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TSW open skill system no better than conventional trees?

eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

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  • JohnnymmoJohnnymmo Salt lake, UTPosts: 99Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

     

    So the beauty is that you can Play different builds. Single mob, aoe mob, tank, heal, etc etc with one char. Makes things more interesting
  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    Actually, following a specific build, such as a Deck, early in the game won't work a lot of times.  The reason is that a lot of the Decks pay off at the end of the abilties you must buy with your AP.   This can leave people equipping the wrong actives and passives and leaving themselves weak.  Also, many players are only using one weapon early on in their Abilities, and they are robbing themselves of additional DPS.

    I don't follow any specific build, althought I do consult with other tanks to discuss what works best for that job in the high-end dungeons.  While playing a DPS role, or questing, I will often adjust my skills for better survivability, or more DPS, depending on my needs.

    The thing is, there are a finite number of active abilities to use for each weapon.  Some are more effective than others, and some are close enough to other skills that you can just chose what you like best.

    Also, what is fun in dungeons, is that the entire team can change their gear or build on the fly to adjust to a given boss or situation.  This helps balance out the group to make up for strengths and weaknesses.  I've been in several dungeons where we had to try different tweaks on our builds and gear to get passed a boss, and I always enjoy that.  Also, sometimes people have to trade roles, such as throwing in some off-heals, or a little more tank, or swapping roles completely.

    To each their own.  If you feel the need to follow specific builds rather than explore and adjust your abilities, then you are making a choice to do so.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    Has nothing to do with the skill system but everything to do with how the developers designed the content.

     

    As a Tank you need to have multiple stuns (inturrupts) as a Healer you need cleanse (Pistol tree) and as a DPS you need to be able to purge ( Elem and Shotgun).  This is for nightmare mode dungeons.  Again this is a developer implemented hurdle and not a flaw of the skill system.  Plus its infinetly easier to DPS as a ranged class which is also another design flaw of the developers so it further pigeonholes characters into specific choices.

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  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    I actually wouldn't mind if Funcom made the bosses more dynamic in what they can do, and in their strength.  This way, each time you run a dungeon it's a little different, and you may have to adjust your team's tactics and builds per situation more often.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • CrepitusCrepitus Sainte-Angele-De-Monnoir, QCPosts: 49Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    That's the biggest complaint I have so far with TSW. I thought I was free to build a character the way I wanted with the skills I wanted but you get to certain points in the game where you really need a certain type of skills to progress. Healing to be more specific, there was some fights I wouldn't been able to overcome without some healings skills. I had to stop my progression and redo quests to get more APs and build a side build for these types of fights. Some kind of respec tools would be nice.

    Other then that, the game is  really fun if you're into this kind of game.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by Crepitus
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    That's the biggest complaint I have so far with TSW. I thought I was free to build a character the way I wanted with the skills I wanted but you get to certain points in the game where you really need a certain type of skills to progress. Healing to be more specific, there was some fights I wouldn't been able to overcome without some healings skills. I had to stop my progression and redo quests to get more APs and build a side build for these types of fights. Some kind of respec tools would be nice.

    Other then that, the game is  really fun if you're into this kind of game.

    Actually, there are different ways to approach impasses like this.  Getting newer skills is one, or even changing your gear.  As a tank, I find that when I am solo-questing as DPS, I often want to add some tank gear for increased survivability.  I don't even use heals. People usually run into trouble because they fail to adjust their approach as the game was designed for them to do.

    You should be carrying gear and skills for more than one build so you can play with hybrid approaches to problems.  I find this to be a blast personally.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    these were the issues that i talked about at the begining when it released and why i left the game myself. You are forced into specific builds for specific tasks and that limits the open illusion of the skill system and my biggest gripe besides pvp. I just hated how you have a few builds that work and the rest are crap. If i want to use one weapon for example and pick and trade between the other weapon sets passives thats an open skill system not an illusion . The secret world is not an open skill system anymore then rifts soul system or SWG open system before the NGE. As it stands when i left some might of changed you had to weapon swap constantly just to do open world content and it takes the fun out of what you want to build as your main build. If you solo you take a rifle build with sword , if you want to tank you take a hammer build, if you want to heal you go with blood etc etc. Its just not a system that is spectacular and quite boring at its roots.
  • CrepitusCrepitus Sainte-Angele-De-Monnoir, QCPosts: 49Member
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Crepitus
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    That's the biggest complaint I have so far with TSW. I thought I was free to build a character the way I wanted with the skills I wanted but you get to certain points in the game where you really need a certain type of skills to progress. Healing to be more specific, there was some fights I wouldn't been able to overcome without some healings skills. I had to stop my progression and redo quests to get more APs and build a side build for these types of fights. Some kind of respec tools would be nice.

    Other then that, the game is  really fun if you're into this kind of game.

    Actually, there are different ways to approach impasses like this.  Getting newer skills is one, or even changing your gear.  As a tank, I find that when I am solo-questing as DPS, I often want to add some tank gear for increased survivability.  I don't even use heals. People usually run into trouble because they fail to adjust their approach as the game was designed for them to do.

    Well you have a point. The thing is when we started, we started as a group of friends with a specific role each and we got to certain solo instances were some of us couldn't progress because of their build were too group oriented. 

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    what is that build? I'm yet to find it.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Crepitus
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    That's the biggest complaint I have so far with TSW. I thought I was free to build a character the way I wanted with the skills I wanted but you get to certain points in the game where you really need a certain type of skills to progress. Healing to be more specific, there was some fights I wouldn't been able to overcome without some healings skills. I had to stop my progression and redo quests to get more APs and build a side build for these types of fights. Some kind of respec tools would be nice.

    Other then that, the game is  really fun if you're into this kind of game.

    There's more than one way to skin a cat. Adding healing is how you chose to overcome. Now there are instances where you will need a purge or an interupt. Yes someone will be expected to be have these things.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by Crepitus
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Crepitus
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    That's the biggest complaint I have so far with TSW. I thought I was free to build a character the way I wanted with the skills I wanted but you get to certain points in the game where you really need a certain type of skills to progress. Healing to be more specific, there was some fights I wouldn't been able to overcome without some healings skills. I had to stop my progression and redo quests to get more APs and build a side build for these types of fights. Some kind of respec tools would be nice.

    Other then that, the game is  really fun if you're into this kind of game.

    Actually, there are different ways to approach impasses like this.  Getting newer skills is one, or even changing your gear.  As a tank, I find that when I am solo-questing as DPS, I often want to add some tank gear for increased survivability.  I don't even use heals. People usually run into trouble because they fail to adjust their approach as the game was designed for them to do.

    Well you have a point. The thing is when we started, we started as a group of friends with a specific role each and we got to certain solo instances were some of us couldn't progress because of their build were too group oriented. 

    Sometimes going in with a specific role doesn't work.  I was in an elite dungeon as the group's tank and to get past one of the bosses, I had to dial back my tank ability and add some DPS to help down the boss faster. (actually, I've done this several times)  The additional DPS put me at risk as the tank, but it also helped us take the boss down.  I've seen people remove some DPS to add off-heals, I've had groups where we ran two tanks to handle multiple heavy-hitting bosses, etc.  Being able to adjust makes Pick Up Groups much more viable, and I would dare say more fun, IMO.

    If you (not you specifically) are one of those people who ragequits because you and your team refuse to try different tactics, then no one can help you.  I've been with PUGs where we went at a boss ten different times, getting owned and then making new adjustments until we finally win.  I consider it a personal challenge when I go into a PUG and we have trouble with a boss.  I've had more fun with PUGs in this game than any other MMO, and I find running dungeons with overpowered groups to be boring.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,004Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MindTrigger
    Originally posted by Crepitus
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    That's the biggest complaint I have so far with TSW. I thought I was free to build a character the way I wanted with the skills I wanted but you get to certain points in the game where you really need a certain type of skills to progress. Healing to be more specific, there was some fights I wouldn't been able to overcome without some healings skills. I had to stop my progression and redo quests to get more APs and build a side build for these types of fights. Some kind of respec tools would be nice.

    Other then that, the game is  really fun if you're into this kind of game.

    Actually, there are different ways to approach impasses like this.  Getting newer skills is one, or even changing your gear.  As a tank, I find that when I am solo-questing as DPS, I often want to add some tank gear for increased survivability.  I don't even use heals. People usually run into trouble because they fail to adjust their approach as the game was designed for them to do.

    You should be carrying gear and skills for more than one build so you can play with hybrid approaches to problems.  I find this to be a blast personally.

    I've slowly figured this out over the past month myself.  Initially I was trying to go back and create alternate builds, so I have a ranged AR as well as one with some heals tossed in, but except for limited situations weren't really useful.

    For DPS now I'm running a hammers/chaos Impair Build in Egypt with high Crit gear for the most part, but when the going gets rough, I sub in some of the gear I maintain from my Weakness build (for  tanking situations) and it gets me through.

     

     

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    Well, if the person wants to fulfill a specific role, then it makes sense that they would have to select skills to fill that particular role. You wouldn't select damage skills to fill the tanking or healing roles. The weapon and gear choices are supposed to make some sense as well. You wouldn't use a shotgun to heal for instance.

    Being able to play what you want doesn't mean not putting some thought into your gear and skill build. From what I've heard, the game requires more effort, not less compared to other games in like areas. I don't really see this as a bad thing.

    The only thing I think they should add is the ability to modify your skill tree. I realize that there's a big deal with committing to a particular role or build, but in the long run people are happier when they can experiment. Let them experiment.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    Are you saying that build X kills an encounter but build Y can't?

    OR

    Build X kills an encounter in X seconds but build Y kills it in X+more time and therefore "inferior"?

    The difference between the two is big.

  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    There is no forcing to play except perhaps in NM dungeons and maybe PvP.

    Yes, there will be mobs immune to effects that perhaps you have in your favorite build. But by the time you get to them, you have enough points hopefully spent in places that give you flexibility. If you didn't take advantage of the flexible nature of the game and made your build rigid, you will fail. Perhaps repeatedly.

    You have an incredible array of possibilties in TSW, and while I get it that some people are overwhelmed by those possibilities, this isn't the game's fault.

     

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jaedor

    There is no forcing to play except perhaps in NM dungeons and maybe PvP.

    Yes, there will be mobs immune to effects that perhaps you have in your favorite build. But by the time you get to them, you have enough points hopefully spent in places that give you flexibility. If you didn't take advantage of the flexible nature of the game and made your build rigid, you will fail. Perhaps repeatedly.

    You have an incredible array of possibilties in TSW, and while I get it that some people are overwhelmed by those possibilities, this isn't the game's fault.

     

    For nightmares I agree.

    What we are seeing in PvP is 2 weeks ago the masses went with AR spam. To counter the AR spam people built glance tanks.  Now to counter the glance tanks people are stacking crit. 

     

    Really fun meta games going on with the whole pvp population. 

     

  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,249Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    I'd say that it's not so much that people can't play the COMBAT role they want to play.  On that front, it's about as good as you can get, so long as you're looking at the math for synergy; complementary active/passive abilities.

    But if you want to create a CHARACTER who dabbles in blood magic and straps a shotgun to their back, your combat effectiveness will suffer for it.  Envision playing "Ash, Housewares"?  Be prepared to have a hard time of it.  You might get lucky and put together a compromise of passives that make it work, but they're strewn all over the place.

    Edit:  So long as your focus is combat effectiveness and it takes priority over the weapons you want to play, you'll be more effective. 

     

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member

    I find TSW the same setup as GW1 where you have a wide array of abilities.  There will be synergy with some things and complete utter uselessness with others.  There will be popular builds that people will model after with enough tailoring to allow some slight alterations for specific enonters/zones.  Not an overall fan of how FC did their classless system, I like EVE's system much more.  There are distinctions with tools to pick n choose from to go with the kind of ship/role your doing and is much more structured.  I prefer a more regimented and structured set up with adequate freedom to have variations instead of a mass free-for-all where you have to sort out the mess of what goes good with what.

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Jaedor

    There is no forcing to play except perhaps in NM dungeons and maybe PvP.

    Yes, there will be mobs immune to effects that perhaps you have in your favorite build. But by the time you get to them, you have enough points hopefully spent in places that give you flexibility. If you didn't take advantage of the flexible nature of the game and made your build rigid, you will fail. Perhaps repeatedly.

    You have an incredible array of possibilties in TSW, and while I get it that some people are overwhelmed by those possibilities, this isn't the game's fault.

     

    For nightmares I agree.

    What we are seeing in PvP is 2 weeks ago the masses went with AR spam. To counter the AR spam people built glance tanks.  Now to counter the glance tanks people are stacking crit. 

     

    Really fun meta games going on with the whole pvp population. 

     

    All that is FotM builds and see that as a bad design basis for PvP.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by Ambros123

    I find TSW the same setup as GW1 where you have a wide array of abilities.  There will be synergy with some things and complete utter uselessness with others.  There will be popular builds that people will model after with enough tailoring to allow some slight alterations for specific enonters/zones.  Not an overall fan of how FC did their classless system, I like EVE's system much more.  There are distinctions with tools to pick n choose from to go with the kind of ship/role your doing and is much more structured.  I prefer a more regimented and structured set up with adequate freedom to have variations instead of a mass free-for-all where you have to sort out the mess of what goes good with what.

    There's really a lot to think about and adjust.  I dig it.  One thing people also don't notice is that some passives have to be triggered by things on your actives (or by other states).  Some other passives require specific actives.  I've seen people equipping stuff that never gets used because they fail to read how the stuff works.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Zylaxx

    Originally posted by eyelolled I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?
    Has nothing to do with the skill system but everything to do with how the developers designed the content.

     

    As a Tank you need to have multiple stuns (inturrupts) as a Healer you need cleanse (Pistol tree) and as a DPS you need to be able to purge ( Elem and Shotgun).  This is for nightmare mode dungeons.  Again this is a developer implemented hurdle and not a flaw of the skill system.  Plus its infinetly easier to DPS as a ranged class which is also another design flaw of the developers so it further pigeonholes characters into specific choices.


    Says who? i run interrupts as dps for guild runs, Its not complely set in stone its driven by community nonsense.

    All these mechanics need to be done, But it doesnt have to be by specific roles.

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  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I'm hearing more and more about how people can't play their characters the way they want, but end up having to take particular and specific builds to suit the role they want to play.  If everyone has to follow a specific build, than what is really the difference that makes the TSW system better?

    Are you saying that build X kills an encounter but build Y can't?

    OR

    Build X kills an encounter in X seconds but build Y kills it in X+more time and therefore "inferior"?

    The difference between the two is big.

    It really depends on the encounter.

    Especially late in the game, if you don't have a build that triggers (or doesn't trigger) certain states, then you are going to die w/ out a good amount of support from other players.

    For example, there's some mobs which deal damage to you every time they get hit with afflicted, and their damage goes up quite a bit as a result. There's some that take no damage if you can't weaken them. There's some that have skills that will wreck you if you can't stun, or purge, or clense. Etc etc.

    I've actually had to create a number of different builds to do this, but the game allows you to do that. If anything, the biggest issue I've had w/ the game is that it doesn't promote enough variety, and they really need to fix their damn gear management window, so when you swap to other builds it doesn't de-equip most your gear.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

    phew, I should never start threads at work, too much to respond to.

     

    As was previously mentioned, there are definate abilities that lend towards the role a person wants to play.  IF they want to play a tank role, than they need to equip a certain set of skills. We all know this.  But as the game has progressed, more and more people are talking about how they wanted to play "X" but we're forced to play "Y" because "X" isn't viable.  Groups wanting specific skill sets and even people complaining about elitism.  So people are being led down very specific skill configurations which to me, doesn't seem much different than a skill tree. Maybe Funcom just needs to improve skill balance, or maybe it's more to do with human nature and wanting to make a character that is "more off the wall" so to speak.

     

    thanks for all the responses btw

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    phew, I should never start threads at work, too much to respond to.

     

    As was previously mentioned, there are definate abilities that lend towards the role a person wants to play.  IF they want to play a tank role, than they need to equip a certain set of skills. We all know this.  But as the game has progressed, more and more people are talking about how they wanted to play "X" but we're forced to play "Y" because "X" isn't viable.  Groups wanting specific skill sets and even people complaining about elitism.  So people are being led down very specific skill configurations which to me, doesn't seem much different than a skill tree. Maybe Funcom just needs to improve skill balance, or maybe it's more to do with human nature and wanting to make a character that is "more off the wall" so to speak.

     

    thanks for all the responses btw

    I guess I don't perceive a problem here.  I have no idea what people "imagined" they were going to be able to play, but I persnally entered the game with an open mind and just started learning.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • IsawaIsawa Middle 0 Nowhere, ORPosts: 1,051Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    phew, I should never start threads at work, too much to respond to.

    As was previously mentioned, there are definate abilities that lend towards the role a person wants to play.  IF they want to play a tank role, than they need to equip a certain set of skills. We all know this.  But as the game has progressed, more and more people are talking about how they wanted to play "X" but we're forced to play "Y" because "X" isn't viable.  Groups wanting specific skill sets and even people complaining about elitism.  So people are being led down very specific skill configurations which to me, doesn't seem much different than a skill tree. Maybe Funcom just needs to improve skill balance, or maybe it's more to do with human nature and wanting to make a character that is "more off the wall" so to speak.

    thanks for all the responses btw

    Your X not being viable in one situation may be viable in anther where Y is not.

    Sounds like you're talking about people who want to play ONE role only and think for some reason it may be suitable for all situations?

    Groups wanting specific skill sets and elitism exist in all games and will come up regardless of "conventional trees" or not. So people who conform to the social constructs and the folks who create them are to blame here. So the people being led down very specific skill configurations are being led by whom? And why are they in that situation forcing them to choose specifics?

    Your social constructs comparing TSW's skill wheel to skill tree is quite the topic...image

     

     

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