Originally posted by Salio69 (...)the unemployeed who "work" for them.
(...) those who live with relatives and got no job.
This baffles me, why assume that someone selling item at RMAH has no job and no income? You play, you find nice items you don't have any use for(or simply don't want to) and you sell them at RMAH. It's all about luck(or bad luck as finding good but useless items for your class is frustrating). Done this thousand times, only difference was there was no RMAH, only gold AH one. I don't even count items that got obsolete cause I didn't need gold and wanted to save them for later or I stopped playing game.
because at the end of the day, its those people who will benefit the most. they will make giant bot farms, each sitting on its seperate VM, with its own IP, farming endless as the owner shifts through all of them to make sure they are functioning properly and to respond to any GM PMs.
Sure, but what does it have to do with RMAH? In every popular enough MMO you have those people not only botting/hacking and farming stuff but also spamming chats and hacking people that use their services accounts. I guess they can use RMAH(although they actually prefer not to as it's easier to track them) but that doesn't make their behavior more legal and they are banned in D3 like in every other MMO. Unless you go for conspiracy theory that Blizzard works with "them"...
Lol, really, the RMAH is a great thing. It works for Diablo3. It really isn't hard to clear Act 1 inferno with very cheap gear you get of the GOLD AH.
If players want to spend real money to advance then that's their choice.
Saying the RMAH will devolve into buy to win for games that implement it for things like I said in the first post is like saying games with similar things in their cash shops will devolve in to buy to win.
There is a lot of potential for RMAH. Yeah, it's gonna be a shit fest when pvp goes live in D3, since players can buy the best gear with real money... don't like it don't play it.
Care to share why it's such a bad thing besides the flawed assumption that it will devolve into buy to win? Keep in mind with what I suggested, ANY player can get the items traded through the RMAH whether or not they spend real money.
So your main reasoning for RMAH is that since it won't hurt me, it doesn't matter if it's implemented. Guess what, it will hurt us all as gamers.
I already said that Blizz is manipulating drop rates (hence the buff in some patch a while ago). That alone is undeniable proof of how YOUR RMAH will affect MY gameplay.
Then you continue your reasoning and state it's a flawed assumption that it will devolve in p2w. How is it flawed? Just take a look at 10 years ago. Now if I told you at the time in 10 years we would have cash shops like those in Age of Conan and Runes of magic (aka pay 2 win), you would laugh at me telling me im a stupid fool.
Now 10 years later, runes of magic seems quite acceptable, pay to win starts to become the norm (although most gamers still frown upon). Suddenly, industry giant Blizz introduces this RMAH, where you can buy gear. You don't think other companies will pick this up (since diablo 3 sold 10 million copies)? You don't see how it will become acceptible FOR COMPANIES to do this?
Basically, because blizz did it it will be a more conventional thing to do. It will be forced down our throats and pay 2 win is inevitable.
PS: On your statement about how hacks and bots will be controllable. Even the pentagon was not immune for hacks. Imagine how a game like diablo 3 will become a target for hackers once real money gets involved.
There's about a bajillion online companies that handle money everyday. I guess they should stop because they can be hacked?
I don't even see how you came to the statement that it won't affect you. It will since it's in the game. Don't like it, don't play it... very simple.
Things that let me make a profit while doing something I love hurts me... hmmm... interesting.
I get it, you don't like the RMAH... moving on.
You still ignore the point how this will be the new standard for ALL games. There is no choice and there is no moving on. I can't see how you can enjoy being a tool for blizzard unless you're on their payroll.
So yes, please hide from all the reasonable arguments brought by anti-RMAH people. Please do ignore it. It only shows that RMAH is bad for us the consumers and how willingly some people give up their rights to defend a nameless company who wouldn't give a crap if you got hacked. You're just a moneybag to them.
The RMAH is a terrible thing...please do not support it. I will explain why it is terrible by attacking some of the popular arguments for the RMAH.
1. Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!
Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress? And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH? The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER. Do you not see a problem here? This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure.
Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind. If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money. So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.
2. The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!
There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game. This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases. Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH. And why is this unlikely? Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.
The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game. This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job. Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.
The key is that finally a player, like me, can SELL items. And this will avoid gold inflation, because the currency is real and pecked to real value in the world.
It's pretty far from a real economy since Blizzard control all loot drops, and I believe there are alleged reports of those drops being manipulated by Blizzard to maximise their own end return.
I'd love to see the RMAH idea properly and thoroughly investigated by those more qualified than MMO review sites.
It is real ... because real money is used. I didn't say blizz cannot manipulate the market. In fact, OTHER real money markets (like stock & bonds) can be manipulated too.
The point is that the value is real, and NOT subject to arbitrary inflation as in a gold economy.
Now, Blizz took $1 for each transaction. Since they are not taking a percentage, there is no point in manipulation the prices. If they want money, all they need to maximize is the number of transactions.
The problem still exists, it's just turned on its head.
Gold inflation happens because the economy is constantly injected with gold from players acquiring it from mobs, quests, selling to NPCs, etc. What happens is that the rate that gold supply increases exceeds the rate that tradeable good supply increases, so we wind up with gold inflation. The comparatively rate items wind up costing more of the compartively common gold.
All the RMAH does is basically set the currency supply to real money so that it inflates very slowly (in game terms). BUT IT DOES NOTHING TO CHANGE THE GOOD SUPPLY PROBLEM. The economy can STILL suffer if the supply of goods increases too rapidly. And in D3, with no soulbound items, this is definitely the case.
So instead of inflation, you will see deflation. Items will get progressively cheaper and cheaper in real money terms as the supply of items increases rapidly, but the supply of currency (real money) stays relatively consistent.
My point is that the RMAH does nothing to solve the progressive economic problems we see in games. These problems can be solved, but they will need to be solved by the dev actually creating a game that is designed to have a sustainable economy, with things like item decay etc...not by just tying currency to real money.
The RMAH is a terrible thing...please do not support it. I will explain why it is terrible by attacking some of the popular arguments for the RMAH.
1. Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!
Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress? And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH? The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER. Do you not see a problem here? This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure.
Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind. If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money. So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.
2. The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!
There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game. This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases. Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH. And why is this unlikely? Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.
The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game. This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job. Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.
I started this topic about mostly a commodities RMAH which pretty everyone in the thread arguing against an RMAH has completely ignored.
Think of how much time it takes to get mats for enchanting/jewelcrafting/alchemy in WoW... that's right, not long at all. But regardless, people still don't want to do it. This is also not a design flaw. These small activities are part of what makes an MMO an MMO.
Things like enchants gems and pots are mostly what end game players spend their gold on. So there are a few scenarios of what would happen if these things were put into an RMAH... Farmers would farm them to hell making them worth almost nothing... This could be solved by a diminishing returns system. And the other is that there aren't enough to go around, making them worth more than they should be... could be solved by a max price value. Keep in mind these things could also be sold for gold, made yourself, etc... the RMAH isn't the only source, which is infinitely better than a cash shop.
Everyone here is stuck soley on D3's RMAH. Which is pretty much pay to win since there's end game gear sold on it.
BTW, I spend an hour or two a day ENJOYING D3, I still have yet to beat it on inferno. There's no slave laboring/farming going on. Yeah, I like finding good loot.. does that make me a farmer? I dunno you decide.
it was called Station Exchange, later named Live Gamer
-- players could sell their characters, gear, gold
it was used on the mmos Everquest 2, Vanguard on select servers
SOE phased it out last year due to lack in popularity
Totally forgot about that, actually the only time I've ever bought gold. I think things would have gone differently if they didn't limit it to one server.
There are only two parties that profit (money wise) from RMAH. The company that operates the RMAH and a very small minority of people (I do not call them players intentionally) who use the RMAH as part of their job to make money. It's business for them. They don't play the game, they don't care if the gameplay is fun or not. They work the RMAH for profit.
Personally, I don't need a second job. I want to play a game and not work the RMAH. All those players who think they can make a profit of a RMAH will be disappointed. Unless they change their game time into work time.
There will be players who try to make a living off it. I don't see how anyone is forcing you to make money in the game. If you don't want to try and profit off it then don't.
Why do you get so uptight about it? The game is still there to be played for fun if that's all you care about.
I'm not even talking about D3. I'm talking about the possibility of RMAH in more games.
That's the nice thing about gaming. You can choose how you want to play.
If you dont see this then imo, you are blind to the inflation that these Pro-AH traders are causing in the ingame economy.
I played over 100 hours in D3 and still loving it.....but when i get stuck (by that i mean that the gear that drops for me is not enough to keep advancing through the game) i come to the conclusion that i dont have the money needed to buy anything (on the gold AH that is) good out there. Why is that?.....the inflation that these RMT have caused is even noticable in the gold AH.
I'll explain: i need an item to advance (not top notch, just something that keeps me going), the price of these are between 2 MILLION gold and about 30 MILLION gold......i have in those 100+ hours just about 500K (yeah, as in thousands not millions) so if i want to buy something i have to go and buy gold of the real money AH for about 2,5€ for a million gold....so if i need a cool 10 MILLION (for 1 or maybe 2 items???) it costs me 25€ OR i can keep grinding the money (as the casual gamer that i am) and keep farming my own gold for the next 2 years so i can finally buy the item i need to advance.
Now you tell me that the real money traders and the Gold AH are two different things......so imho you sir, are blind to only that what you WANT to see.
There are only two parties that profit (money wise) from RMAH. The company that operates the RMAH and a very small minority of people (I do not call them players intentionally) who use the RMAH as part of their job to make money. It's business for them. They don't play the game, they don't care if the gameplay is fun or not. They work the RMAH for profit.
Personally, I don't need a second job. I want to play a game and not work the RMAH. All those players who think they can make a profit of a RMAH will be disappointed. Unless they change their game time into work time.
There will be players who try to make a living off it. I don't see how anyone is forcing you to make money in the game. If you don't want to try and profit off it then don't.
Why do you get so uptight about it? The game is still there to be played for fun if that's all you care about.
I'm not even talking about D3. I'm talking about the possibility of RMAH in more games.
That's the nice thing about gaming. You can choose how you want to play.
If you dont see this then imo, you are blind to the inflation that these Pro-AH traders are causing in the ingame economy.
I played over 100 hours in D3 and still loving it.....but when i get stuck (by that i mean that the gear that drops for me is not enough to keep advancing through the game) i come to the conclusion that i dont have the money needed to buy anything (on the gold AH that is) good out there. Why is that?.....the inflation that these RMT have caused is even noticable in the gold AH.
I'll explain: i need an item to advance (not top notch, just something that keeps me going), the price of these are between 2 MILLION gold and about 30 MILLION gold......i have in those 100+ hours just about 500K (yeah, as in thousands not millions) so if i want to buy something i have to go and buy gold of the real money AH for about 2,5€ for a million gold....so if i need a cool 10 MILLION (for 1 or maybe 2 items???) it costs me 25€ OR i can keep grinding the money (as the casual gamer that i am) and keep farming my own gold for the next 2 years so i can finally buy the item i need to advance.
Now you tell me that the real money traders and the Gold AH are two different things......so imho you sir, are blind to only that what you WANT to see.
End of my little rant
Well I don't know what you're playing but I've never spent more than 50k on the AH and have cleared act 1 Inferno as a Barb. I have a feeling I'm going to be here for awhile because the gear I need to progress comes very slowly. Anyways the game was intentionally designed this way, Blizzard has said so. If you're not patient enough to wait for the gear you need to drop or farm the gold for it then you can pay up or quit.
The RMAH is a terrible thing...please do not support it. I will explain why it is terrible by attacking some of the popular arguments for the RMAH.
1. Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!
Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress? And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH? The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER. Do you not see a problem here? This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure.
Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind. If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money. So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.
2. The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!
There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game. This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases. Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH. And why is this unlikely? Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.
The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game. This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job. Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.
I started this topic about mostly a commodities RMAH which pretty everyone in the thread arguing against an RMAH has completely ignored.
Think of how much time it takes to get mats for enchanting/jewelcrafting/alchemy in WoW... that's right, not long at all. But regardless, people still don't want to do it. This is also not a design flaw. These small activities are part of what makes an MMO an MMO.
Things like enchants gems and pots are mostly what end game players spend their gold on. So there are a few scenarios of what would happen if these things were put into an RMAH... Farmers would farm them to hell making them worth almost nothing... This could be solved by a diminishing returns system. And the other is that there aren't enough to go around, making them worth more than they should be... could be solved by a max price value. Keep in mind these things could also be sold for gold, made yourself, etc... the RMAH isn't the only source, which is infinitely better than a cash shop.
Everyone here is stuck soley on D3's RMAH. Which is pretty much pay to win since there's end game gear sold on it.
BTW, I spend an hour or two a day ENJOYING D3, I still have yet to beat it on inferno. There's no slave laboring/farming going on. Yeah, I like finding good loot.. does that make me a farmer? I dunno you decide.
A commodities RMAH does nothing to change either argument I made...farming is still required to make it work.
And as for a diminishing returns system...I think this would do more harm than good. Players who can only play infrequently, but in long bursts of time (weekends) would suffer, and gold farmers probably wouldn't notice that much because of the scale of their operation.
As for being stuck on D3's RMAH...it's really the best example of a large scale RMAH ever implemented. Of course it's going to be used as an example.
Finally, I'm sure that you can make a modest amount of money just playing the game as you normally would. But you yourself said you have made under $50. I really don't think that's worth all the other problems that come with an RMAH.
The RMAH is a terrible thing...please do not support it. I will explain why it is terrible by attacking some of the popular arguments for the RMAH.
1. Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!
Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress? And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH? The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER. Do you not see a problem here? This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure.
Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind. If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money. So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.
2. The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!
There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game. This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases. Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH. And why is this unlikely? Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.
The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game. This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job. Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.
I started this topic about mostly a commodities RMAH which pretty everyone in the thread arguing against an RMAH has completely ignored.
Think of how much time it takes to get mats for enchanting/jewelcrafting/alchemy in WoW... that's right, not long at all. But regardless, people still don't want to do it. This is also not a design flaw. These small activities are part of what makes an MMO an MMO.
Things like enchants gems and pots are mostly what end game players spend their gold on. So there are a few scenarios of what would happen if these things were put into an RMAH... Farmers would farm them to hell making them worth almost nothing... This could be solved by a diminishing returns system. And the other is that there aren't enough to go around, making them worth more than they should be... could be solved by a max price value. Keep in mind these things could also be sold for gold, made yourself, etc... the RMAH isn't the only source, which is infinitely better than a cash shop.
Everyone here is stuck soley on D3's RMAH. Which is pretty much pay to win since there's end game gear sold on it.
BTW, I spend an hour or two a day ENJOYING D3, I still have yet to beat it on inferno. There's no slave laboring/farming going on. Yeah, I like finding good loot.. does that make me a farmer? I dunno you decide.
A commodities RMAH does nothing to change either argument I made...farming is still required to make it work.
And as for a diminishing returns system...I think this would do more harm than good. Players who can only play infrequently, but in long bursts of time (weekends) would suffer, and gold farmers probably wouldn't notice that much because of the scale of their operation.
As for being stuck on D3's RMAH...it's really the best example of a large scale RMAH ever implemented. Of course it's going to be used as an example.
Finally, I'm sure that you can make a modest amount of money just playing the game as you normally would. But you yourself said you have made under $50. I really don't think that's worth all the other problems that come with an RMAH.
Yes there is very minimal farming for it... not extensive farming like you said.
What are the problems that come with it?
So far you've said grinding... part of every MMO, don't see how it adds any extra problem.
Your second argument, well I'm not even sure what is the issue. Pro gold farmers are gonna do their thing no matter what, RMAH or not, and the average player thinking they're gonna make a living off it is delusional.
Scripts/exploits are controllable. Power farming could be controllable also... Maybe like a rested xp bonus, players who take longer breaks get bonuses to their GF/MF if we're talking in D3 terms.
If this were true, the RMT industry would have gone out of business by now.
I notice that the RMAH seems to have inspired a casino-like mentality in some players - that dream that they'll be able to support themselves playing games. I think this is a very dangerous idea for people to get in their heads, to the point that if it persists, I think these games are in danger of being flagged as a form of gambling rather than gaming.
Originally posted by Creslin321 1. Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!
Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress? And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH? The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER. Do you not see a problem here? This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure. Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind. If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money. So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.
This is true, however the very same thing can be said about every MMO known to me with economy. Because in order to make something valuable/rare thus sellable at AH or other means to trade, developers tend to make obtaining those items quite time consuming(as this is only true currency in MMOs). Which almost always means grindy(better or worse masked). In D3 it feels as serious issue, but it's loot based game, way more than any mmo will ever be. Also I think it could be done better then Blizz did.
Regardless I prefer it from any F2P cash shop where developers often make it unpleasant to play game without buying items in store. In RMAH it's players who will have to get those items first. This limits game unfriendliness compared to cash shop version.
Originally posted by Creslin321 2. The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!
There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game. This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases. Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH. And why is this unlikely? Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.
The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game. This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job. Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.
And where is most common "I play game, have fun and sell items I don't want/need" version? You sound like people(and I mean majority here) play D3 only in order to get money(be it income or just fixed amount) and I doubt it. You can easily sell used game and not everyone bothers with it. Same deal here, you can earn some $, but not everyone cares about it. I mean sure people try selling items, but when they get bored with game and AH/RMAH they just simply stop playing like with any other game.
Scripts/exploits are controllable. Power farming could be controllable also... Maybe like a rested xp bonus, players who take longer breaks get bonuses to their GF/MF if we're talking in D3 terms.
If this were true, the RMT industry would have gone out of business by now.
I notice that the RMAH seems to have inspired a casino-like mentality in some players - that dream that they'll be able to support themselves playing games. I think this is a very dangerous idea for people to get in their heads, to the point that if it persists, I think these games are in danger of being flagged as a form of gambling rather than gaming.
It is true. RMT companies survive now days off thievery.
There will probably always be some sort of cheat/bots but for the most part they are very limited by bans. Thus controlled.
If this were true, the RMT industry would have gone out of business by now.
I notice that the RMAH seems to have inspired a casino-like mentality in some players - that dream that they'll be able to support themselves playing games. I think this is a very dangerous idea for people to get in their heads, to the point that if it persists, I think these games are in danger of being flagged as a form of gambling rather than gaming.
I agree that before playing D3 people can think how nice it'd be to play game and earn money instead having a job. But most mentally healthy folks discover that in reality it's time consuming and not so fun as it seemed in the first place. And stable income is less likely than with any real life job.
I guess peeps with some mental instability can get addicted to this sort of gambling (although less dangerous then real gambling as you don't spend money here), but they usually do get addicted to different things as mean to escape from RL problems. See many stories about WoW addicts.
It works in D3 because it's completely ignorable and D3 isn't a tight grouping game where you're going to guild up with some people and they're going to rely on you (and your gear) to make it through encounters successfully.
For it to work in other games, the same lack of pressure and lack of pay-to-win would have to be true.
But if it were true then I'm completely fine with it (for example if only vanity items could be RMAH'd by players.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Some other guy with max gear gotten from RMAH(400k)
So you can see people who use real money pretty much hit 5-6 times stronger than me. And if I want to have as good gear as the guy I need to farm like 5000 hours litterly.
The real problem is game company purposely makes the game really grindy and create huge power gap so people will use RMAH.
That's the same problem with F2P games. The problem is the games became purposely grindy and have huge power gap between people who spend money and those who don't.
And the main reason I hate RMAH is it's so expensive.
If Blizzard really want to make money, just sell us the items directly. I could be buying a weapon from Blizzard store for 10$, but instead I have to buy it for 100$ from another player. (either way Blizzard make the same amount of money, so why not just sell us the items directly).
And the main reason I hate RMAH is it's so expensive.
If Blizzard really want to make money, just sell us the items directly. I could be buying a weapon from Blizzard store for 10$, but instead I have to buy it for 100$ from another player. (either way Blizzard make the same amount of money, so why not just sell us the items directly).
Simple answer: because the players are that freaking dumb.
As of now Pay to Win is still seem as something to avoid the majority of population, and if Blizzard sold items directly to the players that would hit a red flag on majority of the players and they would complain the game is P2W since they selling that uber sword u want on their store with unlimited supply.
What Blizzard did was a moderate spin on the idea where the players "control" the RMAH and since it aint a company sellling but players farming and trading around it dosent look so much as P2W. Dosent look but it is the exact same thing in a different lable and it worked so well that while majority of people hates P2W Diablo 3 still sold like crazy.
It worked so well that we get someone posting a thread saying RMAH is the future and we should all love it... Kind hard to even take someone that thinks this is the right course of action but im gonna answer his original question.
Would selling only stuff like potions crafting mats and the like work on a RMAH? No, if u have any common sense and a brain u should know that much. This is something that can be easily exploited and made into pay to win by players themselfs... Here is an example: Lets say ur a new player and ur poor in game and dosent want or cant farm to make money but u got money in real life, what do u do? U buy tons and tons of potions with real money resell them for in game money and buy whatever uber godly gear. Congratulations, repeat the process a few times and u will be able to get the best available gear in that game that would take months for a non paying player in a matter of minutes (aka P2W).
It surprises me that gamers over recent years are increasingly more accepting with monetary costs to do anything in games.
Mindboggling.
You guys would probably fine in the future for a monetary cost to change maps and zones. Funny what direction this genre's going...
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
It surprises me that gamers over recent years are increasingly more accepting with monetary costs to do anything in games.
Mindboggling.
You guys would probably fine in the future for a monetary cost to change maps and zones. Funny what direction this genre's going...
What they don't see is that big companies like EA and Blizzard are more able to deal with a large up front cost that indie companies can easily deal with. Demanding free games will force small guys out of the market and will feed into the hands of the big guys so many people dispise around here.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
Sure, but what does it have to do with RMAH? In every popular enough MMO you have those people not only botting/hacking and farming stuff but also spamming chats and hacking people that use their services accounts. I guess they can use RMAH(although they actually prefer not to as it's easier to track them) but that doesn't make their behavior more legal and they are banned in D3 like in every other MMO. Unless you go for conspiracy theory that Blizzard works with "them"...
You still ignore the point how this will be the new standard for ALL games. There is no choice and there is no moving on. I can't see how you can enjoy being a tool for blizzard unless you're on their payroll.
So yes, please hide from all the reasonable arguments brought by anti-RMAH people. Please do ignore it. It only shows that RMAH is bad for us the consumers and how willingly some people give up their rights to defend a nameless company who wouldn't give a crap if you got hacked. You're just a moneybag to them.
The RMAH is a terrible thing...please do not support it. I will explain why it is terrible by attacking some of the popular arguments for the RMAH.
1. Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!
Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress? And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH? The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER. Do you not see a problem here? This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure.
Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind. If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money. So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.
2. The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!
There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game. This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases. Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH. And why is this unlikely? Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.
The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game. This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job. Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
The problem still exists, it's just turned on its head.
Gold inflation happens because the economy is constantly injected with gold from players acquiring it from mobs, quests, selling to NPCs, etc. What happens is that the rate that gold supply increases exceeds the rate that tradeable good supply increases, so we wind up with gold inflation. The comparatively rate items wind up costing more of the compartively common gold.
All the RMAH does is basically set the currency supply to real money so that it inflates very slowly (in game terms). BUT IT DOES NOTHING TO CHANGE THE GOOD SUPPLY PROBLEM. The economy can STILL suffer if the supply of goods increases too rapidly. And in D3, with no soulbound items, this is definitely the case.
So instead of inflation, you will see deflation. Items will get progressively cheaper and cheaper in real money terms as the supply of items increases rapidly, but the supply of currency (real money) stays relatively consistent.
My point is that the RMAH does nothing to solve the progressive economic problems we see in games. These problems can be solved, but they will need to be solved by the dev actually creating a game that is designed to have a sustainable economy, with things like item decay etc...not by just tying currency to real money.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I started this topic about mostly a commodities RMAH which pretty everyone in the thread arguing against an RMAH has completely ignored.
Think of how much time it takes to get mats for enchanting/jewelcrafting/alchemy in WoW... that's right, not long at all. But regardless, people still don't want to do it. This is also not a design flaw. These small activities are part of what makes an MMO an MMO.
Things like enchants gems and pots are mostly what end game players spend their gold on. So there are a few scenarios of what would happen if these things were put into an RMAH... Farmers would farm them to hell making them worth almost nothing... This could be solved by a diminishing returns system. And the other is that there aren't enough to go around, making them worth more than they should be... could be solved by a max price value. Keep in mind these things could also be sold for gold, made yourself, etc... the RMAH isn't the only source, which is infinitely better than a cash shop.
Everyone here is stuck soley on D3's RMAH. Which is pretty much pay to win since there's end game gear sold on it.
BTW, I spend an hour or two a day ENJOYING D3, I still have yet to beat it on inferno. There's no slave laboring/farming going on. Yeah, I like finding good loot.. does that make me a farmer? I dunno you decide.
anything w the name "Blizzard" on it makes it seem shiny and new
SOE did this already for 5 years back in 2006
it was called Station Exchange, later named Live Gamer
-- players could sell their characters, gear, gold
it was used on the mmos Everquest 2, Vanguard on select servers
SOE phased it out last year due to lack in popularity
SOE's Station Exchange - The Results of a Year of Trading (2007 article)
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1716/soes_station_exchange__the_.php
EQ2 fan sites
Totally forgot about that, actually the only time I've ever bought gold. I think things would have gone differently if they didn't limit it to one server.
I agree 100% with Creslin.
This gender is getting mad about "money grab".
We start to see games with B2P + P2P + CS, and was allready a bad thing.
Now the giant Blizard lunch D3 with RMAH and is allready a good thing...... this is getting crazy.
edit:typo
If you dont see this then imo, you are blind to the inflation that these Pro-AH traders are causing in the ingame economy.
I played over 100 hours in D3 and still loving it.....but when i get stuck (by that i mean that the gear that drops for me is not enough to keep advancing through the game) i come to the conclusion that i dont have the money needed to buy anything (on the gold AH that is) good out there. Why is that?.....the inflation that these RMT have caused is even noticable in the gold AH.
I'll explain: i need an item to advance (not top notch, just something that keeps me going), the price of these are between 2 MILLION gold and about 30 MILLION gold......i have in those 100+ hours just about 500K (yeah, as in thousands not millions) so if i want to buy something i have to go and buy gold of the real money AH for about 2,5€ for a million gold....so if i need a cool 10 MILLION (for 1 or maybe 2 items???) it costs me 25€ OR i can keep grinding the money (as the casual gamer that i am) and keep farming my own gold for the next 2 years so i can finally buy the item i need to advance.
Now you tell me that the real money traders and the Gold AH are two different things......so imho you sir, are blind to only that what you WANT to see.
End of my little rant
I will not play gamess with D3 styled auction houses and that is that.
I will not even start to play a game with a monthly sub and which sells stuff to players no matter if those are just for looks or not.
Well I don't know what you're playing but I've never spent more than 50k on the AH and have cleared act 1 Inferno as a Barb. I have a feeling I'm going to be here for awhile because the gear I need to progress comes very slowly. Anyways the game was intentionally designed this way, Blizzard has said so. If you're not patient enough to wait for the gear you need to drop or farm the gold for it then you can pay up or quit.
A commodities RMAH does nothing to change either argument I made...farming is still required to make it work.
And as for a diminishing returns system...I think this would do more harm than good. Players who can only play infrequently, but in long bursts of time (weekends) would suffer, and gold farmers probably wouldn't notice that much because of the scale of their operation.
As for being stuck on D3's RMAH...it's really the best example of a large scale RMAH ever implemented. Of course it's going to be used as an example.
Finally, I'm sure that you can make a modest amount of money just playing the game as you normally would. But you yourself said you have made under $50. I really don't think that's worth all the other problems that come with an RMAH.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yes there is very minimal farming for it... not extensive farming like you said.
What are the problems that come with it?
So far you've said grinding... part of every MMO, don't see how it adds any extra problem.
Your second argument, well I'm not even sure what is the issue. Pro gold farmers are gonna do their thing no matter what, RMAH or not, and the average player thinking they're gonna make a living off it is delusional.
If this were true, the RMT industry would have gone out of business by now.
I notice that the RMAH seems to have inspired a casino-like mentality in some players - that dream that they'll be able to support themselves playing games. I think this is a very dangerous idea for people to get in their heads, to the point that if it persists, I think these games are in danger of being flagged as a form of gambling rather than gaming.
This is true, however the very same thing can be said about every MMO known to me with economy. Because in order to make something valuable/rare thus sellable at AH or other means to trade, developers tend to make obtaining those items quite time consuming(as this is only true currency in MMOs). Which almost always means grindy(better or worse masked). In D3 it feels as serious issue, but it's loot based game, way more than any mmo will ever be. Also I think it could be done better then Blizz did.Regardless I prefer it from any F2P cash shop where developers often make it unpleasant to play game without buying items in store. In RMAH it's players who will have to get those items first. This limits game unfriendliness compared to cash shop version.
And where is most common "I play game, have fun and sell items I don't want/need" version? You sound like people(and I mean majority here) play D3 only in order to get money(be it income or just fixed amount) and I doubt it. You can easily sell used game and not everyone bothers with it. Same deal here, you can earn some $, but not everyone cares about it. I mean sure people try selling items, but when they get bored with game and AH/RMAH they just simply stop playing like with any other game.
It is true. RMT companies survive now days off thievery.
There will probably always be some sort of cheat/bots but for the most part they are very limited by bans. Thus controlled.
I agree that before playing D3 people can think how nice it'd be to play game and earn money instead having a job. But most mentally healthy folks discover that in reality it's time consuming and not so fun as it seemed in the first place. And stable income is less likely than with any real life job.
I guess peeps with some mental instability can get addicted to this sort of gambling (although less dangerous then real gambling as you don't spend money here), but they usually do get addicted to different things as mean to escape from RL problems. See many stories about WoW addicts.
It works in D3 because it's completely ignorable and D3 isn't a tight grouping game where you're going to guild up with some people and they're going to rely on you (and your gear) to make it through encounters successfully.
For it to work in other games, the same lack of pressure and lack of pay-to-win would have to be true.
But if it were true then I'm completely fine with it (for example if only vanity items could be RMAH'd by players.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My demon hunter's dps in Diablo 3(70k)
Some other guy with max gear gotten from RMAH(400k)
So you can see people who use real money pretty much hit 5-6 times stronger than me. And if I want to have as good gear as the guy I need to farm like 5000 hours litterly.
The real problem is game company purposely makes the game really grindy and create huge power gap so people will use RMAH.
That's the same problem with F2P games. The problem is the games became purposely grindy and have huge power gap between people who spend money and those who don't.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
And the main reason I hate RMAH is it's so expensive.
If Blizzard really want to make money, just sell us the items directly. I could be buying a weapon from Blizzard store for 10$, but instead I have to buy it for 100$ from another player. (either way Blizzard make the same amount of money, so why not just sell us the items directly).
Simple answer: because the players are that freaking dumb.
As of now Pay to Win is still seem as something to avoid the majority of population, and if Blizzard sold items directly to the players that would hit a red flag on majority of the players and they would complain the game is P2W since they selling that uber sword u want on their store with unlimited supply.
What Blizzard did was a moderate spin on the idea where the players "control" the RMAH and since it aint a company sellling but players farming and trading around it dosent look so much as P2W. Dosent look but it is the exact same thing in a different lable and it worked so well that while majority of people hates P2W Diablo 3 still sold like crazy.
It worked so well that we get someone posting a thread saying RMAH is the future and we should all love it... Kind hard to even take someone that thinks this is the right course of action but im gonna answer his original question.
Would selling only stuff like potions crafting mats and the like work on a RMAH? No, if u have any common sense and a brain u should know that much. This is something that can be easily exploited and made into pay to win by players themselfs... Here is an example: Lets say ur a new player and ur poor in game and dosent want or cant farm to make money but u got money in real life, what do u do? U buy tons and tons of potions with real money resell them for in game money and buy whatever uber godly gear. Congratulations, repeat the process a few times and u will be able to get the best available gear in that game that would take months for a non paying player in a matter of minutes (aka P2W).
It surprises me that gamers over recent years are increasingly more accepting with monetary costs to do anything in games.
Mindboggling.
You guys would probably fine in the future for a monetary cost to change maps and zones. Funny what direction this genre's going...
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
What they don't see is that big companies like EA and Blizzard are more able to deal with a large up front cost that indie companies can easily deal with. Demanding free games will force small guys out of the market and will feed into the hands of the big guys so many people dispise around here.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It used to be that you had to pay $0.25 to res.