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PvP Balancing & Open World Dueling
MARTYB2K
Member Posts: 167
in Guild Wars 2
Hi All,
Already bought the game and downloaded it. I haven't played any beta's yet, but am currently researching about the game and what class i want to play. Really likeing whay i'm reading about Dungeons and PvP so far. It's great that everyone will have the same level in PvP and similar gear, but is it just possible to challenge someone to a Duel when your out and about in the world? I'd imagine people would want to do this as you won't be getting the chance to show off your epic loot in Battlegrounds so it would still be nice to destroy someone with your great gear in a friendly duel.
Comments
I don't think dueling is going to be in the game. quick access to all pvp will be though.
This is not WoW. Of course there will be no duel - what is the purpose?
Why not instant join WvWvW instead? As level 1?
gw2wiki says dueling won't be in at release, but may be added later.
Keep in mind that dueling is a potential source of trouble.
Yeah, it's fun to spar with friends, but there's a specific category of players who don't see the bigger picture, and as soon as they lose a duel with their <class x> against a <class y>, they will rush on the forums and ask for nerfs. They don't understand that PvP in a game with 8 classes is not balanced for 1 vs 1, even though in GW2 this effect is strongly reduced by the fact that player's skill plays a big role. And this is also where the second source of trouble comes from... some of those unskilled players will definitely not blame themself for losing, but only the other person's class, and more nerf whining will ensue.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Good points. I can live without it, if need be.
Yeah, i dislike the lack of dueling, but i agree with what they're doing by not including it.
Basically, people are inheritantly corrupt, and if you let them show it, they will show their "dark side". There is no denial to that - thats why worst jackasses and griefers gather in games with FFA PVP and full loot - like EVE online.
ArenaNet understands that the only way to make a positive community is to bring forth positive in people. When you're in the world (not in instanced sPVP or WvWvW)
- no way of stealing monsters
- no way of stealing gathering nodes
- no way of stealing quest items
- no way of griefing other player
- no way of killing other player
- no way of hurting other player
- no way of even comparing your "epeen" to that of the other player
Also :
- downed mechanic works to make you acustomed to "lending a hand", "helping a fallen teammate", or "saving someone from death", reviving people gives achievements and points!
- all quests being public makes it so that each additional player is always welcome, unike other games where you are stealing quest mobs/chests/objects/items
- shared gathering nodes means you'll actually tell people where they can get some loot, geel inclined to share, not rush there to get it first or have to somehow unwillingly share it if more than one gatherer is present
That makes it so there is no compettion, no rivalry amongst the people who play one server. On the countrary, this involves you in helping each other.
Now, WvWvW, the "open world pvp" of GW2, only strengthens that. It makes it so that you have to cooperate with your server guilds, not rival them. There is no point being "NO1 guild on the realm" - if you brag too much and aint cooperating, your world will SUCK at WvWvW. There is no names in WvWvW - all you see are people dressed the same (same color) and named teh same so you cannot grief even in Open World PVP! You cant hunt down exact player and you cant know if you are killed over and over again by same or different player.
This is very clever. Very very very clever move by Anet. However, yes, sacrifices have been made in order for it to work,
Yes, its cool to have FFA PVP and full loot and duels and ganking and stuff - it makes this "risk-reward" that makes game more exciting. But unfortunately, this leads to overall decrease in humanity and increase of hostility.
In GW2, you've spent your time in the world lending a helping hand, saving people, constantly on the lookout if someone needs your help
In Darkdall you've spent your time in the world ganking people or being ganked, constantly on the lookout if someone wants to backstab you or if you can backstab someone.
Guess which game influences people in which way.
The only reason to add duels is if enough players want it. Obviously Anet does not think enough players want it to put it in at launch.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Ummm... Actually, you can.
That is sadly only nice theory, impossible to apply in reality unless you have only one class in your game.
A multi class game will always have a kind of "rock - paper - scissor" balance type for the different classes. It's simply impossible to make two classes with different abilities, equal. Hell, even (e.g.) two warriors in GW2 can be vastly different depending on which weapons and utility skills they use. Totally imaginary example here, but a same warrior may have trouble with engineers while he easily fights guardians, and by simply changing weapons, have it easier with engineers but then having a hard time with guardians. And the specs of the engineers and guardians matter too, of course.
So no, all classes should NOT be balanced. The game would be very dull and boring if they were.
PS: this kind of remark is actually quite hillarious coming from someone saying that WoW's PvP requires more skill than GW2's... when WoW is obviously following a "rock - paper - scissor" balancing system for its classes, as Blizzard themself said.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
To think people would get so mad at the idea of dueling....
i would enjoy it.
and while balance is difficult, i see no evidence that it is impossible. and even assuming wildly that game balance is impossible, that still doesn't make any sort of statement on approaching game balance and how close one might come to it without achieving it.
i understand if you believe strongly what you say, but i've seen no evidence that it is hard fact.
Only if the game is built around 1v1 situations. And GW2 is not. It's built around team vs team situations where you are expected to fill in for your mate to a degree. Hecne the whole idea of combo fields that can change the outcome of the fight. Generally MMOs avoid 1v1 balance due to how many possible build syou have per class.
Should a build that is mostly orientated on group support be able to win against a build that's all about single target direct damage? How about AoE build? How about control builds? How do you balance one against another without affecting their group role?
Btw, class balance != 1v1 balance. You are supposed to lose or win 1v1's randomly - game should not be balanced for 1v1's, but for teamplay. Go ask for 1v1 balance in DOTA or LOL and see how far you get :P
Therefore, dueling proves nothing about balance and doesnt help achieve balance. Even if same class, one can be built to share buffs/debuffs between team/enemy, an aoe build, other can be built to compliment their team - support build, one can be single target - 1v1 build, so its obvious latter will win vs former, but it doesnt mean aoe or support builds are absolete - on the countrary, they might be imbalanced in mass world pvp if you make them viable in 1v1. Etc.
So dueing indeed more hampers balance than brings it, if people define balance as equal chance on equal skill level to win a 1v1 duel.
Well, it doesn't take a genius to realize that unless two classes have exactly the same skills (or similar skills doing exactly the same effect), they won't be balanced. Ever. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, it doesn't include stuff like traits, talents, weapons, etc... so the "perfect" 1 vs 1 balance in a MMORPG is simply impossible.
You want perfect 1 vs 1 balance between characters? Quake III Arena. All have the same "stats", all have access to the same weapons. All are the same, actually.
I strongly believe in what I say because it's not opinion, it's fact ;-)
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
i do not believe it takes a genius to realize we must be talking about a completely different term. my definition of balance must not match yours as it in no way relies on two classes having the same abilities. i see where you are coming from, i just feel it is a strange place.
so yes, i will concede that if balance is all things being mirrored exactly then it is indeed a fact that for two classes to be balanced they must be the same class.
My "strange place" is 17+ years of MMORPG playing. If two characters don't have exactly the same skills, there will automatically be one which is advantaged over the other in a 1 vs 1 fight. And in a game with as various options possible as GW2 (or WoW), it's obvious a specific class/build will have it easier against some other specific classes/builds and have it harder against some other specific classes/builds.
As I said, it's not genius level thinking - just simple facts. If you want perfect balance in 1 vs 1 fights, you must give the two opponents exactly the same tools to fight.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
No he is actually quite right. When it comes to 1 vs 1 balancing as people like to break it down into - as long as one class or build has something that another doesnt, no matter how insignificant, players will cry out that they have advantage. So the only way to 'balance' is to homogenise the classes, which results in a very boring game.
WoW is a perfect example of this. It started out with a nice diversity in classes, but now every single Tank spec has exactly the same abilities with the exact same effects and cooldowns. There is still some diversity in healing and DPS, but that is getting whittled away too. That is what 1 vs 1 balancing does.
I would rather games be more like Vanguard or Everquest 1, where different classes are better at doing different things. So there is no 'this is the best class for everything' scenario.
To me dueling as in open world dueling that you see in many mmos is just not a good idea with how guild wars is planned to work really, even though being able to duel or start a duel for the right to gather or gain ownership of thigns in open world pve would be interesting it is against alot of what gw2 is seeking in pve. Yet if they made Duels more like a comptition that is held in the main cities, has prizes, rewards, and you actually sign up for the right to compete in it in a on vs one grouping it would be interesting an allow alot of players to enjoy it. The issue is still that you would have many using the fact of their class as well as weapon layout being weak, and so needing to be buffed while other class/layouts needing to be nerfed. Although i think you will still see this even in wvwvw, pve, and such as players hate feling weaker or at a disadvantage compared to antoher player normally.
GW2 does that quite well actually. Depending on the weapons you use, the utility skills and elite skill you select, and your trait build, you can be more useful as support, as offensive attacker or as crowd controller. And every class can fullfill these three roles, but all in a different way. The support style of a warrior will be very different from the one of a guardian.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
it appears we've come full circle.
this i am unwilling to accept on faith and your word, as before. if you ever happen upon any sort of statistical evidence that you can post i would love to see that though. i'm not sure how you could prove such an assertion though given that there would most likely be mountains of data showing what you describe (unbalanced play) in any kind of experiment i can envision.
regardless, in lieau of evidence it is just an assumption, or an extrapolation from past experience.
either way, its always good to get the input of someone who has been playing online games as long or nearly as long as I.
I know :P It is one of the reasons that I love the game. Traiting differently actually makes the class play entirely differently.
It isnt just homogenised rubbish. Class diversity is one of the most important things for me in a MMO, being able to actually create different builds within the class that I have chosen. It is why I am looking forward to GW2 so much.
Regarding dueling. It probably wouldnt work out in the open where people are doing DEs, just because of how the game works, but I am sure they can put in a dueling arena in a city or something for those that want to do it 1 vs 1. Have an Ascalonian fight club or something.
It isnt really an assumption if you look at the path that balancing has taken games like World of Warcraft or Everquest 2. Every time a class gets an ability that sets it aside from the rest the other classes that have the same role cry out 'Why dont we have something that can do the same thing? It is unfair that this class has this and we dont!'.
I mean, just go look at the class forums for pretty much any newer MMO and you will see this. Everyone wants to have the same tool set as every other class that can fill their role. They arent happy to have strengths and weaknesses.
That is why balancing for 1 vs 1 is a complete fail. These are multiplayer games, it should be balanced around group combat. The chaos staff Mesmer is always going to be better in large group situations than in 1 on 1. The dagger elementalist is better at 1 vs 1 combat compared to the AoE nature of the staff.
Slippery slope though - this could lead to having ranked arenas in this game. I'd rather leave that kind of "PvP in a bowl" to WoW, it's also source of the most whining and the most drastical class nerfs of the game.
I'm of the opinion that in a game with 8 classes, the smallest PvP group size should be 8 characters. That's doesn't mean each class will be represented every time, but it ensures enough diversity to not spawn the "FOTM class composition" syndrome that plagues WOW's 2vs2, 3vs3 and 5vs5 arenas.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
If dueling enters the game it will still be with the marks of ArenaNets design on it.
I don't think we will see it as an open world option, but as a minigame. Because it makes space for the twists that a No griefing and no unfairness design needs.
1vs1 is incredible hard to balance, and i think ArenaNet instead will setup some dueling conditions on more even terms, maybe including a dayly random skill and weapon pool to build your duelist from. Maybe with penalties for how well you and your class is doing.
The point is that it has to be fun for everyone, not only the powerhungry, and because of that I don't think we will see straight dueling. But we will properly get something alot more fun in the long run.
so a minigame on even terms with dayly randoms fighting conditions because its FUN.
you bring up a good point.
they could go so far as to open a colosseum and give players a new gladiator skill set and equipment set upon entering. such that all players had the same skills... sort of how they do keg brawl.
even the korrigan would consider this balanced 1v1!
that would actually be kinda fun imo.