One thing I don't get about all the GW2 fans is that they hate the gear grind yet support the level grind. They both have an end, they both make your character more powerful. Seriously what's the big difference? Is it that the end game gear is too difficult to obtain for you, so you feel you can't compete with the sub max gear?
There is a major difference betwen the two that you just seem to be missing for some reason. The gear grind does not have an end in other games like you try and express in your post. You literally just gloss over that fact that is so central to the reason why some people don't enjoy gear grinding.
There is a limit to the level grind in most MMORPGs.
There is no limit to the gear grind in many MMORPGs.
Leveling feels worthwhile because you accomplish something that can't be taken away from you. Gear grinding has the odd effect of making you feel like you haven't accomplished anything because everything is replaceable within a short period of time. Your gear is essentially taken away from you by being made worthless when it comes to enjoying new content every three to six months.
You apprently enjoy gear grinding. And that's fine and there are a lot of games with that mechanic for you to play. But GW2 is not one of those games. The game does reward you in many ways, but stat progression through a repeatable gear grind is not one of them.
What the sam hell are you talking about. There isn't an infinite amount of end game gear to collect. Once you get the gear for the current expansion or big patch you're done until the next one. Maxing a character out in second best pvp gear in wow might take a month if you play very casually. A few days if you play a bit more. And when it comes to gear. It doesn't matter what the hell you have unless you like to pvp. Although even pve gear that would allow all content to be seen can be attained quickly also.
Do you rage when you have to gain more levels in xpacs? I don't see how people are fans of RPGs when they are against their core mechanics.
GW2 isn't even fixing this when it comes to WvW. There are still gear and level disparities. Maybe just not as severe as other games. Sure low levels are boosted, but they are still gimped when fighting real higher leveled players.
Gear grind IS infinite - I will give you an example - RIFT. Patch 1.9 is out and it has a new instance and new gear. It takes alot of grinding to get ALL the gear from that instance. The gear is also higher spec'ed so YOU want that gear to replace your current gear. You also have to grind out dailies and other instances to buy this new gear. They are already planning the next expansion for Rift and that will also have more gear that is higher ned.
That is what we mean by infinite. Just because you have the current armor, you still have to save up to get the armor from the next patch because it will be better than what you have already. Call it the 'Gear Grind' wheel. You also have to go through these instances alot to get the right items for the gear. They reset these instances and they rest in Rift each week. ALso the amount of time to play in a group in each instance (normally 3-5 hrs minimum) for 1/2 of the instance. I won't even mention the cookie cutter builds you have to use to get through.
ok, here's my attempt to answer to all you guys...
Yellow: I can't speak for others much like you can't assume all GW2 fans are all the same. Gear grind is very different from "level grind" (more accurately, leveling). Not sure how leveling can even be considered grinding, unless you can only lvl by gear grinding and only gear grind by mindlessly doing repetitive quests. Gear grinding is a mechanic to trap players in an endless treadmill in order to get them to keep playing and spending money in the game (whether it be via monthly subs or CS's). Leveling is a game mechanic with the purpose of measuring the progress of players through what monsters/players you can kill, what gear/armor you can equip, and what quests/DE's you can do. In other words, leveling is a tool that the devs use in order to separate the progression various elements of gameplay throughout the progression of said gameplay. Not sure how you can even call leveling "level grind", unless the game you're playing sucks so much that even leveling your player feels like a grind because of the mindlessly repetitive and limited choices you have.
Yellow-Red: Just because things share commonalities (only two in your case) does not make them the same. There are liberal fanatics and conservative fanatics, but you would be hard pressed to find two groups more different from each other.
Blue: There are limits to both gear grinding and leveling, as to how long it takes a player to get there depends on the player. I understand what you're saying. If you don't get all the new gear before a newer set arrives, it does seem to make the gear grind endless, but there is an end, problem is you just didn't get there fast enough. Having said that however, I would not be surprised that that there is a bit of intentionality in the process; release newer gear before the average player (majority of players) gets there in order to keep them in the treadmill, thus spending money on your game.
Blue-Red: New gear is not rendered worthless by newer gear, it's just not as powerful. In WOW, you can still participate in raids, but don't expect to be the highest dps in the group.
Green: I highly doubt that, I am a true casual wow player (my last month until my account expires in order to play GW2) and it does take me longer than a month to get complete sets of gear; whether they pve and/or pvp. I think you're being a bit disingenuous with your measurements of time in regards to acquiring gear; one of wow's biggest sins, in my opinion of course, is that wow requires a lot of time in order to make it worth playing; one of the biggest reasons why I'm switching over to GW2.
Green-Red1: Gear does matter other than just in pvp, especially in WOW. In order to get into any decent raiding groups you need a certain overall gear level; it may not matter as much, but it certainly does matter. No denying that my friend.
Green-Red2: Again with being disingenuous. There are indeed gear and level disparities, but there are so minimal, they are hardly noticeable. In WVW I've downed many players who were clearly higher level than I was. I'm not saying there isn't a small level of disparity, but based on how you were describing it, I believe you were exaggerating the disparity and misinforming the reader. Lower level players are not "gimped" when fighting higher level players in WVW, yes, they may be slightly less powerful with a little less health, but the disparity is not near what you claim it to be.
Orange: Gear grind is not infinite! It may take a long time to get all the gear, and if you fail to get it before the next patch, yes it may appear never-ending, but it is not infinite.
Orange-Red: Just because you save up (you don't have to) for the gear coming in the next patch does not make it infinite. By the way, if you can save up for the next patch, I guess you not only got all the gear for the current patch but you had so much extra time you are able to save up for the next set of gear... not bad.
Summary: I think ya'll are ignoring each other's arguments. Not all GW2 players hate gear and level progression, at least I don't hate them, I just don't lie the monotony. GW2 does not get rid of all grinding, what I think it does, and very well might I add, is disguise whatever little grind it has in order to improve the gameplay experience. No game is without a certain amount of grind, the key though is to mask it in order for the players to not notice it. Just my two cents, please don't be too rough on me haha :-)
A lot of people will also stick to GW2 just so they don't need to admit they were wrong.
I.E the case Star Wars: The Old Republic.
And TSW.
Nah 1 month in 14 days /played ability wheel at 50% and haven't did any of the stories or investigations. The best part 10/20 man raids Aug. 31st. Might get Aux. weapons too. So much to do in TSW atm.
14 days /played and wheel only at 50%? And you haven't done any story and investigations? I had 37% at 4 days /played.
Maybe someone who has not played TSW will believe you about how much content there really is. For some who has played it, your comment is laughable. I "beat" the game after about 5 days played. What was left was running the same 2 instances, grind zergy PvP or rerun the same quests in Transilvania to get more SP/AP, which I wasn't going to do.
I have 43% unlocked at about 7-8 days played. I have not yet completed all quests in Transylvania. If all you do is grind quests of course you're going to run out of quests. Oci, you didn't even complete the Nightmares once, so you have plenty left to do.
Blue: There are limits to both gear grinding and leveling, as to how long it takes a player to get there depends on the player. I understand what you're saying. If you don't get all the new gear before a newer set arrives, it does seem to make the gear grind endless, but there is an end, problem is you just didn't get there fast enough. Having said that however, I would not be surprised that that there is a bit of intentionality in the process; release newer gear before the average player (majority of players) gets there in order to keep them in the treadmill, thus spending money on your game.
Blue-Red: New gear is not rendered worthless by newer gear, it's just not as powerful. In WOW, you can still participate in raids, but don't expect to be the highest dps in the group.
While there is a limit on how MUCH gear you need to grind per content release, you are always aware that you will being DEing pieces of gear fairly soon down the road. The knowledge that you are going to be replacing your gear in the very near future is always there. The gear grind, at least in WoW, is indeed infinite. Every 3 - 6 months, it's happening. Actually, even during the 3-6 months, it's happening as you replace older gear along the way. This process goes on forever (assuming you are interested in seeing the new content).
To make matters worse, with a gear treadmill, the newest and best gear trivializes all older content (including the content that you just spend a month trying to master in many cases).
The crazy part is that I really like WoW. I had a lot of fun in that game. And I can definitely see the draw of getting rewarded all the time. These days I'd just rather be able to focus on doing the things I like to do rather than do some grinding before I have access to doing the things I actually like to do. I don't think it's abnormal and I think a lot of people are on board with that sentiment.
Blue: There are limits to both gear grinding and leveling, as to how long it takes a player to get there depends on the player. I understand what you're saying. If you don't get all the new gear before a newer set arrives, it does seem to make the gear grind endless, but there is an end, problem is you just didn't get there fast enough. Having said that however, I would not be surprised that that there is a bit of intentionality in the process; release newer gear before the average player (majority of players) gets there in order to keep them in the treadmill, thus spending money on your game.
Blue-Red: New gear is not rendered worthless by newer gear, it's just not as powerful. In WOW, you can still participate in raids, but don't expect to be the highest dps in the group.
While there is a limit on how MUCH gear you need to grind per content release, you are always aware that you will being DEing pieces of gear fairly soon down the road. The knowledge that you are going to be replacing your gear in the very near future is always there. The gear grind, at least in WoW, is indeed infinite. Every 3 - 6 months, it's happening. Actually, even during the 3-6 months, it's happening as you replace older gear along the way. This process goes on forever (assuming you are interested in seeing the new content).
To make matters worse, with a gear treadmill, the newest and best gear trivializes all older content (including the content that you just spend a month trying to master in many cases).
The crazy part is that I really like WoW. I had a lot of fun in that game. And I can definitely see the draw of getting rewarded all the time. These days I'd just rather be able to focus on doing the things I like to do rather than do some grinding before I have access to doing the things I actually like to do. I don't think it's abnormal and I think a lot of people are on board with that sentiment.
To me that's the saddest aspect of WOW; the trivialization of old content. One of the things I like the most in GW2 is that you can always go back and revisit/redo old content and its fun due to level scaling.
Blue: There are limits to both gear grinding and leveling, as to how long it takes a player to get there depends on the player. I understand what you're saying. If you don't get all the new gear before a newer set arrives, it does seem to make the gear grind endless, but there is an end, problem is you just didn't get there fast enough. Having said that however, I would not be surprised that that there is a bit of intentionality in the process; release newer gear before the average player (majority of players) gets there in order to keep them in the treadmill, thus spending money on your game.
Blue-Red: New gear is not rendered worthless by newer gear, it's just not as powerful. In WOW, you can still participate in raids, but don't expect to be the highest dps in the group.
While there is a limit on how MUCH gear you need to grind per content release, you are always aware that you will being DEing pieces of gear fairly soon down the road. The knowledge that you are going to be replacing your gear in the very near future is always there. The gear grind, at least in WoW, is indeed infinite. Every 3 - 6 months, it's happening. Actually, even during the 3-6 months, it's happening as you replace older gear along the way. This process goes on forever (assuming you are interested in seeing the new content).
To make matters worse, with a gear treadmill, the newest and best gear trivializes all older content (including the content that you just spend a month trying to master in many cases).
The crazy part is that I really like WoW. I had a lot of fun in that game. And I can definitely see the draw of getting rewarded all the time. These days I'd just rather be able to focus on doing the things I like to do rather than do some grinding before I have access to doing the things I actually like to do. I don't think it's abnormal and I think a lot of people are on board with that sentiment.
To me that's the saddest aspect of WOW; the trivialization of old content. One of the things I like the most in GW2 is that you can always go back and revisit/redo old content and its fun due to level scaling.
And if you take their system further, no matter how much content they release and where they release it, it will always be relevant. Forever. Even if they raise the cap, all of the stuff that was awesome and hard at 80, will still be awesome and hard at 90.
For an example, in WoW, you would have access to 9 million raids that are relevant if they used a similar system to GW2.
I think it's going to be an intetresting experiment. best of my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong, please!), this is the first game that has done ALL of the following at the same time:
Eschewed traditional "endgame" PvE raiding.
Used de-levelling in zones so that no content is irrelevant to your level.
Used such a nearly flat gear curve.
Encouraged you to go back and do areas you haven't completed for something more than meaningless achievement points.
It's a unique concept of PvE endgame, and it may or may not work out. It's one of my biggest concerns for the game...but if it works out, it may actually revolutionize the idea that endgame=raiding in PvE, or that the entire levelling experience is just a meaningless way to get to cap so you can do the "real" content.
To me that's the saddest aspect of WOW; the trivialization of old content. One of the things I like the most in GW2 is that you can always go back and revisit/redo old content and its fun due to level scaling.
And if you take their system further, no matter how much content they release and where they release it, it will always be relevant. Forever. Even if they raise the cap, all of the stuff that was awesome and hard at 80, will still be awesome and hard at 90.
For an example, in WoW, you would have access to 9 million raids that are relevant if they used a similar system to GW2.
True, you would be able to go back to the Scarlet Monastery as a lvl 85 (having your lvl scaled back) and it would be nearly as fun as it was when you were a cute little lowbie... sad, so sad.
To me that's the saddest aspect of WOW; the trivialization of old content. One of the things I like the most in GW2 is that you can always go back and revisit/redo old content and its fun due to level scaling.
And if you take their system further, no matter how much content they release and where they release it, it will always be relevant. Forever. Even if they raise the cap, all of the stuff that was awesome and hard at 80, will still be awesome and hard at 90.
For an example, in WoW, you would have access to 9 million raids that are relevant if they used a similar system to GW2.
True, you would be able to go back to the Scarlet Monastery as a lvl 85 (having your lvl scaled back) and it would be nearly as fun as it was when you were a cute little lowbie... sad, so sad.
And having a gear treadmill destroys that design concept that I like so much. Because as the gear gets better and better, more and more stuff would be trivialized.
I think it's going to be an intetresting experiment. best of my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong, please!), this is the first game that has done ALL of the following at the same time:
Eschewed traditional "endgame" PvE raiding.
Used de-levelling in zones so that no content is irrelevant to your level.
Used such a nearly flat gear curve.
Encouraged you to go back and do areas you haven't completed for something more than meaningless achievement points.
It's a unique concept of PvE endgame, and it may or may not work out. It's one of my biggest concerns for the game...but if it works out, it may actually revolutionize the idea that endgame=raiding in PvE, or that the entire levelling experience is just a meaningless way to get to cap so you can do the "real" content.
I agree...it will be interesting. And i'll be glad to try it out myself.
I just don't understand why people that don't like it have to say: ''You'll see in 2 months when it fails''. If I didn't like it I wouldn't play it but for sure I wouldn't wish for it to fail. For me the more diversities in gaming we have it has more quality.
Take SWTOR for example. I played that game and loved leveling. It was really fun. But when I got to so called ''endgame'' I realised it was exactly same as most other games. Nothing new so when I got tired of leveling I stoped playing.
If all games had same gameplay and features gaming would be boring. Instead of wishing for everything new to fail we should try it out and see if it fits us or not
Guild Wars 2's endgame is just like the game. According to MMOFTW: "It's all carrot no stick".
You will keep doing what you've been doing from lvl 1-80, mostly. Either you like it or you don't, it is not like Lineage where you have to grind through boredom to get to the PvP part.
I think it's going to be an intetresting experiment. best of my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong, please!), this is the first game that has done ALL of the following at the same time:
Eschewed traditional "endgame" PvE raiding.
Used de-levelling in zones so that no content is irrelevant to your level.
Used such a nearly flat gear curve.
Encouraged you to go back and do areas you haven't completed for something more than meaningless achievement points.
It's a unique concept of PvE endgame, and it may or may not work out. It's one of my biggest concerns for the game...but if it works out, it may actually revolutionize the idea that endgame=raiding in PvE, or that the entire levelling experience is just a meaningless way to get to cap so you can do the "real" content.
nice post
the only time ive experienced something similar was in Everquest where you would be level capped but grind AA doing anything
raiding was the endgame in EQ but the AA system gave perks for nonraiders to work on despite being max level
And if you take their system further, no matter how much content they release and where they release it, it will always be relevant. Forever. Even if they raise the cap, all of the stuff that was awesome and hard at 80, will still be awesome and hard at 90.
For an example, in WoW, you would have access to 9 million raids that are relevant if they used a similar system to GW2.
this is the big one for me. How the DE system works they are hardly ever play out exactly the same in later zones and branch out a lot more further in the game you get. Also Anet has said they will continue to expand and add new ones. Also having access to essentially 32 dungeons at level 80 and any they add in the future will always be worth running through for rewards and a challenge. Doing this offers an insane amount of replayability compared to similar games.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The real fun of going back to early level content should happen about three to six months after release, depending on sales over time. By then the DEs will have a chance to play out a little more without having 20 people mob on the same location.
I think GW2 is a game that will get better over time. Orr will be pivotal in keeping the initial content locusts busy enough as the casual players settle out amongst the zones. By then the game will be "ripe" IMO.
Ehm, no, the problem is that the game will inevitably be "no longer fun" in a few months - like all themeparks. Now, I fully agree that introducing gear grind is a very poor excuse to extend the lifetime of a game - but it STILL offers MORE than GW2 with NO grind.
Untrue. GW2 will have more "end game" content because (on top of other things) you'll be able to do lower level events/dungeons and they will still be a fun challenge. In a typical MMO you're limited to running the same 2 or 3 instances over and over and over and over because there's nothing else to do. Just because you get an upgrade every once in a blue moon doesn't mean that's more content.
I have no idea why people keep grinding gear if they don't think that's fun - but I never did. Personally, I'm ok with the way the token system has been introduced that put a natural limit on how much "grind" the games had. I still don't like the grind - but if the games offered more than simply content repetition - then I'd have much more fun going for gear than going for nothing at all.
Problem is that neither GW2 - nor any other themepark offer MORE than repetition of similar content. They're still just themeparks with developer-created "rides" that will naturally exhaust their own fun. GW2 does NOTHING to alleviate this.
Neither does any other game, including sandbox MMO's. Just because you're building your own towns or whatever doesn't mean it's not repetitive. In fact, often times sandbox MMO's are even worse because of all the material gathering you have to do every time someone burns it to the ground.
By almost entirely removing the gear grind - ArenaNet has cured the disease by killing the patient. They might think that's brilliant - and their fans might think that's brilliant - but I certainly don't. It just means even less of a reason to repeat content.
If you need a gear grind to entice you to repeat content you're bored of (and often times paying the company a monthly fee in the process) then perhaps it's not such a good thing after all.
I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.
It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.
In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.
I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.
It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.
In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.
You were also playing a Guardian....which probably needs a little bit of a survivability nerf. But holding that aside...there's a far cry between "Being able to fight off 3-4 mobs without serious danger" and "running around the zone watching mobs 1-shot themselves on your damage aura and never losing a single hp"
I don't doubt level 1 zones will be much easier as an 80..but you will get usable loot and rewards, and combat will be far more involved than if you were a level 85 walking into the newbiew area in WoW.
I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.
It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.
In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.
It's true that low level content isn't tuned for a higher level character, higher level characters have utility and elite skills, not available for lower level characters. I believe the break point will be at level 30. At level 30 a character will have access to all skill slots (including elite) which can make a huge difference in battle. From 30 to 80 there shouldn't be such a huge difference in difficulty.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
You already posted that a few pages back, no one is neglecting to read it. You have no idea how ANet is going to adjust for gear tiers or upgrades when scaling back. The BWEs seemed designed for play up to the point where you would have that gear.
In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.
ANET has said that live team will be actively adding new DEs beginning with the first day of launch
whether these new DEs are challenging w level scaling remains to be seen
I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.
It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.
In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all
People understand that it's imbalanced right now. I complained about it in every BETA weekend myself. They even commented on that very subject in the BETA weekends. They were still working on balancing the downscaling and will continue to tweek the system in place.
We have yet to see how far they are going to take it, but obviously, if they are going to implement a massive downscaling system in the game, they would prefer to actually have the players that use the feature to actually be downscaled enough to find the content challenging. It is likely that they just haven't quite reached a spot that makes sense.
We'll see soon enough how good they get the balancing, but they were indeed still balancing that aspect and were talking about it openly.
Originally posted by seridan Originally posted by XiaokiI think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.
It's true that low level content isn't tuned for a higher level character, higher level characters have utility and elite skills, not available for lower level characters. I believe the break point will be at level 30. At level 30 a character will have access to all skill slots (including elite) which can make a huge difference in battle. From 30 to 80 there shouldn't be such a huge difference in difficulty. Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.
Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone?
What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?
Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.
Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone?
What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?
The numbers get reduced. Quality stays the same, enhancements like runes are still there, but the bonuses from them are lower. a +20 to power might be dropped to +2 in a level 1 zone, etc.
Again, you have a major, major advantage compared to running through it initially in grey/blue gear. but you're not gonna be one shotting everything, and you're not gonna be able to fight 50+ mobs at once and never lose hp.
Originally posted by XiaokiI think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.
It's true that low level content isn't tuned for a higher level character, higher level characters have utility and elite skills, not available for lower level characters. I believe the break point will be at level 30. At level 30 a character will have access to all skill slots (including elite) which can make a huge difference in battle. From 30 to 80 there shouldn't be such a huge difference in difficulty.
Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.
Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone?
What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?
Terrant answered this one above
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.
Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone?
What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?
The numbers get reduced. Quality stays the same, enhancements like runes are still there, but the bonuses from them are lower. a +20 to power might be dropped to +2 in a level 1 zone, etc.
Again, you have a major, major advantage compared to running through it initially in grey/blue gear. but you're not gonna be one shotting everything, and you're not gonna be able to fight 50+ mobs at once and never lose hp.
I do wish they had a way of normalizing gear for lower levels. I didn't see what is quoted in yellow above when I backtracked but then again I didn't look for it, so it may happen. There's no real way of controlling for the traits or the higher-tiered skills you unlock if you backtrack, other than the grey them out which wouldn't make sense.
I expect the starter zones, and probably the 15-25 zones, will always remain "easier" for high level players. I expect the curve to normalize in the later zones as they are already tuned for players that have unlocked their elite skills.
Of course, everything like this is just conjecture at this point. Still, I would rather have this than the systems that we normally see in place in MMOs.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Comments
ok, here's my attempt to answer to all you guys...
Yellow: I can't speak for others much like you can't assume all GW2 fans are all the same. Gear grind is very different from "level grind" (more accurately, leveling). Not sure how leveling can even be considered grinding, unless you can only lvl by gear grinding and only gear grind by mindlessly doing repetitive quests. Gear grinding is a mechanic to trap players in an endless treadmill in order to get them to keep playing and spending money in the game (whether it be via monthly subs or CS's). Leveling is a game mechanic with the purpose of measuring the progress of players through what monsters/players you can kill, what gear/armor you can equip, and what quests/DE's you can do. In other words, leveling is a tool that the devs use in order to separate the progression various elements of gameplay throughout the progression of said gameplay. Not sure how you can even call leveling "level grind", unless the game you're playing sucks so much that even leveling your player feels like a grind because of the mindlessly repetitive and limited choices you have.
Yellow-Red: Just because things share commonalities (only two in your case) does not make them the same. There are liberal fanatics and conservative fanatics, but you would be hard pressed to find two groups more different from each other.
Blue: There are limits to both gear grinding and leveling, as to how long it takes a player to get there depends on the player. I understand what you're saying. If you don't get all the new gear before a newer set arrives, it does seem to make the gear grind endless, but there is an end, problem is you just didn't get there fast enough. Having said that however, I would not be surprised that that there is a bit of intentionality in the process; release newer gear before the average player (majority of players) gets there in order to keep them in the treadmill, thus spending money on your game.
Blue-Red: New gear is not rendered worthless by newer gear, it's just not as powerful. In WOW, you can still participate in raids, but don't expect to be the highest dps in the group.
Green: I highly doubt that, I am a true casual wow player (my last month until my account expires in order to play GW2) and it does take me longer than a month to get complete sets of gear; whether they pve and/or pvp. I think you're being a bit disingenuous with your measurements of time in regards to acquiring gear; one of wow's biggest sins, in my opinion of course, is that wow requires a lot of time in order to make it worth playing; one of the biggest reasons why I'm switching over to GW2.
Green-Red1: Gear does matter other than just in pvp, especially in WOW. In order to get into any decent raiding groups you need a certain overall gear level; it may not matter as much, but it certainly does matter. No denying that my friend.
Green-Red2: Again with being disingenuous. There are indeed gear and level disparities, but there are so minimal, they are hardly noticeable. In WVW I've downed many players who were clearly higher level than I was. I'm not saying there isn't a small level of disparity, but based on how you were describing it, I believe you were exaggerating the disparity and misinforming the reader. Lower level players are not "gimped" when fighting higher level players in WVW, yes, they may be slightly less powerful with a little less health, but the disparity is not near what you claim it to be.
Orange: Gear grind is not infinite! It may take a long time to get all the gear, and if you fail to get it before the next patch, yes it may appear never-ending, but it is not infinite.
Orange-Red: Just because you save up (you don't have to) for the gear coming in the next patch does not make it infinite. By the way, if you can save up for the next patch, I guess you not only got all the gear for the current patch but you had so much extra time you are able to save up for the next set of gear... not bad.
Summary: I think ya'll are ignoring each other's arguments. Not all GW2 players hate gear and level progression, at least I don't hate them, I just don't lie the monotony. GW2 does not get rid of all grinding, what I think it does, and very well might I add, is disguise whatever little grind it has in order to improve the gameplay experience. No game is without a certain amount of grind, the key though is to mask it in order for the players to not notice it. Just my two cents, please don't be too rough on me haha :-)
http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Oci
Seven days /played. I repeated Transylavania a couple times already before I just called it quits before the beta weekend for GW2.
BOOYAKA!
While there is a limit on how MUCH gear you need to grind per content release, you are always aware that you will being DEing pieces of gear fairly soon down the road. The knowledge that you are going to be replacing your gear in the very near future is always there. The gear grind, at least in WoW, is indeed infinite. Every 3 - 6 months, it's happening. Actually, even during the 3-6 months, it's happening as you replace older gear along the way. This process goes on forever (assuming you are interested in seeing the new content).
To make matters worse, with a gear treadmill, the newest and best gear trivializes all older content (including the content that you just spend a month trying to master in many cases).
The crazy part is that I really like WoW. I had a lot of fun in that game. And I can definitely see the draw of getting rewarded all the time. These days I'd just rather be able to focus on doing the things I like to do rather than do some grinding before I have access to doing the things I actually like to do. I don't think it's abnormal and I think a lot of people are on board with that sentiment.
To me that's the saddest aspect of WOW; the trivialization of old content. One of the things I like the most in GW2 is that you can always go back and revisit/redo old content and its fun due to level scaling.
And if you take their system further, no matter how much content they release and where they release it, it will always be relevant. Forever. Even if they raise the cap, all of the stuff that was awesome and hard at 80, will still be awesome and hard at 90.
For an example, in WoW, you would have access to 9 million raids that are relevant if they used a similar system to GW2.
I think it's going to be an intetresting experiment. best of my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong, please!), this is the first game that has done ALL of the following at the same time:
True, you would be able to go back to the Scarlet Monastery as a lvl 85 (having your lvl scaled back) and it would be nearly as fun as it was when you were a cute little lowbie... sad, so sad.
And having a gear treadmill destroys that design concept that I like so much. Because as the gear gets better and better, more and more stuff would be trivialized.
I agree...it will be interesting. And i'll be glad to try it out myself.
I just don't understand why people that don't like it have to say: ''You'll see in 2 months when it fails''. If I didn't like it I wouldn't play it but for sure I wouldn't wish for it to fail. For me the more diversities in gaming we have it has more quality.
Take SWTOR for example. I played that game and loved leveling. It was really fun. But when I got to so called ''endgame'' I realised it was exactly same as most other games. Nothing new so when I got tired of leveling I stoped playing.
If all games had same gameplay and features gaming would be boring. Instead of wishing for everything new to fail we should try it out and see if it fits us or not
Guild Wars 2's endgame is just like the game. According to MMOFTW: "It's all carrot no stick".
You will keep doing what you've been doing from lvl 1-80, mostly. Either you like it or you don't, it is not like Lineage where you have to grind through boredom to get to the PvP part.
nice post
the only time ive experienced something similar was in Everquest where you would be level capped but grind AA doing anything
raiding was the endgame in EQ but the AA system gave perks for nonraiders to work on despite being max level
EQ2 fan sites
this is the big one for me. How the DE system works they are hardly ever play out exactly the same in later zones and branch out a lot more further in the game you get. Also Anet has said they will continue to expand and add new ones. Also having access to essentially 32 dungeons at level 80 and any they add in the future will always be worth running through for rewards and a challenge. Doing this offers an insane amount of replayability compared to similar games.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I think GW2 is a game that will get better over time. Orr will be pivotal in keeping the initial content locusts busy enough as the casual players settle out amongst the zones. By then the game will be "ripe" IMO.
I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.
It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.
In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.
You were also playing a Guardian....which probably needs a little bit of a survivability nerf. But holding that aside...there's a far cry between "Being able to fight off 3-4 mobs without serious danger" and "running around the zone watching mobs 1-shot themselves on your damage aura and never losing a single hp"
I don't doubt level 1 zones will be much easier as an 80..but you will get usable loot and rewards, and combat will be far more involved than if you were a level 85 walking into the newbiew area in WoW.
It's true that low level content isn't tuned for a higher level character, higher level characters have utility and elite skills, not available for lower level characters. I believe the break point will be at level 30. At level 30 a character will have access to all skill slots (including elite) which can make a huge difference in battle. From 30 to 80 there shouldn't be such a huge difference in difficulty.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
You already posted that a few pages back, no one is neglecting to read it. You have no idea how ANet is going to adjust for gear tiers or upgrades when scaling back. The BWEs seemed designed for play up to the point where you would have that gear.
ANET has said that live team will be actively adding new DEs beginning with the first day of launch
whether these new DEs are challenging w level scaling remains to be seen
EQ2 fan sites
People understand that it's imbalanced right now. I complained about it in every BETA weekend myself. They even commented on that very subject in the BETA weekends. They were still working on balancing the downscaling and will continue to tweek the system in place.
We have yet to see how far they are going to take it, but obviously, if they are going to implement a massive downscaling system in the game, they would prefer to actually have the players that use the feature to actually be downscaled enough to find the content challenging. It is likely that they just haven't quite reached a spot that makes sense.
We'll see soon enough how good they get the balancing, but they were indeed still balancing that aspect and were talking about it openly.
Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.
Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone?
What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?
The numbers get reduced. Quality stays the same, enhancements like runes are still there, but the bonuses from them are lower. a +20 to power might be dropped to +2 in a level 1 zone, etc.
Again, you have a major, major advantage compared to running through it initially in grey/blue gear. but you're not gonna be one shotting everything, and you're not gonna be able to fight 50+ mobs at once and never lose hp.
Terrant answered this one above
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I do wish they had a way of normalizing gear for lower levels. I didn't see what is quoted in yellow above when I backtracked but then again I didn't look for it, so it may happen. There's no real way of controlling for the traits or the higher-tiered skills you unlock if you backtrack, other than the grey them out which wouldn't make sense.
I expect the starter zones, and probably the 15-25 zones, will always remain "easier" for high level players. I expect the curve to normalize in the later zones as they are already tuned for players that have unlocked their elite skills.
Of course, everything like this is just conjecture at this point. Still, I would rather have this than the systems that we normally see in place in MMOs.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.