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need criticism about this skill system......

xaritscinxaritscin CaliMember Posts: 350 Uncommon

notes: edited in order to give a better explanation of the system.

as a future developer i want to start craving in the concepts needed to create an MMO, or at least a singleplayer RPG, this in order to complement my formation in the college, and for my personal project. unfortunately i started in MMOs very late, so i only know a few of them, mostly themeparks, except for EVE.

the objective:

-create a dinamic skill based gameplay for this virtual world

-it has to be easy to understand for the new player

-must cover all the skills for all the roles in the game

-it haves to give a freedom of choice

organization:

imagine a system similar to the talent system for WoW, (the original system), but instead of separated fields, all skills are grouped in a single big "tech tree", the tree starts with a set of basic skill i call the "survival skills" this means skills like:

- combat:

from this branch come all the forms of combat, it branches in 6 branches (melee, magical, ranged, mounted and tactical) which also branch in more specific groups.

-social:

from this branch come all social skills, it branches in things like diplomacy, social relations, politics, party management. guild/corp/clan management, etc..

-manipulation and research:

from this branch come all the skills which focus in the players interaction with the environment, this branches 3 second groups: gathering, crafting and object interaction(this one includes pushing buttons, opening gates, puzzles, mounting and other actions which requires other entities). 

-environment and orientation:

from this branch come all the skill which focus in the player's position, this meas things like Carthography(player's position in the world), geology (for finding mineral veins), geography, weather, political limits, etc..

obtaining the skills:

there will be several ways to obtain the skills:

1. from an NPC teacher

2. from another player using a teach skill (social branch)

3. doing a quest chain

4. from objects like runes, books, scrolls, etc..

5. obtained from bosses

6. unlocking them from the tech tree

progression:

like in EVE, skills will have a leveling curve, both passive and active skills will gain experience from the players interactions. for example:

"each time a player gets hit by a monster, it gets 50 exp for the tanking skill and the armor manipulation skill, each time he deals damage with its sword it gains 50 exp for the combat skill it used and for the sword manipulation skill, each time the player discover a new area in the world map it gets 50 exp in carthography, each time it uses its pickaxe in an ore vein it gains 50 exp in ore gathering, each time it smelts the ore it gets 50 exp in ore smelting..................."

each skill haves a top of 100 levels, the bonus will depend in every skill. also in order to unlock certain skills or branches will require to have certain levels in certain group of skills.

how much exp is going to be obtained is still something to decide.

interactions with the player:

players will be able to save skill configurations as like some sort of academic pensum (like a career document) which can be given to other characters in order to teach them what skills they need for reaching certain roles. for example:

"X player saves a skill config for a Dark Knight (a tanking role which uses dark magics as support), he wants to give it to another player who wants to learn how to be one, then he uses the teach skill to share him the config, in the Skills interface the player will see a tab for skill configs, the Dark Knight config is in the list, he can use a button which enables disables the highlighting of the skill config in the tech tree."

but this doesnt lock the player, no matter if he haves several configs highlighted, he can go and learn any skill, with any of the ways to obtain them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

notes: this still is just the basic sketch of the system, it will be subject to changes.

 

 

 

Comments

  • rdrakkenrdrakken Gotham, FLMember Posts: 426
    Originally posted by xaritscin
    (excepto for some special bouns ones which can be obtained doing epic quests, or from rare books dropped from certain bosses.) the idea is to give freedom and accesibility to all players, i dont want to lock them in classes. 

     First part of the quote goes dead set against the second part of the quote.

    If skills are only available via Epic quests and or bosses than you are basically creating a game that caters to the hardcore and leaves out everyone else...eventually making hardcores way OP just via skills let alone gear.

    Class freedom means allowing anyone to train anything, making all skills available from the start. Limit via skill points to spend on whatever skills the players like. To this day, Asherons Call has done this best.

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarMember Posts: 2,672 Uncommon

    Ill have to say "need more information" Ill read it a few more times and see if it pops in my head.

    EDit :

    There has tobe some sort of lock. 

    For example, Shield skills are worthless on Gallente ships.  Yeah you can have awesome shield.  But its not going ot help you.  Same with rone skills on ships with no drones.  Its essentially locked out if youre in a ship that doesnt make use of it. 

    Also as rdrakken said, your first part contradicts the 2nd part.  Locked until you do quests  and skills available from the beginning is complete opposites.

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  • mbrodiembrodie MelbourneMember Posts: 1,286 Uncommon
    i cant help but think... "the secret world" just my opinion
  • xaritscinxaritscin CaliMember Posts: 350 Uncommon
    Originally posted by rdrakken
    Originally posted by xaritscin
    (excepto for some special bouns ones which can be obtained doing epic quests, or from rare books dropped from certain bosses.) the idea is to give freedom and accesibility to all players, i dont want to lock them in classes. 

     First part of the quote goes dead set against the second part of the quote.

    If skills are only available via Epic quests and or bosses than you are basically creating a game that caters to the hardcore and leaves out everyone else...eventually making hardcores way OP just via skills let alone gear.

    Class freedom means allowing anyone to train anything, making all skills available from the start. Limit via skill points to spend on whatever skills the players like. To this day, Asherons Call has done this best.

    but i didnt said all skills were gonna be obtained that way, well i have yet to research how are players gonna learn some of them, the idea is not give an static learning, all skills will be avaliable for players, but the idea is to encourage them to get them, not just give them the rare skills in a silver plate. of course i havent figured it for PvP and PvE, im just doing the canon for the skill system.

     

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarMember Posts: 2,672 Uncommon

    We would need a lot more info to have an accurate assesment on your skill system.  How are they gotten?  Are they like skill books you find?  Learned by doing certain things?  Whats the gameplay like?  What do the skills affect?  etc etc.

     

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  • xaritscinxaritscin CaliMember Posts: 350 Uncommon
    Originally posted by mbrodie
    i cant help but think... "the secret world" just my opinion

    i was thinking in that too, but haven't played it, but have seen good reviews of it.

    my idea is to have an skil system with this features:

    1. all skills can be learned and trained

    2. skill learning is an active process, players will have to use them in order to get exp for leveling them

    3. the way players obtain them is different in some of them, they can obtain them from items (like books and scrolls), after completing a questchain, unlocking them from the Tech Tree, obtained from an NPC teacher, or even getting trained by another player.

    4. skills are organized by a tech tree, with many branches.

    some notes:

    -i havent figured the issues with the gameplay, i mean, PvP and PvE

    -the exp curve for them

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCMember Posts: 1,059

    Should a player be able to learn every skill? In my opinion it depends on how you use that feature to create game play.

     

    So much about a skill system depends on what you really do with character abilities during play. The Secret World, for example, reads as having a skill system “akin” to your own ideas. Since everyone learns at their own pace and can learn every skill many of the boss battles became like a puzzle where you have to pick the right skills to use to beat them. You see, the skill system created game play or can be looked at as an extension of it.

     

    In your example, it reads like their are a variety of roles present in game play that one can fill. Even in EVE people have to pick what skills to develop in order to fill a role and study those first and foremost for a very long period of time before branching out and becoming more versatile. Walking in as a new player it’s like picking a class with the option to change later. I started out as an explorer and turned into a PVP EWAR pilot too as time passed.

     

    Other games get around this issue by having multiple specializations and granting the option to change between them. For example, I could switch between tanking and healing as a paladin when playing WOW back in the day or between DPS and healing as a commando in SWTOR depending on current needs. What good is being able to do everything in your game?

     

    You might need to ask yourself how your system creates fun game play rather than simply not wanting to limit or define someone (ie even checkers has rules.) If it’s all about picking your roles (like infantry man) classes with multiple spec options later might work better.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOMember Posts: 1,419 Uncommon

    I know this is going to sound rude, but developers spend years, and write documents that are hundreds and often thousands of pages long to hammer out skill trees. One paragraph napkin sketches are't really going to give anyone enough of an idea of what you are really after.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • drakaenadrakaena Member Posts: 506 Uncommon
    In my experience when players are given the freedom to mix and match all skills it becomes impossible to balance. You're setting yourself up for FOtM builds. Freedom sounds good in theory but in practice it ends up limiting players to either min/max their character or get steam rolled. I think you're better off defining each class. JMHO
  • BadLuckBrettBadLuckBrett Boston, MAMember Posts: 22
    Originally posted by mbrodie
    i cant help but think... "the secret world" just my opinion


    was my first thought also, after reading it over maybe SWG pre-nge?

  • xaritscinxaritscin CaliMember Posts: 350 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
    Should a player be able to learn every skill? In my opinion it depends on how you use that feature to create game play.   So much about a skill system depends on what you really do with character abilities during play. The Secret World, for example, reads as having a skill system “akin” to your own ideas. Since everyone learns at their own pace and can learn every skill many of the boss battles became like a puzzle where you have to pick the right skills to use to beat them. You see, the skill system created game play or can be looked at as an extension of it.   In your example, it reads like their are a variety of roles present in game play that one can fill. Even in EVE people have to pick what skills to develop in order to fill a role and study those first and foremost for a very long period of time before branching out and becoming more versatile. Walking in as a new player it’s like picking a class with the option to change later. I started out as an explorer and turned into a PVP EWAR pilot too as time passed.   Other games get around this issue by having multiple specializations and granting the option to change between them. For example, I could switch between tanking and healing as a paladin when playing WOW back in the day or between DPS and healing as a commando in SWTOR depending on current needs. What good is being able to do everything in your game?   You might need to ask yourself how your system creates fun game play rather than simply not wanting to limit or define someone (ie even checkers has rules.) If it’s all about picking your roles (like infantry man) classes with multiple spec options later might work better.

    that's exactly the point i want to reach, i want to create an skill system where i can learn what i want, following an specific role or invent my own skill deck.

    that's what i  want to achieve. if i want to be a longshooter, i'll have to traing in riflles and shooting skills, if i want to be a paladin i'll have to train in plate armor and holy magics. if i want to be a necromancer i'll go for the necromancy skills and the clothing, or even not going for it, i could go Death Knight and use plate instead.

    beast master? of course i'll go into domestication and melee combat. and that's talking about some combat roles

    i want to be a miner?, there's gonna be a whole research about it, like geology, carthography and demolitions. i want to explore caves so i have to learn spelunking in order to detect the ore veins.

    farming?, it exist, i have to learn domestication if i want to breed cattle, i'll have to know some skills in bothanics and agriculture.

    of course players will start with a set of basic survival skills 

  • xaritscinxaritscin CaliMember Posts: 350 Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadLuckBrett
    Originally posted by mbrodie
    i cant help but think... "the secret world" just my opinion


    was my first thought also, after reading it over maybe SWG pre-nge?

    i never played SWG, i was started in MMOs very late =/

  • TrionicusTrionicus Palm Beach, FLMember Posts: 493 Uncommon
    Originally posted by azmundai
    I know this is going to sound rude, but developers spend years, and write documents that are hundreds and often thousands of pages long to hammer out skill trees. One paragraph napkin sketches are't really going to give anyone enough of an idea of what you are really after.

    You're right, that does sound rude. The part about the napkin is hilarious though.

     

    I agree as well, lets get some more information.

  • xaritscinxaritscin CaliMember Posts: 350 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Trionicus
    Originally posted by azmundai
    I know this is going to sound rude, but developers spend years, and write documents that are hundreds and often thousands of pages long to hammer out skill trees. One paragraph napkin sketches are't really going to give anyone enough of an idea of what you are really after.

    You're right, that does sound rude. The part about the napkin is hilarious though.

     

    I agree as well, lets get some more information.

    i'll post it eventually......i started the topic very late in the night......

  • xaritscinxaritscin CaliMember Posts: 350 Uncommon
    edited the OP with a more clear explanation
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