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Too Hard , I'm done .. :(

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  • CarparaCarpara Member Posts: 3

    Agree. Just logged out an hour ago, went to the TSW webpage and removed the credit card information. I got more and more frustrated about the bugs. You know, over and over you are stuck in a quest where you can't click an item or it won't activate because I'm in the wrong instance. Towards the end I got those "Oh! Another one, so forget this quest also" moments.

    What really caused me to finally quit: Like mentioned, it got too hard. Maybe TSW is more for people who have the time to group but I'm more of the solo player that likes the company and chats of others now and then. - So today in Transilvania, it got to hard so I decided to head to London to get me a better sword. Then I ran into this "Oh! Another one, so forget this Marketplace also" moment.

    A bit more than 2 weeks till "Sleeping Dogs". Then GW2.

    I will miss the cinematics though. The atmosphere is awesome but the bugs... arrrghhhh

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Member UncommonPosts: 1,379
    Originally posted by elocke
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by elocke

    The funny thing is, I could accept the challenge and unlock all builds and swap builds when I need to, I just don't find that fun in the slightest.  Hence why I quit 2 -3 weeks into the game and in the last few zones of Transylvania.  It's just not worth the effort and the combat bores the tears out of me due to how long fighting one mob can take.  I already had 2 decks unlocked and quite a few other skills handy, I just don't like dying on a mission and then having to redo my favorite playstyle just to complete it, all for what?  More AP to change more builds?  Ok...what else is there to do in this supposed MMORPG?  I'll pass and enjoy GW2 where I am literally overwhelmed with things to do and I can pick 2 weapon setups and builds and play my way.  I too am on the OPs side.  Thinking about playing some Lotro again to hold me over to the 25th.

    hmmm interesting... I've never had issues with long fights in any areas and never had to completely remake another build.  Have you looked at your passives and your gear?  I was running QL 10 purple pvp gear  and my build main is Hammer/chaos  my passive took from all other trees to build overlapping damage, with dots, affliction, hinder, hinder procs etc,  the hardest mobs in the final areas would drop pretty quickly.  How much of your wheel did you have unlocked and your SP?  
    But in anycase I played the way I wanted and never really had to change a whole lot, TSW offers a lot of customizability, you just have to explore.

    I don't believe you,OR you just haven't gotten far enough into the game.  I started with a blade/elemental build and went for the ninja deck and was all about Penetration abilities.  Coming across certain mobs in Egypt that were immune to Penetration and required a magic build means I had to change my deck completely and have that magic stuff unlocked.  I did it and I just didn't enjoy it as much as others apparently do.  

    I also tried to roll some alts and was bored to death on my first few missions in Kingsmouth, I just didn't want to play an alt. To me, that's horrible for an MMO to engender.  Some may disagree and are one character players, that's fine.  I'm not and a great Alt game is one of my defining points to a great MMO.

    I can second Elocke on this. I was also palying dragon and going with the ninja deck. The combat is slow and the mobs he mentioned were a PITA. I didn't have  alot of points sunk into other builds by the time I ran into this scenario and let me tell you that going back to grind for AP was one of the determening factors that put a halt on my gameplay before the initial 30 days. I knew that the ninja build was a good damage dealing layout and that it took time to build up the pen/affliction for dots, but the fights were long and tediouse and not fun.  Instead of being upset I did start to sink points in different areas and go away from the deck, but the fights started taking longer than they should have. the game wasn't hard at all really, I was rarely in danger of dying from mobs unless I pulled multiple mobs. But I can attest to what others have said, sometimes the fights took long enough in a clusterfuck area that respawns were happening on top of me. 

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • BigRock411BigRock411 Member Posts: 299
    Originally posted by cronius77
    [mod edit]

    It seems to really bother you that people dont share the same view as you. 

    [mod edit]

  • LaromussLaromuss Member UncommonPosts: 331
    Originally posted by elocke
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by elocke

    The funny thing is, I could accept the challenge and unlock all builds and swap builds when I need to, I just don't find that fun in the slightest.  Hence why I quit 2 -3 weeks into the game and in the last few zones of Transylvania.  It's just not worth the effort and the combat bores the tears out of me due to how long fighting one mob can take.  I already had 2 decks unlocked and quite a few other skills handy, I just don't like dying on a mission and then having to redo my favorite playstyle just to complete it, all for what?  More AP to change more builds?  Ok...what else is there to do in this supposed MMORPG?  I'll pass and enjoy GW2 where I am literally overwhelmed with things to do and I can pick 2 weapon setups and builds and play my way.  I too am on the OPs side.  Thinking about playing some Lotro again to hold me over to the 25th.

    hmmm interesting... I've never had issues with long fights in any areas and never had to completely remake another build.  Have you looked at your passives and your gear?  I was running QL 10 purple pvp gear  and my build main is Hammer/chaos  my passive took from all other trees to build overlapping damage, with dots, affliction, hinder, hinder procs etc,  the hardest mobs in the final areas would drop pretty quickly.  How much of your wheel did you have unlocked and your SP?  
    But in anycase I played the way I wanted and never really had to change a whole lot, TSW offers a lot of customizability, you just have to explore.

    I don't believe you,OR you just haven't gotten far enough into the game.  I started with a blade/elemental build and went for the ninja deck and was all about Penetration abilities.  Coming across certain mobs in Egypt that were immune to Penetration and required a magic build means I had to change my deck completely and have that magic stuff unlocked.  I did it and I just didn't enjoy it as much as others apparently do.  

    I also tried to roll some alts and was bored to death on my first few missions in Kingsmouth, I just didn't want to play an alt. To me, that's horrible for an MMO to engender.  Some may disagree and are one character players, that's fine.  I'm not and a great Alt game is one of my defining points to a great MMO.

    don't care what you believe. you can go to my chronicle Laross on the TSW site look it up and you'll see my gear is purples and I've already been through every area, completed everything I needed to do before the game got boring since it was fairly easy once you figured out what to do.   When I finished btw I had 29million pax, all gear was QL10 purple and I had 3 purple signets.   After you get QL 10 and the signets you want there isn't much more to do.  I was also top 15 in PVP at the time.

    In the end all I did was farm the elite mobs in the final zones for signets and rare drops, and speed was the key to make it profitable and worth it.   

     

    http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Laross

  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Member RarePosts: 3,991

    I find the difficulty VERY refreshing.

     

    You can't truly have the highs, without having true lows. If you always win, how is that fun?

     

    Still, there are plenty of faceroll MMOs out there...hell, most of them are. I'm really happy I with TSW. I'm in City of the Sun God and the game just keeps getting better. I worked hard building and tweaking the hell out of my custom Shotgun/Blood build, and it's very rewarding to see it execute well.

    Joined - July 2004

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Member Posts: 991
    Originally posted by Laross

    don't care what you believe. you can go to my chronicle Laross on the TSW site look it up and you'll see my gear is purples and I've already been through every area, completed everything I needed to do before the game got boring since it was fairly easy once you figured out what to do.   When I finished btw I had 29million pax, all gear was QL10 purple and I had 3 purple signets.   After you get QL 10 and the signets you want there isn't much more to do.  I was also top 15 in PVP at the time.

    In the end all I did was farm the elite mobs in the final zones for signets and rare drops, and speed was the key to make it profitable and worth it.   

    http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Laross

    Just out of curiosity, if you had to guess, how many hours of playtime did it take for you to essentially beat the game?

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • LaromussLaromuss Member UncommonPosts: 331
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by Laross

    don't care what you believe. you can go to my chronicle Laross on the TSW site look it up and you'll see my gear is purples and I've already been through every area, completed everything I needed to do before the game got boring since it was fairly easy once you figured out what to do.   When I finished btw I had 29million pax, all gear was QL10 purple and I had 3 purple signets.   After you get QL 10 and the signets you want there isn't much more to do.  I was also top 15 in PVP at the time.

    In the end all I did was farm the elite mobs in the final zones for signets and rare drops, and speed was the key to make it profitable and worth it.   

    http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Laross

    Just out of curiosity, if you had to guess, how many hours of playtime did it take for you to essentially beat the game?

    I've had some time off for awhile so I went fairly fast in terms of doing quests.  I didnt' waste time on investigation ones too much, or any bugged ones, the key was I saved my tokens and bought them at the later zones to get the better gear that would get me through faster,  the further you get the easier it is to get AP, but PVP I did do a lot of since you have to grind that stuff to death.   Fusang for 1 week straight 14 hours a day to get all purple gear minus my weapon which i felt didn't need to be upgraded.  but overall a lot of time, if I had to guess a real time in played time it would be around 15 days total actual time.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by Laross

    don't care what you believe. you can go to my chronicle Laross on the TSW site look it up and you'll see my gear is purples and I've already been through every area, completed everything I needed to do before the game got boring since it was fairly easy once you figured out what to do.   When I finished btw I had 29million pax, all gear was QL10 purple and I had 3 purple signets.   After you get QL 10 and the signets you want there isn't much more to do.  I was also top 15 in PVP at the time.

    In the end all I did was farm the elite mobs in the final zones for signets and rare drops, and speed was the key to make it profitable and worth it.   

    http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Laross

    Just out of curiosity, if you had to guess, how many hours of playtime did it take for you to essentially beat the game?

    I've had some time off for awhile so I went fairly fast in terms of doing quests.  I didnt' waste time on investigation ones too much, or any bugged ones, the key was I saved my tokens and bought them at the later zones to get the better gear that would get me through faster,  the further you get the easier it is to get AP, but PVP I did do a lot of since you have to grind that stuff to death.   Fusang for 1 week straight 14 hours a day to get all purple gear minus my weapon which i felt didn't need to be upgraded.  but overall a lot of time, if I had to guess a real time in played time it would be around 15 days total actual time.

    You are not an "average" MMO player if you played 14 hours a day for 7 days straight, lol

    And you "didn't waste time on investigation quests too much" ? That's almost like playing GW2 and not wasting time on DE's too much...

     

    Your whole post echoes with "I rushed through the game". I'm not surprised that you quit, TSW is clearly not aimed at players like you. If you play any modern MMO in the same way as you tackled TSW, you will "finish" them all in the first month easily.

  • andypandyrandypandyr Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Originally posted by remyburke

    I find the difficulty VERY refreshing.

     

    You can't truly have the highs, without having true lows. If you always win, how is that fun?

     

    Still, there are plenty of faceroll MMOs out there...hell, most of them are. I'm really happy I with TSW. I'm in City of the Sun God and the game just keeps getting better. I worked hard building and tweaking the hell out of my custom Shotgun/Blood build, and it's very rewarding to see it execute well.

    I dont mind some difficulty in any Mmo and I played Everquest 1 for quite a few years and that game could be difficult at times but it was never Frustratingly difficult like the Secret World is at the moment , having to play Kingsmouth over and over just to get the gear you need for the next Zone is also quite tedious.

    Dont get me wrong I like most elements of the game a whole lot but Frustration with solo play and getting aggro every few minutes is not " refreshing " as you put it, to me.

    I will come back to it at some point though especially if the adjust the mob spawns ;)

  • gwei1984gwei1984 Member UncommonPosts: 413

    Edit: never mind

    Hodor!

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081

    I was excited about the TSW until I found it's all about story and video clips....Will never play it !

    THIS IS THE REVERSE OF AN MMO ( bottom line, you can dress it up, feed it, but at the end of the day, it makes it not an mmo )

     

    Hard would be good if it's an mmo  ( you know multi- player- online ).

     

     

    Geeeee.........Such crap thats coming out as of late is ridiculous !...........Thank GOD...........Guild Wars 2 finally got it right  to put things back on track of making an mmo.  In GW2 I'll already have a good working Guild and a long list of reliable friends to group with when things get hard.  All because it's an mmo !!..............And when I feel like soloing and enjoying a story, I'll play Skyrim.

  • BlackbrrdBlackbrrd Member Posts: 811
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by Laross

    don't care what you believe. you can go to my chronicle Laross on the TSW site look it up and you'll see my gear is purples and I've already been through every area, completed everything I needed to do before the game got boring since it was fairly easy once you figured out what to do.   When I finished btw I had 29million pax, all gear was QL10 purple and I had 3 purple signets.   After you get QL 10 and the signets you want there isn't much more to do.  I was also top 15 in PVP at the time.

    In the end all I did was farm the elite mobs in the final zones for signets and rare drops, and speed was the key to make it profitable and worth it.   

    http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Laross

    Just out of curiosity, if you had to guess, how many hours of playtime did it take for you to essentially beat the game?

    I've had some time off for awhile so I went fairly fast in terms of doing quests.  I didnt' waste time on investigation ones too much, or any bugged ones, the key was I saved my tokens and bought them at the later zones to get the better gear that would get me through faster,  the further you get the easier it is to get AP, but PVP I did do a lot of since you have to grind that stuff to death.   Fusang for 1 week straight 14 hours a day to get all purple gear minus my weapon which i felt didn't need to be upgraded.  but overall a lot of time, if I had to guess a real time in played time it would be around 15 days total actual time.

    You are not an "average" MMO player if you played 14 hours a day for 7 days straight, lol

    And you "didn't waste time on investigation quests too much" ? That's almost like playing GW2 and not wasting time on DE's too much...

     

    Your whole post echoes with "I rushed through the game". I'm not surprised that you quit, TSW is clearly not aimed at players like you. If you play any modern MMO in the same way as you tackled TSW, you will "finish" them all in the first month easily.

    I don't get your negativity SpottyGekko, he obviously had a great time with TSW playing it for over 360 hours. That's amazing value for money. That he got a bit burnt out of the game and doesn't want to subscribe (assumed by me) is something not really unexpected. ;)

  • DignaDigna Member UncommonPosts: 1,994

    There were a few harder 'nightmare' mobs up in Transylvania but otherwise it wasn't too bad and a lot of fun.  But once I got to the end...got bored of going backwards (and PvP never intrested me in TSW).

    I'll pop back in to the see the new content, probably but right now GW2 is so hooked in my mind I really have no other goals (gaming goals...I still live RL mostly ;P)

  • c-motc-mot Member UncommonPosts: 51

    i have mixed feelings about TSW. the quests are sometimes fun but most of the time its tedious and boring to fight your way to the quest items thru tons of mobs, that spawn just in time to give you the same experience on your way back out.

    of course its rewarding when you finish a hard quest. but most of the time its the kind of "thank god its over" feeling of release for me.

    could be my deck (AR/blood) where i can fight/heal thru nearly all content solo (hardly ever get below 80% health), but the combat with this is very boring (button mashing at its best 121314121314...) - and each fight lasts long. i just started a new build with pistol/fist with the hope to get a somewhat more dynamic combat.

    i had way more fun in GW2 because i found the quests/events itself were fun to participate and i enjoyed the combat much more (...and i died way more in GW2 than in TSW).

    in the end its a question of personal taste i guess.

     

  • ZefireZefire Member Posts: 676
    Originally posted by andypandyr

    There I've said it .. I dont mind a challenge but as a mostly solo play its just becoming frustrating .. dont know my arse from my Elbow call me a wimp ot whatever but bring back normal leveling for me .

    I've gone back to Lotro , as I have a life sub and really enjoying it  :-) Not sure if to get GW2 tho ..

    This game is for mature people that actually use their brain.Go to your wow or what ever other rail game u prefere.You dont belong here kid.

  • BlackbrrdBlackbrrd Member Posts: 811
    Originally posted by c-mot

    i have mixed feelings about TSW. the quests are sometimes fun but most of the time its tedious and boring to fight your way to the quest items thru tons of mobs, that spawn just in time to give you the same experience on your way back out.

    of course its rewarding when you finish a hard quest. but most of the time its the kind of "thank god its over" feeling of release for me.

    could be my deck (AR/blood) where i can fight/heal thru nearly all content solo (hardly ever get below 80% health), but the combat with this is very boring (button mashing at its best 121314121314...) - and each fight lasts long. i just started a new build with pistol/fist with the hope to get a somewhat more dynamic combat.

    i had way more fun in GW2 because i found the quests/events itself were fun to participate and i enjoyed the combat much more (...and i died way more in GW2 than in TSW).

    in the end its a question of personal taste i guess.

    AR/Blood are both healing weapons, so the slow combat where you don't die is basically the result of that. It would probably suit the people in this thread that are complaining about the game being too difficult. ;)

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,498
    Originally posted by Laross
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by Laross

    don't care what you believe. you can go to my chronicle Laross on the TSW site look it up and you'll see my gear is purples and I've already been through every area, completed everything I needed to do before the game got boring since it was fairly easy once you figured out what to do.   When I finished btw I had 29million pax, all gear was QL10 purple and I had 3 purple signets.   After you get QL 10 and the signets you want there isn't much more to do.  I was also top 15 in PVP at the time.

    In the end all I did was farm the elite mobs in the final zones for signets and rare drops, and speed was the key to make it profitable and worth it.   

    http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Laross

    Just out of curiosity, if you had to guess, how many hours of playtime did it take for you to essentially beat the game?

    I've had some time off for awhile so I went fairly fast in terms of doing quests.  I didnt' waste time on investigation ones too much, or any bugged ones, the key was I saved my tokens and bought them at the later zones to get the better gear that would get me through faster,  the further you get the easier it is to get AP, but PVP I did do a lot of since you have to grind that stuff to death.   Fusang for 1 week straight 14 hours a day to get all purple gear minus my weapon which i felt didn't need to be upgraded.  but overall a lot of time, if I had to guess a real time in played time it would be around 15 days total actual time.

    I see your problem right here.....  no reason to ever play a MMO that much, I can't imagine what title will ever keep you entertained.  Were you an old Lineage 2 player, that would have been right up your alley.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AlotAlot Member Posts: 1,948


    Originally posted by Zefire
    Originally posted by andypandyr There I've said it .. I dont mind a challenge but as a mostly solo play its just becoming frustrating .. dont know my arse from my Elbow call me a wimp ot whatever but bring back normal leveling for me . I've gone back to Lotro , as I have a life sub and really enjoying it  :-) Not sure if to get GW2 tho ..
    This game is for mature people that actually use their brain.Go to your wow or what ever other rail game u prefere.You dont belong here kid.

    Glad to see TSW has retained it's mature community one month after launch.

  • ThillianThillian Member UncommonPosts: 3,156

    If you can't see possible combination of various decks, you're really doing something wrong. There are combos for penetration builds, great focus build using finish the movement, chain builds, blaze builds afflictions builds etc, in fact I have not seen two identical DPSers so far in the end-game, and I'm talking about Nightmare modes. Tanking isn't really limited either, I've met a tank with 7.9k health in NMs yesterday using assault rifles (yes you've read it right) and chaos, and it was one of the best tanks I've met in game so far. I am a healer and had no trouble keeping him at his full health and his threat management was fantastic, especially during the Ur-Draug's veil phase.

    That just demonstrates that the wheel allows you very unique combinations, of course you can decide to just copy paste builds of someone else and then bitch how cookie cutter this game is, but that's your F*** problem and not a problem of the game.

     

    REALITY CHECK

  • SquiggieSquiggie Member Posts: 104
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    LOL, I know what you mean, sometimes I'm actually screaming at the computer with rage as I die yet again. (the cat goes running and hides)  image

    And this is a good thing.  No, seriously, I've gotten so complacent with these facerolling MMO's that I can play with only partial attention and still succeed.  It feels good to be challenged again, and I actually get a sense of accomplishment when I pull off yet another quest marked Hard or Very Hard, even if it requires cooperating with other players to make it happen. 

    In fact, I realize I'm going to have to work on improving my socialization and friend making skills if I want to smooth my way in this title, at times the content really is too much for a solo player, though sometimes you just need to take some time and rerun the current tier to get your gear up to snuff.

    Case in point, there was this one timed quest, where I had to kill 13 zombies in like 10 minutes.  I failed it like 3 times in a row, I just couldn't keep myself healthy enough during the fights, with regen time I kept falling short by 1 or 2 kills.

    So I went out and did more quests in the zone and got all of my gear up to QL 6 (was previously a blend of 4, 5 and a couple of 6's) and then went back and retried the quest and ocmpleted it the first time with almost 2 minutes to spare. (proving when solo, gear really can help)

     

    This x10!  I am loving the difficulty of this game.  I sometimes wish it was even a tad more difficult.  I also play mostly solo.

     

    Oh, and a tip for the regen slowness...go to London and buy some taco's!  :D

  • elockeelocke Member UncommonPosts: 4,335
    Originally posted by c-mot

    i have mixed feelings about TSW. the quests are sometimes fun but most of the time its tedious and boring to fight your way to the quest items thru tons of mobs, that spawn just in time to give you the same experience on your way back out.

    of course its rewarding when you finish a hard quest. but most of the time its the kind of "thank god its over" feeling of release for me.

    could be my deck (AR/blood) where i can fight/heal thru nearly all content solo (hardly ever get below 80% health), but the combat with this is very boring (button mashing at its best 121314121314...) - and each fight lasts long. i just started a new build with pistol/fist with the hope to get a somewhat more dynamic combat.

    i had way more fun in GW2 because i found the quests/events itself were fun to participate and i enjoyed the combat much more (...and i died way more in GW2 than in TSW).

    in the end its a question of personal taste i guess.

     

    Exactly.  In my opinion, if any part of a game makes you want to skip the content or makes you end up saying "Finally, thank goodness that's over!" then it has failed in game design.  It should be FUN to play. It should be FUN to wade through mobs on the way to and from not make you cringe when you get pulled out of sprint by a mob that's pretty far away.  SWTOR has this same problem.  I ended up trying to find all types of different paths around clumps of mobs because combat was so dull.

    In GW2, however, I actually enjoy each fight and purposely attack mobs on the way to and from things.  Did the same in WoW.  Because they make it FUN.  Seems to be a lost art form these days that only a few games understand.

  • andypandyrandypandyr Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Originally posted by Zefire
    Originally posted by andypandyr

    There I've said it .. I dont mind a challenge but as a mostly solo play its just becoming frustrating .. dont know my arse from my Elbow call me a wimp ot whatever but bring back normal leveling for me .

    I've gone back to Lotro , as I have a life sub and really enjoying it  :-) Not sure if to get GW2 tho ..

    This game is for mature people that actually use their brain.Go to your wow or what ever other rail game u prefere.You dont belong here kid.

    Wow your a shining example of " Mature community " ... try adding something constuctive to the thread instead of childish drivel ..

    Oh and Btw I'm probably old enough to be your Grandpa ;)

  • SircaSirca Member UncommonPosts: 110
    Originally posted by Zefire
    Originally posted by andypandyr

    There I've said it .. I dont mind a challenge but as a mostly solo play its just becoming frustrating .. dont know my arse from my Elbow call me a wimp ot whatever but bring back normal leveling for me .

    I've gone back to Lotro , as I have a life sub and really enjoying it  :-) Not sure if to get GW2 tho ..

    This game is for mature people that actually use their brain.Go to your wow or what ever other rail game u prefere.You dont belong here kid.

    I am glad I quit TSW, playing with bozo like you, no thanks.

  • elistrangeelistrange Member Posts: 157

    Secret World is NOT for everyone. It is not a mindless game. If you are not willing to scream, rage and get frustrated move on.

     

    Currently Play: ?
    Occasionally Play: Champions, Pirates of the Burning Sea, WOW, EVE ONLINE

  • ScypherothScypheroth Member Posts: 264

    this is a PRIME example of north american MMO players, sumthign is too hard they quit/dont like it....look at Sandbox FFA Full loot games for instance...

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