You have the advatage to see that TOR turned out to be gatbage, I knew TOR was going to be garbage well before launch, and I posted it. I took a beating for it. Kind of like I am taking a beating now, for my GWII remarks, but like tor, I will be laughing last on GWII, saying "I told you so" .
The good thing about GWII is it wont leave a bitter taste in your mouth because of subs. people will constanlty play and quit off and on, like they did in GW1. Come back play awhile see whats new and go play another game.
Have to say I agree 100%. TOR being a failure well before launch was blatantly obvious, although I did not post it. GW2 going the same way, ie offering a short term play experience only is also blatantly obvious, although I am also not going to bother posting about it. I am just not into pissing contests, and "they" just do not want to hear it. Also it is not hard to justify a one off $60 spend for this short term experience - as you said this is the best part of GW2.
BTW, I am not criticising you for posting this, by all means keep posting, just don't expect them to thank you for it, even when the whining starts.
TOR Was a failure before launch due to its mechanics and its focus on the wrong mechanics aka story and it was charging 15 bucks a month.
It seem to be that your biggest problem with guild wars 2 based only on this post is that it doesn't have mechanics designed to extend unnecessarily exttend your time. Most other MMORPG try to extend the length by adding barriers, guild wars 2 actually respects you as a player and doesn't use unneccessary tricks into designed to stall you so you can pay a sub.
Make no mistake, not every mmorpg is designed for everybody. guild wars 2 isn't designed for people that want busy work, you can easily have busy work playing WOW. Guild wars 2 is designed for people that want to have fun, gw2 knows every game will eventually get boring but unlike every game it does not punish you significantly for leaving.
Well I didn't actually say that, and that is not actually my reason for thinking that GW2 will be short lived entertainment for most. I think the mechanics of the game are ultimately going to feel repetitive and grindy - not at first. It seems refreshing new at first. Give it time.
What do the Asian grinders do when they want to westernise their game? They add story context to the questing structure. Now the main "exciting" new element for questing in GW2 is the dynamic events. BUT, unless you are in the right place at the right time (and even go to some effort) the story context is lost, and all you are left with is a series of quest goals, and typically in a narrower range of goals than traditional quest giver type quests allow for. So basically grinding.
Then there is the combat - that's new and exciing isn't it? Well yes and no. They have removed the trinity, to which most of the game's supporters are full of praise for, but they replaced the trinity with what? The trinity allows for group synergy so that the group as a whole is more than the sum of its parts, not to mention enabling of statregy in the group fight mechanic. Now in GW2 you have what? Chaos? Big zerg fights are fun for awhile, but I would expect most jaded MMO fans to want more in the long term.
Then there is the lack of much of anything to strive or compete for, the fact that it is a themepark reliant on developer content to sustain interst etc.
So maybe the PvP side will do it better? Well maybe. If you are into the sPvP predominantly, wouldn't a good MOBA do it better? Then there is the WvWvW. Again probably fun for awhile, but the lack of consequence/reward in this context will ultimately drive away any but the most casual of PvPers.
Again, as I said, fun for awhile, but not the long lasting appeal that many have said they are expecting from it.
I will leave you with this thought - if you go in with the expectation that it is short term entertainment, then there is potential for upside. If you go in expecting this to be the new messiah of games, then there is no upside and plenty of downside.
You have the advatage to see that TOR turned out to be gatbage, I knew TOR was going to be garbage well before launch, and I posted it. I took a beating for it. Kind of like I am taking a beating now, for my GWII remarks, but like tor, I will be laughing last on GWII, saying "I told you so" .
The good thing about GWII is it wont leave a bitter taste in your mouth because of subs. people will constanlty play and quit off and on, like they did in GW1. Come back play awhile see whats new and go play another game.
Have to say I agree 100%. TOR being a failure well before launch was blatantly obvious, although I did not post it. GW2 going the same way, ie offering a short term play experience only is also blatantly obvious, although I am also not going to bother posting about it. I am just not into pissing contests, and "they" just do not want to hear it. Also it is not hard to justify a one off $60 spend for this short term experience - as you said this is the best part of GW2.
BTW, I am not criticising you for posting this, by all means keep posting, just don't expect them to thank you for it, even when the whining starts.
Where in the mists did you ever get the idea that GW2 is offering a "short term play experience only"? Tell me, what of the game shows that kind of concept? Let me dig into it and find out....
Jumping Puzzles? Its it the dozens upon dozens of achievement yielding, chest-chasing puzzles that players will chase off the beaten path to accomplish? Almost considered to be mini-dungeons with most containing a small boss fight at the end of it. No, that doesn't seem to encourage short term.
How about that WvWvW? The 4-map spanning siege battle between 3 servers where players constantly get to PvP on a grand scale. Although rankings are stacked up each 2 weeks, this mechanic just screams long term as those server Rankings are going to be a meta-chase for those wanting to be the biggest and best server.
sPvP? Hmm, an eSport mechanic right out of the gate that is mostly map balanced, player level and gear balanced, and will have tournaments. If other eSport games are anything of indication, then this is going to boom into a long think of awesomeness. Also, there are already streams and broadcasts of games from players without the future spectator mode.
It's got to be the PvE, right? I mean, 5 different races and starting zones, 1,000's of Dynamic Events all over the world, 25 different zones, de-leveling to go into lower level zones while still being rewarding, exploration rewards, and many dungeons with multiple story modes, and even personal stories with different paths based on player's choices. For some reason, that doesn't seem so short term. Shucks, not again.
How about crafting? Well, 8 different crafting professions, the player allowing to have 2 at a time but when they drop for another one they get to keep the progress so that they can switch back and not lost that progress later. Hmm...something that encourages grinding out all 8 professions of 400 levels of crafting and trying to discover every single recipe to craft every single item possible in the game. That speaks long term all over it.
Mini-games! That's the short term project. Something that completely distracts the players from their leveling and progression by inserting something that would waste their time while they enjoyed fun....oh, crud, that sounds like long term again.
I think you're fooling yourself saying that Guilld Wars 2 is a "short term experience". There's enough content to keep a person playing every day for an entire year and still not have discovered everything there is to the game.
/applause
I was waiting for a post like this. Informative and well played.
You have the advatage to see that TOR turned out to be gatbage, I knew TOR was going to be garbage well before launch, and I posted it. I took a beating for it. Kind of like I am taking a beating now, for my GWII remarks, but like tor, I will be laughing last on GWII, saying "I told you so" .
The good thing about GWII is it wont leave a bitter taste in your mouth because of subs. people will constanlty play and quit off and on, like they did in GW1. Come back play awhile see whats new and go play another game.
Have to say I agree 100%. TOR being a failure well before launch was blatantly obvious, although I did not post it. GW2 going the same way, ie offering a short term play experience only is also blatantly obvious, although I am also not going to bother posting about it. I am just not into pissing contests, and "they" just do not want to hear it. Also it is not hard to justify a one off $60 spend for this short term experience - as you said this is the best part of GW2.
BTW, I am not criticising you for posting this, by all means keep posting, just don't expect them to thank you for it, even when the whining starts.
Where in the mists did you ever get the idea that GW2 is offering a "short term play experience only"? Tell me, what of the game shows that kind of concept? Let me dig into it and find out....
Jumping Puzzles? Its it the dozens upon dozens of achievement yielding, chest-chasing puzzles that players will chase off the beaten path to accomplish? Almost considered to be mini-dungeons with most containing a small boss fight at the end of it. No, that doesn't seem to encourage short term.
How about that WvWvW? The 4-map spanning siege battle between 3 servers where players constantly get to PvP on a grand scale. Although rankings are stacked up each 2 weeks, this mechanic just screams long term as those server Rankings are going to be a meta-chase for those wanting to be the biggest and best server.
sPvP? Hmm, an eSport mechanic right out of the gate that is mostly map balanced, player level and gear balanced, and will have tournaments. If other eSport games are anything of indication, then this is going to boom into a long think of awesomeness. Also, there are already streams and broadcasts of games from players without the future spectator mode.
It's got to be the PvE, right? I mean, 5 different races and starting zones, 1,000's of Dynamic Events all over the world, 25 different zones, de-leveling to go into lower level zones while still being rewarding, exploration rewards, and many dungeons with multiple story modes, and even personal stories with different paths based on player's choices. For some reason, that doesn't seem so short term. Shucks, not again.
How about crafting? Well, 8 different crafting professions, the player allowing to have 2 at a time but when they drop for another one they get to keep the progress so that they can switch back and not lost that progress later. Hmm...something that encourages grinding out all 8 professions of 400 levels of crafting and trying to discover every single recipe to craft every single item possible in the game. That speaks long term all over it.
Mini-games! That's the short term project. Something that completely distracts the players from their leveling and progression by inserting something that would waste their time while they enjoyed fun....oh, crud, that sounds like long term again.
I think you're fooling yourself saying that Guilld Wars 2 is a "short term experience". There's enough content to keep a person playing every day for an entire year and still not have discovered everything there is to the game.
Lets just say, I hope you are right and that I am wrong.
You have the advatage to see that TOR turned out to be gatbage, I knew TOR was going to be garbage well before launch, and I posted it. I took a beating for it. Kind of like I am taking a beating now, for my GWII remarks, but like tor, I will be laughing last on GWII, saying "I told you so" .
The good thing about GWII is it wont leave a bitter taste in your mouth because of subs. people will constanlty play and quit off and on, like they did in GW1. Come back play awhile see whats new and go play another game.
Have to say I agree 100%. TOR being a failure well before launch was blatantly obvious, although I did not post it. GW2 going the same way, ie offering a short term play experience only is also blatantly obvious, although I am also not going to bother posting about it. I am just not into pissing contests, and "they" just do not want to hear it. Also it is not hard to justify a one off $60 spend for this short term experience - as you said this is the best part of GW2.
BTW, I am not criticising you for posting this, by all means keep posting, just don't expect them to thank you for it, even when the whining starts.
TOR Was a failure before launch due to its mechanics and its focus on the wrong mechanics aka story and it was charging 15 bucks a month.
It seem to be that your biggest problem with guild wars 2 based only on this post is that it doesn't have mechanics designed to extend unnecessarily exttend your time. Most other MMORPG try to extend the length by adding barriers, guild wars 2 actually respects you as a player and doesn't use unneccessary tricks into designed to stall you so you can pay a sub.
Make no mistake, not every mmorpg is designed for everybody. guild wars 2 isn't designed for people that want busy work, you can easily have busy work playing WOW. Guild wars 2 is designed for people that want to have fun, gw2 knows every game will eventually get boring but unlike every game it does not punish you significantly for leaving.
Well I didn't actually say that, and that is not actually my reason for thinking that GW2 will be short lived entertainment for most. I think the mechanics of the game are ultimately going to feel repetitive and grindy - not at first. It seems refreshing new at first. Give it time.
What do the Asian grinders do when they want to westernise their game? They add story context to the questing structure. Now the main "exciting" new element for questing in GW2 is the dynamic events. BUT, unless you are in the right place at the right time (and even go to some effort) the story context is lost, and all you are left with is a series of quest goals, and typically in a narrower range of goals than traditional quest giver type quests allow for. So basically grinding.
Then there is the combat - that's new and exciing isn't it? Well yes and no. They have removed the trinity, to which most of the game's supporters are full of praise for, but they replaced the trinity with what? The trinity allows for group synergy so that the group as a whole is more than the sum of its parts, not to mention enabling of statregy in the group fight mechanic. Now in GW2 you have what? Chaos? Big zerg fights are fun for awhile, but I would expect most jaded MMO fans to want more in the long term.
Then there is the lack of much of anything to strive or compete for, the fact that it is a themepark reliant on developer content to sustain interst etc.
So maybe the PvP side will do it better? Well maybe. If you are into the sPvP predominantly, wouldn't a good MOBA do it better? Then there is the WvWvW. Again probably fun for awhile, but the lack of consequence/reward in this context will ultimately drive away any but the most casual of PvPers.
Again, as I said, fun for awhile, but not the long lasting appeal that many have said they are expecting from it.
I will leave you with this thought - if you go in with the expectation that it is short term entertainment, then there is potential for upside. If you go in expecting this to be the new messiah of games, then there is no upside and plenty of downside.
Hope that helps.
Everything you said is spot on, 100% correct.
These guys are in the honeymoon phase. Everything is perfect. Cold hard reality will set in.
What most of these guys dont understand, is when I only have 1 major concern about a game, its not a bad game (though I do share the same concerns on combat as the above poster). Normally I have a half a page list of big problems. I dont know what future expansions will hold for GWII, but lack of meaningfull content that can keep players playing can be remedied by good expansions, but I cant use potential as part of my current reasoning.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Well I didn't actually say that, and that is not actually my reason for thinking that GW2 will be short lived entertainment for most. I think the mechanics of the game are ultimately going to feel repetitive and grindy - not at first. It seems refreshing new at first. Give it time.
What do the Asian grinders do when they want to westernise their game? They add story context to the questing structure. Now the main "exciting" new element for questing in GW2 is the dynamic events. BUT, unless you are in the right place at the right time (and even go to some effort) the story context is lost, and all you are left with is a series of quest goals, and typically in a narrower range of goals than traditional quest giver type quests allow for. So basically grinding.
What is grinding? In my opinion grinding involves simply killing monsters and then running back to NPC to hand in quest. Yes it is true, there are some dynamic events in GW2 that is grindy, example of this is when NPC asks you to collect items and hand it in to him but majority of the DEs are not grindy. Let me explain why: When WoW first came out people were praising it's quest mechanic for not being grindy because everything had a story behind it. Now guild wars 2 takes this one step furthur. In a typical MMO, a quest giver will tell you his daughter has been kidnappped and you must kill 10 Ogres to rescue her. You go in kill said amount of monsters and return to NPC. In GW2, you actually can see the ogres running in to kidnapp the daughter, you actually run into their camp and defeat some of them until a big boss Ogre comes to challenge you. You defeat the ogres and rescue the daughter. This would be fine by me, BUT now you have to escort the daughter back to her father. I think what sets DEs apart from most other grindy quests is that the things that happen in the quest dialogue actually happens in the game world, you can see with your own eyes. Here take a look at this one DE. Remember this DE occurs in a level 1-15 zone, meaning much higher leveled ones will be more epic and world changing (as said by devs) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CyqGJHTjes&feature=player_detailpage#t=126
You also say that the story context is lost if you aren't at the right place at the right time and I truly understand that. It isn't always fun to come and start doing things without knowing the backstory, specially in GW2 since all the backstory is acted out by the NPCs. BUT you do get some idea about the idea of the story behind the DE from the orange quest text in the top right corner, granted it isn't much. You can also repeat DEs from start to finish. Many times during the BWEs, I've done a DE from middle to finish, and then I had done it again from beginning thinking it was a different DE and only when I had reached the middleish part I had the "Oh... yeah I remember this" moment did I realize it's the same DE. You say GW2 is going to be short lived, I couldn't disagree with you more. Sure some people will hit level 80s within weeks (someone got lvl 80 in 2 BWEs) but you are so used to playing games where the destination is the reward that you simply can't see yourself enjoying the journey. GW2 has many many hidden acheivements from jumping puzzles to hidden nooks and cranny to explore. And since you descale to the zone you are in, you can ALWAYS come back to lower leveled areas to try out new DEs, hearts etc and still have it be fun for you.
Then there is the combat - that's new and exciing isn't it? Well yes and no. They have removed the trinity, to which most of the game's supporters are full of praise for, but they replaced the trinity with what? The trinity allows for group synergy so that the group as a whole is more than the sum of its parts, not to mention enabling of statregy in the group fight mechanic. Now in GW2 you have what? Chaos? Big zerg fights are fun for awhile, but I would expect most jaded MMO fans to want more in the long term.
You are absoulety right. The old trinity system does allow for group synergy. When I had first started playing MMORPGs I had truly loved this idea. I loved that I had a particular role to play to help support my friends. BUT ... over time it became very very boring especially when I type "LF1M - healer/tank" every 15 seconds for 2 hours. You say it enables statregy? I say different. Basically it all consists of healer, tank and DPS. I've known healers to go afk during dungeon boss fights by simply putting something heavy on their heal keybind. It requires NO statregy other than tank goes in, uses argo skills, healer spams 2-3 keys, and rest dpses without stealing argo.
You are right in thinking that there are big zerg fights. BUT what you are experiencing is lower leveled zones where there are tons of characters (for obvious reasons). The devs even posted on their forums saying they made DEs cycle thru very very quickly during the BWEs to try to break up huge groups of players in the starter zones. From personal experience, once you leave the starter zone or even venture out further than the closest huge city, it becomes more reasonable. One of my top moments during BWE3 was taking on a giant boss with only 2 other people.
There is also more strategy in GW2 fighting than most other MMOs. Cross proffession combos + true hit boxes (arrows don't fly through you to hit target behind you) + smart monsters that dodge makes combat one of the best currently. Many times when playing a ranger, I've stood in front of my pet so it didn't die when it was low on hp. I love shooting arrows through a fire wall. Combat in GW2 isn't just about faceslamming your hotkeys, you really do have to think on your feet.
Then there is the lack of much of anything to strive or compete for, the fact that it is a themepark reliant on developer content to sustain interst etc.
So maybe the PvP side will do it better? Well maybe. If you are into the sPvP predominantly, wouldn't a good MOBA do it better? Then there is the WvWvW. Again probably fun for awhile, but the lack of consequence/reward in this context will ultimately drive away any but the most casual of PvPers.
You are right when you say there is a lack of anything to strive for especially if you are so used to WoW type MMORPGs. I think you are so used to the game telling you what to strive for or compete for that you simply can't see that you strive for anything in GW2. Let me give you an example: In many MMORPGs, once you reach the max level you start grinding for gear, you start putting in expensive gems (whatever equivalent you use in games), you start doing raids as a second job. There isn't a whole lot you can do, you can't go to lower level to try out that new area they just added or that new noobie dungeon because lets face it, your time is important and you don't want to waste it doing something that gives no rewards. This is what happened to me in previous MMOs, I would reach endgame, and almost completely stop playing because I was tired of doing the same raids/dungeons again & again and wasting 2-3 hours looking for healer/tank/whatever role I needed. I would ultimately "quit" said game, until a new patch or update would come, I would rarely log in to do anything other than the occational daily.
Now lets take GW2 : Guild Wars 2 doesn't tell you what to strive for. It doesn't say "You MUST try this new area and get this awesome new gear otherwise you will be outshined by others" Once you hit level 80 in GW2, the whole game is literally your playground. You can go "grind" for cosmetic gear, redo/do some more jumping puzzles, redo/do dynamic events, redo/do dungeons runs, explore. ANYTHING you want. No longer will you feel that you wasted 2 hours of your raiding time because you couldn't find that specific NPC to hand in that damn quest.
Again, as I said, fun for awhile, but not the long lasting appeal that many have said they are expecting from it.
I will leave you with this thought - if you go in with the expectation that it is short term entertainment, then there is potential for upside. If you go in expecting this to be the new messiah of games, then there is no upside and plenty of downside.
It ended with almost 105,000 supposedly unique hits for the day, which is roughly 4 to 5 times as many as it has been averaging daily over the last few weeks. There's nothing significant in the news or features that would explain such a dramatic increase.
Again, this has happened before with other games. I really doubt these are actually legitimate hits.
You have the advatage to see that TOR turned out to be gatbage, I knew TOR was going to be garbage well before launch, and I posted it. I took a beating for it. Kind of like I am taking a beating now, for my GWII remarks, but like tor, I will be laughing last on GWII, saying "I told you so" .
The good thing about GWII is it wont leave a bitter taste in your mouth because of subs. people will constanlty play and quit off and on, like they did in GW1. Come back play awhile see whats new and go play another game.
Have to say I agree 100%. TOR being a failure well before launch was blatantly obvious, although I did not post it. GW2 going the same way, ie offering a short term play experience only is also blatantly obvious, although I am also not going to bother posting about it. I am just not into pissing contests, and "they" just do not want to hear it. Also it is not hard to justify a one off $60 spend for this short term experience - as you said this is the best part of GW2.
BTW, I am not criticising you for posting this, by all means keep posting, just don't expect them to thank you for it, even when the whining starts.
-toot
crap
Your problem with guild wars 2 seems to be that its a game. Every game eventually becomes repetitive. Grindy=/=repetitive F.Y.I.
You are right, eventually guild wars 2 will become boring to me and I am going to quit it just like I quit Guild wars 1. But then eventually, I am going to return to it, just like I return to guild wars 1 multiple times over the 6 years I played it. I play games to have fun, not to play for the sake of playing like you seem to be do. Every game has a beginning and an End, the End is dependent on the individual. I do know this, by the time I do get bored of guild wars 2, I would have gotten my moneys worth out of the game.
Going back to my original point that guild wars 2 is a game. Yes, I will miss dynamic events, THAT is why they are called DYNAMIC events not quest because they will happen whether I am there or not. Also by your other statement it is apparent you haven't actually played the game. Dynamic events happen all the time, will I miss some of them yes, but they will be other dynamice events, I don't need to do any specific dynamic event because most of them are self contained.
While guild wars 2 combat is better than most mmorpg, its not really something to write home about. Yes, its better than most mmorpg combat, but it is still crap compared to all the action games I primarily play on the console side. Honestly, my ultimate combat system would be dragons dogma, dmc or gow, but alas the limitation of MMOs do not allow for such a precise combat system. fortunately, i don't play mmorpg for its mainly for its combat, but for the sum of its parts.
So you like the trinity good for you, but all the consequences you listed as not the result of the removal of the trinity unfortunately. if you actually have played a game with sieging you would understand, but since you clearly havent let me explain. When I played aion, even with the trinity people were more incline to zerg, is just human nature, without any organization there is chaos. But once guilds arise, they will be organization. It happen to us in aion and it will happen in guild wars 2.
To conclude, your issues with guild wars 2 seem to be manufactured and you are reaching. It's almost as if you are complaining that guild wars 2 is an MMORPG and not real ife. you complain about it eventually getting boring. you complain that the game will continue without your royal highness ELsandman around to do the content. You complain about guild wars 2 removal of the trinity and provide a stupid consequence of its removal.
It ended with almost 105,000 supposedly unique hits for the day, which is roughly 4 to 5 times as many as it has been averaging daily over the last few weeks. There's nothing significant in the news or features that would explain such a dramatic increase.
Again, this has happened before with other games. I really doubt these are actually legitimate hits.
Sigh, does this really matter? Is there any doubt that GW2 got more hits than the other games on this site? Maybe something outside the typical gaming websites influenced this, maybe not.
Even if this is not legitimate (something I really don't care about in this case, as GW2 already has the most hits for 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 6 months, and 1 year), it isn't exactly effecting anything...
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
It ended with almost 105,000 supposedly unique hits for the day, which is roughly 4 to 5 times as many as it has been averaging daily over the last few weeks. There's nothing significant in the news or features that would explain such a dramatic increase.
Again, this has happened before with other games. I really doubt these are actually legitimate hits.
Sigh, does this really matter? Is there any doubt that GW2 got more hits than the other games on this site? Maybe something outside the typical gaming websites influenced this, maybe not.
Even if this is not legitimate (something I really don't care about in this case, as GW2 already has the most hits for 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 6 months, and 1 year), it isn't exactly effecting anything...
Just maybe it has something to do with guildwars2 being rated as the #1 upcoming PC game on both IGN and gamespot? Not #1 MMO, #1 game.
The hype train has almost passed. Longest fricken train I've ever seen, but thank god, it's almost passed. Finally it will be released and after the honeymoon period we probably won't hear much about it anymore.
The hype train has almost passed. Longest fricken train I've ever seen, but thank god, it's almost passed. Finally it will be released and after the honeymoon period we probably won't hear much about it anymore.
Just keep teling yourself it's hype. Eventually you will believe it.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Ehm..no fanboy here I haven't even played the beta
I kept a reasonable eye on the frontpage popularity during SWTOR's release approach and it might have been somewhat more populair (although I think not) saying GW2 populairty doesn't hold a candle to SWTOR's is nonsense.
And you saying GW2 will fall into oblivion confirms you are spouting nonsense on a regular base. Guild Wars 1 was a very popular game, all signs ere there GW2 will be even more popular.
I dont see GW fan fairs all over the US. On the other hand I have seen countless SW fan fairs (not been to one). So again GW does not even in the same ball park as SW, When I say SW, I am not refering to tor, when I refer to TOR i will say TOR or SWTOR. So go re-read my post.
GW2 lacks meaningful end game content to keep people really playing the game period. I have been around this genre long enough to know what keeps people playing. Go enjoy your game but dont come back crying when boredom sets in, because it will.
You should differentiate when it comes to fan fairs cause they are based on 99% to the movies and sw universe as such, not to the games. The games are just the little extra. The movies exist since the 70s after all.
Due to this you can't compare the guild wars universe with the sw universe at all cause the sw universe is over 30 years "older".
As about your opinion upon the game, I can only say its your opinion only but definately not a fact cause I know many people as also myself definately won't be "crying" but rather will be enjoying the game to its fullest.
GW1 was the same when it comes to gear and the endgame was similar aswell so after 7 years I'm still logging in and see a healthy population in various areas.
Of course not as much as 5 years ago or in the beginning but still.
The same will definately happen with GW2 and in GW2s case I think it will be even more due to the differences of the design and the possibilities it offers to the developers to add things overtime as also for the player.
It ended with almost 105,000 supposedly unique hits for the day, which is roughly 4 to 5 times as many as it has been averaging daily over the last few weeks. There's nothing significant in the news or features that would explain such a dramatic increase.
Again, this has happened before with other games. I really doubt these are actually legitimate hits.
The hype train has almost passed. Longest fricken train I've ever seen, but thank god, it's almost passed. Finally it will be released and after the honeymoon period we probably won't hear much about it anymore.
You seem to have a very sad view of things.
"Grrr look at all these people getting excited and having fun talking about a game that interests them, how dare they do that in a setting that caters to their desire that I can easily avoid and never have to look at. It just makes me so miserable."
The hype train has almost passed. Longest fricken train I've ever seen, but thank god, it's almost passed. Finally it will be released and after the honeymoon period we probably won't hear much about it anymore.
You probably wouldn't have to hear about it at all if you didn't spend so much time hanging out in the GW2 forums.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
The hype train has almost passed. Longest fricken train I've ever seen, but thank god, it's almost passed. Finally it will be released and after the honeymoon period we probably won't hear much about it anymore.
You probably wouldn't have to hear about it at all if you didn't spend so much time hanging out in the GW2 forums.
Right becuase GW2 threads aren't pasted all over the ticker.
The hype train has almost passed. Longest fricken train I've ever seen, but thank god, it's almost passed. Finally it will be released and after the honeymoon period we probably won't hear much about it anymore.
Just keep teling yourself it's hype. Eventually you will believe it.
Lol, someone smashed by the hype train trying to get others to get hit as well. Sorry, this ain't my first rodeo, I don't buy games based off their fanboy hype anymore.
The hype train has almost passed. Longest fricken train I've ever seen, but thank god, it's almost passed. Finally it will be released and after the honeymoon period we probably won't hear much about it anymore.
You seem to have a very sad view of things.
"Grrr look at all these people getting excited and having fun talking about a game that interests them, how dare they do that in a setting that caters to their desire that I can easily avoid and never have to look at. It just makes me so miserable."
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I don't care if people are excited for something. It's the fact that almost every thread turns into some argument relating to GW2 in every other games forum and in general.
These guys are in the honeymoon phase. Everything is perfect. Cold hard reality will set in.
What most of these guys dont understand, is when I only have 1 major concern about a game, its not a bad game (though I do share the same concerns on combat as the above poster). Normally I have a half a page list of big problems. I dont know what future expansions will hold for GWII, but lack of meaningfull content that can keep players playing can be remedied by good expansions, but I cant use potential as part of my current reasoning.
What criteria are you using to make this statement?
In other words, other than your assumptions about what is and is not in the game, how do you know that it does not already include meaningful content to keep players playing?
I, personally, have no idea if it does or not because I haven't seen past the level 35 zone. Hell, I didn't even see all of that.
Yet we have a TON of posts pre-launch with more or less the same people saying "yeah it's a fine game but it won't last." But other than knowing that it won't have traditional raids, what data do you have that others don't that supports this conclusion?
Has grinding the same 8 boss raid in WoW since November of 2011 helped with retention?
Finally, if you look at games that do have traditional raids, in how many of them are people running out of things to do in the first couple of weeks other than a gear treadmill (e.g. running the same thing repeatedly to get a certain drop)? There are multiple posts on this board about this issue in other recently-released games. There's a 200+ page thread on the wow forums entitled "we consume content too fast"- it's fascinating.
So advocating for raids, which are generally seen by between 5 and 10% of the gameplay community, doesn't seem to be the "messiah" that some people claim it is to player retention. Hell, WoW even implemented LFR so that content could be more accessable by more people, yet the raiders cried over that because it made them feel less special.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
There would seem to be a flaw in the position that GW2 players will run out of content and quit after 1-3 months, this isn’t a sub game, there won’t be pressure to burn through at max speed to get your money’s worth.
With swtor, Rift, etc the lack of endgame at launch was a problem for all but the alterholics, as subs encourage a mentality that causes burn-out or burn-through, but GW1 didn’t do that, nor do other B2P or F2P games. Out of habit mmo players will still go fast at first, but Arenanet intends the game to be picked up, played and dropped until the desire to play again.
As even one critic here has acknowledged there will be no resentment when someone stops playing as there is no sense that you should play indefinitely, just when you want, “they’ll keep a light of for you” as they say. That casual, open invitation combined with the inevitably large box sales means that there is no reasonable case to make for GW2 being a disaster.
That GW2 client logo on your desktop won't mock you with the need for a sub renewal in order to start it up again. Constant player retention will be lower, but returning ones will be higher, a smoother pop curve as the player's time will be more spread out, in a more natural pattern. Better for the games rep, and player morale, no more articles on massive sub loses and population declines.
There also isn’t enough data to judge on the state of the endgame anyway, we will just have to see what emerges, but the pvp and scaling content should be more than enough for many, and certainly less depressing than being forced to grind instances. Remember, with no sub, there’s no need to justify to yourself (or for devs to justify though grind) constant play, a simple 1 to 1 comparison with SWTOR or other mmos will not apply.
oh i see we have a lot of fortune-tellers here... they know it will be fail as SWTOR even before release just from few beta days... SWTOR had good "story telling NPCs" but that was ALL... pvp sux, pve questing system sux, end-game was fail too... but... GW2 is different... if you dont see difference between these two games... you are fail MMO gamer who know nothing about MMO...
Well I didn't actually say that, and that is not actually my reason for thinking that GW2 will be short lived entertainment for most. I think the mechanics of the game are ultimately going to feel repetitive and grindy - not at first. It seems refreshing new at first. Give it time.
What do the Asian grinders do when they want to westernise their game? They add story context to the questing structure. Now the main "exciting" new element for questing in GW2 is the dynamic events. BUT, unless you are in the right place at the right time (and even go to some effort) the story context is lost, and all you are left with is a series of quest goals, and typically in a narrower range of goals than traditional quest giver type quests allow for. So basically grinding.
What is grinding? In my opinion grinding involves simply killing monsters and then running back to NPC to hand in quest. Yes it is true, there are some dynamic events in GW2 that is grindy, example of this is when NPC asks you to collect items and hand it in to him but majority of the DEs are not grindy. Let me explain why: When WoW first came out people were praising it's quest mechanic for not being grindy because everything had a story behind it. Now guild wars 2 takes this one step furthur. In a typical MMO, a quest giver will tell you his daughter has been kidnappped and you must kill 10 Ogres to rescue her. You go in kill said amount of monsters and return to NPC. In GW2, you actually can see the ogres running in to kidnapp the daughter, you actually run into their camp and defeat some of them until a big boss Ogre comes to challenge you. You defeat the ogres and rescue the daughter. This would be fine by me, BUT now you have to escort the daughter back to her father. I think what sets DEs apart from most other grindy quests is that the things that happen in the quest dialogue actually happens in the game world, you can see with your own eyes. Here take a look at this one DE. Remember this DE occurs in a level 1-15 zone, meaning much higher leveled ones will be more epic and world changing (as said by devs) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CyqGJHTjes&feature=player_detailpage#t=126
You also say that the story context is lost if you aren't at the right place at the right time and I truly understand that. It isn't always fun to come and start doing things without knowing the backstory, specially in GW2 since all the backstory is acted out by the NPCs. BUT you do get some idea about the idea of the story behind the DE from the orange quest text in the top right corner, granted it isn't much. You can also repeat DEs from start to finish. Many times during the BWEs, I've done a DE from middle to finish, and then I had done it again from beginning thinking it was a different DE and only when I had reached the middleish part I had the "Oh... yeah I remember this" moment did I realize it's the same DE. You say GW2 is going to be short lived, I couldn't disagree with you more. Sure some people will hit level 80s within weeks (someone got lvl 80 in 2 BWEs) but you are so used to playing games where the destination is the reward that you simply can't see yourself enjoying the journey. GW2 has many many hidden acheivements from jumping puzzles to hidden nooks and cranny to explore. And since you descale to the zone you are in, you can ALWAYS come back to lower leveled areas to try out new DEs, hearts etc and still have it be fun for you.
Then there is the combat - that's new and exciing isn't it? Well yes and no. They have removed the trinity, to which most of the game's supporters are full of praise for, but they replaced the trinity with what? The trinity allows for group synergy so that the group as a whole is more than the sum of its parts, not to mention enabling of statregy in the group fight mechanic. Now in GW2 you have what? Chaos? Big zerg fights are fun for awhile, but I would expect most jaded MMO fans to want more in the long term.
You are absoulety right. The old trinity system does allow for group synergy. When I had first started playing MMORPGs I had truly loved this idea. I loved that I had a particular role to play to help support my friends. BUT ... over time it became very very boring especially when I type "LF1M - healer/tank" every 15 seconds for 2 hours. You say it enables statregy? I say different. Basically it all consists of healer, tank and DPS. I've known healers to go afk during dungeon boss fights by simply putting something heavy on their heal keybind. It requires NO statregy other than tank goes in, uses argo skills, healer spams 2-3 keys, and rest dpses without stealing argo.
You are right in thinking that there are big zerg fights. BUT what you are experiencing is lower leveled zones where there are tons of characters (for obvious reasons). The devs even posted on their forums saying they made DEs cycle thru very very quickly during the BWEs to try to break up huge groups of players in the starter zones. From personal experience, once you leave the starter zone or even venture out further than the closest huge city, it becomes more reasonable. One of my top moments during BWE3 was taking on a giant boss with only 2 other people.
There is also more strategy in GW2 fighting than most other MMOs. Cross proffession combos + true hit boxes (arrows don't fly through you to hit target behind you) + smart monsters that dodge makes combat one of the best currently. Many times when playing a ranger, I've stood in front of my pet so it didn't die when it was low on hp. I love shooting arrows through a fire wall. Combat in GW2 isn't just about faceslamming your hotkeys, you really do have to think on your feet.
Then there is the lack of much of anything to strive or compete for, the fact that it is a themepark reliant on developer content to sustain interst etc.
So maybe the PvP side will do it better? Well maybe. If you are into the sPvP predominantly, wouldn't a good MOBA do it better? Then there is the WvWvW. Again probably fun for awhile, but the lack of consequence/reward in this context will ultimately drive away any but the most casual of PvPers.
You are right when you say there is a lack of anything to strive for especially if you are so used to WoW type MMORPGs. I think you are so used to the game telling you what to strive for or compete for that you simply can't see that you strive for anything in GW2. Let me give you an example: In many MMORPGs, once you reach the max level you start grinding for gear, you start putting in expensive gems (whatever equivalent you use in games), you start doing raids as a second job. There isn't a whole lot you can do, you can't go to lower level to try out that new area they just added or that new noobie dungeon because lets face it, your time is important and you don't want to waste it doing something that gives no rewards. This is what happened to me in previous MMOs, I would reach endgame, and almost completely stop playing because I was tired of doing the same raids/dungeons again & again and wasting 2-3 hours looking for healer/tank/whatever role I needed. I would ultimately "quit" said game, until a new patch or update would come, I would rarely log in to do anything other than the occational daily.
Now lets take GW2 : Guild Wars 2 doesn't tell you what to strive for. It doesn't say "You MUST try this new area and get this awesome new gear otherwise you will be outshined by others" Once you hit level 80 in GW2, the whole game is literally your playground. You can go "grind" for cosmetic gear, redo/do some more jumping puzzles, redo/do dynamic events, redo/do dungeons runs, explore. ANYTHING you want. No longer will you feel that you wasted 2 hours of your raiding time because you couldn't find that specific NPC to hand in that damn quest.
Again, as I said, fun for awhile, but not the long lasting appeal that many have said they are expecting from it.
I will leave you with this thought - if you go in with the expectation that it is short term entertainment, then there is potential for upside. If you go in expecting this to be the new messiah of games, then there is no upside and plenty of downside.
Hope that helps.
Yaoming36, you tell me if you want me to respond to this. You went to the effort of creating a well thought out response, so I will leave it up to you.
Comments
Well I didn't actually say that, and that is not actually my reason for thinking that GW2 will be short lived entertainment for most. I think the mechanics of the game are ultimately going to feel repetitive and grindy - not at first. It seems refreshing new at first. Give it time.
What do the Asian grinders do when they want to westernise their game? They add story context to the questing structure. Now the main "exciting" new element for questing in GW2 is the dynamic events. BUT, unless you are in the right place at the right time (and even go to some effort) the story context is lost, and all you are left with is a series of quest goals, and typically in a narrower range of goals than traditional quest giver type quests allow for. So basically grinding.
Then there is the combat - that's new and exciing isn't it? Well yes and no. They have removed the trinity, to which most of the game's supporters are full of praise for, but they replaced the trinity with what? The trinity allows for group synergy so that the group as a whole is more than the sum of its parts, not to mention enabling of statregy in the group fight mechanic. Now in GW2 you have what? Chaos? Big zerg fights are fun for awhile, but I would expect most jaded MMO fans to want more in the long term.
Then there is the lack of much of anything to strive or compete for, the fact that it is a themepark reliant on developer content to sustain interst etc.
So maybe the PvP side will do it better? Well maybe. If you are into the sPvP predominantly, wouldn't a good MOBA do it better? Then there is the WvWvW. Again probably fun for awhile, but the lack of consequence/reward in this context will ultimately drive away any but the most casual of PvPers.
Again, as I said, fun for awhile, but not the long lasting appeal that many have said they are expecting from it.
I will leave you with this thought - if you go in with the expectation that it is short term entertainment, then there is potential for upside. If you go in expecting this to be the new messiah of games, then there is no upside and plenty of downside.
Hope that helps.
/applause
I was waiting for a post like this. Informative and well played.
Lets just say, I hope you are right and that I am wrong.
Everything you said is spot on, 100% correct.
These guys are in the honeymoon phase. Everything is perfect. Cold hard reality will set in.
What most of these guys dont understand, is when I only have 1 major concern about a game, its not a bad game (though I do share the same concerns on combat as the above poster). Normally I have a half a page list of big problems. I dont know what future expansions will hold for GWII, but lack of meaningfull content that can keep players playing can be remedied by good expansions, but I cant use potential as part of my current reasoning.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
You are absoulety right. The old trinity system does allow for group synergy. When I had first started playing MMORPGs I had truly loved this idea. I loved that I had a particular role to play to help support my friends. BUT ... over time it became very very boring especially when I type "LF1M - healer/tank" every 15 seconds for 2 hours. You say it enables statregy? I say different. Basically it all consists of healer, tank and DPS. I've known healers to go afk during dungeon boss fights by simply putting something heavy on their heal keybind. It requires NO statregy other than tank goes in, uses argo skills, healer spams 2-3 keys, and rest dpses without stealing argo.
You are right in thinking that there are big zerg fights. BUT what you are experiencing is lower leveled zones where there are tons of characters (for obvious reasons). The devs even posted on their forums saying they made DEs cycle thru very very quickly during the BWEs to try to break up huge groups of players in the starter zones. From personal experience, once you leave the starter zone or even venture out further than the closest huge city, it becomes more reasonable. One of my top moments during BWE3 was taking on a giant boss with only 2 other people.
There is also more strategy in GW2 fighting than most other MMOs. Cross proffession combos + true hit boxes (arrows don't fly through you to hit target behind you) + smart monsters that dodge makes combat one of the best currently. Many times when playing a ranger, I've stood in front of my pet so it didn't die when it was low on hp. I love shooting arrows through a fire wall. Combat in GW2 isn't just about faceslamming your hotkeys, you really do have to think on your feet.
It ended with almost 105,000 supposedly unique hits for the day, which is roughly 4 to 5 times as many as it has been averaging daily over the last few weeks. There's nothing significant in the news or features that would explain such a dramatic increase.
Again, this has happened before with other games. I really doubt these are actually legitimate hits.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Some people in this thread need to recheck what they really want.
Every sandbox mmo I've played has multitudes more grind than GW2.
Your problem with guild wars 2 seems to be that its a game. Every game eventually becomes repetitive. Grindy=/=repetitive F.Y.I.
You are right, eventually guild wars 2 will become boring to me and I am going to quit it just like I quit Guild wars 1. But then eventually, I am going to return to it, just like I return to guild wars 1 multiple times over the 6 years I played it. I play games to have fun, not to play for the sake of playing like you seem to be do. Every game has a beginning and an End, the End is dependent on the individual. I do know this, by the time I do get bored of guild wars 2, I would have gotten my moneys worth out of the game.
Going back to my original point that guild wars 2 is a game. Yes, I will miss dynamic events, THAT is why they are called DYNAMIC events not quest because they will happen whether I am there or not. Also by your other statement it is apparent you haven't actually played the game. Dynamic events happen all the time, will I miss some of them yes, but they will be other dynamice events, I don't need to do any specific dynamic event because most of them are self contained.
While guild wars 2 combat is better than most mmorpg, its not really something to write home about. Yes, its better than most mmorpg combat, but it is still crap compared to all the action games I primarily play on the console side. Honestly, my ultimate combat system would be dragons dogma, dmc or gow, but alas the limitation of MMOs do not allow for such a precise combat system. fortunately, i don't play mmorpg for its mainly for its combat, but for the sum of its parts.
So you like the trinity good for you, but all the consequences you listed as not the result of the removal of the trinity unfortunately. if you actually have played a game with sieging you would understand, but since you clearly havent let me explain. When I played aion, even with the trinity people were more incline to zerg, is just human nature, without any organization there is chaos. But once guilds arise, they will be organization. It happen to us in aion and it will happen in guild wars 2.
To conclude, your issues with guild wars 2 seem to be manufactured and you are reaching. It's almost as if you are complaining that guild wars 2 is an MMORPG and not real ife. you complain about it eventually getting boring. you complain that the game will continue without your royal highness ELsandman around to do the content. You complain about guild wars 2 removal of the trinity and provide a stupid consequence of its removal.
Sigh, does this really matter? Is there any doubt that GW2 got more hits than the other games on this site? Maybe something outside the typical gaming websites influenced this, maybe not.
Even if this is not legitimate (something I really don't care about in this case, as GW2 already has the most hits for 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 6 months, and 1 year), it isn't exactly effecting anything...
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Just maybe it has something to do with guildwars2 being rated as the #1 upcoming PC game on both IGN and gamespot? Not #1 MMO, #1 game.
The hype train has almost passed. Longest fricken train I've ever seen, but thank god, it's almost passed. Finally it will be released and after the honeymoon period we probably won't hear much about it anymore.
Just keep teling yourself it's hype. Eventually you will believe it.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
You should differentiate when it comes to fan fairs cause they are based on 99% to the movies and sw universe as such, not to the games. The games are just the little extra. The movies exist since the 70s after all.
Due to this you can't compare the guild wars universe with the sw universe at all cause the sw universe is over 30 years "older".
As about your opinion upon the game, I can only say its your opinion only but definately not a fact cause I know many people as also myself definately won't be "crying" but rather will be enjoying the game to its fullest.
GW1 was the same when it comes to gear and the endgame was similar aswell so after 7 years I'm still logging in and see a healthy population in various areas.
Of course not as much as 5 years ago or in the beginning but still.
The same will definately happen with GW2 and in GW2s case I think it will be even more due to the differences of the design and the possibilities it offers to the developers to add things overtime as also for the player.
Hmmmm.
You seem to have a very sad view of things.
"Grrr look at all these people getting excited and having fun talking about a game that interests them, how dare they do that in a setting that caters to their desire that I can easily avoid and never have to look at. It just makes me so miserable."
You probably wouldn't have to hear about it at all if you didn't spend so much time hanging out in the GW2 forums.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Right becuase GW2 threads aren't pasted all over the ticker.
Lol, someone smashed by the hype train trying to get others to get hit as well. Sorry, this ain't my first rodeo, I don't buy games based off their fanboy hype anymore.
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I don't care if people are excited for something. It's the fact that almost every thread turns into some argument relating to GW2 in every other games forum and in general.
What criteria are you using to make this statement?
In other words, other than your assumptions about what is and is not in the game, how do you know that it does not already include meaningful content to keep players playing?
I, personally, have no idea if it does or not because I haven't seen past the level 35 zone. Hell, I didn't even see all of that.
Yet we have a TON of posts pre-launch with more or less the same people saying "yeah it's a fine game but it won't last." But other than knowing that it won't have traditional raids, what data do you have that others don't that supports this conclusion?
Has grinding the same 8 boss raid in WoW since November of 2011 helped with retention?
Finally, if you look at games that do have traditional raids, in how many of them are people running out of things to do in the first couple of weeks other than a gear treadmill (e.g. running the same thing repeatedly to get a certain drop)? There are multiple posts on this board about this issue in other recently-released games. There's a 200+ page thread on the wow forums entitled "we consume content too fast"- it's fascinating.
So advocating for raids, which are generally seen by between 5 and 10% of the gameplay community, doesn't seem to be the "messiah" that some people claim it is to player retention. Hell, WoW even implemented LFR so that content could be more accessable by more people, yet the raiders cried over that because it made them feel less special.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
There would seem to be a flaw in the position that GW2 players will run out of content and quit after 1-3 months, this isn’t a sub game, there won’t be pressure to burn through at max speed to get your money’s worth.
With swtor, Rift, etc the lack of endgame at launch was a problem for all but the alterholics, as subs encourage a mentality that causes burn-out or burn-through, but GW1 didn’t do that, nor do other B2P or F2P games. Out of habit mmo players will still go fast at first, but Arenanet intends the game to be picked up, played and dropped until the desire to play again.
As even one critic here has acknowledged there will be no resentment when someone stops playing as there is no sense that you should play indefinitely, just when you want, “they’ll keep a light of for you” as they say. That casual, open invitation combined with the inevitably large box sales means that there is no reasonable case to make for GW2 being a disaster.
That GW2 client logo on your desktop won't mock you with the need for a sub renewal in order to start it up again. Constant player retention will be lower, but returning ones will be higher, a smoother pop curve as the player's time will be more spread out, in a more natural pattern. Better for the games rep, and player morale, no more articles on massive sub loses and population declines.
There also isn’t enough data to judge on the state of the endgame anyway, we will just have to see what emerges, but the pvp and scaling content should be more than enough for many, and certainly less depressing than being forced to grind instances. Remember, with no sub, there’s no need to justify to yourself (or for devs to justify though grind) constant play, a simple 1 to 1 comparison with SWTOR or other mmos will not apply.
oh i see we have a lot of fortune-tellers here... they know it will be fail as SWTOR even before release just from few beta days... SWTOR had good "story telling NPCs" but that was ALL... pvp sux, pve questing system sux, end-game was fail too... but... GW2 is different... if you dont see difference between these two games... you are fail MMO gamer who know nothing about MMO...
Yaoming36, you tell me if you want me to respond to this. You went to the effort of creating a well thought out response, so I will leave it up to you.
I am happy to respond or leave it alone it.