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Whats the main argument against holy trinity?

124

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  • DenambrenDenambren Montreal, QCPosts: 320Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

    For me its because with a trinity set up we move out of the realm of fantasy and into the realm of the rediculous. Why? 

    The mobs are SO stupid they ignore all the guys shooting them full of arrows, stabbing them in the back and flinging fireballs at them and carry on hitting the shield being held up in front of them by the big, butch, heavily armoured warrior dude. The one they can't seem to kill, no matter how hard they try, because of the other dude in the dress who keeps healing him.

    That analogy is great. The total massacre of suspension of disbelief when playing the game. 

    To further comment on that analogy, I would say that the holy trinity breaks the game experience down to balancing mathematical equations between three points in the most efficient way. You don't need a graphical interface to do the trinity because the trinity was designed for text MUDs where it was nothing but number crunching and text output.

    Now that we've (arguably) evolved beyond math numbers and text echos for RPGs, it makes sense to create more dynamic systems for combat that feel closer to living, thinking opponents than the traditional number crunch game with text values in a chat log.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Psychow

    I wonder how many of the people who said the trinity is boring, ever tanked. Tanking is not boring. It can be frustrating tho, with some nutty pew pew DPS screwing the fight up.

     

    Plus most wipes are the healer's fault... ;-)

    Raided as a tank in EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Rift, AoC, SWTOR etc etc etc. Mostly beacuse other players were too terrible to do a decent job at it.

    Tanking is easy. Off-tanking is slightly less easy but still easy. Most players are bad.

    Bring on the demise of the trinity!

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by arieste

    Historically specialization is more effective than generalization.   This can be seen in sports, in science, in business, in armed combat.  It makes more sense to have dedicated roles. 

    No one is arguing that specialization isn't more effective. The discussion isn't about specilialized or distict roles but about why people like or dislike the trinity and its related mechanics.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Grimlock426Grimlock426 Sacramento, CAPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by QuicklyScott

     

     

    I myself won't play a themepark MMO without being able to play a tank.

    If we could clone several million of you to drop into the "trinity" based games maybe it wouldn't be so bad.  Unfortunately this is not the case and a vast majority of people don't want to be tanks or healers and therefore it's difficult to find groups.

  • Mordred1Mordred1 BrasPosts: 77Member

    Apart from being dumb how mobs keep hitting the armored guy over and over as people already have said, it's boring, at least for me, to keep a set role in such a long type of game. I like roles in MOBA games like DOTA, where you perform it in a match and it's done. Even FPS' let you trade roles when you die to keep things dynamic.That's why I tend to choose hybrid classes in MMORPGs.

  • MaroxadMaroxad SölvesborgPosts: 28Member

    The main arguement I have against it is how stale and unexciting combat gets due to the fact that mobs are way too predictable. Of course, this is just one of the many issues I have with the trinity.

    I played as a tank btw.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,706Member Uncommon

    The trinity is fine.  It's the specific implementation which needs more variation.

    The trinity just becomes a scapegoat since it's a clear game mechanic players easily grok.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    my only argument is that alternatives are good. otherwise I think the Trinity is fine.

    just like the eternal dkp argument, there is no perfect system. it's not the system, it's how you use it. TBC still offered the best instanced group and raid content ever (imo) .. and that was trinity based combat. I havent seen anything that comes close to some of those fights or Vael which was in vanilla, but still was an amazing fight.

    Take Gruul's Lair. The ultimate tank and spank instance. Yes it was tank and spank, but it was anything but predictable and easy at gear level.

    Actually .. my main argument against the trinity would be threat mods. They never should have allowed that garbage.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon

    Simple example why Trinity is broken:

     

    Stage 1: Hanging about for 30 mins or so waiting for those rarer tanks and healers... its a game, waiting about, really?

    "LFM, 1 Tank, 3 Healers rest DPS to raid x", "Tank gear goes to tanks, healer gear goes to Healers etc etc"

    Stage 2. An hour later the raid stops because a Tank/Healer leaves or is not up to the task, or worse you raid disbands...Its meant to be a game remember.

    "Looking for 1 Tank, killed first boss"

     

    Now without a trinity:

     

    Stage 1 "Looking for 9 more to raid x"  open loot rules.

    a player leaves..

    Stage 2 "looking for 1 more any class"

     

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • LuxthorLuxthor ZagrebPosts: 171Member
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Luxthor

    Human factor and recent average player base mentality catered with lazy game design spoiled your role, you become just a healing bot, someone they are waiting in LFG, an obstacle. ;)

    My most frequent role is healer or some healing hybrid, so I understand your pain perfectly. I'm afraid that distinctive role and complex encounters/environment game design became niche domain.

    Nah, that is just because MMOs just like most other computer games have become a lot easier the last 12 years or so.

    In most games you can play your healer more, but you don´t have to so few ever do.

    But distinct roles and complex encounters are 2 very different things, you can easily have one without the other.

    Let's say, no distinct roles, you got five sword soldiers and complex encounter: one mammoth with two poisonous cubs. Aggro on pull, poisonous cubs should not touch anyone.

    How many scenarios of fight you have?!

    Now, with different roles/abilities, suddenly you have countless possibilities. Distinct roles and complex encounters are two different things but they coexist with each other.

    ---
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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,706Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bladestrom

    Simple example why Trinity is broken:

     

    Stage 1: Hanging about for 30 mins or so waiting for those rarer tanks and healers... its a game, waiting about, really?

    "LFM, 1 Tank, 3 Healers rest DPS to raid x", "Tank gear goes to tanks, healer gear goes to Healers etc etc"

    Stage 2. An hour later the raid stops because a Tank/Healer leaves or is not up to the task, or worse you raid disbands...Its meant to be a game remember.

    "Looking for 1 Tank, killed first boss"

    Now without a trinity:

     Stage 1 "Looking for 9 more to raid x"  open loot rules.

    a player leaves..

    Stage 2 "looking for 1 more any class" 

    Except now you've removed all the fun of a team game.

    Whereas if you have multiple defined roles and require some, interesting teamwork emerges.

    Doesn't mean you have to do things exactly the same (WOW/RIFT/etc allowing role-switching, TF2 lets you switch mid-match to adapt to the situation, COH lets you use controllers or tanks somewhat interchangably.)  But some type of trinity is absolutely required for good teamplay.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • Got_Game_TVGot_Game_TV Mayfield Heights, OHPosts: 262Member Uncommon
    The Trinity, like any concept you see over and over, gets tired and repetitive.  The same mechanics are used every time and the game feels like work.
  • BigRock411BigRock411 Barrington, ILPosts: 299Member

    Most people want to sit in the back and spam a DPS macro.  Few want to excert the focus required to tank properly dont want the weight of the group on their backs ect.  People dont want to heal becuase you cant sleep while doing it but in a good group its so boring youll want to sleep.

     

    So everyone rolls a DPS for the pvp.

     

    I like that GW2 cut out healers, but rather than thinking of a creative and fun mechanic they kind of just cut it out all together...missed oppertunity to make a fun mechanic for healing.

     

    Sadly, Rift has a fantasic semi-healer...Choloromance...heals on damage and when people do damage they get heals...no real control over heals and no real direct heals but it was a mechanic that allowed heals on DPS style of play, which people prefer.

     

    Basically no one wants to take the risk on making unique or new mechanics, they are rightfully convinced that people will flock to their tried and true eq+daoc mechanics with CC in hand...no need to innovate when the money is flowing in from copy+paste mechanics.

    As someone whos not a blizzard fan i really hope they have the balls to invent and innovate on their secret mmo.  This trend needs to die already...not saying the mechanics are bad...i mean they have survived this long ...just need some damn variety already.

     

     

  • freegamesfreegames san gabriel, CAPosts: 158Member

    I personally find it okay under a few circumstances.

     

    1.  A healer or tank should be useful outside the group in a solo setting as well

    2. Every character has a healing skill and a protection skill

    3. They have to be mobile enough to escape if need be

    4. They are skill useful after death (aoe buff drops/heals/damages after death)

    5. Tanks should have some sort of passive in which they can survive up to 3-5 hits regardless of damage dealt so they are useful at almost all levels.

    6. Healers should also have a % based heal in addition to a fixed amount

     

     

    Could see a problem because many players look purely to what their damage stats do in addition to things like slows, stuns, blinds, silence, poison, bleeding, and skill locks.

     

    Healers in almost every game need to be buffed or they are nerfed to uselessness unless they heal 24/7. Some games take it to the extremes and healers make it impossible to kill the enemy or your allies.

     

    Tanks should be able to tank and deal some form of dmg vs just running around tanking all the time. Tanks should be able to soak in tons of damage without dealing too much damage to the enemy exccept they should have some heavy damage skills just in case.

  • pointchizpointchiz montreal, QCPosts: 73Member

    The Holy Trinity forces people to play roles they don't like. The majority of players play DPS and could care less about playing a healer; much less tanking. Ever tried playing SWTOR? Ever find a tank? Neither did I.

     

    The proportion of DPS vs Healer vs Tanks is so out of whack that the majority of the population can't even participate in the "end-game" that the designers have created. What's worse is that the developers designed this "end-game" to be the hardest part of the game and provides rewards that have a higher statistical advantage over other players who can't even participate.

     

    How screwed up is that?

  • pointchizpointchiz montreal, QCPosts: 73Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Bladestrom

    Simple example why Trinity is broken:

     

    Stage 1: Hanging about for 30 mins or so waiting for those rarer tanks and healers... its a game, waiting about, really?

    "LFM, 1 Tank, 3 Healers rest DPS to raid x", "Tank gear goes to tanks, healer gear goes to Healers etc etc"

    Stage 2. An hour later the raid stops because a Tank/Healer leaves or is not up to the task, or worse you raid disbands...Its meant to be a game remember.

    "Looking for 1 Tank, killed first boss"

    Now without a trinity:

     Stage 1 "Looking for 9 more to raid x"  open loot rules.

    a player leaves..

    Stage 2 "looking for 1 more any class" 

    Except now you've removed all the fun of a team game.

    Whereas if you have multiple defined roles and require some, interesting teamwork emerges.

    Doesn't mean you have to do things exactly the same (WOW/RIFT/etc allowing role-switching, TF2 lets you switch mid-match to adapt to the situation, COH lets you use controllers or tanks somewhat interchangably.)  But some type of trinity is absolutely required for good teamplay.

    I don't understand this teamplay you speak of.

     

    The tank cannot avoid from getting hit in the face and the healer has to heal it or else it's over. The DPS has to do what? DPS fast enough or else the boss gets angry and 1 hits the tank? Where does the teamplay come in?

  • hundejahrehundejahre Chicago, ILPosts: 339Member

    That it's been done to death and it's boring.

  • hundejahrehundejahre Chicago, ILPosts: 339Member

    Remember when the trinity was Tanking, Healing, and Crowd Control? DPS is the red-headed step-child of a system that was too hard for the A.D.D. generation.

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Luxthor
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Luxthor

    Human factor and recent average player base mentality catered with lazy game design spoiled your role, you become just a healing bot, someone they are waiting in LFG, an obstacle. ;)

    My most frequent role is healer or some healing hybrid, so I understand your pain perfectly. I'm afraid that distinctive role and complex encounters/environment game design became niche domain.

    Nah, that is just because MMOs just like most other computer games have become a lot easier the last 12 years or so.

    In most games you can play your healer more, but you don´t have to so few ever do.

    But distinct roles and complex encounters are 2 very different things, you can easily have one without the other.

    Let's say, no distinct roles, you got five sword soldiers and complex encounter: one mammoth with two poisonous cubs. Aggro on pull, poisonous cubs should not touch anyone.

    How many scenarios of fight you have?!

    Now, with different roles/abilities, suddenly you have countless possibilities. Distinct roles and complex encounters are two different things but they coexist with each other.

    Your hope for countless Possibilities have not occurred for this generation of Trinity implementation.

    Currently, by having Healer, Tank and Dps roles, all you got is 1 full tank to take all the hits, 1 Full Healer for the main tank, 1 off healer incase the full healer is Out of Mana, then DPS to wack the Mob as quickly as possible without getting the Aggro. And maybe an off tank incase Mob goes toward the Healer.

    That is the only combination of game play that is currently available.

    There are no other Possibilities that you hoped would occur, because you can not attempt any dungeon or raid content without a Tank and a Healer. Without both together, there is no Dungeon or Raid group.

    And with Both, the only possibilities is what I have just described.

    Without the Trinity, the possibilities becomes possible, not only will 5 sword Soldiers be possible, you can have 5 Thiefs, 5 Mages, 5 Healers and any combinations there of, it all depends on the skills they have.

     

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • tkoreapertkoreaper Castroville, TXPosts: 401Member Common
    I don't think the Trinity itself is bad... it's how games make it available. I think if every class was capable of Tanking, Healing, and DPSing without needing a dozen different sets of gear then there'd be no problem. You would be able to play the role you want most of the time, but would always have the option to fill another role without any problems.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    For me, the main argument against is the inherent silliness of taunt/threat mechanics.  <shrug>

    But I can play games with or without the concept of Tank, not that big a thang either way.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member

    The whole concept of "tank" the mobs focus on is quite irrealistic to the point of being silly. And this comes from someone who played WoW since it's release in 2004. Some of the most fun encounters in WoW were those without a threat table.

    Games like Asheron's Call had "tanks" too. But the mobs were not focusing on them following a threat table, you had to line up tanks to block the way if you didn't want the mob to pass and smash the more squishy characters without melee defense. This said, the mob AI in AC1 was quite primitive. GW2 is trying to reintroduce that mechanic, but with way smarter mob AI. For instance, my guardian in GW2 has skills that permit him to control a mob and eventually "pull" him away from a more squishy ranged character, but that doesn't mean the mob will automatically focus on him. Some of the smartest mobs will actually try to go for the weakest or most wounded character of those which are attacking it. That's a way more "natural" behaviour than the silly threat table mechanism.

    Actually, PvE in games like AC1 or GW2 becomes closer to PvP than to the classic threat based EQ clone PvE model.

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

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  • MorvMorv Royal Oak, MIPosts: 331Member
    Originally posted by Luxthor

    So tell me your reason against holy trinity, real reason pls?

    The idea of holding "aggro" is an interesting concept, and it is not a new idea either it goes back to the beginning of online games with Everquest. I am not a fan of the idea of holding aggro I am of the opinion these mobs should be intelligent and in the case of the holy trinity that creates an experience or battle that does not suspend belief but creates it.

    A believable, intelligent, creature would analyze his opponents or target the weakest of them if he expected to win. The mobs you face with a holy trinity obviously do not expect to win.

    Adding "stages" to the battle was an interesting idea, but the bosses/mobs still do not act in any intelligent way. There is AI out there today that can create a stalking mob, who is intelligent. Imagine a holy trinity of six characters walking through the jurassic park tall grass getting picked off one at a time because the Raptor's don't care about the "tank".

    It is about immersion, the suspension of belief, and the holy trinity, while interesting, just does not do it for me. Yes it is still fun sometimes, but overall when I look at academic AI and game AI and what is possible, I just feel, believe, and know that actual MMO's need to incorporate a more robust AI. One that gives NPCs day cycles, and a life of their own, and bad guys actual bad guy impulses and thought processes. It is actually possible today.

    If one were to follow aigamedev, they would see that AI in games has come a long way in the last two years. I just hope that in four or five, or sooner, we see some serious developers utilize the potentials already present.

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member

    I have two gripes with the current definition of the trinity:

     

    1) Having sometimes to wait for long periods for x role to show up because we can't do a dungeon/raid/go to the bathroom without it.

     

    2) I'll use a story for this one. Imagine a troop of soldiers in some war-torn country. The enemy attacks! Lt Bob immediatley runs up to them and starts calling them names and peeing on them. He's not exactly doing any damage, but he has their attention. They pepper him incessantly with bullets. But he won't die! Sgt Jim is on the case, coating his squadmate with bandages and aspirin. Meanwhile, Pvts Herp, Derp, and Derp fire rocket launchers with nuclear warheads at the bad guys. Who do not turn and reduce the Privates to mincemeat, because the bad guys are still mad that Bob peed on them.

    Then, a stray bullet catches Sgt Jim, and the team medic faceplants. Bob's in trouble! "Quick, Private Herp, I need aspirin!" Private Herp is too busy making sure he's using his rocket launcher as effectively as possibly to notice that. Or see that his pants are on fire. "Derp, help me!" screams Bob. "I can't!," both Derps shout cheerfully, "That's Jim's job!"

     

     

    These kinds of static, boring, unrealistic, and in the end aggravating mechanics are not necessary. We can make games where combat is more realsitic. We can make games that encourage you to bring a good player regardless of what class/role he is. We can make games where every person on the team is equally responsible for all aspects of the fight. Why not use them? Because people used to DPS roles are too lazy to do anyhing but spam a rotation? Because Healers LIKE when a large, complex, epic battle is nothing moe than them staring at five green bars and clicking on them?  Tanks enjoy staring at the mob's crotch all day? Lemme assure you, as someone that gravitates towards tank roles, I don't. 

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    The whole concept of "tank" the mobs focus on is quite irrealistic to the point of being silly. And this comes from someone who played WoW since it's release in 2004. Some of the most fun encounters in WoW were those without a threat table.

    Games like Asheron's Call had "tanks" too. But the mobs were not focusing on them following a threat table, you had to line up tanks to block the way if you didn't want the mob to pass and smash the more squishy characters without melee defense. This said, the mob AI in AC1 was quite primitive. GW2 is trying to reintroduce that mechanic, but with way smarter mob AI. For instance, my guardian in GW2 has skills that permit him to control a mob and eventually "pull" him away from a more squishy ranged character, but that doesn't mean the mob will automatically focus on him. Some of the smartest mobs will actually try to go for the weakest or most wounded character of those which are attacking it. That's a way more "natural" behaviour than the silly threat table mechanism.

    Actually, PvE in games like AC1 or GW2 becomes closer to PvP than to the classic threat based EQ clone PvE model.


    I spent hours yesterday in WvW "tanking" other players during the stress test.

    Seriously pissing people off! So much fun.

    Stun, cripple, interupt, apply vulnerability, physically step in between player and my team and box them out (attack won't go through another enemy standing right in front of you) as well as all kinds of other tricks.

    I was a Guardian, but level 15 so no traits to make me a "better" defensive/protection role, just smart play and weapon sets designed to harrass and aid.

    Actually my 5 trait points I had were in Power lol about as anti-defensive as you can get.

    Mace+Focus, Scepter+Shield.

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