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Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by ste2000
You don't follow much the MMO industry.
EQ2 had 200K at its peak 4 years ago, since then its population declined drammatically, same for LOTRO, DDO ( which was technically dead), AoC and so on.
Every "Western" MMO that went F2P had less than 100K players when they switched to RMT transaction.
But you do not need to trust me saying that only "dead" MMO goes F2P in the western market (I am not talking about the Asians which are built on F2P model and they are successful indeed)
Look at Funcom.
AoC is F2P, so they have the technology, yet TSW is subscription based (for now, though I predict it will go F2P in 6 months time...................because it will lose subs)
If Funcom thought the F2P model was the winning formula they would have launched TSW as a F2P, but they didn't, because the Subscription model is still the more profitable if you can have a steady player base at least between 300K and 500K subs.
Problem with Western MMOs is that the majority of them, don't have more than 200K subs after few months from their release because they are so shallow that player simply refuses to pay a monthly fee for a WoW clone or even worse for an Online Game (Single Player game with MMO features)
F2P games could be very profitable, if they were built on the Pay To Win model like all the Asian MMOs.
But Western MMOs goes F2P because they aren't good enough and they fail to have a decent subscription base.
This is sad but it's the truth.
Apparently I follow the industry more than you do. EQ2 has had a stable population of about 120-160k population for 3-4 years, same with CoH, Lotro had about 250k. I never mentioned anything about AoC and DDO because they were effectively dead.
No, the three that I mentioned had were doing quite well, stable and generating a profit.
I don't, I've played them too much, and seen too much data saying otherwise.
Pretty confident that TSW has between 300 and 700k subscriptions right now. Whether that is enough for them to generate more profit than with f2p depends entirely on their marketing strategy and the amount they spent on the game. TSW may very well go F2P within 6 months, and it will be because it crossed that line, wherever that line is. But that doesn't mean the game is dead or failing.
That line where f2p is more profitable than p2p is not a solid line for all games, it greatly depends on marketing and how much it costs to maintain the game.
Your truth is nothing but hyperbole.
edit - I don't think the player model has anything to do with maturity of the gamer either. Percentage wise I'm confident that both p2p and f2p have approximately the same number of jerks and good people. Look at WoW.
I'm not really sure. My brother is enjoying the crap out of LoL, which is a f2p game where skill matters. I'm currently playing Path of Exile (yeah I paid to be in the closed beta, but it is a f2p game) and having a blast so far.
Steam is releasing f2p games to their shop client.
Just because some noob programmers can make a f2p game, doesn't mean that some of them wont shine. Media is here for a reason. Even though I'm starting to doubt the media and making my own site for reliable reviews, there are also personal user reviews in some sites.
The kids growing up today are playing f2p games on android (because their hands can not yet fathom the PC beast, trust me, I know). Every new generation has lots of time on their hands while seeking job or being a school outcast. Older people have family and responsibility, and they have a job, and guess where most of the money gets put at? Food, ele, house building, rent, kids, etc..
The MMO industry is most likely most played around with by kids, jobless people and people taking cash out of social help banks (in Sweden we don't like that you be on the street because you may have some personal issues).
Originally posted by Zippy i really detest the non P2P model. The quality of the game and the the quality of the players one encounters is signifigantly different. Quite simply P2P games have a more mature and better skilled playerbase by a very large margin. Older veteran MMO players understand that the traditional sub model is the place to be to play with the type of people they have been playing with the last 15 years. Unfortunately each new game promising grenner pastures takes a chunk of players from our sub games. We get some back after people realize the new game of the months was not as good as the hype but they do damage to guilds and the playerbase of sub games.While I think the sub model is the only alternative for veteran players it is having a tough time with people lacking patience and jumping back and forth between their sub game and the new flavor of the month game.
Really? WoW would like to have a word with you. Sure there's still 9.1 million subs, so you're going to have a lot more variance, but the pay model is not going to determine anything about individual skill or maturity. Asshats are asshats no matter what game they play. Skill within a game is more about familiarity of certain gaming mechanics and reacting to situations, skill varies greatly among all people regardles if they are paying or not. I have been playing mmos since Nov of 1999 with AC1, and played MUDs for about two years before that, so I am not a noob to the scene.
The only part I will concede is that with F2P or B2P gaming you're going to have more younger people (High School and College Kids) since they are typically more strapped for cash. Their age isn't going to determine their skill or maturity outright, but young people to tend to act....well young at times.
As a mmo veteran, I am looking forward to what the future will bring. If GW2 is as successful as many are predicting (and from playing in all three beta weekends, I believe the game will do very well), we could see the B2P business model become more of a norm over the next 5 years or so. Gaming Companies and their Investors are looking for a maximum amount of return on the investment, and subs have a pretty poor track record over the past 7 years or so. Look at how many mmos went F2P, it was either that or closing the project all together I am sure. Considering the uptick in revenue many of these failing mmos have seen when going F2P, investors will take notice. If B2P proves to be profitable, you'll see more of the same.
Personally, I'd rather drop $40-60 on a game once and then play it as I see fit, whether it be no-lifing the game or playing casually. If the game is good enough, they'll wind up making some money off me.
Originally posted by dave6660 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by dave6660
Of course, it's a great marketing technique. Use the word "free" and watch the masses come running. Paying for stuff is so passe.
Yeah, and marketing technqiue usually works great when it is backed up by reality. Like in this case, as shown again and again, most F2P players never pay a dime.
Of course the masses come running. Heck, i come running too. Fun for Free. And i have been doing that for 2-3 years now.
In fact, after my WOW annual pass is up, i probably will never play a sub MMO again.
The F2P model will work great until the small minority who subsidize the large majority get fed up and stop paying.
Sure, nothing last forever. Not games. Not movies. Not even WOW.
So what? I will take that subsidy as long as there are still whales. It will give free fun for a while.
In other words, what Zynga is going through right now.
MMOs ARE evolving.
They are being made for consoles as well as PCs and now the phone app market has opened up with tie ins. The MMO world was already filled with F2P games making hand over fist like Atlantica Online, Runes of Magic and with Nexon being one of the largest gaming companies on the planet right now making almost half of their over 1 billion a year in profits coming from F2P games...
And now companies outside of Asia and Europe are seeing that the F2P market is bigger than the sub market and can be far more profitable. Only WoW has managed to top the biggest F2P games with its playerbase...once you remove WoW, no sub game has come close to the playerbases of the big F2P games and that was BEFORE consoles and apps came into the picture.
Now, you have the biggest game developers talking about NOTHING but how to open up the MMO genre to player generated content and microtransactions while making them mobile and more interactive when not even logged into the games.
Face it, you are a dinosaur and your outdated way of playing is ending.
I like how this post is just a big shot taken at TOR and how it has "failed" even though its still the second largest subbed MMO in the western market. lol fail..... sure.
All that SWTOR's switch to F2P proves is that this is definitely the future for mmos. Devs from numerous companies and many of the top voices in the industry have shared the same sentiment. SWTOR is a quality game, but WOW came out at the right time and cornered the sub market. The sub business model had to evolve for other games to compete and it has.
F2P IS the future and there really is no point in disputing that.... just too much evidence to back it up. It is a good thing too, this model forces devs to make good content worth paying for. Thats better than paying 15 bucks a month just to play a game cause lets face it most MMOs dont give us content each month for that 15 dollars.
(ps I personally guarantee RIFT, TSW, and TERA will all introduce a F2P option within the next 6 months. I also think WOW will open up a F2P option within the next year and TESO will be one of the first MMOs to launch B2P with a sub and no sub option.)
You may continue hating on games.
Originally posted by mcburly (ps I personally guarantee RIFT, TSW, and TERA will all introduce a F2P option within the next 6 months. I also think WOW will open up a F2P option within the next year and TESO will be one of the first MMOs to launch B2P with a sub and no sub option.)
Personally, i am waiting for TSW to go F2P. I certainly will not play any new sub games again with so many F2P options. However, TSW interests me because of a very different setting.
I have also no doubt it is going F2P .. and i can wait. With D3 now, Borderland 2 and MOP coming (MOP will prob be the last sub game i played .. since i have the annual pass) .. and other SP games, i have lots of do before trying out TSW.
Originally posted by BloodyViking I completely agree. The failiure of the latest batch of MMO's to keep their subscribers is because; 1) Not enough grinding (you CAN make grinding fun) 2) Not enough social sidegames to keep people busy over time 3) Not complex enough character-development with a long timeframe
You sir; have crossed a good line.
It's about time someone believes you can make grinding fun.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW. Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
Originally posted by Sora2810 Originally posted by BloodyViking I completely agree. The failiure of the latest batch of MMO's to keep their subscribers is because; 1) Not enough grinding (you CAN make grinding fun) 2) Not enough social sidegames to keep people busy over time 3) Not complex enough character-development with a long timeframe
He missed the most important part .. competition at the price of FREE.
Hard to keep subscribers when the player and can play for free by a click away.
Of course subscription model will have it's place, simply because it's highly profitable. The amount of people hating blizzard for their greed can confirm that. But like someone mentioned, P2P sets up a quality bar, that developers have to care about. You can't simply hype and then milk P2P players, TOR is perfect example what will happen if you do.
The future is one high quality P2P MMO title that gets that 15$ a month and few freebie mode F2P titles for more variety. Simply because one can't play seriously and long term a F2P title without spending crapload of money. The only working F2P modes are EvE/Tera like where you grind for 30 day game time and game is actually P2P. Otherwise there will always be some limitations(aka being inferior compared to paying players aka P2W) that you have to accept to play for free in F2P title.
And just to chime in on LOTRO/DDO, those games had substantial amount of so called life time members, which no longer paid monthly sub, yet were the most loyal customers. Best deal gamers can ever get, but worst one for company. So while LOTRO pre F2P population seemed healthy, the actual number of people that were still paying might have been much lower.
Originally posted by crazynanny The future is one high quality P2P MMO title that gets that 15$ a month and few freebie mode F2P titles for more variety. Simply because one can't play seriously and long term a F2P title without spending crapload of money. The only working F2P modes are EvE/Tera like where you grind for 30 day game time and game is actually P2P. Otherwise there will always be some limitations(aka being inferior compared to paying players aka P2W) that you have to accept to play for free in F2P title.
More proof the vast majority of people that slam F2P games know nothing about them.
I have been playing F2P games for some 7 years now and I have yet to play a single one, many of them Asian and European games where I was not as powerful as everyone else at end game.
You can pay to win, but every game I have played you can only pay to win while leveling to end game...and if someone wants to drop a few $100 to get to max level a few days before me...more power to them because in the end I will get there and be on a level playing field.
As for your quality comment, its beyond laughable. Guild Wars is ranked as one of the top MMOs of all time and DDO isnt far from it...and I have yet to drop one single penny into DDO in over 2 years of playing.
Originally posted by Humphrie In closing, I'd like to once again praise EA for being such AMAZING and UPSTANDING citizens of the gaming world. There's nothing like seeing a company claim that 40% of the 700k(ish) or so people who had quit since launch stated that the 'subscription model' was the primary reason for canceling. First of all, that's an outright lie. Second of all, yeah, we all had an issue paying money for crap.[mod edit] So, in that sense, yes, of course all of us who quit had an 'issue' with the subscription model. I don't like subscriptions for bad games. Voila.
This a million times over nobody wants to pay for bad game play. However I think ea/bioware is blowing smoke up folk backside saying that folks hated to pay for the game. The real truth is folks don't want to pay for a bad game, the real reasons are many and varied for different folks. It is not a money related issue 15 bucks a month is nothing, most folks just don't like bad games, and the voted with their wallet.
However the lie that 40% of folks will come back to the game after free to play, that is a good one, you got to fix the real reasons they left in the first place. If you don't fix those problems folks will come back and go "ugg they fixed nothing" then leave again.
This is just an act of desperation on EA/Bioware plate. The other games like lotro that went free to play already had so much more to offer than swtor does.
Originally posted by erictlewis However the lie that 40% of folks will come back to the game after free to play, that is a good one, you got to fix the real reasons they left in the first place. If you don't fix those problems folks will come back and go "ugg they fixed nothing" then leave again. This is just an act of desperation on EA/Bioware plate. The other games like lotro that went free to play already had so much more to offer than swtor does.
I wouldnt call it a lie...I will be going back to do the stories thats for sure, and I am also sure that most Bioware fans will go back just for that reason as well. I know a decent portion of my guildmates will be going back to do the stories.
Hell, I paid for the damn game, the stories are great...if it doesnt cost anything I WILL GET MY MONEYS WORTH OUT OF THIS GAME...even if it isnt my MMOs money worth. But if Bioware is holding out hope that they are somehow going to get me to use their shop...lol...I dont think so. Paytraps dont work on me...their going trap, and not actual F2P just proves to me they are disconnected from the consumers.
F2P players dont get "tricked" into subbing for a game that wasnt worth subbing in the first place, or spending a bunch of money to "unlock" the game...all it takes is one single look at how all the paytraps dont measure up to the playerbase of the F2P or the money those companies make on actual microtransactions.
I don't agree with the OP.
1) Numerous analysts and developers have already come out and said it is.
2) The P2P model was a tough sell even during its inception (I still know many people whom refused to buy a game that's P2P from back in the UO days).
3) The success of WoW is more of a social phenomenum than an MMO success. People subscribe to it because their friends do. It's more like a paid sub to a social networking site.
4) Why do you think all these P2P models that were suffering found new success in F2P? Because the games lacked a certain quality? Please. The games offer just as much as WoW does.
5) The economy and other larger factors than game design (unemployment rate, reduced customer spending, etc).
TLDR: It's more of an economic issue than a design issue. You need to look at the bigger picture.
If the developers/publishers weren't foresighted enough to ensure that their payment model would continue to gain them revenue, then in my opinion, they have failed.
Most commonly this would be the P2P moving toward F2P, but it also might refer to a F2P game gradually becoming P2W over time.
Maybe the game stays around for awhile yet, but let's face it, a change in payment model in any MMO means that something is wrong enough that it wasn't worth paying for in the way they first intended.
Originally posted by mcburly I like how this post is just a big shot taken at TOR and how it has "failed" even though its still the second largest subbed MMO in the western market. lol fail..... sure. All that SWTOR's switch to F2P proves is that this is definitely the future for mmos. Devs from numerous companies and many of the top voices in the industry have shared the same sentiment. SWTOR is a quality game, but WOW came out at the right time and cornered the sub market. The sub business model had to evolve for other games to compete and it has. F2P IS the future and there really is no point in disputing that.... just too much evidence to back it up. It is a good thing too, this model forces devs to make good content worth paying for. Thats better than paying 15 bucks a month just to play a game cause lets face it most MMOs dont give us content each month for that 15 dollars. (ps I personally guarantee RIFT, TSW, and TERA will all introduce a F2P option within the next 6 months. I also think WOW will open up a F2P option within the next year and TESO will be one of the first MMOs to launch B2P with a sub and no sub option.) You may continue hating on games.
When your operating cost is begins to overtake your revenue than your game isn't doing well. I don't care how many subs you have. Despite popular belief games don't go F2P when they're doing well.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.-- Herman Melville