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Are they fixing the reason people left in the first place?

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  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 fresno, CAPosts: 1,431Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rwyan

    I don't know why people give SWtOR such a hard time.  Its not a bad game (sure there were some missteps made by Bioware).  For the most part, the game is solid.  I enjoyed my stay there very much... I just got bored, hence why I left.  This is going to happen when you're relying purely on scripted stories.

     

    I recently jumped into to Rift and for me, its like night and day.  The game has opened up so much in regards of things to do.  Its become much more than a linear quest-grinder with a raiding end-game (which is what SWtOR is).  SWtOR needs more opportunities for emergent play (sandboxy experiences) and thats it really.  Allow players to continue the "story" outside the "scripted story".  Raids, instances, battlegrounds will only hold a player's interest for so long. 

     

    Ironically, I do believe if SWG and SWtOR had a baby... you'd have an awesome game.

    I wish a game would try this concept. A storyline to play through and quest around, but also have a lot of sandbox options. But I don't see it ever happening in my lifetime.

     

    Sorry, carry on with the bashing. Just wanted to point out this post and say I agree.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by Jounar
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by MidBoss

    No, what is likely going on here is people wrote "This game is not worth a monthly payment".


     

    Along the same argument you used just paragraph above: Those did no have to buy the game in the first place?

     

    Yes, SWTOR's failure is really all the customers fault image

    This has CONSISTENTLY been BioWare's message back to the customers/subscribers. We (the subscribers/customers) bitched about how they seemed to release patches with no QA or testing. Their response was that there didn't seem to be a lot of people testing on the PTR. To which WE pointed out there wasn't, never had been, and seemingly never would be a way to copy our characters over from live to PTR to test with. They LITERALLY were baffled why we wanted this. They thought we'd actually enjoy their game SO much, we'd separately level characters on their test server.

    To me, the REAL warning bells started ringing when it became VERY, VERY apparent a LOT of the devs didn't even play the game. I don't remember WHO it was, but ONE of their leads developers was mentioning a /roll system at the guild summit thing they had about a month after release. He thought it was ALREADY in the game and was shocked to be told it wasn't. Another example was Georg Zoeller (may he die of virulent ass cancer) posting a comment about the community outrage to changing healing kits to one use per combat. I'm paraphrasing, but his response was "what kind of huttball matches are you guys playing where you never leave combat? The ball resets within 2 seconds after scoring?".

     

    That post alone was CLEAR indication he had never actually played a huttball match.

  • nightsoftnightsoft Wrentham, MAPosts: 15Member
    Originally posted by cahenderson
    Originally posted by Jounar
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by MidBoss

    No, what is likely going on here is people wrote "This game is not worth a monthly payment".


     

    Along the same argument you used just paragraph above: Those did no have to buy the game in the first place?

     

    Yes, SWTOR's failure is really all the customers fault image

    This has CONSISTENTLY been BioWare's message back to the customers/subscribers. We (the subscribers/customers) bitched about how they seemed to release patches with no QA or testing. Their response was that there didn't seem to be a lot of people testing on the PTR. To which WE pointed out there wasn't, never had been, and seemingly never would be a way to copy our characters over from live to PTR to test with. They LITERALLY were baffled why we wanted this. They thought we'd actually enjoy their game SO much, we'd separately level characters on their test server.

    To me, the REAL warning bells started ringing when it became VERY, VERY apparent a LOT of the devs didn't even play the game. I don't remember WHO it was, but ONE of their leads developers was mentioning a /roll system at the guild summit thing they had about a month after release. He thought it was ALREADY in the game and was shocked to be told it wasn't. Another example was Georg Zoeller (may he die of virulent ass cancer) posting a comment about the community outrage to changing healing kits to one use per combat. I'm paraphrasing, but his response was "what kind of huttball matches are you guys playing where you never leave combat? The ball resets within 2 seconds after scoring?".

     

    That post alone was CLEAR indication he had never actually played a huttball match.


    Good point. Scuttlebut is that most of the staff did not enjoy playing the game, and asked for/complained about the same things the community did before launch and were ignored. Some supposedly offered to work on features in their spare time.

    Whether or not any of this is true is speculative, but if it is it lays blame on a few narrow shoulders. In my opinion the single developer that did the most damage to the game was DE. IMO he had the most pull on the games development and was the cheerleader for the lions share of mistakes made with the game.

    I believe the game would have been VERY different without DE on staff.

  • DarthconnorDarthconnor Saint James, MOPosts: 61Member Uncommon

    I think my main thing with this game is they seemed to get a great idea then they kinda half a$$ed their way through it. Like they have great planets with awesome details but then they don't add night day cycles or bugs flying little reptiles maybe the a npc walking down a path acting scared every once in awhile. The crafting they did was a great idea but again it was like great idea stopped short when it actually went into game. They could have really made it an great new system but they added so many things that made it worthless and really kinda made alot of it pointless. I could carry on if I really sat and thought about it but really its not that most of it is bad its more that they seemed to stop short of making it great so playing just brings you disappointment that they didnt carry through on their ideas.

    Dunno maybe just me....

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by DeaconX

    I would say no – and there’s no fixing why people didn't stay with SWTOR because it stems to the initial design of the game.

    I myself and about 20 people I know left didn't leave because SWTOR isn’t a decent Star Wars game… it’s because it’s not the Star Wars MMORPG we were looking for.  It is as BioWare put it, KOTOR 3-9.

    A fundamental design flaw, in my opinion, was when they failed to realize that Star Wars fans don’t just want to play another (mostly) single player Star Wars adventure, they want to LIVE in the Star Wars setting.  People are so enamored with this IP they want to be a part of it.  If you can manage to blend the strong story content BioWare is known for, with enough player freedom to allow everyone to really define their own characters and roles in the galaxy, you’d have a huge winner.  Theme Park + Sandbox hybrid.

    Good post.  /agree

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • skamperskamper Houston, TXPosts: 252Member

    I see in a lot of threads people claim that this is merely just a great single player game with little mmo interaction. I don't even really see it as a good single player game. The story is pretty lackluster. 80% of the quests require you to kill the same group of droids. Compared to other BioWare games this would be pretty shallow as just a single player game (KOTOR, ME, DAO, etc).

     


    Themepark / Sandbox hybrid is going to be the future of MMOs. You have to give players power to create controversy and rivalries within their server.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by DeaconX I would say no – and there’s no fixing why people didn't stay with SWTOR because it stems to the initial design of the game. I myself and about 20 people I know left didn't leave because SWTOR isn’t a decent Star Wars game… it’s because it’s not the Star Wars MMORPG we were looking for.  It is as BioWare put it, KOTOR 3-9. A fundamental design flaw, in my opinion, was when they failed to realize that Star Wars fans don’t just want to play another (mostly) single player Star Wars adventure, they want to LIVE in the Star Wars setting.  People are so enamored with this IP they want to be a part of it.  If you can manage to blend the strong story content BioWare is known for, with enough player freedom to allow everyone to really define their own characters and roles in the galaxy, you’d have a huge winner.  Theme Park + Sandbox hybrid.
    Good post.  /agree


    No, I don't think so. Just in general there are fewer people who want to live in a virtual world than play a game set in a virtual world. Why would Star Wars fans be any different?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by ignore_me

    Originally posted by DeaconX I would say no – and there’s no fixing why people didn't stay with SWTOR because it stems to the initial design of the game. I myself and about 20 people I know left didn't leave because SWTOR isn’t a decent Star Wars game… it’s because it’s not the Star Wars MMORPG we were looking for.  It is as BioWare put it, KOTOR 3-9. A fundamental design flaw, in my opinion, was when they failed to realize that Star Wars fans don’t just want to play another (mostly) single player Star Wars adventure, they want to LIVE in the Star Wars setting.  People are so enamored with this IP they want to be a part of it.  If you can manage to blend the strong story content BioWare is known for, with enough player freedom to allow everyone to really define their own characters and roles in the galaxy, you’d have a huge winner.  Theme Park + Sandbox hybrid.
    Good post.  /agree

    No, I don't think so. Just in general there are fewer people who want to live in a virtual world than play a game set in a virtual world. Why would Star Wars fans be any different?

     

    I appreceiate that, but what then explains the serial lack of enjoyment at endgame for games of this paradigm that are not WoW? And also Star Wars fans dress up like the characters at those conventions, there is a religion in the UK based on SW force mythology. Sure these are fringe people but the pop culture saturation of this IP for those who experienced it as a child is tremendous.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • AdamaiAdamai derbyPosts: 469Member
    I left because its an injustice to swg the game is just crap over over hyped and you can play much better low budget games for free and with better story content and genrally better content
  • DamonDamon Naples, FLPosts: 165Member
    I agree.  The subscription has nothing to do with why I left the game.  It was boring after 50.  To be honest, it was boring 40-50, but at 50 I realized how little there was for me to do in the game.

    image
  • Oph8Oph8 whydoyouneedtoknow, CAPosts: 177Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Umm.. the number 1 reason people left is because of the '$15 sub fee'.

    That's a fact and not 'I don't like XYZ so everyone must hate XYZ!' opinion.

    So yeah, EA/BW is fixing the number 1 reason people left SWTOR.

    The main reason why people left is because of the lack of in game tools and the shear mechcanics were a direct copy of Blizzard/Activisions flagship product. The $15 fee is peanuts and if you have trouble paying that you shouldn't be playing a sub MMO.

    Read the SWTOR forums much? people are still complaining over tools and content that aren't in the game.

    So No, EA/BW is not fixing the number 1 reason people left SWTOR.

     

    and going F2P won't bring'em back - GW2 will be the final nail in the coffin.

     

     

     

    "Everything is mine and your woman too"

  • KakkzookaKakkzooka Waterbury, CTPosts: 591Member

    If the price was the main factor in why SWTOR failed, then we would also see World of Warcraft as vacant as LucasArt's game. But we don't see that because WoW, while it has outdated mechanics, is a solidly built, well-thought out and executed game. And currently it has 9 + million players occupying the gamespace.

    SWTOR was not a solidly built, well-thought out and executed game. That is why people left it in droves. That is why it failed. In order to "fix" the game, they would need to start over with a new engine, because the one they bought and modified is horrid for an MMORPG. These are the reasons SWTOR failed.

    Re: SWTOR

    "Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"

  • WarriorNeedsWarriorNeeds Kansas City, KSPosts: 34Member
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka

    If the price was the main factor in why SWTOR failed, then we would also see World of Warcraft as vacant as LucasArt's game. But we don't see that because WoW, while it has outdated mechanics, is a solidly built, well-thought out and executed game. And currently it has 9 + million players occupying the gamespace.

    SWTOR was not a solidly built, well-thought out and executed game. That is why people left it in droves. That is why it failed. In order to "fix" the game, they would need to start over with a new engine, because the one they bought and modified is horrid for an MMORPG. These are the reasons SWTOR failed.

    This is going with the VERY BIG assumption that the reason WoW has the numbers it has is SOLELY on the game mechanics.  Yet, time and time again people (myself included) have attributed it is more of a social/cultural phenomenum more than anything else.  People continue to play WOW because their friends do. 

    Do you not agree with this or simply believe that WoW in itself vastly superior in design and quality to EVERY mmo that has launched before and after it (this includes every MMO...Eve, EQ, UO etc...)?  Because by that logic,  they are.  Hell, by that logic EVE must be one of the worst games out since it only has 200-500k subs and hasnt ever topped that.  Even worse, UO must have been one of the worst MMOs ever made.

    Edit: On topic, I don't know what they are currently working on, but I do believe that minus the sub cost the game will see an influx of players.  How many exactly?  I don't know.  But most games prior that went F2P (DDO, LOTRO, APB:R) have and are doing quite well.  Actually, LOTRO is doing better than it was as a P2P model.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,867Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by KakkzookaIf the price was the main factor in why SWTOR failed, then we would also see World of Warcraft as vacant as LucasArt's game.

    Because WoW use certain pricing, it must fit SWTOR too?


    What kind of funny logic is that?

  • KakkzookaKakkzooka Waterbury, CTPosts: 591Member
    Originally posted by WarriorNeeds
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka

    If the price was the main factor in why SWTOR failed, then we would also see World of Warcraft as vacant as LucasArt's game. But we don't see that because WoW, while it has outdated mechanics, is a solidly built, well-thought out and executed game. And currently it has 9 + million players occupying the gamespace.

    SWTOR was not a solidly built, well-thought out and executed game. That is why people left it in droves. That is why it failed. In order to "fix" the game, they would need to start over with a new engine, because the one they bought and modified is horrid for an MMORPG. These are the reasons SWTOR failed.

    This is going with the VERY BIG assumption that the reason WoW has the numbers it has is SOLELY on the game mechanics.  Yet, time and time again people (myself included) have attributed it is more of a social/cultural phenomenum more than anything else.  People continue to play WOW because their friends do. 

    Do you not agree with this or simply believe that WoW in itself vastly superior in design and quality to EVERY mmo that has launched before and after it (this includes every MMO...Eve, etc...)?  Otherwise, they are, by your logic than inferior.

     


    Blizzard has artfully assimilated every concept that works well in other MMORPGs. We can even see that with Mist of Panderia, Blizzard is copying ideas from Pokemon and Guild Wars 2. So, while you're making the argument that WoW isn't superior in design or quality to EVERY MMO, the numbers point to the contrary. WoW currently is the most popular MMOrpg because it is a well made system that continues to iterate with its own ideas and the good/working ideas from other games.

    That's also a double-edged sword, mind you. WoW also invented the "Dungeon Finder," a device which essentially cannibalized a core pillar of the MMORPG, exploration and socialization.

    If people are playing the game, because "their friends" are, then those same people will be led like sheep to the next MMO that comes out that is better than WoW. So far, no other company has matched Blizzard's quality or content. Sure, other companies have copied components that Blizzard created and/or copied from other MMOs, but - so far - Blizzard has been most successful at doing so.

    SWTOR failed because people don't enjoy playing the game. It is lacking in atmosphere, it is lacking in the ability to have large number of players in the same area (a key requisite in order to call your game "Massively Multiplayer"), it is lacking in novel design features, it is lacking in having much to do with "Star Wars," as its design seems to want to mirror WoW moreso than the Star Wars universe.

    Re: SWTOR

    "Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"

  • WarriorNeedsWarriorNeeds Kansas City, KSPosts: 34Member
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka
    So, while you're making the argument that WoW isn't superior in design or quality to EVERY MMO, the numbers point to the contrary.
     

    That's all I need to read.  No point in trying to have a discussion about this if you simply attribute box sales/sub sales to product quality.

     

  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon

    The number one reason people left is cause the game is shit.

    The number one reason why lots haven't tried it is either because they don't like MMOs, haven't heard of it or don't want to pay a subscription or an upfront cost.

     

     

  • minime2minime2 cardiffPosts: 113Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Umm.. the number 1 reason people left is because of the '$15 sub fee'.

    That's a fact and not 'I don't like XYZ so everyone must hate XYZ!' opinion.

    So yeah, EA/BW is fixing the number 1 reason people left SWTOR.

    Rubbish we left because the game is bantha poodoo so many faults i cant be bothered to list them . But sub was definately not one of them .

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Umm.. the number 1 reason people left is because of the '$15 sub fee'.

    That's a fact and not 'I don't like XYZ so everyone must hate XYZ!' opinion.

    So yeah, EA/BW is fixing the number 1 reason people left SWTOR.

    As much as I dont like subscriptions the $15 sub  fee is hardly the reason people left.  I cant attest to why most left but if I was to hazzard a guess it would be to a lack of content.

     

    I left because the game was bland, boring, uninspiring and was lacking features that even most F2P MMO's release with.  Plus it takes Bioware like 6 months to even implement and develop content.  The lack of content to to do at endgame was just icing on the cake.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • KakkzookaKakkzooka Waterbury, CTPosts: 591Member
    Originally posted by WarriorNeeds
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka
    So, while you're making the argument that WoW isn't superior in design or quality to EVERY MMO, the numbers point to the contrary.
     

    That's all I need to read.  No point in trying to have a discussion about this if you simply attribute box sales/sub sales to product quality.

     

    Very well. No point in trying to have a disussion about this if you simply attribute quality to the inverse of what normally denotes a succesful product or endeavor (e.g. "popularity".)

     

    Where's my hipster cat JPEG? ;)

    Re: SWTOR

    "Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"

  • BeyornBeyorn Canton, GAPosts: 249Member Uncommon

    I guess Im in the minority but I loved it until I hit 50 and finished my class quest.  I was so let down when I finished my class quest, it basically felt like "Thanks for playing/paying".  Then I started doing the gear grind thing (since it is hard for me to group and I hate raids) and I quickly lost interest after that.

    I may mess with it a little once it goes free to play but they are not getting anymore of my money.

  • KakkzookaKakkzooka Waterbury, CTPosts: 591Member
    Originally posted by Beyorn

    I guess Im in the minority but I loved it until I hit 50 and finished my class quest.  I was so let down when I finished my class quest, it basically felt like "Thanks for playing/paying".  Then I started doing the gear grind thing (since it is hard for me to group and I hate raids) and I quickly lost interest after that.

    I may mess with it a little once it goes free to play but they are not getting anymore of my money.


    "Time is money, friend."

    Why would play something that will continue to be bad despite the change in price? That's like saying, "That five dollar bottle of arsenic isn't going to trick me into drinking it until it hits $3.50!"

    Re: SWTOR

    "Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,867Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Kakkzooka
    Very well. No point in trying to have a disussion about this if you simply attribute quality to the inverse of what normally denotes a succesful product or endeavor (e.g. "popularity".) Where's my hipster cat JPEG? ;)

    You are mixing up quality and profit(product success).

    A product of higher "quality" - ie. better materials, workings, mechanical design, low claim rate, better product and customer support, distribution, etc... can easily be beaten in profit by product of lower quality.

    Higher quality products do not necessarily make more money or sell better.

  • BeyornBeyorn Canton, GAPosts: 249Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka
    Originally posted by Beyorn

    I guess Im in the minority but I loved it until I hit 50 and finished my class quest.  I was so let down when I finished my class quest, it basically felt like "Thanks for playing/paying".  Then I started doing the gear grind thing (since it is hard for me to group and I hate raids) and I quickly lost interest after that.

    I may mess with it a little once it goes free to play but they are not getting anymore of my money.


    "Time is money, friend."

    Why would play something that will continue to be bad despite the change in price? That's like saying, "That five dollar bottle of arsenic isn't going to trick me into drinking it until it hits $3.50!"


    I like some of the other classes stories the little I played them.  All my other character are below 40.  Also it is the only star wars game out right now.  I love me some blasters and lightsabers ;D.  Pew, Pew, Pew!

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kakkzooka
    Originally posted by Beyorn

    I guess Im in the minority but I loved it until I hit 50 and finished my class quest.  I was so let down when I finished my class quest, it basically felt like "Thanks for playing/paying".  Then I started doing the gear grind thing (since it is hard for me to group and I hate raids) and I quickly lost interest after that.

    I may mess with it a little once it goes free to play but they are not getting anymore of my money.


    "Time is money, friend."

    Why would play something that will continue to be bad despite the change in price? That's like saying, "That five dollar bottle of arsenic isn't going to trick me into drinking it until it hits $3.50!"

    Ah yes, playing SWTOR is as bad as drinking arsenic.. come on, let's be serious.

    I prefer dominos pizza and never buy from pizza hut because I don't think it's worth it... but if my friend ordered a pizza hut and offered to buy me one for free I wouldn't be turning it down.

    I left SWTOR because I didn't think it was worth a sub. If that sub wasn't there I would have kept playing it, as I suspect most would have. Maybe I wouldn't play it all the time but it'd be on my drive for dipping into every now and then.

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