Whether or not anyone likes sony, I think had they had what bioware/ea had for money, we wouldn't have seen swg end up the way it did.
No.
Raph Koster could have been given 500 million dollars and 6 years to develop it and it still would have been a hollow shell of a game.
SWG was 90% community, 10% game...somehow I dont think another year would have changed a thing...oh wait, it didnt because all the expac released near a year later did was add space...
Can never say how glad I am he is in exile enough...the destroyer of games.
I would take Raph Koster over any game designer out there to make a MMO right now.
Raph Koster could have been given 500 million dollars and 6 years to develop it and it still would have been a hollow shell of a game.
SWG was 90% community, 10% game...somehow I dont think another year would have changed a thing...oh wait, it didnt because all the expac released near a year later did was add space...
Can never say how glad I am he is in exile enough...the destroyer of games.
I would take Raph Koster over any game designer out there to make a MMO right now.
Thankfully, no company will. The MMO genre doesnt need a sandbox made by him. They need a sandbox made by someone that knows what he is doing and he proved with 3 MMOs that he rides other peoples skills and takes credit for it while pushing the most generic of ideas. That is how SWG got stuck with worlds with no 3d x/y axis and ground done with a random generator along with a great many other lazy programming mistakes.
Raph Koster could have been given 500 million dollars and 6 years to develop it and it still would have been a hollow shell of a game.
SWG was 90% community, 10% game...somehow I dont think another year would have changed a thing...oh wait, it didnt because all the expac released near a year later did was add space...
Can never say how glad I am he is in exile enough...the destroyer of games.
I would take Raph Koster over any game designer out there to make a MMO right now.
Thankfully, no company will. The MMO genre doesnt need a sandbox made by him. They need a sandbox made by someone that knows what he is doing and he proved with 3 MMOs that he rides other peoples skills and takes credit for it while pushing the most generic of ideas. That is how SWG got stuck with worlds with no 3d x/y axis and ground done with a random generator along with a great many other lazy programming mistakes.
Times have changed, his vision is what is needed. He can hire competent developers and programmers who can make the technical aspects better. Again, his vision is needed in this day in age of MMOs.
Thankfully, no company will. The MMO genre doesnt need a sandbox made by him. They need a sandbox made by someone that knows what he is doing and he proved with 3 MMOs that he rides other peoples skills and takes credit for it while pushing the most generic of ideas. That is how SWG got stuck with worlds with no 3d x/y axis and ground done with a random generator along with a great many other lazy programming mistakes.
Times have changed, his vision is what is needed. He can hire competent developers and programmers who can make the technical aspects better. Again, his vision is needed in this day in age of MMOs.
No. Times have changed because of his ideas taking hold. Namely the idea that "game makers need to tell players what they want" idea of his...they even use his freaking forum tactics of shutting down people who speak out against the game...one of his keep points in several of his GDC speeches was controlling the forums as well as ignoring what he called the vocal minority.
It was Koster that pushed the genre into ignoring the players. Hell, before his big mouth we had actual CLOSED beta testing where the company WORKED WITH THE TESTERS and listened to feedback.
We dont need Koster, we need FRESH NEW IDEAS...he didnt make the first sandbox, he didnt make the last sandbox...and he sure as hell should make another MMO. This genre is so messed up that no company has wanted to touch him for 7 years yet for some reasons till invite him to come speak at the GDCs as if he has good ideas...jebus. We wont hire you because you suck...but we love the sound of your voice!
Thankfully, no company will. The MMO genre doesnt need a sandbox made by him. They need a sandbox made by someone that knows what he is doing and he proved with 3 MMOs that he rides other peoples skills and takes credit for it while pushing the most generic of ideas. That is how SWG got stuck with worlds with no 3d x/y axis and ground done with a random generator along with a great many other lazy programming mistakes.
Times have changed, his vision is what is needed. He can hire competent developers and programmers who can make the technical aspects better. Again, his vision is needed in this day in age of MMOs.
No. Times have changed because of his ideas taking hold. Namely the idea that "game makers need to tell players what they want" idea of his...they even use his freaking forum tactics of shutting down people who speak out against the game...one of his keep points in several of his GDC speeches was controlling the forums as well as ignoring what he called the vocal minority.
It was Koster that pushed the genre into ignoring the players. Hell, before his big mouth we had actual CLOSED beta testing where the company WORKED WITH THE TESTERS and listened to feedback.
We dont need Koster, we need FRESH NEW IDEAS...he didnt make the first sandbox, he didnt make the last sandbox...and he sure as hell should make another MMO. This genre is so messed up that no company has wanted to touch him for 7 years yet for some reasons till invite him to come speak at the GDCs as if he has good ideas...jebus. We wont hire you because you suck...but we love the sound of your voice!
I’m not here to defend Mr Koster, but the complainers of the NGE were official named “the vocal minority” at the SOE forums and with hindsight we have to agree that such statements were ill founded and plainly wrong.
Just because others chose to (miss) use his wordings in the wrong context you should not blame Koster for that. The real vocal minority then at the time for the NGE, are much the same kind of people that flamed people having any criticism of SWTOR. And look what we got…..
I think Mr Koster has proved himself right, don’t listen to the vocal minority.
I’m not here to defend Mr Koster, but the complainers of the NGE were official named “the vocal minority” at the SOE forums and with hindsight we have to agree that such statements were ill founded and plainly wrong.
Just because others chose to (miss) use his wordings in the wrong context you should not blame Koster for that. The real vocal minority then at the time for the NGE, are much the same kind of people that flamed people having any criticism of SWTOR. And look what we got…..
I think Mr Koster has proved himself right, don’t listen to the vocal minority.
Incorrect sir. He made the statement during SWG beta to try to shut down those complaining about the random generated ground with ditches every 10 feet, being able to shoot through the ground/walls, not being able to jump...he said developers should ignore the vocal minority so they dont lose focus on what the majority of players want and deviate to work on things few people care about.
That was a few weeks before he said one of the most insulting things I ever heard from a game maker...that the reason SWG is only allowing 1 character per player was due to the amount of ****ing polygons being far more than any other game before it. In fact, the faces of characters alone is more than complete characters in other MMOs...
About a 270 million dollar budget and 3.5 more years of development time.
Whether or not anyone likes sony, I think had they had what bioware/ea had for money, we wouldn't have seen swg end up the way it did. What really did in swg was the lack of theme park elements such as raids, and quests.
Can you imagine if we had that budget, story driven quests and quest hubs per planet..? I think swg would be going strong today.
I think the 32+ profressions, the lack of levels and somewhat forced socializing were just amazing. Not to mention how the crafting and resource gathering all inter mingled together to drive an economy.. My goodness.. Why hasn't someone taken the awesome crafting and economy from swg and used it in another mmo? Why do they all seem to copy that shit system wow devised? And why is no other game using social profressions?
You wanna know what was also great about swg... You only had one character per server... If you were a jack-ass everyone knew who you were, you couldn't hide unless you made a new guy.. And that was a big decision cause Im pretty sure you had to delete the old character to make a new one on the server you were on..Man, all these great ideas need to be heavily promoted in other developing games.. where are the old sony developers now? They can't have coded all that genuis into swg and forgot about it? Who made the crafting and resource system and what game are they in now? Why has no one used these systems and mixed them up with some wow systems.. I detest wow.. but everything is so wow based these days you can't avoid it..
The real problem is that the past few years game dev's make games they think people will love to watch,10 years ago they made games people actually loved to play.
I’m not here to defend Mr Koster, but the complainers of the NGE were official named “the vocal minority” at the SOE forums and with hindsight we have to agree that such statements were ill founded and plainly wrong.
Just because others chose to (miss) use his wordings in the wrong context you should not blame Koster for that. The real vocal minority then at the time for the NGE, are much the same kind of people that flamed people having any criticism of SWTOR. And look what we got…..
I think Mr Koster has proved himself right, don’t listen to the vocal minority.
Incorrect sir. He made the statement during SWG beta to try to shut down those complaining about the random generated ground with ditches every 10 feet, being able to shoot through the ground/walls, not being able to jump...he said developers should ignore the vocal minority so they dont lose focus on what the majority of players want and deviate to work on things few people care about.
That was a few weeks before he said one of the most insulting things I ever heard from a game maker...that the reason SWG is only allowing 1 character per player was due to the amount of ****ing polygons being far more than any other game before it. In fact, the faces of characters alone is more than complete characters in other MMOs...
The man was so full of himself it was sickening.
I'm sure you are correct, I don't know about that episode. But that does not invalidate my points about how the term was used by SOE at the time for the NGE. That was an official statement!
IMO, the REAL vocal minority is very often the fanatics / fanboys defending game X. The same people also often blame people with different minds to be haters. Or the vocal minority.
If SWG was such an incredible game, it would not have closed down.
I remember playing it the last year it was up. Aside from the one populated EU server (Starsider?) with only populated max level characters, the game was absolutely dead. I tried rolling a new toon just for the sake of doing it all again and I could not find anyone to group with. Sure, there were player-built cities, but they were ghost towns.
Added to that the bugs, lack of animations, clunky UI and interface and you had basically EQ in space. I liked it because it was SW. But it was never a great game.
OP..... Its very clear you never played SWG the right way. There was "raids" There was plenty to do in the game. Jedi didnt kill SWG. Little ****s like you did by saying it needed more WoW in it. It had some bugs ect but over all it was hands down the best MMO ever made.
Dont forget OP SWG became WoW then it died quickly. So i guess your wrong.
About a 270 million dollar budget and 3.5 more years of development time.
Whether or not anyone likes sony, I think had they had what bioware/ea had for money, we wouldn't have seen swg end up the way it did. What really did in swg was the lack of theme park elements such as raids, and quests.
Uhhhhhhhhh......
What did SWG was revamping the game to have raids and quests and theme park elements. That killed it outright. There's absolutely no debating that.
What would have made SWG better is if it hadn't had such a horrible buggy laggy launch, and if the Jedi system wasn't total garbage (which it was).
This. The bugs were horrible and the Jedi system was the worse thing they could have ever done to the game. All they did after that was cater to the whiners who thought that once you become jedi you should never lose to anyone else. It created an elitist mentality and a lot of resentment from players who had their templates nerfed every month. Also the professions that were broken and never fixed didn't appreciate seeing one class get so much attention update after update.
While I agree that Questing(as well as more help tools) would have helped immensley, it wasn't the only reason the game didn't catch on.
I do hope that a more competent developer comes along and implements some of the concepts that the old galaxies had (open skill system, free world to roam, player economy, crafting system) in another MMORPG.
The difference between SWG and SWTOR players are SWG players sucked it up and continued to support the game until the NGE, SWTOR players are mainly the same as the NGE crowd, shouting "give me , give me , me , me" and some are complaining in red to make themselves look more important.
Seriously, if you compare the design flaws of the Jedi implementation with the general flaws of SWTOR you should take your tinfoil hat off.
IMO, the REAL vocal minority is very often the fanatics / fanboys defending game X. The same people also often blame people with different minds to be haters. Or the vocal minority.
The vocal minority is much different than it was 8 years ago. Back then, most people didn't even know about official forums/message boards. I believe the percentage of players who read and post on the forums today is much much higher than back during the SWG Pre-CU era.
What's my point? It's that the vocal minority was just that back in 2003-2006 and now the forums provide a better indication of issues from all perspectives.
SWG was a world. SWTOR was a game. As a matter of fact, SWG was the last online "world". Even though I hadn't played it in years, I was sad to see it go. People always wonder why some vets get choked up about pre-NGE SWG. It is because it was more than a game to them.
Not everyone plays the game to be a hero. Lots of people wanted to be the "moisture farmer" or the weaponsmith. Some wanted to just be a cantina owner and organize social events or a mayor and plot out their own city. Quests weren't required for those people. All of the tools for content were right there. The problem was Sony just didn't realize it. They had their own special niche. There isn't a game that is out or that is about to come out that is even close other than Arche Age.
exactly.
But also, I think people who hated on the NGE launch (Me included) should have given it another look after they worked out the systems (a year after) I hated them and that game for what they did, but honestly after I came back and they had instances in, gear tapes, the token system for role players, the game was/still would be the best thing on the market.
The worst part is, people who never really gave ita chance after NGE had been cleaned up and improved missed out on everything I see them whining for in a new game.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
The vocal minority is much different than it was 8 years ago. Back then, most people didn't even know about official forums/message boards. I believe the percentage of players who read and post on the forums today is much much higher than back during the SWG Pre-CU era.
What's my point? It's that the vocal minority was just that back in 2003-2006 and now the forums provide a better indication of issues from all perspectives.
The reaction of the NGE reached New Your Times and other media 2005-06, calling that and the huge drop of subscribers a vocal minority were just ignorant and offended many people.
SWG was a world. SWTOR was a game. As a matter of fact, SWG was the last online "world". Even though I hadn't played it in years, I was sad to see it go. People always wonder why some vets get choked up about pre-NGE SWG. It is because it was more than a game to them.
Not everyone plays the game to be a hero. Lots of people wanted to be the "moisture farmer" or the weaponsmith. Some wanted to just be a cantina owner and organize social events or a mayor and plot out their own city. Quests weren't required for those people. All of the tools for content were right there. The problem was Sony just didn't realize it. They had their own special niche. There isn't a game that is out or that is about to come out that is even close other than Arche Age.
exactly.
But also, I think people who hated on the NGE launch (Me included) should have given it another look after they worked out the systems (a year after) I hated them and that game for what they did, but honestly after I came back and they had instances in, gear tapes, the token system for role players, the game was/still would be the best thing on the market.
The worst part is, people who never really gave ita chance after NGE had been cleaned up and improved missed out on everything I see them whining for in a new game.
I tried it when the new TC opened, did 8 Master Pilots and crafting. But I could not stand the combat or the Benny Hill movement. After 3 months I could not still stand the combat, and I quit.
Give me a fresh server, 250 skill points with the original 32+ professions and the old movements/animations with the NGE contents and I will play.
The difference? SWG never went F2P 8 months after release. As bad as SWG may have been, SWTOR with a multi million dollar budget could barely muster more than double the subs at this point. Only double the subs with that MASSIVE budget and released in the age of MMO's ....
That said, it isnt a bad game ... good story ... great co op ... horrible MMO though.
SWG was a world. SWTOR was a game. As a matter of fact, SWG was the last online "world". Even though I hadn't played it in years, I was sad to see it go. People always wonder why some vets get choked up about pre-NGE SWG. It is because it was more than a game to them.
Not everyone plays the game to be a hero. Lots of people wanted to be the "moisture farmer" or the weaponsmith. Some wanted to just be a cantina owner and organize social events or a mayor and plot out their own city. Quests weren't required for those people. All of the tools for content were right there. The problem was Sony just didn't realize it. They had their own special niche. There isn't a game that is out or that is about to come out that is even close other than Arche Age.
exactly.
But also, I think people who hated on the NGE launch (Me included) should have given it another look after they worked out the systems (a year after) I hated them and that game for what they did, but honestly after I came back and they had instances in, gear tapes, the token system for role players, the game was/still would be the best thing on the market.
The worst part is, people who never really gave ita chance after NGE had been cleaned up and improved missed out on everything I see them whining for in a new game.
I tried it when the new TC opened, did 8 Master Pilots and crafting. But I could not stand the combat or the Benny Hill movement. After 3 months I could not still stand the combat, and I quit.
Give me a fresh server, 250 skill points with the original 32+ professions and the old movements/animations with the NGE contents and I will play.
there is no question to the amount of agreement I have with you on the skills, but the fact remains, NGE before shut down was better then any game on the market today even missing that killer class combo system.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
SWG was a skillbased sandbox, SWTOR is a gearbased shoebox pretty much on a linear rail themepark (TOR's space is the worst ever). SWG had massive replayability value while SWTOR doesn't, once you hit 50 you're just going to run flashpoints and operations and pvp will get boring after a while with the same 4 warzones.
My guild of 350+ members all pretty much migrated back to SWG now (or are waiting for GW2 or playing TSW), everytime I logged into TOR, I was the only one logged in if not at least 2 others when a few months ago (March or April) there would be 50+ of us logged in.
Originally posted by WarriorNeeds If SWG was such an incredible game, it would not have closed down.
Think about what you just said, SWG shutting down wasn't the players' nor the game's fault, LA doesn't want 2 SW MMO games going at once. Also SWG was on its way down when SOE revamped the entire game from the ground up... TWICE. No devs should ever do that to a game once it becomes an official release, sure changes are subjective but why would you completely overhaul the UI, combat system, professions, etc. as if it's not even the same game- we went from SWG with a queue combat system and fluid character movement while running to a toolbar flashing cooldown combat with benny hill running with mostly broken animations and lots of blinding (and loud sounding) flashes on the screen.
Comments
I would take Raph Koster over any game designer out there to make a MMO right now.
Waiting on: The Repopulation
Thankfully, no company will. The MMO genre doesnt need a sandbox made by him. They need a sandbox made by someone that knows what he is doing and he proved with 3 MMOs that he rides other peoples skills and takes credit for it while pushing the most generic of ideas. That is how SWG got stuck with worlds with no 3d x/y axis and ground done with a random generator along with a great many other lazy programming mistakes.
Times have changed, his vision is what is needed. He can hire competent developers and programmers who can make the technical aspects better. Again, his vision is needed in this day in age of MMOs.
Waiting on: The Repopulation
No. Times have changed because of his ideas taking hold. Namely the idea that "game makers need to tell players what they want" idea of his...they even use his freaking forum tactics of shutting down people who speak out against the game...one of his keep points in several of his GDC speeches was controlling the forums as well as ignoring what he called the vocal minority.
It was Koster that pushed the genre into ignoring the players. Hell, before his big mouth we had actual CLOSED beta testing where the company WORKED WITH THE TESTERS and listened to feedback.
We dont need Koster, we need FRESH NEW IDEAS...he didnt make the first sandbox, he didnt make the last sandbox...and he sure as hell should make another MMO. This genre is so messed up that no company has wanted to touch him for 7 years yet for some reasons till invite him to come speak at the GDCs as if he has good ideas...jebus. We wont hire you because you suck...but we love the sound of your voice!
I’m not here to defend Mr Koster, but the complainers of the NGE were official named “the vocal minority” at the SOE forums and with hindsight we have to agree that such statements were ill founded and plainly wrong.
Just because others chose to (miss) use his wordings in the wrong context you should not blame Koster for that. The real vocal minority then at the time for the NGE, are much the same kind of people that flamed people having any criticism of SWTOR. And look what we got…..
I think Mr Koster has proved himself right, don’t listen to the vocal minority.
Incorrect sir. He made the statement during SWG beta to try to shut down those complaining about the random generated ground with ditches every 10 feet, being able to shoot through the ground/walls, not being able to jump...he said developers should ignore the vocal minority so they dont lose focus on what the majority of players want and deviate to work on things few people care about.
That was a few weeks before he said one of the most insulting things I ever heard from a game maker...that the reason SWG is only allowing 1 character per player was due to the amount of ****ing polygons being far more than any other game before it. In fact, the faces of characters alone is more than complete characters in other MMOs...
The man was so full of himself it was sickening.
The real problem is that the past few years game dev's make games they think people will love to watch,10 years ago they made games people actually loved to play.
I'm sure you are correct, I don't know about that episode. But that does not invalidate my points about how the term was used by SOE at the time for the NGE. That was an official statement!
IMO, the REAL vocal minority is very often the fanatics / fanboys defending game X. The same people also often blame people with different minds to be haters. Or the vocal minority.
If SWG was such an incredible game, it would not have closed down.
I remember playing it the last year it was up. Aside from the one populated EU server (Starsider?) with only populated max level characters, the game was absolutely dead. I tried rolling a new toon just for the sake of doing it all again and I could not find anyone to group with. Sure, there were player-built cities, but they were ghost towns.
Added to that the bugs, lack of animations, clunky UI and interface and you had basically EQ in space. I liked it because it was SW. But it was never a great game.
OP..... Its very clear you never played SWG the right way. There was "raids" There was plenty to do in the game. Jedi didnt kill SWG. Little ****s like you did by saying it needed more WoW in it. It had some bugs ect but over all it was hands down the best MMO ever made.
Dont forget OP SWG became WoW then it died quickly. So i guess your wrong.
bars+girls+no condoms= babies
Awsome!
bars+girls+no condoms= babies
your wrong poo face
www.swgemu.com
bars+girls+no condoms= babies
We know its dead; we are talking about it as something that has occurred in the past.
Obviously you don’t, since you are here complaining.
I agree 110%
Yeh I was going to say
SWG was profitable and SWTOR will be lucky if it breaks even covering all its costs including marketing expenses.
The vocal minority is much different than it was 8 years ago. Back then, most people didn't even know about official forums/message boards. I believe the percentage of players who read and post on the forums today is much much higher than back during the SWG Pre-CU era.
What's my point? It's that the vocal minority was just that back in 2003-2006 and now the forums provide a better indication of issues from all perspectives.
Waiting on: The Repopulation
exactly.
But also, I think people who hated on the NGE launch (Me included) should have given it another look after they worked out the systems (a year after) I hated them and that game for what they did, but honestly after I came back and they had instances in, gear tapes, the token system for role players, the game was/still would be the best thing on the market.
The worst part is, people who never really gave ita chance after NGE had been cleaned up and improved missed out on everything I see them whining for in a new game.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
The reaction of the NGE reached New Your Times and other media 2005-06, calling that and the huge drop of subscribers a vocal minority were just ignorant and offended many people.
I tried it when the new TC opened, did 8 Master Pilots and crafting. But I could not stand the combat or the Benny Hill movement. After 3 months I could not still stand the combat, and I quit.
Give me a fresh server, 250 skill points with the original 32+ professions and the old movements/animations with the NGE contents and I will play.
The difference? SWG never went F2P 8 months after release. As bad as SWG may have been, SWTOR with a multi million dollar budget could barely muster more than double the subs at this point. Only double the subs with that MASSIVE budget and released in the age of MMO's ....
That said, it isnt a bad game ... good story ... great co op ... horrible MMO though.
there is no question to the amount of agreement I have with you on the skills, but the fact remains, NGE before shut down was better then any game on the market today even missing that killer class combo system.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
SWG was a skillbased sandbox, SWTOR is a gearbased shoebox pretty much on a linear rail themepark (TOR's space is the worst ever). SWG had massive replayability value while SWTOR doesn't, once you hit 50 you're just going to run flashpoints and operations and pvp will get boring after a while with the same 4 warzones.
My guild of 350+ members all pretty much migrated back to SWG now (or are waiting for GW2 or playing TSW), everytime I logged into TOR, I was the only one logged in if not at least 2 others when a few months ago (March or April) there would be 50+ of us logged in.