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Let's talk endgame.

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  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
    Originally posted by heartless
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

    we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

    Some people just - don't - get it.

    I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

    People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

    It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

    First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

    You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

    You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

    These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

    Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

    It's sad. Very, very sad.

    I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

    It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.

    No. GW2 is not a world in the sense that SWG and UO were. GW2 is a game and a pretty good game, but not a world. SWG and UO were true virtual worlds in which people lived second lives. GW2 is more of a beautiful environment where people go to experience some pretty neat content.

    Re-read what I wrote. GW2 has a world, just like any MMO out there. It's not, however, an emulation of our world.

    image

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
     

    No offense, but how do you know it will be enough? How do you know that the level scaling and the branching events will be enough for this to become your main game and that it will last you for  months or years. You have only played a limited amount for a very short period of time. There is no harm in approaching the game skeptically. I think broadly stating something that you haven't experienced as fact is a little presumptive. He wasn't bashing GW2, he was just stating a concern that is completely valid and that no one has the answer too.

    because I have played many games in the past and games like skyrim where i put hundreds and hundreds of hours just exploring and enjoying the game. It's not all about better this or better that it's about enjoying whats right in front of you. It's about going out in the world and exploring and enjoying the content presented before you. One of my biggest gripes with many MMOs is complete lack of immersion in the game zones. GW2 is by far the best MMO I have played that gives you the feeling of a living breathing world going on inside the zones. So many have given answers to the question it's up to the individual to weigh those answer and see if that's what they are looking for in a game or not.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • stevebmbsqdstevebmbsqd Orlando, FLPosts: 448Member
    Originally posted by heartless
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
    Originally posted by heartless
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

    we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

    Some people just - don't - get it.

    I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

    People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

    It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

    First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

    You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

    You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

    These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

    Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

    It's sad. Very, very sad.

    I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

    It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.

    No. GW2 is not a world in the sense that SWG and UO were. GW2 is a game and a pretty good game, but not a world. SWG and UO were true virtual worlds in which people lived second lives. GW2 is more of a beautiful environment where people go to experience some pretty neat content.

    Re-read what I wrote. GW2 has a world, just like any MMO out there. It's not, however, an emulation of our world.

    You missed the point. GW2 gives you the content. SWG and UO gave you a little content, but more importantly it gave you the tools to make your own content. That is how SWG and UO were worlds. The endgame was the game and it truly was from level 1. GW2 gives you pretty much all of the content. I am not denying that GW2 has opened the world up and made it's content more relevant through all levels, but it is not the same as what SWG and UO provided. When you hear people pining for a game similar to those, it is because they want a world to live in.....as sad as they may or may not be.

  • stevebmbsqdstevebmbsqd Orlando, FLPosts: 448Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
     

    No offense, but how do you know it will be enough? How do you know that the level scaling and the branching events will be enough for this to become your main game and that it will last you for  months or years. You have only played a limited amount for a very short period of time. There is no harm in approaching the game skeptically. I think broadly stating something that you haven't experienced as fact is a little presumptive. He wasn't bashing GW2, he was just stating a concern that is completely valid and that no one has the answer too.

    because I have played many games in the past and games like skyrim where i put hundreds and hundreds of hours just exploring and enjoying the game. It's not all about better this or better that it's about enjoying whats right in front of you. It's about going out in the world and exploring and enjoying the content presented before you. One of my biggest gripes with many MMOs is complete lack of immersion in the game zones. GW2 is by far the best MMO I have played that gives you the feeling of a living breathing world going on inside the zones. So many have given answers to the question it's up to the individual to weigh those answer and see if that's what they are looking for in a game or not.

    I agree with you here. To this day I still search for a game that gives me a world to play in and the tools to make my own content. Much like TES games. I loved SWG and UO for those reasons. Even though I love sandboxes, I also like GW2. I am  not sure how long the content can hold my interest, but I am looking forward to playing the game in the incredible environments that they have provided.

  • TarkaTarka LancashirePosts: 1,662Member

    I think part of the issue why some don't understand the concept of giving oneself something to do in the game when you reach "max" is the simple fact that a lot of MMO's just don't offer anything other than preset quest chains, raids and pvp warzones. 

    the more recent MMO's just don't include some of the "world" type stuff found in games like SWG:

    • Unique and highly sought after items to find.
    • Places of interest to visit.
    • Activities that are outside of the usual scope of "questing" such as "collections".
    • Being able to be one of only a few that can make specific items of worth.
    • Being able to build your own "house" and customise it accordingly, without restriction on what you can put in it.
    • Being able to build ships.
    • The list goes on and on.

    I suppose it probably came down to a matter of time and resources, as well as a little hubris that suggested they weren't needed (I'm looking at you Bioware) that stopped these companies from expanding on the games design to be a little less restrictive in what activities could be accomplished in such games.

    Perhaps it was the advent of things like achievement systems, LFG tools, long story arcs, voice over, dialogue options and all the other things that we now somewhat take for granted that forced out all the other "world" type stuff simply because there's only so much time in the day.  That along with rising costs, an increase in competition, reduction in time scales and an economic situation putting the squeeze on such companies.

    But, as what we are witnessing now, companies are beginning to realise that excuses don't keep players loyal.  Companies have to start going that extra mile just to retain players.

    Even Damion Schubert of Bioware once said : 

    "Freedom is a true part of the magic of MMOs, and artificial constraints and mechanics can undermine the fiction and the sense that you are living in the virtual world – and when you have a brand as rich and textured as Star Wars™, the last thing you want to do is undermine it. Even worse, the depth and visual splendor of Star Wars™: The Old Republic would be completely lost if players couldn’t jump off the rails and just live in the space from time to time."

    I agree with him, in my opinon, the situation should not be EITHER all linear, or all "world" type content.  Because as we've seen in the past, neither extreme is really a "one size fits all" situation.  Instead, BOTH should be included in order to offer players options.

    It's just a shame that SWTOR didn't actually accomplish what Damion wanted to see in the game.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member

    Level scaling to content is probably GW2's greatest feature.  This ensures that all content updates/expansions is relevant and can be experienced by everybody.

    I believe a solid foundation has been laid from Anet enabling this game to continually grow and evolve.

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
    Originally posted by heartless
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
    Originally posted by heartless
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

    we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

    Some people just - don't - get it.

    I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

    People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

    It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

    First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

    You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

    You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

    These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

    Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

    It's sad. Very, very sad.

    I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

    It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.

    No. GW2 is not a world in the sense that SWG and UO were. GW2 is a game and a pretty good game, but not a world. SWG and UO were true virtual worlds in which people lived second lives. GW2 is more of a beautiful environment where people go to experience some pretty neat content.

    Re-read what I wrote. GW2 has a world, just like any MMO out there. It's not, however, an emulation of our world.

    You missed the point. GW2 gives you the content. SWG and UO gave you a little content, but more importantly it gave you the tools to make your own content. That is how SWG and UO were worlds. The endgame was the game and it truly was from level 1. GW2 gives you pretty much all of the content. I am not denying that GW2 has opened the world up and made it's content more relevant through all levels, but it is not the same as what SWG and UO provided. When you hear people pining for a game similar to those, it is because they want a world to live in.....as sad as they may or may not be.

    Answer these questions:

    Does GW2 have a world with different zones, towns, NPCs and monsters?

    Is this world open at level 80 or not?

    That is all I am saying. Whatever other stuff you were saying about UO and SWG being worlds has absolutely nothing to do with what I am trying to say.

    image

  • stevebmbsqdstevebmbsqd Orlando, FLPosts: 448Member
    Originally posted by heartless
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
    Originally posted by heartless
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
    Originally posted by heartless
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

    we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

    Some people just - don't - get it.

    I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

    People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

    It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

    First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

    You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

    You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

    These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

    Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

    It's sad. Very, very sad.

    I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

    It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.

    No. GW2 is not a world in the sense that SWG and UO were. GW2 is a game and a pretty good game, but not a world. SWG and UO were true virtual worlds in which people lived second lives. GW2 is more of a beautiful environment where people go to experience some pretty neat content.

    Re-read what I wrote. GW2 has a world, just like any MMO out there. It's not, however, an emulation of our world.

    You missed the point. GW2 gives you the content. SWG and UO gave you a little content, but more importantly it gave you the tools to make your own content. That is how SWG and UO were worlds. The endgame was the game and it truly was from level 1. GW2 gives you pretty much all of the content. I am not denying that GW2 has opened the world up and made it's content more relevant through all levels, but it is not the same as what SWG and UO provided. When you hear people pining for a game similar to those, it is because they want a world to live in.....as sad as they may or may not be.

    Answer these questions:

    Does GW2 have a world with different zones, towns, NPCs and monsters?

    Is this world open at level 80 or not?

    That is all I am saying. Whatever other stuff you were saying about UO and SWG being worlds has absolutely nothing to do with what I am trying to say.

    You just descibed pretty much every MMO out there.......

  • TarkaTarka LancashirePosts: 1,662Member
    Originally posted by Badaboom

    Level scaling to content is probably GW2's greatest feature.  This ensures that all content updates/expansions is relevant and can be experienced by everybody.

    I believe a solid foundation has been laid from Anet enabling this game to continually grow and evolve.

    I don't think the leveling scaling can be singled out as the greatest feature.  Because, it's only when it is coupled with the dynamic events and hearts system does one get the full perspective of a combination of systems that aren't "level locked" and thus are able to create a greater degree of longevity in the content whilst creating a feeling of a less linear world.

     

    Side Note:  It's just a shame that currently GW2 is missing two features that I personally think it needs: 

    • Player housing:  Just like in games such as SWG, player housing that can be built by the player and has a fully customisable interior can add to a sense of the gameworld actually "feeling" like a world and less like a movie set tour (I'm looking at you Bioware).
    • .
    • Land and Sea based Mounts:  I'm not talking about having flying mounts or even mounts that go at super fast speeds.  Both of which would bring in their own sets of problems to the game.  I'm referring to a wide variety of types of land and sea based mounts that perhaps have speeds slightly higher than run speed.   Such a variation of mounts (some of which are not easily obtainable) can be another element which gives players something to seek out and thus gives them more reason to stay in the game world.
  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

    You just descibed pretty much every MMO out there.......

    No. Generally, in most MMOs, there are a few max level zones with appropriate level content and the rest of the zones are useless since they do not offer any challenge due to being lower level.

    Due to downscaling, all of GW2's world will remain viable, once your character is max level. You're not going to be locked into a few endgame zones and instances. You can go anywhere and the game will still remain fun and challenging. Which is how UO was PvE wise.

    image

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Eve doesn't have stat progression, it has lateral skill and gear progression. It is almost identical to gw2

    Lol...wtf?

    Eve almost identical to GW2...

    Eve is a great game, yes.  It is hard, unforgiving and has significant vertical progression in PvP through the skill system.  Ever tried 1v1 your 1 day old character against a 100mil sp character even in a supposedly equivalent ship eg tier 1 frig?  You wont last long.  Or tried flying a Titan day 1 or month 1 or even year 1?  This wont happen either.  Hint the Titan is more powerful than the frig.

    Then we have the consequences of Pvp in Eve - you lose, you lose your ship, you don't just respawn and resume in the same gear - your gear is gone.  Earn some more isk and try again.

     

    So how exactly are the two games almost identical?

     

    PS oh and most people also think that the supercaps are ugly, so Eve really has a negative cosmetic progression in it too ...

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

    It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

    First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

    You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

    You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

    These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

    Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

    It's sad. Very, very sad.

    I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

    A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point.

    Not seeing these similarities to sandbox games.  GW2 is a lot more similar to that other game you over hyped back in November.

     

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

    It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

    First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

    You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

    You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

    These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

    Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

    It's sad. Very, very sad.

    I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

    A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point.

    Not seeing these similarities to sandbox games.  GW2 is a lot more similar to that other game you over hyped back in November.

    Well, the model is basically dead center between a sandbox and a themepark. It has aspects of both in its core design.

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

    It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

    First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

    You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

    You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

    These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

    Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

    It's sad. Very, very sad.

    I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

    A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point.

    Not seeing these similarities to sandbox games.  GW2 is a lot more similar to that other game you over hyped back in November.

     

    Read the post by Distopia on the top of page 66 of this thread if you need help understanding what he meant.

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Xzen

     

     

    Read the post by Distopia on the top of page 66 of this thread if you need help understanding what he meant.

    "Originally posted by Distopia

     

    I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do."

     

    There are a lot of themeparks that allow multiple goals at end-game - this does not make them sandboxes, or even sandparks.  Sandboxes are defined by players creating the content rather than the game developers providing the content.  Even Wow allows multiple goals at endgame.

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Xzen

     

     

    Read the post by Distopia on the top of page 66 of this thread if you need help understanding what he meant.

    "Originally posted by Distopia

     

    I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do."

     

    There are a lot of themeparks that allow multiple goals at end-game - this does not make them sandboxes, or even sandparks.  Sandboxes are defined by players creating the content rather than the game developers providing the content.  Even Wow allows multiple goals at endgame.

    No one is saying that GW2 is a sandbox or even a sandpark. The point remains that there are sucessful games around that do not have a stat grind as end game.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Xzen

     

     

    Read the post by Distopia on the top of page 66 of this thread if you need help understanding what he meant.

    "Originally posted by Distopia

     

    I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do."

     

    There are a lot of themeparks that allow multiple goals at end-game - this does not make them sandboxes, or even sandparks.  Sandboxes are defined by players creating the content rather than the game developers providing the content.  Even Wow allows multiple goals at endgame.

    I can agree I don't view this game as much of a sandbox at all but it does give you more options to explore and play the way you want than any themepark I can remember playing. 

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Xzen

     

     

    Read the post by Distopia on the top of page 66 of this thread if you need help understanding what he meant.

    "Originally posted by Distopia

     

    I guess I can see what you guys are saying here, that there's no single goal to do at end-game and they leave the choice up to the player on what to do."

     

    There are a lot of themeparks that allow multiple goals at end-game - this does not make them sandboxes, or even sandparks.  Sandboxes are defined by players creating the content rather than the game developers providing the content.  Even Wow allows multiple goals at endgame.

    I can agree I don't view this game as much of a sandbox at all but it does give you more options to explore and play the way you want than any themepark I can remember playing. 

    Fair enough.

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Xzen

     

    No one is saying that GW2 is a sandbox or even a sandpark. ...

    Well I am glad that YOU are not claiming it to be a sandpark because that is obviously not correct, however we have posts like this,

    "Originally posted by BadSpock
     

     

    A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point."

    I don't remember too many posts about UO/SWG fondly remembering the fact that there is no gear grind at end game, but rather I do see posts about the sandbox environment afforded by these games, so it is an easy conclusion to come to that the point of this comparison is an inference that the game in question is supposedly a sandbox.  Certainly when Eve is added to the mix you have a Sandbox game that very few people will complete the skills before moving on (even many years later), so it is also not true that the game (Eve) is great because of no end game stat (skill) grind.

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Xzen

     

    No one is saying that GW2 is a sandbox or even a sandpark. ...

    Well I am glad that YOU are not claiming it to be a sandpark because that is obviously not correct, however we have posts like this,

    "Originally posted by BadSpock
     

     

    A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point."

    I don't remember too many posts about UO/SWG fondly remembering the fact that there is no gear grind at end game, but rather I do see posts about the sandbox environment afforded by these games, so it is an easy conclusion to come to that the point of this comparison is an inference that the game in question is supposedly a sandbox.  Certainly when Eve is added to the mix you have a Sandbox game that very few people will complete the skills before moving on (even many years later), so it is also not true that the game (Eve) is great because of no end game stat (skill) grind.

    I think that you're a bit confused. The game does have certain things in common with certain sandbox games. In particular in how the whole game world is your playground and how the game is centered more around exploration and interacting with other players.

    My favorite thing about UO and one that makes it and EVE superior MMOs, in my opinion of course, is the simple fact that some of the best gear was crafted. It was easily accessible and kind of evened out the playing field. This, in combination with gameplay centered around exploration, is why I absolutely love GW2.

    GW2 is not a true sandbox but it's does a damn good job at conveying the illusion of a living world with amazing attention to detail. That, to me, is enough. As a sandbox fan, I'm still waiting to sink my teeth into ArcheAge but for now, GW2 has some pretty decent sandbox elements.

    image

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,272Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Celcius

    I don't have long since I have a night class soon, but basically read into what I am saying: You say that your opinion on GW2 is the only valid opinion based upon your own view of what games should have. Regardless of number of people who say things on internet forums: it is still an opinion. You are now trying to defend TSW because I was attacking it. You don't like that and pretend to make up statistics based on poor data just to back it up. (Number of registered users on a website as a sample size, you can't be serious) GW2 has no statistical data yet to prove either way other then data like what you have posted. So really there is no win here. Its all opinion. 

    The FACT is that GW2 does have an endgame. You just don't like it so you don't count it as end game. By your logic TSW has no end game as well because I do not consider what they have end game. Funny that even on the TSW forums I totally destroyed your arguments --based on opinions as facts-- (the ones you LOVE to bring up) and alot of people backed me up there as they do here. I don't have to make a signature about what I am saying since you will regret it and feel guilty about saying it in the first place. 9/5/12 if there is not a 10 man and 20 man raid you were wrong. Mark the day. I don't have to wait long though considering that you claimed Funcom will announce 750k subs in 2 days. Can't wait !;)

    I never said that nor did I create this thread. 

     

    I love cosmetics, but cosmetics only as endgame progression? That's thin and stretching it to call it endgame.

    pvp, and actually done well.

    look at my sig. gg.

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by heartless
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Xzen

     

    No one is saying that GW2 is a sandbox or even a sandpark. ...

    Well I am glad that YOU are not claiming it to be a sandpark because that is obviously not correct, however we have posts like this,

    "Originally posted by BadSpock
     

     

    A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point."

    I don't remember too many posts about UO/SWG fondly remembering the fact that there is no gear grind at end game, but rather I do see posts about the sandbox environment afforded by these games, so it is an easy conclusion to come to that the point of this comparison is an inference that the game in question is supposedly a sandbox.  Certainly when Eve is added to the mix you have a Sandbox game that very few people will complete the skills before moving on (even many years later), so it is also not true that the game (Eve) is great because of no end game stat (skill) grind.

    I think that you're a bit confused. The game does have certain things in common with certain sandbox games. In particular in how the whole game world is your playground and how the game is centered more around exploration and interacting with other players.

    My favorite thing about UO and one that makes it and EVE superior MMOs, in my opinion of course, is the simple fact that some of the best gear was crafted. It was easily accessible and kind of evened out the playing field. This, in combination with gameplay centered around exploration, is why I absolutely love GW2.

    GW2 is not a true sandbox but it's does a damn good job at conveying the illusion of a living world with amazing attention to detail. That, to me, is enough. As a sandbox fan, I'm still waiting to sink my teeth into ArcheAge but for now, GW2 has some pretty decent sandbox elements.

    Don't think it is me who is a bit confused,

    Xzen: "No one is saying that GW2 is a sandbox or even a sandpark."

    Aerowyn: "I can agree I don't view this game as much of a sandbox at all..."

     

    It is ok to like themeparks or even just one particular themepark, really it is.  It just is a bit silly to hype something up on the basis of something it isn't though.  That is my point.

     

     

     

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by ElSandman
     

    Don't think it is me who is a bit confused,

    Xzen: "No one is saying that GW2 is a sandbox or even a sandpark."

    Aerowyn: "I can agree I don't view this game as much of a sandbox at all..."

     

    It is ok to like themeparks or even just one particular themepark, really it is.  It just is a bit silly to hype something up on the basis of something it isn't though.  That is my point.

     

     

     

    well it really depends what you consider core aspects of a sandbox game.. to me its "non dev controlled player created content" others may have other definitions of what they feel are core sandbox elements. I consider skyrim a themepark but has free roam and meaningfull exploration and many many options much like GW2. 

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by ElSandman
     

    Don't think it is me who is a bit confused,

    Xzen: "No one is saying that GW2 is a sandbox or even a sandpark."

    Aerowyn: "I can agree I don't view this game as much of a sandbox at all..."

     

    It is ok to like themeparks or even just one particular themepark, really it is.  It just is a bit silly to hype something up on the basis of something it isn't though.  That is my point.

     

     

     

    well it really depends what you consider core aspects of a sandbox game.. to me its "non dev controlled player created content" others may have other definitions of what they feel are core sandbox elements. I consider skyrim a themepark but has free roam and meaningfull exploration and many many options much like GW2. 

    Which is funny because I consider Skyrim to be a sandboxy game.  I guess mainly because I don't account for player created content so much as I have limited experience with that.

     

    So, considering my thoughts on Skyrim, I would say that GW2 is a themepark with many sandbox elements.  Since it shares many concepts of gameplay with Skyrim and other sandbox type games (basically freedom of movement and choice), I don't think that's too far off the mark.  I will agree though, that to call GW2 a sandbox game isn't correct even by loose definitions.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by ElSandman
     

    Don't think it is me who is a bit confused,

    Xzen: "No one is saying that GW2 is a sandbox or even a sandpark."

    Aerowyn: "I can agree I don't view this game as much of a sandbox at all..."

     

    It is ok to like themeparks or even just one particular themepark, really it is.  It just is a bit silly to hype something up on the basis of something it isn't though.  That is my point.

     

     

     

    well it really depends what you consider core aspects of a sandbox game.. to me its "non dev controlled player created content" others may have other definitions of what they feel are core sandbox elements. I consider skyrim a themepark but has free roam and meaningfull exploration and many many options much like GW2. 

    Which is funny because I consider Skyrim to be a sandboxy game.  I guess mainly because I don't account for player created content so much as I have limited experience with that.

     

    So, considering my thoughts on Skyrim, I would say that GW2 is a themepark with many sandbox elements.  Since it shares many concepts of gameplay with Skyrim and other sandbox type games (basically freedom of movement and choice), I don't think that's too far off the mark.  I will agree though, that to call GW2 a sandbox game isn't correct even by loose definitions.

    it all depends who you talk to and where you look when discussing sandbox games but here's one definition

     

    Definition - What does Sandbox mean?

    Sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. Instead of featuring segmented areas or numbered levels, a sandbox game usually occurs in a “world” to which the gamer has full access from start to finish.

    A sandbox game is also known as an open-world or free-roaming game.

     

    going by this GW2 follows a very sandbox route as in red but then follows the themepark route in the next sentance. I many ways it is a open world free roaming game and in many ways it's not so its sort of on that line. As a game like skyrim I will agree is more of the complete open world free roaming type. But as i said I feel in skyrim you are still strung along by the will of what is created by the developers and not allowing you to really change the world as I point in blue... so a lot is up for interpretation

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

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