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Why are some ships too big to fly?

freejackmackfreejackmack feeport, MSPosts: 378Member

I don't like point and click flight. It is obvious to me that actually flying my space ship is more fun. 

I think one of the reasons Eve, for instance, is not as popular as it could be is because you really don't feel like you are flying your ship. The point and click method of flight is awkward and frustrating.

Try orbiting a ship that is on the side of a station and you will likely smack into the station with the auto-orbit function because it is not intuitive and orbiting by point and click is irritatingly inaccurate to where you can not stay in range to tackle in a small ship. And that is the primary role of some ships which compounds the frustration.

When someone points this out another genius points out that Eve ships are to big to fly manually. So you tacklers are doomed to point and click orbiting I guess.

But this reason does not stand up to counter arguments.

Counter arguments:

#1 Even when your going slow it is always more fun to fly by actually steering.

#2 It's SCI-FI so you can develop/INVENT tech like inertia dampeners and gravity based engines that act on a bigger gradient than just 1 point.

#3 PUT BIGGER ENGINES ON BIG SHIPS SO YOU GO FASTER.

Seems simple to me.

Really I think point and click is fine for people that are used to playing MUD mmo's but not people like me that are more hands on orientated.

I do understand that Eve's flight engine is more than 10 years old. I think we need more flight engines that accommodate 3d flight better. Hopefully Egosoft will provide a good one with X Rebirth. Or maybe even Infinity someday. For now there is Star Conflict which pretty fun. The ships look cool too :)

 

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Comments

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member

    Okay, I have never played EVE but I feel as though this is too blatantly obvious to mention. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    You're in space in this game, right?

    When you execute a crazy flying maneuver in a video game (whether in a plane or as a person with flying powers), you feel like you're zooming and diving and taking tight corners and whatnot. The reason for this is that your surroundings provide a frame of reference. There's the ground ahead of you, and it's approaching fast; that means you're diving. There's a sideways skyscraper above you and to your left, and it is rotating; that means you're banking left around a skyscraper.

    In space, there is no frame of reference other than the distant stars millions of light years away. Without something to compare your ship to, there is no way to convey the fact that you're moving. Picture Sonic the Hedgehog without the background. Just a nondescript grey square behind him. No matter how fast his little red feet spin, you wouldn't feel like he's moving. Same goes for space. There's no way to add the feeling of moving unless there is an environment with things in it, which space kind of lacks. If they let you control the ship with airplane-like controls, it would feel wrong.

    image
  • AvsRock21AvsRock21 Denver, COPosts: 256Member

    Well said Disdena. Op, if you would like to try a space game with realistic space flight and 100% Newtonian physics, download 'Evochron Mercenary' on Steam. It is very fun, don't get me wrong, but it's very HARD. Evochron Mercenary is a singeplayer game, but because of its realistic flying it's harder than EVE the mmo... And EVE is already considered hard by many. I can do the things I want to do much better in EVE. Flying and simulator games are only things I play every once in awhile. But imagine having to do full manual flight with manual module management like what is currently in EVE... That would be outrageous. I like to relax when I play a video game.

     

    That being said, I can actually pull off maneuvers better in EVE. Here's a tip, stop using orbit all of the time... You will hardly ever use orbit in PvP, unless you're in a frigate or something fast. The ability to click anywhere in space, and move in that direction, gives me exact control of the results of my maneuvers. So even though EVE isn't manual piloting from the pilot's perspective, it's still manual flight. 

  • BigRock411BigRock411 Barrington, ILPosts: 299Member

    I think the problem here is that the OP wants an action flight sim in space...and theres nothing wrong with that.

     

    EvE delivers a thinking sandbox based on innovative mechanics.

     

    Yeah i think EVE would be a whole lot more populair if the activites that took place in game were more about action..however the in dephth thought and planning must remain.

     

    Also theres a lot of people out there that dont want to be limited in game because they dont have the best mouse aiming or circle straphe abilities.  Its nice to play a game where the bigger brain wins rather than most action based game where the kid with the most ritalin pumping through his veins wins.

     

    Perpetumm does a nice job of taking the EVE model and making mining/harvesting more engaging, as well as making combat a bit more controlable and engaging...without really losing the thought aspect of it all.  Shame that games stuck in a low pop cycle...all that games missing is a decent playerbase to make the economy and pvp work.

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride San''doria, WIPosts: 3,988Member

    I think Eve would be great if it had a combat or movement system similar to the Battlestar Galactica MMO. The controls weren't really my biggest beef with the game though.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    If you're going to get upset about something in Eve, get upset that ships don't obey basic laws of interia - if you turn off your thrusters, you *stop*.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    I think Eve would be great if it had a combat or movement system similar to the Battlestar Galactica MMO. The controls weren't really my biggest beef with the game though.

    I agree.

    Combat and flying in Eve is not fun for me. Heck, even combat in STO is more fun than Eve.

  • mmo-icemmo-ice Yorktown, VAPosts: 43Member
    Yeah I feel you plus you never realy get the feeling of how big your ship is. But for some quick fun I like BattleStar Galactica online offers a more twitch like feel then EVE does.

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  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    The point and click system is optimized for size. Newtonian flight and direct controls are more demanding bandwidth and server-wise so the amount of ships in the same system (or grid) would have to go down. Still, I'd make the trade.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

    I remember having all sorts of fun with Freespace. I would love to see that game made into an mmo.

     

    Earth & Beyond.  Wasn't that an MMO that allowed the player to pilot his ship?

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • IAmMMOIAmMMO LondonPosts: 1,333Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    I remember having all sorts of fun with Freespace. I would love to see that game made into an mmo.

     

    Earth & Beyond.  Wasn't that an MMO that allowed the player to pilot his ship?

    No  A Wing Commander MMO first, whch Free Space copied.

  • HumphrieHumphrie San Marcos, TXPosts: 123Member
    As someone else said, the bigger issue with EVE is that even though your ships get progressively larger, they never feel as such when you are flying them. There should really be a 'command from the bridge' option, although EVE basically elimnates that out of the gate with the ridiculous idea that every pilot is wedged into an egg-shaped pod the entire time they're in space.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon

     


    Originally posted by BigRock411 I think the problem here is that the OP wants an action flight sim in space...and theres nothing wrong with that.   EvE delivers a thinking sandbox based on innovative mechanics.
    Originally posted by Quirhid The point and click system is optimized for size. Newtonian flight and direct controls are more demanding bandwidth and server-wise so the amount of ships in the same system (or grid) would have to go down. Still, I'd make the trade.
    I have no problems accepting that Eve delivers "innovative mechanics", or that it is a thinking person's sandbox game.  However, I take issue with the implication that the term "action flight sim" somehow equals less thinking, or lacks the same degree of depth.  My experience has been just the opposite.  It is possible that most games that implement "Twitch" combat or what have you lack the depth of Eve, however one does not necessarily imply the other.  It is just a different mechanic, nothing more.

     

    As far as bandwidth regarding Netwonian flight is concerned, I'd be interested in seeing some substantiation of that claim.  In my game of choice (Vendetta) I have been in very large battles between groups of players and AI ships (over a hundred) with direct flight controls, and the game was designed to be playable over 56k. Back in 2002, when the game first opened to the public, that would have been far more common than today, however I don't think Twitch combat necessarily has to be bandwidth hungry. It would depend on the network code and how the game was designed.

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by freejackmack

    #1 Even when your going slow it is always more fun to fly by actually steering.

    For you, maybe.  I see it as unrealistic throwing a 500,000 ton ship around as if it was an X-Wing.

    #2 It's SCI-FI so you can develop/INVENT tech like inertia dampeners and gravity based engines that act on a bigger gradient than just 1 point.

    The majority of space games already do actually play as if inertia dampeners are fitted.  STO and Eve to name but two....

    #3 PUT BIGGER ENGINES ON BIG SHIPS SO YOU GO FASTER.

    Massive ships still wouldn't (or shouldn't) be able to turn on a dime.  What you ask for is stupid.  X-Wings and Tie-Fighters fly and turn fast - Republic and Imperial ships of the line couldn't

    Seems simple to me.

    Yeah... I think you meant 'simplistic'  :D

    Really I think point and click is fine for people that are used to playing MUD mmo's...

    Look, if you want to play in a dinky little dogfighting game and scream DAKA-DAKA-DAKA-DAKA-DAKA-DAKA! and make WEEEEEOOOOOOOSSSSHHH noises, find a game that caters for your tastes.  Games like Eve are perfect, though maybe a little cerebral for you.  Find something you like and go for it.

     

     

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Ahh the good old days of eve. I used to take small groups of news in frigates into lvl 4 missions with my Hurricane. I'd get 5-6 newb frigates they would orbit me and take out all the NPC cruisers, destroyers, frigates and I would take out the NPC BCs and BSs. With the frigates orbiting me  things worked really well and it made it easier for them to concentrait on targeting. All of the frigates would salvage as we killed the NPCs and we would have one guy in a destroyer running stuff to a base to sell and market the loots.

    Eve is a fun game this way..I'd still be playing if i could keep a group of people for more than a few days at a time.

    We would clear a modest 10-15 mil each in such missions.

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
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  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member
    Originally posted by IAmMMO
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    I remember having all sorts of fun with Freespace. I would love to see that game made into an mmo.

     

    Earth & Beyond.  Wasn't that an MMO that allowed the player to pilot his ship?

    No  A Wing Commander MMO first, whch Free Space copied.

    Youd have to wrestle the rights from EAs cold dead hands, but I support this idea

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

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  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    If you don't like the click to move then don't play Eve.  The game continues to grow despite all the complaints.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • xaritscinxaritscin CaliPosts: 349Member

    i've played Evochron, newtonian physics are pretty complicated if you've never played an space sim before, i prefer EVE because of its strategic way of flying, but of course, sometimes is pretty overwhelming when you have to move quick and you have to select menus to do the things.

    (damn, it makes me want to play again, i have a retriever and a mammoth getting dust in the hangar e.e...)

    for the OP, i'd say play Evochron, to me is the most awesome space sim i've seen, specially  the feature of landing on planets, and with the new expansion that is coming, you'll be able to use a vehicle to walk on them, also the autor will revamp the planet generation, apart from better graphics, its gonna be awesome.

    also there's Infinity: The Quest for Earth, it will be an space sim MMO with newtonian physics, but right now the developers are doing the engine so i bet we won't see it announced at least until 2015 or later...

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member

    Twitch based combat in sapce does not exist. This just WW2 air-combat in space and a 12 years old wet dream. In space you tell your computer what to do and thats it. It is fully vector oriented. No human can ever fly a spaceship with relativistic speed in combat. 

    Of course you could add something like WASD-steering in EVE, but your ship would still turn rather slow. And this would still not be, what you want. Because twitch based combat does not exist. And i clap to CCP for their resitance.

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
    months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
    weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
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  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by IAmMMO
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    I remember having all sorts of fun with Freespace. I would love to see that game made into an mmo.

     

    Earth & Beyond.  Wasn't that an MMO that allowed the player to pilot his ship?

    No  A Wing Commander MMO first, whch Free Space copied.

    Youd have to wrestle the rights from EAs cold dead hands, but I support this idea

    I'm really not concerned with IP, I just enjoyed the game/gamestyle.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • KiljaedenasKiljaedenas New Westminster, BCPosts: 468Member
    Originally posted by maplestone

    If you're going to get upset about something in Eve, get upset that ships don't obey basic laws of interia - if you turn off your thrusters, you *stop*.

    Just think of it as braking thrusters on the ship automatically fire to stop the ship, the same as external inertial dampeners in Star Trek. It really isn't that hard to believe.

    Where's the any key?

  • KiljaedenasKiljaedenas New Westminster, BCPosts: 468Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    The point and click system is optimized for size. Newtonian flight and direct controls are more demanding bandwidth and server-wise so the amount of ships in the same system (or grid) would have to go down. Still, I'd make the trade.

    The statement about needing more bandwidth is true...what the OP is describing is twitch mechanics. This system makes each user in an area take up more bandwidth to account for the constant live feedback from their controls and adapting it to a directional vector for their character/ship. If Eve did this it would probably cut down the max number of players allowed in a fight by well over half, and you simply wouldn't be able to have the hundreds to thousands-strong fights. Personally I would not make the trade; Eve is completely unequaled in the number of players it can simultaneously have in a fight and I want it to stay that way. Besides, anything with a size above a destroyer, and maybe some cruisers, has the maneuverability of a brick so twitch mechanics really wouldn't help much.

    However, there is one idea that I bounced off of people in the Eve forums as another possible way for Eve to expand which would incorporate twitch mechanics: make the fighters and fighter-bombers of carriers manned by players. This does seem contradictory to what I said above but I look at it from the thought that the standard Eve ships usually significantly outnumber the amount of fighters/bombers in play in a fight, and the actual planes are quite small so hopefully that would help cut down on the amount of bandwidth required to account for that ship model. Also, if the "fighter/bomber" game was a completely separate entity similar to what Dust 514 will be and it had a strong dedicated network system it might be able to handle it.

    Don't know if that will actually go anywhere, but right now I'd rather CCP focus on core game mechanics first anyways.

    Where's the any key?

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon

    I'm not arguing that incorporating any sort of Twitch mechanics into an existing architecture wouldn't take up more bandwidth.  However, I would argue against the implication that a Twitch structured game would necessarily outsize a non-twitch one in terms of internet usage.  I've heard, on average, the Vendetta Online user consumes 14 kbits.  Not much to compare that to, but if you have even a rough sprinkling of compsci it doesn't sound like much to get to that feedback state.  I think it depends on What Kind Of Game It Is(tm).

    In Vendetta Online, I find that success in PvP depends largely on getting inside the head of my opponent; the opening seconds of a duel often involve "feeling out" an enemy's reactions, observing how they respond to my own movements.  Then it becomes a matter of predicting their movements: you reach a state where you know what s/he is going to do before s/he even realizes that him/herself.  Therein lies the complexity.

    All the while you are in the feedback loop of observe-react.  That's all that is really meant by Twitch: observe and react, on a smaller timescale.  This takes a lot of focus at first, but with enough practice it becomes second nature.  That is where a second awareness comes into play: a kind of zen-like connectedness to everything that is going on all around.  I am aware of the game, and I am also aware of myself playing the game.  I am aware of my breathing, my posture, and anywhere energy might be getting blocked.  I can kind of purposefully go into this state, but it took about 4 years of going through different combat scenarios to learn to do so.  Even then I'm not always guaranteed to win; accuracy has been a difficult point for me... I know my interface device well enough, but if I were to switch to a different controller this would probably set me back a little.

    At the start, my adrenaline would skyrocket.  I've heard other new players express surprise at the emotional response a simple game can provoke.  Learning to tame these reactions was a large part of my growth in combat.  Now I can tell my heartbeat to slow down if I feel it starting to rise... I focus on my opponent rather than myself... I relax when I'm hit, rather than tensing up.  Going up against a well-versed opponent in an energy duel is kind of like what I'd imagine a Jedi lightsaber duel to be.  It's a cyberpunk game of Go.  Dodging flares is like bullet time; I'm all like "woah, here it comes, get out of the way, dude" (say this with a Keanu Reeves accent).

    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

    Twitch based combat in sapce does not exist. This just WW2 air-combat in space and a 12 years old wet dream. In space you tell your computer what to do and thats it. It is fully vector oriented. No human can ever fly a spaceship with relativistic speed in combat.

    My reply to this is that there really is only one limitation necessary, and that is top speed.  Within a given sphere, velocity can take any vector... above this a hypothetical frictional force kicks in, causing it to appear as though one is moving through a viscous fluid (blame it on the Higgs field or w/e).  However, within that sphere, Newtonian mechanics work just fine and make for a very playable game.

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Kiljaedenas

    Just think of it as braking thrusters on the ship automatically fire to stop the ship, the same as external inertial dampeners in Star Trek. It really isn't that hard to believe.

    Just because we've built this entire pop-culture vision of space based on maritime/airplane concepts doesn't mean it's believable. In space, there's no such thing as "stopped".

  • anemoanemo Posts: 763Member Uncommon

    This thread is new and original...

    EvE's combat makes a lot more sense than a joystick handling water/air physics simulator you're asking for... Even then EvE is pretty far off.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • freejackmackfreejackmack feeport, MSPosts: 378Member

     


    Originally posted by maplestone If you're going to get upset about something in Eve, get upset that ships don't obey basic laws of interia - if you turn off your thrusters, you *stop*.

     

    Yes!!!

    I think most of us are hungry for the experience that is flying in space. If you take things like inertia and everything else that adds to experience of space flight out of the picture then the total experience is not space flight but a series of mouse clicks that simply is not returning a sense of space flight.

    Recreating an experience is an art. Some games do not convey an experience that people like and that is why some games fail while the others that are basically the same setting and subject succeed.

    If you are making a space game get it right! I don't care if it is twitch or tab targeting it still needs to convey an experience that is palatable.

    I do not want to see my ship level out on some horizontal plane if I shut off my engines. That does not convey a space flight experience and inertia should be countered by my action or at least a setting I choose. If you like clicking in space that is fine but give us more than just that. And why is it that we need to click on some thing to warp to in Eve? space flight should be about freedom and some exploration. If I want to warp to some place that is not on the way to any other place let me do it, don't leave me hanging with no options that I would expect in a space game. If I want to engage warp just to see where I end up when I end warp let me.


    I want a space game to be a space game not a game that just has a space setting.

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