: 872Member

    Did Gw2 really remove trinity? Or is it because every class can become any profession and thus when all in one package can be accessed, its considered removing restrcitions.

    So there are no healers, or heal abilties - or professions that make healing abilties better.

    There is no gear that makes tanking better, or proffessions that mitigate damage better, or tanking abilties.

    If not, then its all damage abilties... however I find that improbable, and therefore I would say by having and therefore allowing for certain proffessions to be tankier than others, then there are tanks, and if some can heal or heal better than others, then there are healers... so the trinity still exists.

    I am not following Gw2, but just from trying to understand it, it makes no sense to completely remove the trinity. It essentially removes the depth of the classes since realistically there should be tanking proffessions, damage proffessions, and possibly a buff proffession- when i say realistically I am talking about real roles on an ancient battlefield and not having healers actively heal players in RL ofc is not realistc but also GW2 is a place of magic... so healers should be in... again, then that means there is a trinity, or no class/ profession identity as a trade off. If they did that, and dont have a more sand box approach to the game, then I can see that being a shortcoming to the game.

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  • eGumballeGumball New York, NYPosts: 151Member
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by eGumball

    Reason #1 - No Open World PvP That´s right but we may have in the futre if the story-line changes with a new expansion.

    Reason #2 - Sense of progression Grinding has been out there in the MMO-industry for years and 90% of people is seeing this as a big possitive thing, GW2 brings to the genre.

    Reason #3 - No Traditional Endgame The Endgame in GW2 is nearly better than ever single title in the industry so nothing to say here.

    Reason #4 - Some Traditional Roles are Gone Another thing that has got more possitive comments than negative.

    Reason #5 - Cash Shop Well, as long as it is not pay to win, who cares. Otherwise, P2P games have cash-shops nowadays, where you '' MUST '' pay money for the nice looking mout and dress, so -_-

     

    All in all, Guild Wars 2, even if it is bad, is the biggest and the best title in the MMO-industry right now. It may also take kinda long time for a new title to take this spot.

    Weither you see these things as positive or negative is up to you. These are real issues to a lot of gamers even if 90% (I don't think that 90% of gamers could agree on the color of the sky) of people are on board. I happen to think that these things are not terrible, but This is not meant for me or players who like the game. It's meant for MMO players, new to the game that are looking for key elements in their MMO's and GW2 may or may not have them.

    I encourage everyone to look into it for yourself regardless of what you read here, but even us fanboi's need to be objective when it comes to what this game DOES NOT offer.

    '' what this game DOES NOT offer '' are kinda wrong words. It should have been '' what path the company did choose ''. These things CAN´T be in Guild Wars 2 because the company have decided to take another path: '' play for fun '' instead of '' grind, making the game a job '' and win with skill instead of win with gear etc.

    The majorty of the MMO-Community is praising Guild Wars 2 for these changes to the genre and this is what the company wanted. They can´t make everyone happy, but choosing the right path is really important and the path they have choosen is the '' right '' path for the majorty of the players. This is why, Guild Wars 2 is considered as the best title in the industry nowadays.

    There´s no game and there won´t be any game that will make everyone happy, however, Guild Wars 2´s goal was to make the '' most people '' happy and that´s what happening right now. I can´t really call this as '' things not offered '' or '' things that GW2 is lacking ''. It is more like '' things that different people may like or not like because of taste ''.

    Since the majorty are liking these things, I can say that ArenaNet is a wise company.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,943Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Incomparable

    Did Gw2 really remove trinity? Or is it because every class can become any profession and thus when all in one package can be accessed, its considered removing restrcitions.

    So there are no healers, or heal abilties - or professions that make healing abilties better.

    There is no gear that makes tanking better, or proffessions that mitigate damage better, or tanking abilties.

    If not, then its all damage abilties... however I find that improbable, and therefore I would say by having and therefore allowing for certain proffessions to be tankier than others, then there are tanks, and if some can heal or heal better than others, then there are healers... so the trinity still exists.

    I am not following Gw2, but just from trying to understand it, it makes no sense to completely remove the trinity. It essentially removes the depth of the classes since realistically there should be tanking proffessions, damage proffessions, and possibly a buff proffession- when i say realistically I am talking about real roles on an ancient battlefield and not having healers actively heal players in RL ofc is not realistc but also GW2 is a place of magic... so healers should be in... again, then that means there is a trinity, or no class/ profession identity as a trade off. If they did that, and dont have a more sand box approach to the game, then I can see that being a shortcoming to the game.

    Easy to understand like this: there is a trinity, but every single player/profession switches between the 3 roles of the trinity dynamically depending on what is happening to them from moment to moment. 

    Old school trinity, player A is trinity role A, player B is trinity role B, player 3 is trinity role C.  in GW 2 all 3 players play Roles ABC dynamically.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • dzoni87dzoni87 BelgradePosts: 541Member
    Originally posted by Incomparable

    Did Gw2 really remove trinity? Or is it because every class can become any profession and thus when all in one package can be accessed, its considered removing restrcitions.

    So there are no healers, or heal abilties - or professions that make healing abilties better.

    There is no gear that makes tanking better, or proffessions that mitigate damage better, or tanking abilties.

    If not, then its all damage abilties... however I find that improbable, and therefore I would say by having and therefore allowing for certain proffessions to be tankier than others, then there are tanks, and if some can heal or heal better than others, then there are healers... so the trinity still exists.

    I am not following Gw2, but just from trying to understand it, it makes no sense to completely remove the trinity. It essentially removes the depth of the classes since realistically there should be tanking proffessions, damage proffessions, and possibly a buff proffession- when i say realistically I am talking about real roles on an ancient battlefield and not having healers actively heal players in RL ofc is not realistc but also GW2 is a place of magic... so healers should be in... again, then that means there is a trinity, or no class/ profession identity as a trade off. If they did that, and dont have a more sand box approach to the game, then I can see that being a shortcoming to the game.

    They didnt removed trinity as a whole. One can say that even some kind of trinity is still present, but with whole lot of new mechanics. Think of it as a DnD 'pen & paper' combat or old Diablo dungeon runs or i dont know... You still have a "tanky" classes and "healing" abilities, but combo mechanics and skill matters more than roles...

    I advice you to search more upon this via various sites. Its a little bit complex but understoodable

    Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
    Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Exactly.

    Ignorance is the enemy of wisdom though...

     

    Really? Maybe believe that the man that knows he knows nothing is the wisest of all.

     

    Socrates?

     Bill and Ted.

     

    Which would really be more my speed... :)

  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member
    Originally posted by Incomparable

    Did Gw2 really remove trinity? Or is it because every class can become any profession and thus when all in one package can be accessed, its considered removing restrcitions.

    So there are no healers, or heal abilties - or professions that make healing abilties better.

    There is no gear that makes tanking better, or proffessions that mitigate damage better, or tanking abilties.

    If not, then its all damage abilties... however I find that improbable, and therefore I would say by having and therefore allowing for certain proffessions to be tankier than others, then there are tanks, and if some can heal or heal better than others, then there are healers... so the trinity still exists.

    I am not following Gw2, but just from trying to understand it, it makes no sense to completely remove the trinity. It essentially removes the depth of the classes since realistically there should be tanking proffessions, damage proffessions, and possibly a buff proffession- when i say realistically I am talking about real roles on an ancient battlefield and not having healers actively heal players in RL ofc is not realistc but also GW2 is a place of magic... so healers should be in... again, then that means there is a trinity, or no class/ profession identity as a trade off. If they did that, and dont have a more sand box approach to the game, then I can see that being a shortcoming to the game.

    Without derailing the thread, ths short version is this:

    There are healing abilities in the game, and there are absorbing type moves.

    When it is said that there is no healer, what is intended is to say you cannot perform the "Main Healer" role of continually casting a heal on, say, a tank while he is getting hit. Or more to the point, it won't get you very far.

    Likewise, you have no aggro manipulation abilities, and damn few mitigation abilities. Bosses hit like Semi-Trucks, so tanking is not going to be as passive as it is with the Holy Trinity.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Exactly.

    Ignorance is the enemy of wisdom though...

     

    Really? Maybe believe that the man that knows he knows nothing is the wisest of all.

     

    Socrates?

     Bill and Ted.

     

     Whoa.

    Man I loved those movies :).

     

    It was all down hill after that for Keanu, image

     You got that right lol.

    The funny thing is that Keanu is always made fun of for being an airhead, but I bet that most of the people who enjoy those jokes never even saw the movies that they come from :).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • RoybeRoybe Star, NCPosts: 420Member
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by TemperHoof
    Originally posted by Purgatus

    Reason #1 - No Open World PvP

    I've always hated OPvP myself as I see it as the refuge of gankers. And I HATE gankers. I don't mind ambushing and the like, its the fighting another player 20 levels below you that I hate. It's sad and pathetic.

    However, there is one glorious thing that OPvP offers, and that is the uncertainty of the next confrontation. Not knowing when a fight could happen and could die at any minute is pretty awesome. GW2 does not really have that. When you PvP, its because you chose to and that takes something away from the experience.

     

    I just wanna point out that there IS Open World PVP. ArenaNet created a seperate MMO called The Mists which houses it, a lot of people call it WvW. Roughly the size of DC Universe Online at launch, The Mists is a sizable collection of zones with its own ruleset. The PvE game Tyria does not have Open World PVP, yet Guild Wars 2 as a game still does have Open World PVP.

    The difference between OPvP and the mists is choice. If you go to the mists, its because you made a conscious chioce. In OPvP, you could be completeing a quest and a rival player could kill you when you did not intend to do any PvP. This will attract some, and repel others. Weither you like it or not, the chioce is yours.

    But in any MMO, you make the same choice.  Either you choose to roll on a PvP server OR you knowingly purchased a game that only has OPvP gameplay.  In any of the above choices you decided that you can be killed by another character.  There are PvE objectives in WvW, btw.  You can go kill people trying to finish those DE's if you want.

     

  • Enok4TwunniEnok4Twunni Joshua, TXPosts: 207Member
    Originally posted by Purgatus

    So, anyone familiar with my name around these parts knows that I am a die-hard fan of GW2. I think its the best MMO I've ever played. But no game is completely without problems, and no game can appeal to everyone. I've seen a lot of vitriolic threads about what GW2 does wrong, or how GW2 sucks because it lacks feature X or Y. I thought I would post some of the reasons I feel some players will not like GW2 from the opposite perspective.

    So without further Delay...(and In no particular order)

     

    Reason #1 - No Open World PvP

    I've always hated OPvP myself as I see it as the refuge of gankers. And I HATE gankers. I don't mind ambushing and the like, its the fighting another player 20 levels below you that I hate. It's sad and pathetic.

    However, there is one glorious thing that OPvP offers, and that is the uncertainty of the next confrontation. Not knowing when a fight could happen and could die at any minute is pretty awesome. GW2 does not really have that. When you PvP, its because you chose to and that takes something away from the experience.

     

    Reason #2 - Sense of progression

    GW2 does a lot of strange things with progression. Firstly, its a linear progression. getting from 15 to 16 will take the same amount of time as getting from 79 to 80. This means some players are going to blaze to 80 in no time flat. Level in GW2 is not so much about getting that next skill or upgrade as it is about getting acess to more and more content. When you are level 80, the whole world becomes playable due to the down-scaleing of content.

    The other factor is no gear grinding, or at least, no heavy grinding. Stats remain easy to get. You will be grinding instead for comsetics.

    Other games pace this out so that you feel accomplished in reaching a new level of power. Your amount of strength is determined more by how much time you put into the game than how familiar you are with the games systems (though that knowledge certainly doesnt hurt!) Some players want to know that if they have been playing for years, they can crush the newest players. They paid more after all! In GW2, a new player could absolutly destroy you if they know what they are doing when playing sPvP for example.

    Without a much bigger mechanical advantage for progression, many players will feel like they are just spinning in circles never making any progress.

     

    Reason #3 - No Traditional Endgame

    MMO's have taught us that the best content is at the end when all the characters tools are complete. They have gotten the last few super bad ass abilities, and great gear, and are now ready to take on the REALLY challanging content. This requires teamwork and time for the biggest of fights.

    GW2 takes those experiences and doles them out over the course of the game. You get acces to your skills early on, and the big world event DE's feel much like the big raids (with less co-ordination.)

    Tougher content is certainly towards the end, with the continent of Orr, but the real benefit of being max level is that you can go to any area and play that content.

    Many players will get to the end of the game and really only have the dungeons to mess with as they do not wish to go to low level content, especially after doing such hugely heroic and epic things towards the end of the game, and get very bored of the lack of content.

     

    Reason #4 - Some Traditional Roles are Gone

    With the removal of the so called "Holy Trinity" two very traditional roles are gone. The Tank and the Healer. Anet didnt like the playstyles they were based on, but that doesnt mean YOU dont. I know plenty of gamers that like to heal. Its important, easy to see your contribution, and very low dexerity. Tanking is a lot more complicated, but the point is you will not be able to do either role anymore (Im sure some will debate it).

    There is no aggro powers in the game and Dungeon bosses hit exremly hard so traditional tanking is gone. You are not capable of keeping a teamate alive under the barrage of a boss for an extended period of time by focusing all heals on him anymore so traditional healing is gone.

    I highly advise you look at why you like those roles. You may find you can still fufill them in GW2, but if you are a hard core Tank or Healer and love that gameplay style, GW2 will disappoint you.

     

    Reason #5 - Cash Shop

    I have seen enough implementations of cash shops in games to say that I think GW2's implementation looks to be ok. Nevertheless, paying for bag slots, character slots, xp boosts, etc. will feel like extorting money for some players. If you really hate cash shops in any form, this will not be any different.

     

    The Mists is open world PvP in which you can level from 1-80. Progression is fine the way it is. In WoW they made it harder and harder to reach the next level. I didn't feel accomplished when I got to the next level but rather relieved and then daunted by the fact that it was gonna take even longer to get to the next level. Let's keep WoW as the example because that's where I spent the most of my MMO time. From 79 to 80 it took way too long, the time went up more and more after this. The majority of the quests to get to the next level where generic gather quests that didn't change the world in any way. This to me was extremely annoying. I'm glad that it now takes roughly the same time for each level in GW 2. Also, I didn't feel powerful or better because I could go pwn low levels, in fact I never bothered fighting lower levels. I see WoW as gear based, and GW 2 as skill based. Raiding in WoW was all about sectioned fighting. Ranged DPS stood in certain places, tanks and off tanks tanked the bosses. Melee DPS stood behind bosses. Healers stayed at range. Bosses didn't level up based on the amount of players fighting the boss like they do in GW 2. In fact bosses use more skills if there are more people fighting them. In WoW you can't be challenged when running through Deadmines, unless it's Heroic. In GW 2 you can get gear for your current level even if you're doing content 40 levels lower than you because of the down leveling system. I think too many people coming from WoW ( like I did) are in the mindset that progression is about hardcore raiding and stats on gear. That's not progression, that's carrot chasing. If traditional endgame is what WoW offers, then I don't want to ever see "traditional" endgame ever again. It's gone from being about building community and having fun to elitist gearscore farmers. When I left WoW about a year ago, there was a wide gap between casual players and hardcore raiders, so much so that people would get kicked from groups and yelled at because they didn't understand boss fights or have a high enough gear score. I'm glad ANet is focused on building community and not elitists. Traditional roles are gone in that you don't have to be just one role. You can now play all roles with almost all classes, although an Ele and a Guardian would excel at group heals more than a Thief or Warrior would. Due to the fact I'm about to go to dinner, I won't comment on the cash shop other than it's good to support devs that give us a buy to play non subscription based game. GW 1 had it and it was fine.

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