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Would You?

24

Comments

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    From what I've seen I think the game has a better case for subscription value than any other MMO in the last 5 years. I'd be happy to pay a sub.
  • dageezadageeza london, KYPosts: 578Member

    In all honesty GW2 is the only game in the current crop of games that i would actually sub to..

    GW2 has pretty much everything i have ever longed for in a game for a very long time so fresh out of its vanilla box it is like a dream game to me personally so if it were a sub game i would buy and sub to GW2..

    I have nothing against subscriptions but i dont pay to play clones and or average content games anymore, imho GW2 is way above average and certainly isnt a clone..

    Playing GW2..

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member

    No sub is just icing on the cake to me for GW2, would gladly pay a sub as long as it had a lasting appeal to me.

    I am convinced that GW2 is my MMO of choice not because of it being at least a decent (not saying it's just decent) MMO plus no sub but because of all of their philosophies stated in their manifesto.  Was actually against GW2 as I thought it was just another Aion but after watching and agreeing to their manifesto, they sold me on the spot.

    A sub just limits me to one MMO at a time as I don't do dual subs as that's just a waste of money to me.  I quite SWTOR rather quickly because of the tired same ol' same ol' and am against Funcom's route of doing a retail sale + sub + cash shop but GW2 being close to launch and being a B2P along with Neverwinter did have a significant factor into my choice of not purchasing TSW and has impacted my willingness to go into a P2P MMO ever again.

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    With all the buzz about SW:TOR going F2P and them saying the #1 reason (according to their exit poll) was because it was a subscription model, people are making all kinds of assumptions about the P2P business model. For me, SW:TOR just was not a deep enough, or good enough a game to warrant a sub. With all the excitement going on about GW2, I am curious how good a game it is and how deep it runs.

    Let's play make believe for a moment.
    If Arenanet decided to go with a sub model, would you still play GW2 when it comes out? Do you think the game is good enough to warrant a subscription? Or would the sub have you running away from the game, lickity-split?

    Would the sub be the only basis for you to play or not, or would you look deeply into the game and have a few different factors help you decide.

    Remember, this is just make believe here, so don't go too overboard with your reactions :)

    The MMO market is changing. Games are not worth 15 bucks a month. I have been MMOing for 14 years and seen every change this industry has taken. The big one was 15 bucks a month was needed to cover server costs and now they are just a footnote in a quarterly meeting because it’s not really worth talking about. MMOs used to be designed from the ground up, now they are made with game engines, that cost money, but lower the production costs a lot and save time.

    So where is our 15 bucks a month being used for? 500-1000% profit? DDO has proved that a fair cash shop can make lots of money and win lots of customers. GW1 made it’s with a B2P model that did not have a pay to win cash shop. In this current market and the changes to the MMO industry. 

    I would pay a sub fee for GW2, its worth it but no MMO is worth 15 bucks a month. First game to make it big being fair about the prices and the whole MMO market will be forced to change. I Hope GW2 has millions of players and their cash shops brings in about an average of 4-6 bucks a months per player (thats a lot of cash) Thats what I think is a fair sub, 4-6 bucks a month, no more. But I am forced to pay more because everyone is. We need to vote with our wallets if we want this to change.

     

    I'm willing to bet that they expect far more than $15 per month per active player with the Gem Store and the ability to convert gems to in-game currency.  For as much good will as the players have given ArenaNet, it's still a company that reports to investors.  Investors make sure the accountants (or the "monetization department") have adequate pull to represent thier only real interest ($).  If they thought they could have made more money with a $15 per month sub model, they would have gone that way.


    Or ANet would have told the investors to go fuck themselves.  ANet has thus far to me proven that they will stand by their ideals and philosophies.  They were formed based on a philosophy and seem to be uncompromising and are very community/fan focused.  Never have I seen commitment to it's fans like ANet. 

    It's not like there are any shortage of investors anyways for GW2.

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon

    Yes.

    BUT! I'd also demand more updates. Right now, GW2 is worth it even if it doesn't get any content updates, but for me to spend more money on it, with a monthly sub or not, it must get a steady flow of new content.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    With all the buzz about SW:TOR going F2P and them saying the #1 reason (according to their exit poll) was because it was a subscription model, people are making all kinds of assumptions about the P2P business model. For me, SW:TOR just was not a deep enough, or good enough a game to warrant a sub. With all the excitement going on about GW2, I am curious how good a game it is and how deep it runs.

    Let's play make believe for a moment.
    If Arenanet decided to go with a sub model, would you still play GW2 when it comes out? Do you think the game is good enough to warrant a subscription? Or would the sub have you running away from the game, lickity-split?

    Would the sub be the only basis for you to play or not, or would you look deeply into the game and have a few different factors help you decide.

    Remember, this is just make believe here, so don't go too overboard with your reactions :)

    The MMO market is changing. Games are not worth 15 bucks a month. I have been MMOing for 14 years and seen every change this industry has taken. The big one was 15 bucks a month was needed to cover server costs and now they are just a footnote in a quarterly meeting because it’s not really worth talking about. MMOs used to be designed from the ground up, now they are made with game engines, that cost money, but lower the production costs a lot and save time.

    So where is our 15 bucks a month being used for? 500-1000% profit? DDO has proved that a fair cash shop can make lots of money and win lots of customers. GW1 made it’s with a B2P model that did not have a pay to win cash shop. In this current market and the changes to the MMO industry. 

    I would pay a sub fee for GW2, its worth it but no MMO is worth 15 bucks a month. First game to make it big being fair about the prices and the whole MMO market will be forced to change. I Hope GW2 has millions of players and their cash shops brings in about an average of 4-6 bucks a months per player (thats a lot of cash) Thats what I think is a fair sub, 4-6 bucks a month, no more. But I am forced to pay more because everyone is. We need to vote with our wallets if we want this to change.

     

    I'm willing to bet that they expect far more than $15 per month per active player with the Gem Store and the ability to convert gems to in-game currency.  For as much good will as the players have given ArenaNet, it's still a company that reports to investors.  Investors make sure the accountants (or the "monetization department") have adequate pull to represent thier only real interest ($).  If they thought they could have made more money with a $15 per month sub model, they would have gone that way.

     

    I think ANet is one of the few, a good company. Quality product for a fair price, over forcing people to pay 15+ a month. They are looking at making more money by winning more customers. Its like selling volume over high end. Both can make the same money. It’s like Walmart and Sears. Same shirt in Walmart is 4 bucks cheaper but they sell 20% more shirts then Sears (Not real, just made up the numbers to make a point) Most people hate Walmart but we use them because they are fair on their prices. Now we have Target following suit and I am sure others will follow. 

    I think that’s what is happening to the MMO industry. Its gotten so large that the price war is about to start. ANet is one of the first to throw down the gloves and if they do well, then we will mark Aug 25th as the day MMOs changed how they made us pay for product. Little thanks to ANet from me!!!!


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    No, because I am fundamentally opposed to paying a subscription for a game.  I personally think that subs are just a rip off anymore.  There was a time when they were necessary, but that time is long past.

     

    However, in answer to the spirit of your question, yes, I think GW2 is a good enough, and deep enough, game to warrant a sub.  (remember, this is just a thought exercise)  I find GW2 to be one of the most fun games I've ever played.  And there are so many different and challenging things to do that I don't think many people quite grasp yet how deep this game really is.  So while it's a very different creature from the MMOs we all know and (usually) love, I think it ranks with the best of them.

     

    The fact that there is no sub for it is just icing on the cake.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    With all the buzz about SW:TOR going F2P and them saying the #1 reason (according to their exit poll) was because it was a subscription model, people are making all kinds of assumptions about the P2P business model. For me, SW:TOR just was not a deep enough, or good enough a game to warrant a sub. With all the excitement going on about GW2, I am curious how good a game it is and how deep it runs.

    Let's play make believe for a moment.
    If Arenanet decided to go with a sub model, would you still play GW2 when it comes out? Do you think the game is good enough to warrant a subscription? Or would the sub have you running away from the game, lickity-split?

    Would the sub be the only basis for you to play or not, or would you look deeply into the game and have a few different factors help you decide.

    Remember, this is just make believe here, so don't go too overboard with your reactions :)

    The MMO market is changing. Games are not worth 15 bucks a month. I have been MMOing for 14 years and seen every change this industry has taken. The big one was 15 bucks a month was needed to cover server costs and now they are just a footnote in a quarterly meeting because it’s not really worth talking about. MMOs used to be designed from the ground up, now they are made with game engines, that cost money, but lower the production costs a lot and save time.

    So where is our 15 bucks a month being used for? 500-1000% profit? DDO has proved that a fair cash shop can make lots of money and win lots of customers. GW1 made it’s with a B2P model that did not have a pay to win cash shop. In this current market and the changes to the MMO industry. 

    I would pay a sub fee for GW2, its worth it but no MMO is worth 15 bucks a month. First game to make it big being fair about the prices and the whole MMO market will be forced to change. I Hope GW2 has millions of players and their cash shops brings in about an average of 4-6 bucks a months per player (thats a lot of cash) Thats what I think is a fair sub, 4-6 bucks a month, no more. But I am forced to pay more because everyone is. We need to vote with our wallets if we want this to change.

     

    I'm willing to bet that they expect far more than $15 per month per active player with the Gem Store and the ability to convert gems to in-game currency.  For as much good will as the players have given ArenaNet, it's still a company that reports to investors.  Investors make sure the accountants (or the "monetization department") have adequate pull to represent thier only real interest ($).  If they thought they could have made more money with a $15 per month sub model, they would have gone that way.

    I think you'd lose that bet pretty handily.  Anet realizes they are not going to generate that much per player per month.  They also realize they don't need to in order to be profitable.

     

    No they wouldn't have because that goes against the core of their philosophy.  While they are a business that obviously is there to make money, they seem to realize they can be very profitable for a long time without gouging their player base.  In fact, they proved that with their first game.

     

    As for their "investors", NCSoft seems to have a lot of faith in Anet to make them a good chunk of change with this model.  Anet, in return has already proven they can do it.

     

    I think Anet has enough faith in their game to know they could have easily made more money by adopting WoW's pricing model.  Most MMO players even in this day and age are still very willing to pay a monthly sub for a game they like and I think many people are going to like GW2.  The fact that Anet hasn't adopted the WoW model and also hasn't adopted even the LoTRO cash shop model proves that they don't mind risking a smaller profit to stick to their philosophy.

     

    And that is why I have already given them my money and will continue to do so but at a much lower rate than $15/month.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • ZeroxinZeroxin LondonPosts: 2,521Member Uncommon
    I would definitely sub to it but only when I can spare the coins.

    This is not a game.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Well I just ordered some hardware to double my ram and bought a SSD.  So if I ordered a $170 in upgrades to play GW2 better I certainly would pay a sub.
  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    If Arenanet decided to go with a sub model, would you still play GW2 when it comes out? Do you think the game is good enough to warrant a subscription? Or would the sub have you running away from the game, lickity-split?

    Remember, this is just make believe here, so don't go too overboard with your reactions :)

    i would sub to GW2 - its more fun for me than any current mmo

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    With all the buzz about SW:TOR going F2P and them saying the #1 reason (according to their exit poll) was because it was a subscription model, people are making all kinds of assumptions about the P2P business model. For me, SW:TOR just was not a deep enough, or good enough a game to warrant a sub. With all the excitement going on about GW2, I am curious how good a game it is and how deep it runs.

    Let's play make believe for a moment.
    If Arenanet decided to go with a sub model, would you still play GW2 when it comes out? Do you think the game is good enough to warrant a subscription? Or would the sub have you running away from the game, lickity-split?

    Would the sub be the only basis for you to play or not, or would you look deeply into the game and have a few different factors help you decide.

    Remember, this is just make believe here, so don't go too overboard with your reactions :)

    The MMO market is changing. Games are not worth 15 bucks a month. I have been MMOing for 14 years and seen every change this industry has taken. The big one was 15 bucks a month was needed to cover server costs and now they are just a footnote in a quarterly meeting because it’s not really worth talking about. MMOs used to be designed from the ground up, now they are made with game engines, that cost money, but lower the production costs a lot and save time.

    So where is our 15 bucks a month being used for? 500-1000% profit? DDO has proved that a fair cash shop can make lots of money and win lots of customers. GW1 made it’s with a B2P model that did not have a pay to win cash shop. In this current market and the changes to the MMO industry. 

    I would pay a sub fee for GW2, its worth it but no MMO is worth 15 bucks a month. First game to make it big being fair about the prices and the whole MMO market will be forced to change. I Hope GW2 has millions of players and their cash shops brings in about an average of 4-6 bucks a months per player (thats a lot of cash) Thats what I think is a fair sub, 4-6 bucks a month, no more. But I am forced to pay more because everyone is. We need to vote with our wallets if we want this to change.

     

    I'm willing to bet that they expect far more than $15 per month per active player with the Gem Store and the ability to convert gems to in-game currency.  For as much good will as the players have given ArenaNet, it's still a company that reports to investors.  Investors make sure the accountants (or the "monetization department") have adequate pull to represent thier only real interest ($).  If they thought they could have made more money with a $15 per month sub model, they would have gone that way.

    I think you'd lose that bet pretty handily.  Anet realizes they are not going to generate that much per player per month.  They also realize they don't need to in order to be profitable.

     

    I don't think the amount of money they get per customer matters as much as the total revenue they generate.  If they get $5 per person per month but get 4 times as many consistent players because of the more friendly business model, they make out in the end.  It doesn't cost significantly more money to accomodate more players. 

  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member

    Well it would require some changes here and there to make sub a viable option. It's not like Arena Net just decided they won't have sub for GW2. It was their concept from the very start of the company and it does impact the design. 

    If GW2 would have sub fee it would be quite different game with different mechanics, no cash shop, and completely different approach to content consumption. They would need to put measures that would force players to play longer rather than allowing, and to degree embracing, the in-and-out entertainment. 

     

    Would I play it if it had sub fee? I don't know. It depends how it would be like. The fact there is or there is no sub fee doesn't really matter all that much for me, personally. It's a question how much do I get for that sub fee compared to alterantive offers. It's always matter of money:value rather than how much money do they ask. 

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    I'd pay a sub because it would be worth it IMO and I don't plan to hop around. Of course some of the shop items would have to go in that case since it conflicts with the purpose of GW2. In the end I think most will be paying a sub whether they realize it or not.

    People will always want free stuff even if they don't plan to use it. The problem is a lack of product worth the sub in comparison to what you can get for free.
  • ZzadZzad Palma de MallorcaPosts: 1,332Member Uncommon

    I would pay for a subscription to GW2....

    but for sure having the game without sub just burst longevity....

    I mean had Guild Wars 1 installed in all my Pcs over 6 years......

    That wouldn´t have happened if having a sub....

    So Yes i would pay a sub to play GW2 because it´s awesome,

    but in its BTP model lies the key of their incoming sucess over the next years.

    imageimage

     

  • sammyelisammyeli Fremont, CAPosts: 765Member

    I have running subs still in few games I would mind subbing, because lot of my friends play different things, so like them I have subs for what ever they play and they have it for what ever I play.

     

    Thank god for Anet because it made my job that much easier to get my friends into the game, not like it would hvae mattered but it was just icing, jsut buy and play.

    image

    “The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.”

    Carl Sagan-

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAPosts: 2,320Member Uncommon
    Might as well, I intend to put at least $10 in the item mall every month to support a game I love. That's essentially the same thing. Except, yanno...that if for some reason I can't for a month, I still get to play my game and characters. And I get to choose what my money gets me. You know, the little things.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member
    In a cold second. Ive payed as much for games that were no up to the quality standard of GW2.
  • Goll25Goll25 bath, PAPosts: 187Member
    It depends on how much content their is at launch + the quality and quantity of content they add in! I see no reason to pay for a game that rarely adds meaningful content.
  • joker007mojoker007mo joplin, MOPosts: 712Member

    when i first started the original guild wars no after all this time and factions,nightfall and eye of the north i figure what the hell why break with tradition so now probably. 

    that being said my cousin would bug me til i died if i didnt soo yea either way lol

    image

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    With all the buzz about SW:TOR going F2P and them saying the #1 reason (according to their exit poll) was because it was a subscription model, people are making all kinds of assumptions about the P2P business model. For me, SW:TOR just was not a deep enough, or good enough a game to warrant a sub. With all the excitement going on about GW2, I am curious how good a game it is and how deep it runs.

    Let's play make believe for a moment.
    If Arenanet decided to go with a sub model, would you still play GW2 when it comes out? Do you think the game is good enough to warrant a subscription? Or would the sub have you running away from the game, lickity-split?

    Would the sub be the only basis for you to play or not, or would you look deeply into the game and have a few different factors help you decide.

    Remember, this is just make believe here, so don't go too overboard with your reactions :)

    The MMO market is changing. Games are not worth 15 bucks a month. I have been MMOing for 14 years and seen every change this industry has taken. The big one was 15 bucks a month was needed to cover server costs and now they are just a footnote in a quarterly meeting because it’s not really worth talking about. MMOs used to be designed from the ground up, now they are made with game engines, that cost money, but lower the production costs a lot and save time.

    So where is our 15 bucks a month being used for? 500-1000% profit? DDO has proved that a fair cash shop can make lots of money and win lots of customers. GW1 made it’s with a B2P model that did not have a pay to win cash shop. In this current market and the changes to the MMO industry. 

    I would pay a sub fee for GW2, its worth it but no MMO is worth 15 bucks a month. First game to make it big being fair about the prices and the whole MMO market will be forced to change. I Hope GW2 has millions of players and their cash shops brings in about an average of 4-6 bucks a months per player (thats a lot of cash) Thats what I think is a fair sub, 4-6 bucks a month, no more. But I am forced to pay more because everyone is. We need to vote with our wallets if we want this to change.

     

    I'm willing to bet that they expect far more than $15 per month per active player with the Gem Store and the ability to convert gems to in-game currency.  For as much good will as the players have given ArenaNet, it's still a company that reports to investors.  Investors make sure the accountants (or the "monetization department") have adequate pull to represent thier only real interest ($).  If they thought they could have made more money with a $15 per month sub model, they would have gone that way.


    Or ANet would have told the investors to go fuck themselves.  ANet has thus far to me proven that they will stand by their ideals and philosophies.  They were formed based on a philosophy and seem to be uncompromising and are very community/fan focused.  Never have I seen commitment to it's fans like ANet. 

    It's not like there are any shortage of investors anyways for GW2.

    Anet isn't an independent company, they are owned by NCSOFT.  They can't exactly tell their owners, who are a publicly traided company expecting profits to go f-themselves.

  • ZzadZzad Palma de MallorcaPosts: 1,332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by niceguy3978
    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    With all the buzz about SW:TOR going F2P and them saying the #1 reason (according to their exit poll) was because it was a subscription model, people are making all kinds of assumptions about the P2P business model. For me, SW:TOR just was not a deep enough, or good enough a game to warrant a sub. With all the excitement going on about GW2, I am curious how good a game it is and how deep it runs.

    Let's play make believe for a moment.
    If Arenanet decided to go with a sub model, would you still play GW2 when it comes out? Do you think the game is good enough to warrant a subscription? Or would the sub have you running away from the game, lickity-split?

    Would the sub be the only basis for you to play or not, or would you look deeply into the game and have a few different factors help you decide.

    Remember, this is just make believe here, so don't go too overboard with your reactions :)

    The MMO market is changing. Games are not worth 15 bucks a month. I have been MMOing for 14 years and seen every change this industry has taken. The big one was 15 bucks a month was needed to cover server costs and now they are just a footnote in a quarterly meeting because it’s not really worth talking about. MMOs used to be designed from the ground up, now they are made with game engines, that cost money, but lower the production costs a lot and save time.

    So where is our 15 bucks a month being used for? 500-1000% profit? DDO has proved that a fair cash shop can make lots of money and win lots of customers. GW1 made it’s with a B2P model that did not have a pay to win cash shop. In this current market and the changes to the MMO industry. 

    I would pay a sub fee for GW2, its worth it but no MMO is worth 15 bucks a month. First game to make it big being fair about the prices and the whole MMO market will be forced to change. I Hope GW2 has millions of players and their cash shops brings in about an average of 4-6 bucks a months per player (thats a lot of cash) Thats what I think is a fair sub, 4-6 bucks a month, no more. But I am forced to pay more because everyone is. We need to vote with our wallets if we want this to change.

     

    I'm willing to bet that they expect far more than $15 per month per active player with the Gem Store and the ability to convert gems to in-game currency.  For as much good will as the players have given ArenaNet, it's still a company that reports to investors.  Investors make sure the accountants (or the "monetization department") have adequate pull to represent thier only real interest ($).  If they thought they could have made more money with a $15 per month sub model, they would have gone that way.


    Or ANet would have told the investors to go fuck themselves.  ANet has thus far to me proven that they will stand by their ideals and philosophies.  They were formed based on a philosophy and seem to be uncompromising and are very community/fan focused.  Never have I seen commitment to it's fans like ANet. 

    It's not like there are any shortage of investors anyways for GW2.

    Anet isn't an independent company, they are owned by NCSOFT.  They can't exactly tell their owners, who are a publicly traided company expecting profits to go f-themselves.

    I think Ncsoft has shown that they BELIEVE in Arenanet.

    Arenanet themselves have thank Ncsoft in media for letting them do without any pressure...

    I´m not a Ncsoft fan specially after my experience with Aion....but "to the caesar is own".

    How long will this trust last? No one knows....but i do also believe in Arenanet.

  • rykim86rykim86 winnipeg, MBPosts: 236Member
    Would rather pay for GW2 than cable.
  • sammandarsammandar San Antonio, TXPosts: 523Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    With all the buzz about SW:TOR going F2P and them saying the #1 reason (according to their exit poll) was because it was a subscription model, people are making all kinds of assumptions about the P2P business model. For me, SW:TOR just was not a deep enough, or good enough a game to warrant a sub. With all the excitement going on about GW2, I am curious how good a game it is and how deep it runs.

    Let's play make believe for a moment.
    If Arenanet decided to go with a sub model, would you still play GW2 when it comes out? Do you think the game is good enough to warrant a subscription? Or would the sub have you running away from the game, lickity-split?

    Would the sub be the only basis for you to play or not, or would you look deeply into the game and have a few different factors help you decide.

    Remember, this is just make believe here, so don't go too overboard with your reactions :)

    Before the beta, I would have said no, but after playing the beta, I think I would pay a sub to play GW2.

  • sammandarsammandar San Antonio, TXPosts: 523Member
    Originally posted by rykim86
    Would rather pay for GW2 than cable.


    hahahaha... yes, I agree... same here

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