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Who we are among the MMO audience
Loktofeit
Member RarePosts: 14,247
In a conversation with Kyleran not long ago, we had gotton on the topic of the MMORPG.com subset of the MMO community. One of the things we discussed was how entrenched, knowledgeable and invested this community is, and Ky suggested posting it to the boards because it seemed a concept worth considering when gauging the general MMO community's view of an issue or subject versus the views held here.
Most of the people that post on MMORPG.com aren't typical MMO gamers and it seems we often forget that.
When looking at the tiers of players, there's the the big huge tier of people that are playing a game or online game. Those people refer to the game by name and probably never mention 'MMO' or even know it is an 'MMO'.
The MMORPG.com reader is about 5 or so tiers down. It is a much less sizable subgroup of people that:
- specifically identify with MMOs
- have their own criteria for what an MMO should be (and are often upset when that criteria is violated)
- have an interest in the mechanics and design of MMOs
- have registered on a site to discuss MMOs... at ridiculous length
Replace 'MMOs' with 'Cars' and you can easily see the massive separation and disconnect between
- the person that drives a car
and
- the person posting on his favorite car discussion site about why the classic carburetor is for real car enthusiasts while the modern electronic ignition is for people who just want to drive around without even bothering to understand the vehicle.
Often we speak for the greater group, assuming that if it is important to us, it is important to the majority of MMO gamers. MMORPG.com posters (or any other entrenched, knowledgable and invested group) are, in many cases and on many topics, distinctly different in their priorities and concerns than the majority of MMO gamers. When discussing what MMO gamers want, like, or prefer it seems a good idea to take a step back and try to gauge if this is of concern or importance to the average gamer or just this subset.
Do you agree or am I just off my rocker? 
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Very interesting topic I'd say, I'd love to have some real satisfaction metrics about the mmo crowd, outside of forum discussion.
I'll search the web when I'll have time, there might some kind of report somewhere, for some mmo, at some time.
edit : Sorry lol, I just realized how silly the hope of having one studio releasing satisfaction metrics over subscription numbers is.
- "Hey, investors ! look ! So we have 3 million subs this month, but 2 millions unsatisfied customers !"
It will remain a mystery I'm afraid.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
i used to hang around alot more at a similar site called rpgdot.com but that site died so here i am
i agree w your analogy of different car interests
EQ2 fan sites
Holy cr@p. You made an accurate analogy. On the internet. On the MMORPG forums. I feel like I've just seen Bigfoot.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It is just natural to judge upon prior experience so if you are tightened up with your community or environment, you may become less susceptible to anything outside.
Yaeh I agree. . I think that is why there is so much heated passion here. . SWTOR vs. WoW. . Ford vs. whatever. It is a decent analogy.
The only flaw is that most people that I know require a car for daily functions like getting to work etc. MMOs are much more a preference so people that play them tend to have a greater intererest than the average person who "uses" a car to get to something else. the MMO is the goal and focus.
Having said that. . there is a growing base of "MMO" players who are playing MMOs just because they happen to have that structure and they think they like the content. Many games are multi-player now and so you get the argument , even here, that Diablo 3 is an MMO.
We ARE like the old guys hanging around the car shop compaining about things that most people don't care about. The casual player that is. I am becoming more of a casual player myself. Interesting post. . not quite an accurate analogy in my opinion but it gets the point across.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
1, careful of that Kyleran, he once shot a man for snoring in his sleep...
2, bingo
3, nope, spot on.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Very well said. Too often posters simply dismiss the objective data if it contradicts their views. For example, World of Warcraft is a great game, the sales numbers prove that. No matter how much you hate it yourself, it has done many things right and many people are entertained by playing it.
Also, it is silly how some posters imply that their preferred style of MMOs require a "refined taste", like its some form of higher art or some such. That somehow "the common rabble" can't understand the intricacies and nuances of their game.
It is quite amusing to watch at times, but not as much as knocking them off their high horse.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
These two quotes are also spot on...
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
We're the 1% ...
I agree with the general notion, but the problem with this is that while data is always objective, the interpretation is not. And what people throw around here is always the interpretation that suits them, usually spiced with lovely terms like 'obvious', 'clearly', 'common sense' etc.
Perhaps attaching elitism is incorrect, but the fact is some MMO's such as EVE have mechanics, intracacies and nuances that the typical gamer either can't or doesn't want to master.
I'm seeing this with TSW right now, the skill wheel can actually be quite complicated, and putting together the right build for the right situation can really take some thought, but clearly some folks don't grasp this, or they do but don't want to be bothered with it.
And there's really nothing wrong with someone taking a little bit of pride in mastering something, even if its only MMO game mechanics such as learning how to make boatloads of ISK when many others are unable to.
Now back to the OP, I did agree with Lokto back when he first brought it up, the poster here really don't represent the typical gamer nor their desires, so a developer really couldn't use what we want as reasonable feedback if trying to build a popular, and broadly selling MMO, which sadly most investors are insisting they build for.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Trying to save a failing industry by pointing out that the complainers are only a few people, when the masses are indeed leaving, just doesn't work.
Once upon a time....
Let me give you a counter example:
Aren't those people missing the intricacies and nuances of those features and mechanics? But then again you can notice and understand everything and still it wont please you. Still that doesn't make me or you any superior.
For example, the lack of an auction house creates depth to trading. I understand it completely, but like you said, I don't care about it. If the game is about slaying monsters its that it has to focus on. Everything else is more or less an inconvenience.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Are the masses indeed leaving?
The mmo audience seems to be made of:
Early adopters or "pre-wow" plaeyrs
WoW players who dont' know much about mmo's other than WoW OR they are looking for WoW 2.0
Gamers who just like games and jump from one game to another for something new.
later mmo adopters (WoW and after) who don't fall under the "die hard WoW" fanbase but who discovered mmo's and all of the different games when the industry grew.
Each one of these groups has different desires and needs and in many cases there are very real reasons particular to that group that would be reason enough to have them leave a game.
This is coupled with all the different reasons why one would leave a particular game in the first place.
What often happens is someone makes a bold statement that a certain game failed because of "X" when if one actually looked at all the facts their would be "Y & Z" reasons.
For instance "Age of Conan failed because it was a themepark" when most purchasers knew this or didn't care but wanted to play in the Conan universe only to find many bugs, uneven leveling, 1-20 experience that dwarfed the rest of the game play, not enough content through the whole experience up to and including "end game".
They essentially want to say "Correlation proves Causation" when it's just not true.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
True. There is one thing though.
Mmorpg developers often feed community with posts, blogs, and various information about crafting and economy and even sometimes advertise it.
Then they provide this feature as some totally primitve, meaningless thing.
That's why some part of playerbase have every right to be angry.
If game is 'about slaying monsters' then it should be communicated honestly with "our mmorg is mainly about combat and fun, we focus on it and other things are just for little distraction and not important or rich features".
Most companies don't do that and then part of playerbase have every right to bash non-combat things.
Because which mmorpg honestly said that game is about slaying monsters almost exclusively?
Without that you cannot say 'if game is about slaying monsters' because WHO would decide that?
Me? You? Jon from Alaska? Mark from Czech Republic?
Mmorpg developers try to please too wide playerbase and because mmorpg crowd is not fresh but seasoned as majority already played some mmorpg in past, be it WoW or be it UO or be it some asian f2p game.
Yet they still try to create game by going same design like mmorpg's would be still this 'new fresh exciting thing' that could group wide variety of diffrent players for long-peroid of time becasue they would be willing to go on compromises cause this mmorpg would be so new, exciting and diffrent experience.
Well mmorpg's are not new, exceptional experience anymore that's why most of 'wide-net' mmorpg's fail to keep their playerbase playing for long time peroids.
After letting go of wow a year ago, last week I decided to come back to the mmorpg world. I`ve been searching for a great game to create my cyberself, and i came across this site because of its detail and community. i know what I`m looking for, so its just a matter of finding a game with details and opinions that fit this. To me, what i mostly want is something that isn`t a cookie cutter in terms of how we build our characters and skillsets. So far, i haven`t found anything promising, I thought maybe Rift (with its soul system) would be the answer, but thanks to this site I discovered this wasn`t exactly the case.
I am glad I found this site, because games of this genre take a lot of investment... time and money... and I am glad this place has a community with people who are knowledgeable, yes, but for the most part (not all) open minded in their opinions - equal in both pros and cons of games.
The only downer I have taken from this site, is that the genre seems to be in a slump... that is at least in terms of what I`m looking for.
I wasn't suggesting the concerns and interests were complaints, nor was I suggesting that they should be dismissed. Personally, I think many of the concerns and issues presented on these forums are extremely valid and would work well in a game designed to cater to this subset of MMO gamers.
Not even touching that 'failing industry' part.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Has any game since WoW released and not lost large percentages after the first month?
Acting like it's just a few "whiners" that visit a single message board is nothing more than whitewashing a very obvious problem with the industry.
Once upon a time....
Kind of a red herring as they almost all lose a large percentage after the first month - it's just the consumer pattern in today's market.
However, this is where the discussion tends to enter the downward spiral, as the market and the games have changed, but you do not accept many of those changes. As a result, to cite where the market has gone and how it has succeeded would only result in it being dismissed because the examples, playerbase, business model, etc don't meet your criteria.
Again, though, no one is calling people complainers or whiners for their concerns or perspectives.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
EDIT: deleted post.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
You could be off your rocker. But I agree with you, so does that make me off my rocker!?! I'm so confused now.
Just looking at this site, there are 1,719,223 members registered as I look at the MMORPG.com banner. That is a small percentage of all MMO players. And some of those, myself included, are not playing a MMO at the moment. Barely over 10% of WoW numbers alone. Far from any majority of the playerbase in MMOs.
Even within this small group of players, we are segmented into even smaller groups. Drawing conclusions on this small dabbling of players is kind of silly. There is a reason why developers and publishers take message board posts with a grain of salt. There may be some good ideas, even some great ones, but how many players actually want that feature or aspect in their game? All they can really look at is numbers since not everyone makes their desires or dislikes known.
When all is said and done, I find it interesting to hang out here and bandy about ideas, sometimes sprinkled with a fact or two
But I try to always keep in mind that we are not the majority of players.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Most of the games released now take very little time and effort getting to max level. Even casual players are accomplishing this in a matter of weeks. From what I've read on this site, many games lack an in-depth "end game" of any sort.
I think (my opinion) that players leave after a couple of months because they "beat the game" and there is not much left for them to do. I could very well be wrong, but that's my take on it
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You let your bias show in the red there. Combat features are just as rich as non-combat features.
But anyway. Its not common to see companies doing that. Only thing that comes to my mind was when, at one point, Arenanet stated their crafting would be "robust" strongly hinting it wouldn't be the main focus. Who would want to deter potential customers when, lets face it, many just look at the feature list and not much else.
To me, a feature list alone is not enough to describe a game, not by a long shot, because to be on the list doesn't yet tell me anything about how said feature is implemented. Many wishlists and suggestions on this forum list things like crafting, exploration etc. but they don't go into detail how they should be made and how the listed features interact and complement each other. Those lists come with a huge amount of implicit expectations that likely are different from player to player too.
Then there are those, who only rate the game by the length of the list -> longer is better.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
On mmorpg.com, a sizeable subset endorses the original (still best!) ignition system for their cars.
Yes, a good slap in the face with a wet herring is often in order.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.