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Skill Based Gaming

killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
GW2 is marketed as being skill based over gear based and from what I have seen so far, it does seem to be the truth.  The question I have is will this work for players over the long term?  The game is not going to cater to the average player, rather some upper percentage of skilled players.  I know everyone likes to believe they are highly skilled and will be the winner in a skill based game, but we all know that's not the case.  The minority will be the "winners", with the majority losing to them in sPvP and WvW.  Depending on how hard the dungeons and large scale DE's are, the majority may even "lose" in PvE.  If the top 25% of players in terms of skill are stomping out the other 75% of players with less skill, will it drive players off or will players work to increase their skill to a competitive level?  (These percentages are not based on any concrete numbers, but they are plausible and adequate for consideration of the idea behind the question.)
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Comments

  • DawnstarDawnstar Pleasant Hill, CAPosts: 207Member Uncommon
    There may be some who are driven off, but my experience with most others are that they are pretty competitive, so I see most trying to improve their game.
  • DaezAsterDaezAster new york, NYPosts: 803Member
    For me it's the best part and something I've always felt rpg's in general did poorly (playable combat). I always loved fighting games and top down shooters of old where you had to weave the bullets spitting at you from all angles. Gw2 feels right to me in that sort of way. We all have our own preferences though....
  • rachmat19rachmat19 MelbournePosts: 29Member

    Isn't it the same with gear, though? Only the top whatever percent would have the absolute best gear in other games...

    In all honesy, i prefer GW2 as it is more of a skill-based thing rather than whoever played for the longest time. Playing more makes you better, sure, but it's not as big a diff compared to gear-based game out there. I would see this system as being MORE fair rather than more unfair...

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon

    It's pretty easy to hide behind the masses in WvW.

     

    You can look at WoW for an example. They had an area of the game where the highly skilled players weer able to compete with each other and less skilled players had a choice on whether they wanted to participate. As an alternative, they could also choose to go into random BGs and just have a little fun.

     

    WvW is that replacement for casual style gamers to have some fun and contribute to something great for their side. WvW does not require excellence at duel style or arena style gaming as much as it requires a broader sense of strategy. There will also be random BG style stuff where people can go in and get some practice outside of tournament play.

  • Bama1267Bama1267 Waterloo, NYPosts: 1,847Member
    Those same players lose regardless of gear anyway in other games. The only difference is they have no momentary relief from getting gear and beating players with less gear. But ultimately those players would lose when it counted  to players in equal gear.
  • AdzijaAdzija ImotskiPosts: 58Member

    It's hard to say how will it work in long term.

    But good thing is that those skilled players will not get some uber PVP gear that will make them even more powerfull, so those with less skill still have chance to find build that suites them and maybe after a while also be a bit more skilled.

    I hope that people will not be driven off. I know in WOW which i played mostly when I got to lvl cap and started pvp-ing there were players with few tiers of pvp gear higher than mine and that didn't help me even if I was skilled. Here at least, those that are skilled will not get better gear so they are stomping those with less skill even more.

    That alone might motivate players to practice because eventually they might be able to catch up.

  • tokinitokini third hut on the leftPosts: 341Member Common

     

    no, i dont think a potentially high degree of difficulty will negatively impact the game.

    WvW will be a LOT more forgiving, a horde of lesser players can hitch onto and follwo instructions from some better players and be successful, in Spvp yeah good players will smach lesser ones.

     

    there is also essentially easy and hard modes of pve dungeons, so as in any other game, some players will never be able to complete a harder difficulty level. has been that way since NES days. the regular pve is not hard, at all. even a real dullard will motor through it.

     

     

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    A game like LoL has right now more active players than WoW. I don't think they all consider themselves highly skilled. I would say the vast mayority are "average" gamers, as long as you get matched up against other players in your same skill level and keep getting better there is no problem.

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  • MeriikMeriik Amherst, NYPosts: 53Member Uncommon

    From what i've seen in the beta's so far, combat is pretty quick paced and lots of opportunity for skill based gameplay, especially in spvp. At least in my experience in spvp i was always matched up with players of similar skill, i wasnt stomping anyone and wasnt getting stomped on. I dont know if this was due to the games balancing system, or just my own skill level being average or something.  If it was in fact due to the matchmaking system then it seems like it might cater to more casual players as well.

    PvE has lots of opprotunities for more casual gameplay, althought not nearly as easy as say WoW you can still take your time and progress through content with reletive ease, they just might have to skip a couple events though. On the other side, a more hardcore gamer could find challeng in trying to solo to duo some of the zone bosses as i found myself doing, a ton of fun i might add.  There are also things such as, crafting, exploring, minigames, jump puzzles to keep everyone occupied outside of combat.

    Really cant say much about WvW since i didnt participate much, it seems fairly straightforward though with rushing keeps and seiging, not quite as demanding on the player as spvp.

    Overall its a great game, casuals and hardcore are both going to enjoy it, there is enough content for the casuals to not feel left out, and there is enough competition for the hardcore players to not get bored.

     

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by killion81
    GW2 is marketed as being skill based over gear based and from what I have seen so far, it does seem to be the truth.  The question I have is will this work for players over the long term?  The game is not going to cater to the average player, rather some upper percentage of skilled players.  I know everyone likes to believe they are highly skilled and will be the winner in a skill based game, but we all know that's not the case.  The minority will be the "winners", with the majority losing to them in sPvP and WvW.  Depending on how hard the dungeons and large scale DE's are, the majority may even "lose" in PvE.  If the top 25% of players in terms of skill are stomping out the other 75% of players with less skill, will it drive players off or will players work to increase their skill to a competitive level?  (These percentages are not based on any concrete numbers, but they are plausible and adequate for consideration of the idea behind the question.)

    Keep in mind that all of the harder content in this game has tiers.

    Dungeons have story mode & explorable mode. So, lesser skilled players should be able to accomplish storymode, but the rewards won't be quite as much as explorable mode.

    Same deal w/ sPvP. There's regular games for lesser skilled players, and tournaments for the more hardcore.

    Obviously, the people who are able to handle the harder difficulty will be rewarded more for it, but lesser skilled players can still experience the content on a weaker difficulty setting.

  • KrossliteKrosslite Folsom, PAPosts: 317Member
    Originally posted by killion81
    GW2 is marketed as being skill based over gear based and from what I have seen so far, it does seem to be the truth.  The question I have is will this work for players over the long term?  The game is not going to cater to the average player, rather some upper percentage of skilled players.  I know everyone likes to believe they are highly skilled and will be the winner in a skill based game, but we all know that's not the case.  The minority will be the "winners", with the majority losing to them in sPvP and WvW.  Depending on how hard the dungeons and large scale DE's are, the majority may even "lose" in PvE.  If the top 25% of players in terms of skill are stomping out the other 75% of players with less skill, will it drive players off or will players work to increase their skill to a competitive level?  (These percentages are not based on any concrete numbers, but they are plausible and adequate for consideration of the idea behind the question.)


    One of the main issues with gear based games is that you don't really require skill to play them. This is why younger players are drawn to them.

    Skill based gaming is a dexterity, as well as mind development type platform. These games are geared for more mature players and thus more likely to spend money. Now I know some very mature 14 year olds and some extremely immature 50 years olds.

    But that does not stop them from developing in skills to play a game. I have witnessed many grow into skills while I have seen extremely few never develop skills.

    Those that I have seen that don't develop usually have no real desire to play the game in the first place. While those that are really interested in what they are playing become better and better over time.

    As for your percentages you are stating numbers that are mostly found in a game like WoW which is a gear based game. So those numbers have no relivents and should be removed even with your quailifier statement at the end of your post.

    A MMO is like life. It is something to cherish and enjoy upon in it journey. So why race to the end of it. In life at the end you die.

  • BeilochBeiloch Sun City, CAPosts: 74Member
    Originally posted by killion81
    GW2 is marketed as being skill based over gear based and from what I have seen so far, it does seem to be the truth.

    Not to me. Has gear just like any other game and I was doing quite well in pve content and PvP with a typical WoW-ish half-attentive playing. If this is skill based combat so is DDO.

    Seriously, the GW2 people REALLY need to stop acting like this requires several levels more skill to play well than other games. It just doesn't. I'll grant it requires more skill, especially more than WoW. But it's hardly the other side of the coin.

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    PvE is cooperative,  not competative, so there is no rolfstomping of casuals by the hard core. Level Scaling and the cooperative nature of Dynamic Events give less skilled casuals plenty of outlets to continue thier leveling progress, even if they find they have trouble with content equal to their character level as they get deeper into the game.

    For WvW, servers will be paired against other servers of similar prowess. There will be a large variety of skill levels for individual players in WvW, but it's a cooperative effort and the less skilled will be able to tag along with the more skilled. More skilled players may have a better ability to tackle small group objectives, where as the less skilled may prefer to stick with the larger scale battles, but there will be a role for everyone.

    For sPvP, the most skilled will head up the leaderboards, will win formal tournaments and will earn prestige for their skill. However, there will be plenty of people of all skill levels playing matches and there is supposed to be the ability to designate some sPvP servers by skill level, so people can play in environments more suitable for their individual skill level.

    The biggest difference here for sPvP players is that having more time to grind PvP will not reward you with artificial advantages beyond the fact that practice helps make perfect. I've always thought it was a little odd that in other games, the people who were already going to have an advantage due to play experience, would also be the ones who would receive a large, added advantage though a gear grind.

    GW2 may suck for some gear grinder who dominated PvP in another game based more on successful gear grind, rather than player skill, but I think most people will appreciate that the game is based more on player skill and team work than some artificial boost.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
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  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob lexington, KYPosts: 871Member
    If you're just an ordinary player skillwise you'll always have an endless supply of other ordinary players to fight against in WvWvW and the pugged sPVP.
  • RiannesRiannes bangkokPosts: 71Member Uncommon

    the thing is those 75% less skilled players do not necessarily compete against the top 25% all the time.

     

    they are match-made (subjected to the system working effectively) to compete against probably within the upper 10% and the lower 10% bracket of their server skill level. so most servers will win some and lose some. i expect to see a few servers (3-4 of em) being at the very top tier and the rest circulating goes up and down all the time. most likely everybody can have some good fun and that will deter them from leaving the game.

  • yaoming36yaoming36 None of your damn business, INPosts: 189Member Uncommon

    From what I have exeperienced from the stress test and the beta events, combat in PvE is quite easy. Not easy as in target monster, faceroll keyboard and kill monster, but rather easy as in being able to kill the normal monster quite easily just by kiting (hold down the "a" key) and using normal attacks. I think biggest challenge for most players in PvE is accidently arrgoing too many mobs, which can result in your death very quickly but other than that, soloing a normal mob 1v1 is not hard. And since you can't really LOSE in PvE because if you die, anyone can rez you, I don't think it'll hinder players all that much.

    Now many dynamic event chains end is a type of boss or champion fight, and usually the more people there are, the harder it is, because as you all know these bosses scale to the amount of players there are. So killing a boss with alot of people might not be easier (I remember fighting a champion boss and thinking it'd be easy with 10+ people, mid way into fight, he aoe 1-2 hits all of us) but it is quite easy to kill some of these champions by using ranged weapon/abilities again with the kiting and occational dodging when you see a red circle on the ground. Now if you decide to meele these bosses of course it gets a LOT harder mainly cause the AI seem to target closer people to them.

    But soloing normal mobs is no problem as long as you aren't too underleveled. Soloing bosses/champions (not dungeons) on the other hand does require skill. I remember trying to take on this giant tree thing (looks just like one of the human elite skill) and I thought even though it was a champion, it'd be easy kill cause I was ranging and I could kite, turned out no so. So I just asked in chat for some help and two other players came. Took us about 15 minutes to kill this guy, just some pure fun!

    The monsters in dungeons are of course way more difficult, they aren't difficult as in they hit harder ( which they do), but they also have tricks up their sleeves. You actually have to think when to engage, when to run away, when to take out the minions, when and where to lure etc. But again with a coordinated group of players, or a random PUG with experienced players, it shouldn't be too difficult. 

    On the PvP aspect, I think in WvWvW you just need to stay out of the red circles as there are very few opportunities where you have to 1v1 someone. If you are doing sPvP, then yes you will need skill and talent, similar to any MOBA games, when its small group of players, you need to have skill to win. Here's the best part (in my opinion), you need skill to win in sPvP, and like you point out in your thread not everyone has that, BUT the rewards from sPvP can't be used in PvE. I mean sure you can get titles and various other nifities but you don't get awesome better looking skins. So someone like me, who isn't all that skilled at PvP,  I won't have to participate in sPvP in order to get awesome super duper looking armor. I can just participate in WvWvW for that :) 

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by Beiloch
    Originally posted by killion81
    GW2 is marketed as being skill based over gear based and from what I have seen so far, it does seem to be the truth.

    Not to me. Has gear just like any other game and I was doing quite well in pve content and PvP with a typical WoW-ish half-attentive playing. If this is skill based combat so is DDO.

    Seriously, the GW2 people REALLY need to stop acting like this requires several levels more skill to play well than other games. It just doesn't. I'll grant it requires more skill, especially more than WoW. But it's hardly the other side of the coin.


    Oh come on, DDO is one of the most skillless games out there.  All it is is a stats game and buffs and gear.  GW2 has a degree of skill in that you have choices in a build set up and have to curtail it to an encounter or your group with reaction being crucial unlike most MMOs out there.

  • BruceYeeBruceYee Los Angeles, CAPosts: 427Member Uncommon
    I thought I was good at pvp until I played GW2. I got the #@!% kicked outta me in all the BWE no matter what class I played. Had someone either smashing, stabbing or melting my face the entire time. I will be sticking with PVE for this one, will leave the pvp to the pros.
  • BlindchanceBlindchance WhywouldyouliketoknowPosts: 1,081Member
    Players will adapt, whinners will whine.
  • iamthekilleriamthekiller Port Richey, FLPosts: 93Member

    I'm glad the combat is "skill based".

     

    Can you imagine if you where allowed to have better gear then other players in competitive sports?

     

    I can just see it now...

    Batter #1 - Steps to the plate with a rocket powered titanium alloy hulksmash bat.

     

    Batter#2 - Steps to the plate with one of those swimming noodles...

     

    Looks like Batter#2 is gonna have to go grind some hours at his job in order to compete with Batter#1.

     

    Lolz non skillbased endgame..^^

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by BruceYee
    I thought I was good at pvp until I played GW2. I got the #@!% kicked outta me in all the BWE no matter what class I played. Had someone either smashing, stabbing or melting my face the entire time. I will be sticking with PVE for this one, will leave the pvp to the pros.

    Well could it be that you were up against coordination?  I remember in the BGs of WoW how when the faction is cordinated they tend to steamroll the opposing team.  WvWvW will heavily rely on team coordination I would imagine, at least if one side is cordinated and worked togeter while the other side approached it like walking up to a DE then the coordinated side will likely decimate the opposing team.

    I never see cross profession combos in DEs and think it'll play a significant factor in PvP when a team utilizes it.

  • kertinkertin StraznicePosts: 74Member Uncommon
    is GW2 skill based? No words needed, I have to laugh and it seems players dont know what skill is. TAB targeting will never require much skill even with this stupid evade system.
  • NaeviusNaevius Houston, TXPosts: 334Member Uncommon
    Unfortunately people have gotten so used to facerolling super easy MMO combat that I suspect some people will be put off by GW2's combat...not even because it is hard, but because you actually need to pay attention.
  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kertin
    is GW2 skill based? No words needed, I have to laugh and it seems players dont know what skill is

    What is skill? What game is skill based to you?

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  • kertinkertin StraznicePosts: 74Member Uncommon
    FPS (CS, Quake, CoD..), MOBAs (Dota, LoL, Smite, Bloodline Champions) - even WoW require more skill but depends a lot on equip so its bad:)
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