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Reason PvP sucks in most games

124

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  • SixfeetunderSixfeetunder Sept-iles, QCPosts: 180Member

    i think the biggest prob is balance class and secondo ... noob player with bad skill choice , don't understand your class combo

     

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Truelevel
    Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
    Originally posted by Lienhart

    Actually, you're all wrong.

    Most MMO PvP are usually

    Time invested == Skill

    That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

    Effective Time Invested == Skill

    However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

    What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.

    I believe what Lienhart is talking about is the accumulated advantage "over time" regardless of skill.

    Take 2 players... Player A and Player B are just starting out in a new MMO

    Player A, usually has 3 hours a day to play.. hand-eye cordination isnt good but he makes up for it with experience.

    Player B, has only about 2 hours to play sporadically throughout the week.. he has great hand-eye cord and reflexes.

    After a span of 2 months player A and B meet up in battle and player A kills player B due to the equipment he obtained through raiding (which of course everybody knows raids are time consuming). Using your counterstrike example player A wouldnt last a week against player B because... [skill/talent > Weapons/experience]

    you haven't shown why the player's skill should be more important than the character's gear.   The mage is casting a fireball the player can't.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by hyllstarter
    Open world pvp rules !!! I never understood why people liked the canned instanced pvp.

    fairness, convenience, scripted events and more interesting objectives .. lots of reasons.

    In fact, i don't play games with open world pvp, only instanced, or no pvp.

  • jusomdudejusomdude Somewhere, KSPosts: 2,401Member

    Everyone has their ideal PvP system. Mine would be something like EvE's where you can attack noobs but also at great risk to yourself.

    Also, there should be better rewards to gain in less secure areas.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by hyllstarter
    Open world pvp rules !!! I never understood why people liked the canned instanced pvp.

           Probably because it is more fair....THe bad thing about open world PVP is 99.99999% of the time the person yo uare fighting against is much higher level/skilll and you have no chance.....At least in instanced PVP the players are lumped based on their level and it is somewhat fair.

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Originally posted by hyllstarter
    Open world pvp rules !!! I never understood why people liked the canned instanced pvp.

           Probably because it is more fair....THe bad thing about open world PVP is 99.99999% of the time the person yo uare fighting against is much higher level/skilll and you have no chance.....At least in instanced PVP the players are lumped based on their level and it is somewhat fair.

    Open World PVP can Exist now with GW2's introduction of Downleveling in zones.

    No longer will there be fears of level 80 ganking level 10 , because those same characters will be level 10 as well

    I do believe that Open World PVP will be making a comeback after GW2, if its successful.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • Insane666Insane666 gdanskPosts: 66Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lucioon
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Originally posted by hyllstarter
    Open world pvp rules !!! I never understood why people liked the canned instanced pvp.

           Probably because it is more fair....THe bad thing about open world PVP is 99.99999% of the time the person yo uare fighting against is much higher level/skilll and you have no chance.....At least in instanced PVP the players are lumped based on their level and it is somewhat fair.

    Open World PVP can Exist now with GW2's introduction of Downleveling in zones.

    No longer will there be fears of level 80 ganking level 10 , because those same characters will be level 10 as well

    I do believe that Open World PVP will be making a comeback after GW2, if its successful.

    WvWvW is NOT Open World PVP, thats a very common misconception on these forums lately, WvWvW is yet another single zone pvp.

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  • gravesworngravesworn charleston, WVPosts: 324Member
    Originally posted by Insane666

    Originally posted by Lucioon
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Originally posted by hyllstarter
    Open world pvp rules !!! I never understood why people liked the canned instanced pvp.

           Probably because it is more fair....THe bad thing about open world PVP is 99.99999% of the time the person yo uare fighting against is much higher level/skilll and you have no chance.....At least in instanced PVP the players are lumped based on their level and it is somewhat fair.

    Open World PVP can Exist now with GW2's introduction of Downleveling in zones.

    No longer will there be fears of level 80 ganking level 10 , because those same characters will be level 10 as well

    I do believe that Open World PVP will be making a comeback after GW2, if its successful.

    WvWvW is NOT Open World PVP, thats a very common misconception on these forums lately, WvWvW is yet another single zone pvp.

     

    He is not referring to WvWvW in his statement. He is referring to that in the pve world. In th pvp world you get scaled down depending the zone your in. If there was an open world pvp game that had this scaling feature the guy is stating this culd even the field of battle.
  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Palladin

    1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

    This here the best best exacmple of pvp and how it should be in all pvp type games.

    2. PvP specific gear

    This is silly yes

    3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

    Yes BGs have no place in a MMORPG game.

    4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

    Should not exist.

    5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

    What?

     

    For me the best type of PVP is the stuff you see in Darkfall and others similar to it, all this instanced BG stuff is just pointless if I wanted to play that type of game i would be playing mount and blade. I want my mmorpgs to have massive open sandbox worlds with full on PVP and full loot.. after all mmorpgs are suppose to be massive in scale..

  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    In my opinion neither gear r skill should solely be the desciding factor in if you win or not in a pvp encounter regardless of game really, but most of all in mmorpg. The reassn being is even in the real world the gear/equipment you use can affect your proformance, for better or worse, in activities which you are doing while using that gear/equipment. The issue i see is that right now we are vastly too flung to gear being the desciding factor of how wel you do in combat, and the amount of skill needed to off-set the advantage gained from the gear is just well outside of what most players will have in most games, but i do not think that taking the combat to where it is the only factor that matter either though. Gear you gain from content should give an advantage, but that advantage should never be so high that someone else has to be in nearly the same level of gear to be competetive against them. The closer you keep the stat disparity between gear sets the more skill will matter in the outcome of a match, because right now in many games a suit of green gear just gets completely destroyed by purple gear for stats (an it is not just by like afew points, but by sometimes a hundred stat points that just makes it a huge expense of needed skilll to overcome that fact.). If you keep the stat differnce to where at most you would see a 20 to 30 point difference it would help to keep the game less about your gear being why you dominate, and more that your gear just enhances your skill , while still allowuing the lower geared players to have a chance to overcome that difference in skill or gear as well as just bad luck playing more innto it as well.
  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Originally posted by hyllstarter
    Open world pvp rules !!! I never understood why people liked the canned instanced pvp.

           Probably because it is more fair....THe bad thing about open world PVP is 99.99999% of the time the person yo uare fighting against is much higher level/skilll and you have no chance.....At least in instanced PVP the players are lumped based on their level and it is somewhat fair.

    Yeah saddly in the nutshell as good as open world pvp seems it allows for well the enjoyment of another player to be gained by taking the enjoyment of playing the game from another player in the world. This is not how many players in the game want to spend their gaming time constently worrying about if they are going to get attacked by other players, fighting against compeltely uneven odds with little or no chances, and well being at the mercy of the whims of other players in the world. As such bg/instanced pvp came into being for players that wanted to pvp yet choose to play on a pve server to avoid the isues that make world pvp unfun for them.

  • gravesworngravesworn charleston, WVPosts: 324Member
    If you had a polished open world pvp with balanced classes/skillsets/abilities. One that was less gear dependant. Things would turn in to a numbers game. Solo players would cry that they got maulled and it isnt fair that 25 people beat them up. No one game is gonna make everyone happy. This being said i think we are on the eve of a rennisience of sandbox gaming. The ebb and flow of constant danger and struggle will keep people playing.... Assuming it is a polished game.
  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by gravesworn
    If you had a polished open world pvp with balanced classes/skillsets/abilities. One that was less gear dependant. Things would turn in to a numbers game. Solo players would cry that they got maulled and it isnt fair that 25 people beat them up. No one game is gonna make everyone happy. This being said i think we are on the eve of a rennisience of sandbox gaming. The ebb and flow of constant danger and struggle will keep people playing.... Assuming it is a polished game.

    Not sure about a change into sandbox games as most people i know, and most of the people that actually play mmos that is targeted i think would nto go for it. Yet a much more interactive themepark that actually has the world, quests, instances, an events in the world change with each action that players before you take very well could be the next step. Or a hybrid themepark/sandbox game that is still built around dev content, byut which has many of the missing an favorite sandbox feature in it, since most people do not want to actually have to create their own content to play in a game theey pay to get entertament from. Also even in gear dependent games now it is a numbers game (zerg), but atleast in a more balanced game an less gear dependent game the one being attacked has a chance of taking out some of the attackers.

  • hyllstarterhyllstarter ukiah, CAPosts: 203Member
    See I come from SWG were you open world pvp because you want to. You could have run around in pvp mode or pve mode so unless you were running in pvp mode you didnt have to worry about being ganked.

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  • jeremyjodesjeremyjodes antioch, ORPosts: 679Member

    Resillence Stat stacking destroys PVP. defeats the entire purpose of it. once seen a decked out orc warrior survive 6 guys unloading on him. druids were the same in bear form. other games keep trying to add some type of stat like resilence. i mean you got healers let them support heal remove that shit stat.

     

     

    image

  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member
    Originally posted by Caldrin
    Originally posted by Palladin

    1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

    This here the best best exacmple of pvp and how it should be in all pvp type games.

    2. PvP specific gear

    This is silly yes

    3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

    Yes BGs have no place in a MMORPG game.

    4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

    Should not exist.

    5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

    What?

     

    For me the best type of PVP is the stuff you see in Darkfall and others similar to it, all this instanced BG stuff is just pointless if I wanted to play that type of game i would be playing mount and blade. I want my mmorpgs to have massive open sandbox worlds with full on PVP and full loot.. after all mmorpgs are suppose to be massive in scale..

    The devs of Darkfall are planning on slowing PvP down and adding momentum-based mechanics. 

    (just sayin)

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member
    Originally posted by jeremyjodes

    Resillence Stat stacking destroys PVP. defeats the entire purpose of it. once seen a decked out orc warrior survive 6 guys unloading on him. druids were the same in bear form. other games keep trying to add some type of stat like resilence. i mean you got healers let them support heal remove that shit stat.  

     

    There are no PvP games which use this mechanic, thank god

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member
    [mod edit]

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • GruugGruug Chillicothe, ILPosts: 1,311Member Uncommon

    PvP in a game that has PvE mechanics has never been that much fun to me. If you like the PvE mechanics. You probably won't like them used in PvP. Same would be the case (probably) if the game mechanics were designed FOR PvP and then applied to PvE. Frankly, I am not sure why they even put PvP in a PvE game or vis versa.

     

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  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    The devs of Darkfall are planning on slowing PvP down and adding momentum-based mechanics. 

    (just sayin)

    Yeah I know just not sure where he was getting the general number of 50% from? did he mean PVP in every games needs to be reduced by 50%? Hell PVP in Mortal online would be real slow then.. LOL

     

    Some games do need to be a bit slower.. Darkfall being a good example.. but not 50% slower

  • deathangelldeathangell oviedo, FLPosts: 85Member
    PvP will always be a issue if you dont make servers for care bears its a simple thing to fix most people are like the OP scared bad children who get upset when things are not fair balanced or easy. PvP gear in most games is there to give u the edge over pve players and visa versa that is just how the world sense WoW introduced the crack head system. Just make a server with the OPS rule set and BAM no one care bear crying post like this one. As for the rest of the world who understands that the gaming world is very similiar to the real world "not fair" you learn to deal adapt and over come or even move on. Your choice but pvp in most cases doesnt suck.
  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by Gruug

    PvP in a game that has PvE mechanics has never been that much fun to me. If you like the PvE mechanics. You probably won't like them used in PvP. Same would be the case (probably) if the game mechanics were designed FOR PvP and then applied to PvE. Frankly, I am not sure why they even put PvP in a PvE game or vis versa.

     

    Yeah kinda what i have been saying, and why i find a system like what gw1 had as great step up from using pve/pvp values for bothsides. Instead make abilities have two sets of values that are set for when you are doing pve comtent, and the other for pvp content, an that way you can balance them solely for either pve or pvp without unbalancing the other set of values for the other playstyle. Most of why you have pvp and pve mixed is that no everyone in the gaming playerbase is solely a pve or pvp player, with actually a large amount of them wantng to be able to do both snce they enjoy them both in good measure.Players that solely like either just pve or pvp content are actually quite rare an a small group of players compared to the players that like a mixture of both.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Palladin

    1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

    2. PvP specific gear

    3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

    4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

    5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

     

    IT'S MY OPINION:

    BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

    PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

    I see no reason for pvp specific gear

    1. AGREED 100%.  Forced open world PvP doesnt work and leads to griefing and ganking, PvP should be consentual and segregated.

    2. Plus I would add in PvP stats like Valor

    3. same as #2

    4. could of kept your list to 1 and 2 so so far.

    5. disagree with this, movement is esential and promotes skill.

     

    Seeing as your list could of been condensed to 2 items I wil ladd my own list of items on why PvP sucks.

    1. TTK is skewed to the to fast side of the coin (TTK = time to kill)

    2. the notion that CC effects is so important, Id much rather there be no CC and it take a person 30 secs to 1 min to die.

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  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,405Member Uncommon

    PvP SUCKS because it's boring. PVP SUCKS because of WoW's precedent Battleground system and it's viral infection to other MMOs.

     

    Redundant Warzones? I thought this was a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game. There is nothing MASSIVE about small Counter-Strike-sized games.

    PvP Gear = Stupidest idea I've ever heard. Battlegrounds are so boring that they need to provide this kind of incentive for people to play them. It's a lazy way to avoid having to actually knuckle down and do some real coding for meaning world pvp with proper sanctions to protect lowbies from max levelers.

    PvP Sucks because it's almost always virtual socialism. Everything must be equal! Blah Blah. If I spend an entire month raiding for good gear and increasing my player skill, I should be able to bash the hell out of some weekend warrior.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,725Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    PvP SUCKS because it's boring. PVP SUCKS because of WoW's precedent Battleground system and it's viral infection to other MMOs. 

    Redundant Warzones? I thought this was a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game. There is nothing MASSIVE about small Counter-Strike-sized games.

    PvP Gear = Stupidest idea I've ever heard. Battlegrounds are so boring that they need to provide this kind of incentive for people to play them. It's a lazy way to avoid having to actually knuckle down and do some real coding for meaning world pvp with proper sanctions to protect lowbies from max levelers.

    PvP Sucks because it's almost always virtual socialism. Everything must be equal! Blah Blah. If I spend an entire month raiding for good gear and increasing my player skill, I should be able to bash the hell out of some weekend warrior. 

    Eh?  WOW's BG/Arena system takes a step closer to pure PVP (the overwhelming choice of PVPers: PVP purely about skill and teamwork; no zerging; no progression advantage.)

    Because it was closer to a pure PVP experience, it's been rather popular (but still nowhere near as popular as truly pure PVP.)

    Nothing says instanced PVP can't be massive though.  (See Planetside 1, Planetside 2, and GW2.)  Although in all these examples the thing that separates them from bad world PVP is a population limit, so that more (ideally nearly all) battles are between even teams.  This makes player skill and teamwork matter more.

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