The comparison makes no sense. When you talk about a car, you talk about something very very expensive thats used for 2 reasons, 1 is to get to and from where you need, work school etc, the 2nd is as a social status symbol to those with more means. A video game is a form of entertainment where one invests alot of time into the character, but much more so in an MMO, hundreds of hours if the game is any good.
Only the type of player that scans sites like these for tips and tricks/general info will ever realistically see endgame in any of the major mmo's so to say we are the 5th tier is idiotic. If anything, we are the 1st tier as far as endgame and maybe 5th tier for console gaming...a guy who only levels to 50 in wow then quits to play COD with his buddys is not an MMO gamer.
The comparison is the general user vs the avid enthusiast. The former is almost always significantly larger than the latter, and the latter is almost always more knowledgeable about and more interested in the intricacies and details of the subject matter, as they use it and enjoy it on a finer and more granular level.
Your second paragraph, though, is pretty much what my post was referring to.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Replace 'MMOs' with 'Cars' and you can easily see the massive separation and disconnect between - the person that drives a car and - the person posting on his favorite car discussion site about why the classic carburetor is for real car enthusiasts while the modern electronic ignition is for people who just want to drive around without even bothering to understand the vehicle.
On mmorpg.com, a sizeable subset endorses the original (still best!) ignition system for their cars.
Yes, a good slap in the face with a wet herring is often in order.
He's not wearing his glove!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The comparison is the general user vs the avid enthusiast.
Are you proposing that all avid enthusiasts must be insular by nature or practice? Aristocratic automatically?
If I had to pick an overall tendency shared by the majority of users of this site, it'd have to be a tendency to over-analyze the living hell out of just about everything to do with an MMO. Way, way more than is healthy. That's their Major. They minored in cynical and negative and inexorable. Fifteen years of forum yackyack habit does that to people.
And damn it, I fell into the sweeping generality trap, too. Someone, please, help me get foot out of this thing.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
In a conversation with Kyleran not long ago, we had gotton on the topic of the MMORPG.com subset of the MMO community. One of the things we discussed was how entrenched, knowledgeable and invested this community is, and Ky suggested posting it to the boards because it seemed a concept worth considering when gauging the general MMO community's view of an issue or subject versus the views held here.
Most of the people that post on MMORPG.com aren't typical MMO gamers and it seems we often forget that.
When looking at the tiers of players, there's the the big huge tier of people that are playing a game or online game. Those people refer to the game by name and probably never mention 'MMO' or even know it is an 'MMO'.
The MMORPG.com reader is about 5 or so tiers down. It is a much less sizable subgroup of people that:
specifically identify with MMOs
have their own criteria for what an MMO should be (and are often upset when that criteria is violated)
have an interest in the mechanics and design of MMOs
have registered on a site to discuss MMOs... at ridiculous length
Replace 'MMOs' with 'Cars' and you can easily see the massive separation and disconnect between - the person that drives a car and - the person posting on his favorite car discussion site about why the classic carburetor is for real car enthusiasts while the modern electronic ignition is for people who just want to drive around without even bothering to understand the vehicle.
Often we speak for the greater group, assuming that if it is important to us, it is important to the majority of MMO gamers. MMORPG.com posters (or any other entrenched, knowledgable and invested group) are, in many cases and on many topics, distinctly different in their priorities and concerns than the majority of MMO gamers. When discussing what MMO gamers want, like, or prefer it seems a good idea to take a step back and try to gauge if this is of concern or importance to the average gamer or just this subset.
Do you agree or am I just off my rocker?
It's worth discussing but good luck getting a factual conclusion. No one will be interested in making scientific study of this, if you're lucky you'll get a mass amount of logical opinions / suppositions.
If you substitute the analogy with cellphones instead of cars, what happens?
Originally posted by Amaranthar Has any game since WoW released and not lost large percentages after the first month?
Acting like it's just a few "whiners" that visit a single message board is nothing more than whitewashing a very obvious problem with the industry.
One needs to ask why these players are leaving so soon after release. Is it because the game sucks? Could be. Is it because a new game just released? Maybe. Is it because something happened in their real life and they are unable to play? Hopefully not, but a possibility. Is it because they played through the whole game already? This is the one I usually look at closest.
Most of the games released now take very little time and effort getting to max level. Even casual players are accomplishing this in a matter of weeks. From what I've read on this site, many games lack an in-depth "end game" of any sort.
I think (my opinion) that players leave after a couple of months because they "beat the game" and there is not much left for them to do. I could very well be wrong, but that's my take on it
The part marked in yellow is why I think new games subs drop so quickly (for the most part). It seems that for the mjority of people that are not interested in end-game raiding, leveling to max level and doing the various dungeons once or twice equates to "beating the game" and it's time to move on. Since new games are making leveling faster than ever, their game only lasts for a month or two for these types of players.
The comparison is the general user vs the avid enthusiast.
Are you proposing that all avid enthusiasts must be insular by nature or practice? Aristocratic automatically?
I guess by trying to further clarify it, I'm further confusing it. I didn't mean to state or imply they were insular at all, rather they often have a more detailed familarity and are more invested than the average person is.
No hierarchy was meant or implied either.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Trying to save a failing industry by pointing out that the complainers are only a few people, when the masses are indeed leaving, just doesn't work.
Are the masses indeed leaving?
The mmo audience seems to be made of:
Early adopters or "pre-wow" plaeyrs
WoW players who dont' know much about mmo's other than WoW OR they are looking for WoW 2.0
Gamers who just like games and jump from one game to another for something new.
later mmo adopters (WoW and after) who don't fall under the "die hard WoW" fanbase but who discovered mmo's and all of the different games when the industry grew.
Each one of these groups has different desires and needs and in many cases there are very real reasons particular to that group that would be reason enough to have them leave a game.
This is coupled with all the different reasons why one would leave a particular game in the first place.
What often happens is someone makes a bold statement that a certain game failed because of "X" when if one actually looked at all the facts their would be "Y & Z" reasons.
For instance "Age of Conan failed because it was a themepark" when most purchasers knew this or didn't care but wanted to play in the Conan universe only to find many bugs, uneven leveling, 1-20 experience that dwarfed the rest of the game play, not enough content through the whole experience up to and including "end game".
They essentially want to say "Correlation proves Causation" when it's just not true.
Has any game since WoW released and not lost large percentages after the first month?
Acting like it's just a few "whiners" that visit a single message board is nothing more than whitewashing a very obvious problem with the industry.
again you have to look deeper. This is the whole correlation does not equal causality thing.
Name a game that has launched since wow that didn't have their own specific issues. Top that off that WoW is it's own special little snowflake that not only gathered curious mmo players but developed the interest in "wow" in non-gamers/mmo players.
Take wow out of the equation and we see games that all have about the same numbers depending upon general popularity. niche games having 60k to 90k players, most popular having 250k to maybe 500k at this point.
Then there is the fly in the ointment that are the wow players who are looking for wow 2.0, showing up enmasse in other games, seeing that they don't offer all that wow offers and leaving.
Also, as i mentioned earlier, you have games taht attract a great amount of people and they have huge bugs, not enough end game content, and essentially are not what people thought they would be.
But I already said this in my first post. They aren't leaving the genre (except maybe old vets - to use a term) but are bouncing around for various reasons, whether those reasons are that "they are just looking for the next best thing) or that the games that are being put out are't what they should be so they go to the next one.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's worth discussing but good luck getting a factual conclusion. No one will be interested in making scientific study of this, if you're lucky you'll get a mass amount of logical opinions / suppositions.
If interesting debate and discussion with fellow posters is its only result then I consider it a great thread.
"If you substitute the analogy with cellphones instead of cars, what happens?"
I am jealous of you now. If this were Facebook, I'd Share your post. I may even still do that anyway. If there was a way to, I would auction your post on eBay and bid on it myself just so that I could give it a AAA+++ WILL BUY AGAIN. I am filled with an envy you cannot imagine.
One could only ask that question if they've never had to suffer through the praise-laden or defensive ramblings of an Apple fanatic. Unless, of course, you are an Apple fanatic, then I can see how the answer would be a mystery to you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The part marked in yellow is why I think new games subs drop so quickly (for the most part).
Yep, I think so too.
The problem, to me, is that the industry fails to produce games that are similar to (x) without being almost identical to (x). Familiarity breeds MMOLocusts.
Not that it's entirely their fault, we do draw them a razor-thin line and dare them to walk it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
They essentially want to say "Correlation proves Causation" when it's just not true.
This line sums up about 90% of discussion in these forums. Should put this in my signature, I think it should really be considered when we make bold assumptions about why games failed, or why games succeeded. Goes back to some of my other beefs with people wanting single simple answers for REALLY complicated questions. You could write a 10-page report on why a certain MMO failed, trimming it down to "it didn't have X" is really a laughable notion.
And Lokto try not to defend the analogy too much, if analogies were exactly the same then they would cease to be an anology in the first place. It's supposed to bring perspective (which I felt your did well) and not be put side by side and gone over with a fine-tooth comb.
But I do agree with your post, and the influx of indie MMOs has me excited, I just wonder if we are actually ready to settle down with another MMO. My analogies have always likened MMOs to having girlfriends (or boyfriends :P) and I'm not so certain that the people on these forums really want to settle down and have MMO-kids, I think they still want to play the field and find faults in their games because THEY are not ready to commit.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
And Lokto try not to defend the analogy too much, if analogies were exactly the same then they would cease to be an anology in the first place. It's supposed to bring perspective (which I felt your did well) and not be put side by side and gone over with a fine-tooth comb.
Agreed. That's why my last reply about the analogy was more to amuse myself than to give any kind of actual answer. Thanks for the advice, btw.
I'm also looking forward to the newer indie projects. I just want one... ONE... to take the bold approach of under-promise and over-deliver. I think the overpromising and failure to deliver contributes as much to their demise as the lack of polish and bugs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Trying to save a failing industry by pointing out that the complainers are only a few people, when the masses are indeed leaving, just doesn't work.
Are the masses indeed leaving?
The mmo audience seems to be made of:
Early adopters or "pre-wow" plaeyrs
WoW players who dont' know much about mmo's other than WoW OR they are looking for WoW 2.0
Gamers who just like games and jump from one game to another for something new.
later mmo adopters (WoW and after) who don't fall under the "die hard WoW" fanbase but who discovered mmo's and all of the different games when the industry grew.
Each one of these groups has different desires and needs and in many cases there are very real reasons particular to that group that would be reason enough to have them leave a game.
This is coupled with all the different reasons why one would leave a particular game in the first place.
What often happens is someone makes a bold statement that a certain game failed because of "X" when if one actually looked at all the facts their would be "Y & Z" reasons.
For instance "Age of Conan failed because it was a themepark" when most purchasers knew this or didn't care but wanted to play in the Conan universe only to find many bugs, uneven leveling, 1-20 experience that dwarfed the rest of the game play, not enough content through the whole experience up to and including "end game".
They essentially want to say "Correlation proves Causation" when it's just not true.
Has any game since WoW released and not lost large percentages after the first month?
Acting like it's just a few "whiners" that visit a single message board is nothing more than whitewashing a very obvious problem with the industry.
Has any game since wow? Did you start mmorpgs with wow? Because that trend existed long before wow.
While they may not get $60.00 per "box" for people coming to the game, I doubt that many new people are coming to the game and therefore not a big lose.
If they can get it up to 2,000,000 then they can start up the sale of content and goodies to a higher degree.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I'm also looking forward to the newer indie projects. I just want one... ONE... to take the bold approach of under-promise and over-deliver. I think the overpromising and failure to deliver contributes as much to their demise as the lack of polish and bugs.
Overdelivering is probably difficult. Hold a system in reserve out of sight of the beta players?
Not in this day and age.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I do like the car analogy. I certainly fall into the "enthusiast" category. It's one of the reasons I like the RPG genre, they lend themselves well to analysis.
Unfortunately, I know my views of a "fun" game are in the ultra minority. Discussing mmorpg's has become more fun than actually playing them.
My outlet has become writing my own single player RPG.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by Amaranthar Has any game since WoW released and not lost large percentages after the first month?
Acting like it's just a few "whiners" that visit a single message board is nothing more than whitewashing a very obvious problem with the industry.
One needs to ask why these players are leaving so soon after release. Is it because the game sucks? Could be. Is it because a new game just released? Maybe. Is it because something happened in their real life and they are unable to play? Hopefully not, but a possibility. Is it because they played through the whole game already? This is the one I usually look at closest.
Most of the games released now take very little time and effort getting to max level. Even casual players are accomplishing this in a matter of weeks. From what I've read on this site, many games lack an in-depth "end game" of any sort.
I think (my opinion) that players leave after a couple of months because they "beat the game" and there is not much left for them to do. I could very well be wrong, but that's my take on it
Or played through enough of it and start getting that "I've done this before" feeling.
My 40 man raiding days are over. It was fun while it lasted but I'm not doing it anymore. Combine that with the fact that I detest arenas and battlegrounds, once I hit max level I'm left with nothing to do on that character. So it's either re-roll or move on. I usually choose the latter.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by dave6660 Or played through enough of it and start getting that "I've done this before" feeling.My 40 man raiding days are over. It was fun while it lasted but I'm not doing it anymore. Combine that with the fact that I detest arenas and battlegrounds, once I hit max level I'm left with nothing to do on that character. So it's either re-roll or move on. I usually choose the latter.
Same here. End Game today usually IS the end of the game to me, after a few alt re-rolls
The "I've done this before" feeling does seem to hit with more and more frequency in games, I must admit.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
By default, I assume I'm a lone eccentric in whatever room I find myself in
That said, just because we think about these subjects to the extent that we feel confident arguing the finer details of design does not automatically mean that our tastes are different from more detached gamers - we're just more consciously aware of what makes us like or dislike a feature or style, can more quickly see why certain design choices were made.
On the other hand, I know I can go read the beta forums for a specific game and be blown away by the debates over the 1 or 2% bonuses to one ability or another where people have such a deep understanding of the theorycraft of a particular system that they can simulate out the whole metagame in their heads with confidence.
By default, I assume I'm a lone eccentric in whatever room I find myself in
That said, just because we think about these subjects to the extent that we feel confident arguing the finer details of design does not automatically mean that our tastes are different from more detached gamers - we're just more consciously aware of what makes us like or dislike a feature or style, can more quickly see why certain design choices were made.
On the other hand, I know I can go read the beta forums for a specific game and be blown away by the debates over the 1 or 2% bonuses to one ability or another where people have such a deep understanding of the theorycraft of a particular system that they can simulate out the whole metagame in their heads with confidence.
Several years ago, at PAX West, I atended an NC Soft party.
I ended up speaking with two Guild Wars players (apparently there were only a few Lineage 2 players and I just never found them).
One of them knew so much about guild wars, every stat, every mob placement, which bosses had which abilities, essentially every single detail about everything that I had to think the guy was one of their developers. Which he wasn't.
There are some people out there who are crazy scary abotu the details.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
My 40 man raiding days are over. It was fun while it lasted but I'm not doing it anymore. Combine that with the fact that I detest arenas and battlegrounds, once I hit max level I'm left with nothing to do on that character. So it's either re-roll or move on. I usually choose the latter.
I vote for "move on". There are so many games out there that there is simply no reason to stick to one.
I think OP has a point with the car analogy. However, I still feel that a good game that is appreciated by the enthusiast, more often than not will still be greatly appreciated by the average gamer.
For example, the lack of an auction house creates depth to trading. I understand it completely, but like you said, I don't care about it. If the game is about slaying monsters its that it has to focus on. Everything else is more or less an inconvenience.
True. There is one thing though.
Mmorpg developers often feed community with posts, blogs, and various information about crafting and economy and even sometimes advertise it.
Then they provide this feature as some totally primitve, meaningless thing.
That's why some part of playerbase have every right to be angry.
If game is 'about slaying monsters' then it should be communicated honestly with "our mmorg is mainly about combat and fun, we focus on it and other things are just for little distraction and not important or rich features".
Most companies don't do that and then part of playerbase have every right to bash non-combat things.
Because which mmorpg honestly said that game is about slaying monsters almost exclusively?
Without that you cannot say 'if game is about slaying monsters' because WHO would decide that?
Me? You? Jon from Alaska? Mark from Czech Republic?
Mmorpg developers try to please too wide playerbase and because mmorpg crowd is not fresh but seasoned as majority already played some mmorpg in past, be it WoW or be it UO or be it some asian f2p game.
Yet they still try to create game by going same design like mmorpg's would be still this 'new fresh exciting thing' that could group wide variety of diffrent players for long-peroid of time becasue they would be willing to go on compromises cause this mmorpg would be so new, exciting and diffrent experience.
Well mmorpg's are not new, exceptional experience anymore that's why most of 'wide-net' mmorpg's fail to keep their playerbase playing for long time peroids.
You let your bias show in the red there. Combat features are just as rich as non-combat features.
But anyway. Its not common to see companies doing that. Only thing that comes to my mind was when, at one point, Arenanet stated their crafting would be "robust" strongly hinting it wouldn't be the main focus. Who would want to deter potential customers when, lets face it, many just look at the feature list and not much else.
To me, a feature list alone is not enough to describe a game, not by a long shot, because to be on the list doesn't yet tell me anything about how said feature is implemented. Many wishlists and suggestions on this forum list things like crafting, exploration etc. but they don't go into detail how they should be made and how the listed features interact and complement each other. Those lists come with a huge amount of implicit expectations that likely are different from player to player too.
Then there are those, who only rate the game by the length of the list -> longer is better.
You mistunderstood me.
I never said that combat cannot be rich feature nor I graded them by more rich or less rich.
I was writing that crafting and non-combat as made as not rich features, like side-development.
I was just adressing that having non-combat features weak or not existant is ok IF game devs and marketting clearly states that and not try to 'blink an eye' to crafters, explorers and other players who don't put combat first to lure them as well.
Problem is that mmorpg nowadays promise too much and fail to deliver.
I mean nobody expect crafting and many non-combat thing from Call of Duty right?
Thing is Call of Duty is not promising anything in that regard.
Make mmorpg that focus on combat, make no promises in other deparmants and then it is very much ok if it does not provide that features or provide lack-luster version of them.
Make promises about world, immersive feature wide experience, say that this will be experience for all sort of players, etc and then provide game that all meaningful things revolve around combat = face well deserved shitstorm.
If you don't like incovneniances because for you mmorpg is all about combat - by all means you should have mmorpg's like that for you. You should have plenty of them. Propably most of mmorpg's or mmo's should be like that.
IF they are solely about slaying monsters. Not all mmorpg's should be ONLY about slaying monsters. And even if they are it should be clearly 'said'. Nowadays many mmorpg's are promsing something else.
---------
For 'wish-lists' there were many topics and posts with how should be implemented as well. I remember even one or two my own posts with propositions HOW said features should look like.
----------------
This is main problem for mmorpg's nowadays. There are many types of mmorpg players nowadays. Many of them know what they want or at least think they know.
You want to play a game about slaying monsters and everything else in incovenience more or less for you.
I want to play game that is build to mimick some fictional world in a simplified gamey sense, that will have strong combat and strong non-combat elements.
Making a game that will be satisfying for both of us is propably close to zero. Many of your inconveniences is my game.
Many of your conveniance is trivalization and boredom for me.
My wanted features are inconvenience and boredom for you.
And so on so on.
Still game companies try over and over again to make a game that will be at least INITIALLY attractive for both of us.
Kinda what stoppoed me from playing mmorpg's, among few other things.
Why do I care if something is important to the 'average gamer'?
Comparing MMORPGs to cars is just wrong. Video games are an experience that a few to use actually to depart life. For some of us, actual life is just a joke, something that thousands of years of men have undergone, toiling or doing nothing, but still with no real way to convincingly escape reality. Now video games have offered this for only a quarter of a century and yet there is no comparison; it completely puts down the old ways of mysticism and fantasy novels. Most will never grasp this, just as most are not philosophers or mystics. Again why should I care about the 'average gamer' when I am up here sailing on the clouds? No mystic has ever cared about the common man except to treat him kindly and be of little use to him so that he can go back to doing what he was doing. Thankfully I am not the 'MMORPG audience', as MMMORPGs today are complete shit. But since gaming evolution ended on a non sequitour wit hMMORPGs I do often revisit the genre.
Your analogy isn't quite right because the car person is showing they may have actual knowledge of how the systems in the car work and how to get the most out of them. Where as most people on these boards are utterly clueless to the real systems inside a game, how they work, how to get the most out of them, and how "simple" it is to "just add this one thing" to a game.
A better analogy would be comparing these forums users to those who hang around on movie sites commenting on the movies they like and don't like. There you will also see a lack of knowledge and many quotes about how the soon to be released movie will be the best ever followed shortly after release by the same person claiming they ruined the whole movie and that they suck.
This is a site of people who are big fans of the MMO genre, not necessarily people who have a deep understanding and knowledge of MMO. Hell you'll see people comment on how a game did something none had ever done before and some MMO 10 years ago did the same thing.
Comments
The comparison is the general user vs the avid enthusiast. The former is almost always significantly larger than the latter, and the latter is almost always more knowledgeable about and more interested in the intricacies and details of the subject matter, as they use it and enjoy it on a finer and more granular level.
Your second paragraph, though, is pretty much what my post was referring to.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
He's not wearing his glove!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Are you proposing that all avid enthusiasts must be insular by nature or practice? Aristocratic automatically?
If I had to pick an overall tendency shared by the majority of users of this site, it'd have to be a tendency to over-analyze the living hell out of just about everything to do with an MMO. Way, way more than is healthy. That's their Major. They minored in cynical and negative and inexorable. Fifteen years of forum yackyack habit does that to people.
And damn it, I fell into the sweeping generality trap, too. Someone, please, help me get foot out of this thing.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It's worth discussing but good luck getting a factual conclusion. No one will be interested in making scientific study of this, if you're lucky you'll get a mass amount of logical opinions / suppositions.
If you substitute the analogy with cellphones instead of cars, what happens?
The part marked in yellow is why I think new games subs drop so quickly (for the most part). It seems that for the mjority of people that are not interested in end-game raiding, leveling to max level and doing the various dungeons once or twice equates to "beating the game" and it's time to move on. Since new games are making leveling faster than ever, their game only lasts for a month or two for these types of players.
I guess by trying to further clarify it, I'm further confusing it. I didn't mean to state or imply they were insular at all, rather they often have a more detailed familarity and are more invested than the average person is.
No hierarchy was meant or implied either.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Good. Subsequent mass-psychoanalysis withdrawn :and relieved:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
again you have to look deeper. This is the whole correlation does not equal causality thing.
Name a game that has launched since wow that didn't have their own specific issues. Top that off that WoW is it's own special little snowflake that not only gathered curious mmo players but developed the interest in "wow" in non-gamers/mmo players.
Take wow out of the equation and we see games that all have about the same numbers depending upon general popularity. niche games having 60k to 90k players, most popular having 250k to maybe 500k at this point.
Then there is the fly in the ointment that are the wow players who are looking for wow 2.0, showing up enmasse in other games, seeing that they don't offer all that wow offers and leaving.
Also, as i mentioned earlier, you have games taht attract a great amount of people and they have huge bugs, not enough end game content, and essentially are not what people thought they would be.
But I already said this in my first post. They aren't leaving the genre (except maybe old vets - to use a term) but are bouncing around for various reasons, whether those reasons are that "they are just looking for the next best thing) or that the games that are being put out are't what they should be so they go to the next one.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If interesting debate and discussion with fellow posters is its only result then I consider it a great thread.
"If you substitute the analogy with cellphones instead of cars, what happens?"
I am jealous of you now. If this were Facebook, I'd Share your post. I may even still do that anyway. If there was a way to, I would auction your post on eBay and bid on it myself just so that I could give it a AAA+++ WILL BUY AGAIN. I am filled with an envy you cannot imagine.
One could only ask that question if they've never had to suffer through the praise-laden or defensive ramblings of an Apple fanatic. Unless, of course, you are an Apple fanatic, then I can see how the answer would be a mystery to you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yep, I think so too.
The problem, to me, is that the industry fails to produce games that are similar to (x) without being almost identical to (x). Familiarity breeds MMOLocusts.
Not that it's entirely their fault, we do draw them a razor-thin line and dare them to walk it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
This line sums up about 90% of discussion in these forums. Should put this in my signature, I think it should really be considered when we make bold assumptions about why games failed, or why games succeeded. Goes back to some of my other beefs with people wanting single simple answers for REALLY complicated questions. You could write a 10-page report on why a certain MMO failed, trimming it down to "it didn't have X" is really a laughable notion.
And Lokto try not to defend the analogy too much, if analogies were exactly the same then they would cease to be an anology in the first place. It's supposed to bring perspective (which I felt your did well) and not be put side by side and gone over with a fine-tooth comb.
But I do agree with your post, and the influx of indie MMOs has me excited, I just wonder if we are actually ready to settle down with another MMO. My analogies have always likened MMOs to having girlfriends (or boyfriends :P) and I'm not so certain that the people on these forums really want to settle down and have MMO-kids, I think they still want to play the field and find faults in their games because THEY are not ready to commit.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Agreed. That's why my last reply about the analogy was more to amuse myself than to give any kind of actual answer.
Thanks for the advice, btw.
I'm also looking forward to the newer indie projects. I just want one... ONE... to take the bold approach of under-promise and over-deliver. I think the overpromising and failure to deliver contributes as much to their demise as the lack of polish and bugs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Has any game since wow? Did you start mmorpgs with wow? Because that trend existed long before wow.
While they may not get $60.00 per "box" for people coming to the game, I doubt that many new people are coming to the game and therefore not a big lose.
If they can get it up to 2,000,000 then they can start up the sale of content and goodies to a higher degree.
Storyline isn't going to be the selling point.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Overdelivering is probably difficult. Hold a system in reserve out of sight of the beta players?
Not in this day and age.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I do like the car analogy. I certainly fall into the "enthusiast" category. It's one of the reasons I like the RPG genre, they lend themselves well to analysis.
Unfortunately, I know my views of a "fun" game are in the ultra minority. Discussing mmorpg's has become more fun than actually playing them.
My outlet has become writing my own single player RPG.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Or played through enough of it and start getting that "I've done this before" feeling.
My 40 man raiding days are over. It was fun while it lasted but I'm not doing it anymore. Combine that with the fact that I detest arenas and battlegrounds, once I hit max level I'm left with nothing to do on that character. So it's either re-roll or move on. I usually choose the latter.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
The "I've done this before" feeling does seem to hit with more and more frequency in games, I must admit.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
By default, I assume I'm a lone eccentric in whatever room I find myself in
That said, just because we think about these subjects to the extent that we feel confident arguing the finer details of design does not automatically mean that our tastes are different from more detached gamers - we're just more consciously aware of what makes us like or dislike a feature or style, can more quickly see why certain design choices were made.
On the other hand, I know I can go read the beta forums for a specific game and be blown away by the debates over the 1 or 2% bonuses to one ability or another where people have such a deep understanding of the theorycraft of a particular system that they can simulate out the whole metagame in their heads with confidence.
Several years ago, at PAX West, I atended an NC Soft party.
I ended up speaking with two Guild Wars players (apparently there were only a few Lineage 2 players and I just never found them).
One of them knew so much about guild wars, every stat, every mob placement, which bosses had which abilities, essentially every single detail about everything that I had to think the guy was one of their developers. Which he wasn't.
There are some people out there who are crazy scary abotu the details.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I vote for "move on". There are so many games out there that there is simply no reason to stick to one.
I think OP has a point with the car analogy. However, I still feel that a good game that is appreciated by the enthusiast, more often than not will still be greatly appreciated by the average gamer.
You mistunderstood me.
I never said that combat cannot be rich feature nor I graded them by more rich or less rich.
I was writing that crafting and non-combat as made as not rich features, like side-development.
I was just adressing that having non-combat features weak or not existant is ok IF game devs and marketting clearly states that and not try to 'blink an eye' to crafters, explorers and other players who don't put combat first to lure them as well.
Problem is that mmorpg nowadays promise too much and fail to deliver.
I mean nobody expect crafting and many non-combat thing from Call of Duty right?
Thing is Call of Duty is not promising anything in that regard.
Make mmorpg that focus on combat, make no promises in other deparmants and then it is very much ok if it does not provide that features or provide lack-luster version of them.
Make promises about world, immersive feature wide experience, say that this will be experience for all sort of players, etc and then provide game that all meaningful things revolve around combat = face well deserved shitstorm.
If you don't like incovneniances because for you mmorpg is all about combat - by all means you should have mmorpg's like that for you. You should have plenty of them. Propably most of mmorpg's or mmo's should be like that.
IF they are solely about slaying monsters. Not all mmorpg's should be ONLY about slaying monsters. And even if they are it should be clearly 'said'. Nowadays many mmorpg's are promsing something else.
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For 'wish-lists' there were many topics and posts with how should be implemented as well. I remember even one or two my own posts with propositions HOW said features should look like.
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This is main problem for mmorpg's nowadays. There are many types of mmorpg players nowadays. Many of them know what they want or at least think they know.
You want to play a game about slaying monsters and everything else in incovenience more or less for you.
I want to play game that is build to mimick some fictional world in a simplified gamey sense, that will have strong combat and strong non-combat elements.
Making a game that will be satisfying for both of us is propably close to zero. Many of your inconveniences is my game.
Many of your conveniance is trivalization and boredom for me.
My wanted features are inconvenience and boredom for you.
And so on so on.
Still game companies try over and over again to make a game that will be at least INITIALLY attractive for both of us.
Kinda what stoppoed me from playing mmorpg's, among few other things.
ROTFLOL!!!!! Classic
Why do I care if something is important to the 'average gamer'?
Comparing MMORPGs to cars is just wrong. Video games are an experience that a few to use actually to depart life. For some of us, actual life is just a joke, something that thousands of years of men have undergone, toiling or doing nothing, but still with no real way to convincingly escape reality. Now video games have offered this for only a quarter of a century and yet there is no comparison; it completely puts down the old ways of mysticism and fantasy novels. Most will never grasp this, just as most are not philosophers or mystics. Again why should I care about the 'average gamer' when I am up here sailing on the clouds? No mystic has ever cared about the common man except to treat him kindly and be of little use to him so that he can go back to doing what he was doing. Thankfully I am not the 'MMORPG audience', as MMMORPGs today are complete shit. But since gaming evolution ended on a non sequitour wit hMMORPGs I do often revisit the genre.
Your analogy isn't quite right because the car person is showing they may have actual knowledge of how the systems in the car work and how to get the most out of them. Where as most people on these boards are utterly clueless to the real systems inside a game, how they work, how to get the most out of them, and how "simple" it is to "just add this one thing" to a game.
A better analogy would be comparing these forums users to those who hang around on movie sites commenting on the movies they like and don't like. There you will also see a lack of knowledge and many quotes about how the soon to be released movie will be the best ever followed shortly after release by the same person claiming they ruined the whole movie and that they suck.
This is a site of people who are big fans of the MMO genre, not necessarily people who have a deep understanding and knowledge of MMO. Hell you'll see people comment on how a game did something none had ever done before and some MMO 10 years ago did the same thing.