I don't have a problem with the idea that a company can release a crappy product that doesn't work at all or doesn't work as advertised.
But if as customer you can only rely on hearsay from other beta players and the company doesn't admit that there are serious problems before launching their product, you should always be able to receive a refund as customer. Especially with MMO's this is a problem. For some reason many of the MMO companies think that they don't owe their customers any refund even if they completely screw up the first weeks after a release. You should always have a right to return the product if it doesn't work as promised. Their excuses don't matter in this.
Atm, the whole digital media industry is treating customers like crap. Even when products work as intended. Their excuses (anti-piracy, cheating prevention etc) for making you put up with online authorizing (even for single player), DRM installing that messes with your pc's, restrictions of where you can play your CD on, just shows that even paying customers are being seen as potential criminals/cheaters. I mean, why do the legit paying players have to deal with those companies' anti piracy crap for example? Don't those companies understand the irony that the ppl who use pirated copies often have a better play experience?
First and foremost in regards to video games. When your spending your money on the game your not buying the game your buying a liscence to allow you to play said game. Read any eula or agreements in boxes and so on thats just how it is.
That is debatable. Those companies are not the law and just because something is put in the EULA doesn't automatically mean it is right according to the law in your country.
Secondly, everyone experiences software differently because many computers are different. Uploading files to a server can cause wear and tear on servers as well files can go mia whilst uploading. That is just part of the process. Adjusting fixes for each computer , console, and so on can be nerve wracking. Not to mention the people developing these games are still people.
The point is, if a customer is not explicitly warned in a clear way that the purchase might not work and the product doesn't work as promised (example, you pay for a sub, but the servers have problems the first week), they have a right on a refund in most countries according to the law. Those companies' excuses shouldn't matter in this.
They need to take care of themselves and their families as well. So there is always room for error and if you cannot expect that than your thought process is flawed greatly. At the same time no one is forcing you to buy said video game. No one is putting a gun to your head to buy this game. Most games now days also have demos or trials. Play one of those before spending your money on a game. It is impossible to have a 100% bug free, confrontation free launch of any game. Because shit happens. Companies have to deal with it as it happens.
The underlined part has nothing to do with this discussion at all. This is an issue between company and customer, not between some employee and customer. The rest of this paragraph is nonsense. If you buy a product, the product has to work as intended. But you are right about your last sentence. Companies have to deal with it as it happens, so customers can expect a refund if the company screws up their release and their customers can't play their game.
Some companies have shitty customer service and or dont deal with the problems as well or as fast as others.
I do agree that game development even design has become more of making it look pretty and hoping the players dont notice the other crap. Don't get me wrong I like pretty graphics but games have become more about the graphics than the gameplay. Game Studios constantly fighting political battles between themselves. Usually when studios battle the consumer wins but not in all cases. Sometimes its the exact opposite.
My point in all this is, devs. designers are people just like you. Human error is always a possibillity and thinking there is no room for error then your wrong.
Im sure that everyone agrees with this part. But again, this has nothing to do with how those companies treat their customers. You pay your sub, but you can't access the game you are paying for, you have a right on a refund or return of said product if the reason that you can't access it, lies with the company.
MMO consumers continue to throw money at companies who produce flawed products. By flawed I mean seriously so, not "Has some bugs" because that will always be the case. As long as people keep paying, then all the complaining will accomplish nothing towards changing this state of affairs.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
Unstable mmo launches are not a concern to me, because I realize that these games are so big and with so many people connecting at the same time, that it's simply impossible to make a product which will just plain work like everyday after few weeks. There's no software nor hardware that can do this, to think of it, mmorpg launches are like concentrated connection attack on the servers that are used to bring down servers often with malicious intent on other occasions.
SWTOR tried another approach which worked wonders imo. They let people in, in smaller batches over a long period of time. Everything was stabile and technical errors, huge loads and stuff like that except some queues were working fine. Even then the whining was ridicilous since people didnt get to play on that second. They want to rush in with millions of others and that just does not work.
Looking at this realistically, it is what it is. Either you piss of people by letting them in as smaller groups, or you piss of people by letting them all in and the game becoming unstable. As the games company you cant win in an mmorpg launch. I dont personally like my new mmo crashing and not working on launch day, but when that happens, I also kinda understand that. Just let the phase pass.
The internet contains all the information you could possibly need about a game before purchasing. With a grain of salt, a few google searches and the patience to not purchase on day one, you can know exactly what you're getting into before purchasing. Really, who should we be pointing fingers at when you had every opportunity to obtain that information, but decided against it.
MMO consumers continue to throw money at companies who produce flawed products. By flawed I mean seriously so, not "Has some bugs" because that will always be the case. As long as people keep paying, then all the complaining will accomplish nothing towards changing this state of affairs.
The issue being "seriously flawed" to a real, average player is not the same as "seriously flawed" to an angry MMORPG Bittervet (who almost by definition considers every MMORPG "seriously flawed".)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.
So I have my car repaired at the garage - they do a bad job. Instead of everyone saying, yes, that garage should improve its standards - you get the blame for not 'researching' the fact that they generally do bad work.
Sure, its good practical advice for consumers to research a little - but really we should not have to. (Its a bit like, I get burgled and I left the door unlocked - foolish yes, but it doesn't absolve the thief of any of the blame for carrying out an illegal activity)
If people advertise and provide a service, it should be upto a level of reasonable expectation (i.e. what was advertised!). If it isn't we shouldn't blame the consumer - the service provider should rightly be blamed.
The issue being "seriously flawed" to a real, average player is not the same as "seriously flawed" to an angry MMORPG Bittervet (who almost by definition considers every MMORPG "seriously flawed".)
Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.
Sadly that's not how it is with games. People will buy a game a whole year before the game is released. Now who is really to blame here?
There are people out there that will pay good money just to get into closed betas. Gamers are impulsive and impatient. They will gladly pay money before they even know about any feature in a game, simply because a certain company made it, or because they love the IP. I realize I'm making some broad generalizations here but lets face it. Gamers are not known to wait for trials, open betas or even waiting 3 - 5 months after a game is released to make sure a game has been fixed to a playable state/all features added. It's true you can't rely on third hand accounts if you will like something, but a little common sense is in order.
So, in order to clarify your view on the subject, can you please describe your game list to us and the date you bought them?
I do find it funny, so, tell me, do you research for the car you buy? Yes? Where? Magazines? Or you go find every component history in the car, see where it got manufactured to see how reliable it is? You do the same with everything you buy? TVs? Food? Cloth? Cats and dogs and kitchen knives?
So, and im not saying i completely disagree with everything you wrote, you are also stating we cant trust gaming sites and their previews or early made reviews? Because lets face it, most reviews come 2 to 5 weeks after game launches and most trials come way later than that, and if we have to wait for them its like saying we cant trust on what gaming sites have to say?
So, if a gaming sites says, ahh let me see, Diablo 3 is a great game and "ill be going there for months and years" and we buy it and clearly state the game is broken full of exploits and bugs, can we count that as proper research made and we can push that responsability to that magazine/site?
Clearly, for me, it is the LABEL responsability to deliver a quality product and its YOUR responsability to demand a refund and boicott that label if the game is low quality, so they can feel the weight of their actions.
The right to consumer education - To acquire knowledge and skills needed to make informed, confident choices about goods and services, while being aware of basic consumer rights and responsibilities and how to act on them
The part wich you and others fail to see:
The right to be informed - To be given the facts needed to make an informed choice, and to be protected against dishonest or misleading advertising and labelling.
Worst of all, consumers were pushed to a state when they dont expect to get anything for their money.
What happened?
Its called dumbing down...or rampant fanboism.
Funny, I would have called it "Specious Bovine Caca." Huh, your mileage will vary, I guess.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Worst of all, consumers were pushed to a state when they dont expect to get anything for their money.
What happened?
Consumers stopped being discerning.
If you tell every company in the world that you are willing to settle for crap....thats what they will sell you.
Your example about bootmakers in the past says it all...the consumer would refuse to accept poor qualtiy merchandise. The basic principles of capitalism tell companies to make the most profit possible. If consumers are discerning this will mean that teh company that produces the best product will make the most money. Competition to produce the best product ensues.
But if consumers are willing to buy just about anything regardless of quality...we are telling companies that the route to profit is minimized resource expenditure. Cut corners and rush a product to market, regardless of readiness for consumption, for maximum possible profit !
What happened you ask ?
We, the consumers, stopped caring. We got lazy. Complaining on a forum AFTER weve made the producers of the most recent pile of garbage tens of millions of dollars is too late.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Basically, when in dark medieval days you bought a pair of boots, you could rely on them being quality product that will serve you well. And if not, you could come back to the marketplace, slap the vendor with the boots you bought, and that was the worst humiliation for the vendor and noone would buy from him afterwards.
Source?
Developers are not responsible for your expectations, especially if you expect same service and guarantees of console off-line game in an MMO.
Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.
Sadly that's not how it is with games. People will buy a game a whole year before the game is released. Now who is really to blame here?
There are people out there that will pay good money just to get into closed betas. Gamers are impulsive and impatient. They will gladly pay money before they even know about any feature in a game, simply because a certain company made it, or because they love the IP. I realize I'm making some broad generalizations here but lets face it. Gamers are not known to wait for trials, open betas or even waiting 3 - 5 months after a game is released to make sure a game has been fixed to a playable state/all features added. It's true you can't rely on third hand accounts if you will like something, but a little common sense is in order.
I generally agree with this, however (lol) I am someone who has waited and will continue to wait for Lime Odyssey to relaunch. Yes the forums have had a number of rage filled "why isn't it out yet" posts. But most of the community is patient and willing to wait if that results in a better product. As one of the (very lucky) few who got to participate in both Alpha tests, I can truthfully say that this game will be worth the wait. Even for an AT it was pretty well polished, and very fun to play. Too bad they rushed the Korean and Thai versions to OBT...
And paying to participate in a CBT? Are you mad? Lemme get this straight, you want me to pay you to test your product for you. LOL!!!
MMO consumers continue to throw money at companies who produce flawed products. By flawed I mean seriously so, not "Has some bugs" because that will always be the case. As long as people keep paying, then all the complaining will accomplish nothing towards changing this state of affairs.
The issue being "seriously flawed" to a real, average player is not the same as "seriously flawed" to an angry MMORPG Bittervet (who almost by definition considers every MMORPG "seriously flawed".)
ANd how many Bittervets throw money at companies with each new game, hoping this one will restore the lost lustre of the past?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.
Sadly that's not how it is with games. People will buy a game a whole year before the game is released. Now who is really to blame here?
There are people out there that will pay good money just to get into closed betas. Gamers are impulsive and impatient. They will gladly pay money before they even know about any feature in a game, simply because a certain company made it, or because they love the IP. I realize I'm making some broad generalizations here but lets face it. Gamers are not known to wait for trials, open betas or even waiting 3 - 5 months after a game is released to make sure a game has been fixed to a playable state/all features added. It's true you can't rely on third hand accounts if you will like something, but a little common sense is in order.
And paying to participate in a CBT? Are you mad? Lemme get this straight, you want me to pay you to test your product for you. LOL!!!
It's crazy but closed beta accounts can easily sell for several hundred bucks.. I know people who sold a few. It depends on the game though and how high profile it is
It just goes to show how desperate people are to be the early bird. Those same people have no problems complaining about shoddy products either even though they are largely responsible for squandering their own money.
Something as simple as a bad console port, can be avoided if gamers simply had the patience to wait and see. Dungeon Siege 3 comes to mind. It even had a demo
I actually like beta testing. I, however. Do not buy a game to get in ghe beta. Some beta experiences have been better than others. I learned my lesson with age of conan and warhammer online. I am testing ( not just playing) before I buy. Consequencily, i have not played any mmo after beta. Until now that is, had to buy two copies of gw2. This isnt because it is an amazing game. Above average at best....but the gf likes the asura.... Anyway i digress, play before you play. It will save the industry. Paying then playing is so 2000-late
Just like with any product, it is YOUR responsibility to do proper research before you invest your money in it.
So I have my car repaired at the garage - they do a bad job. Instead of everyone saying, yes, that garage should improve its standards - you get the blame for not 'researching' the fact that they generally do bad work.
You always check for references even if you hire somebody to put up a new kitchen. It doesn't prevent you from getting screwed over by somebody who lists friends and family as references or a contractor that hired F tards to work on it, but it's always better than to do things blindly. Same goes for buying games. Analogies are great and all but software and games are a different beast in many ways. You have a more vocal community that will let you know if you are buying a PoS that's missing half of its features. The argument about "shouldn't have to do research" is moot. We are living in the information age. Even since the dawn of time, people have been asking for references, reviews and word of mouth. Then we have a group of people who thinks we should live in a perfect world where you can just pick something up in a store and it will be grade A quality, because that's how the world ought to work..
ANd how many Bittervets throw money at companies with each new game, hoping this one will restore the lost lustre of the past?
Yeah, there's quite a few.
It's like my story of Joe, a few threads back. Joe tried a Cheeseburger for the first time a while back, and discovered he loved Cheeseburgers. Then he only ate Cheeseburgers for a year straight. Nowadays he complains about how, despite trying different cheeses and adding bacon, most Cheeseburgers are the same. His friends suggest that if he wants something different, he should try something different.
Bittervets are a lot like Joe.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
ANd how many Bittervets throw money at companies with each new game, hoping this one will restore the lost lustre of the past?
Yeah, there's quite a few.
It's like my story of Joe, a few threads back. Joe tried a Cheeseburger for the first time a while back, and discovered he loved Cheeseburgers. Then he only ate Cheeseburgers for a year straight. Nowadays he complains about how, despite trying different cheeses and adding bacon, most Cheeseburgers are the same. His friends suggest that if he wants something different, he should try something different.
Bittervets are a lot like Joe.
Like "Joe" is real.
How about a more appropriate analogy? The guy who wants a good steak, but all he can find are fast food joints. But the fast food managers keep telling him "that can't be done."
And some guy on a message board named Axemeat who flips burgers keeps saying that the guy is just bitter.
How about a more appropriate analogy? The guy who wants a good steak, but all he can find are fast food joints. But the fast food managers keep telling him "that can't be done."
And some guy on a message board named Axemeat who flips burgers keeps saying that the guy is just bitter.
If you can't find steak, you find other delicious games instead. Everywhere I've lived except Seattle has cruddy teriyaki restaurants, but I don't sit there complaining or refuse to eat -- I have whatever local dishes are excellent, like Sushi or Crab or Chinese.
Not sure why you imply I work on MMORPGs. I just know how to enjoy a delicious gourmet steak burger like Rift. I don't actually make them myself.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
I don't have a problem with the idea that a company can release a crappy product that doesn't work at all or doesn't work as advertised.
But if as customer you can only rely on hearsay from other beta players and the company doesn't admit that there are serious problems before launching their product, you should always be able to receive a refund as customer. Especially with MMO's this is a problem. For some reason many of the MMO companies think that they don't owe their customers any refund even if they completely screw up the first weeks after a release. You should always have a right to return the product if it doesn't work as promised. Their excuses don't matter in this.
Atm, the whole digital media industry is treating customers like crap. Even when products work as intended. Their excuses (anti-piracy, cheating prevention etc) for making you put up with online authorizing (even for single player), DRM installing that messes with your pc's, restrictions of where you can play your CD on, just shows that even paying customers are being seen as potential criminals/cheaters. I mean, why do the legit paying players have to deal with those companies' anti piracy crap for example? Don't those companies understand the irony that the ppl who use pirated copies often have a better play experience?
MMO consumers continue to throw money at companies who produce flawed products. By flawed I mean seriously so, not "Has some bugs" because that will always be the case. As long as people keep paying, then all the complaining will accomplish nothing towards changing this state of affairs.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
Unstable mmo launches are not a concern to me, because I realize that these games are so big and with so many people connecting at the same time, that it's simply impossible to make a product which will just plain work like everyday after few weeks. There's no software nor hardware that can do this, to think of it, mmorpg launches are like concentrated connection attack on the servers that are used to bring down servers often with malicious intent on other occasions.
SWTOR tried another approach which worked wonders imo. They let people in, in smaller batches over a long period of time. Everything was stabile and technical errors, huge loads and stuff like that except some queues were working fine. Even then the whining was ridicilous since people didnt get to play on that second. They want to rush in with millions of others and that just does not work.
Looking at this realistically, it is what it is. Either you piss of people by letting them in as smaller groups, or you piss of people by letting them all in and the game becoming unstable. As the games company you cant win in an mmorpg launch. I dont personally like my new mmo crashing and not working on launch day, but when that happens, I also kinda understand that. Just let the phase pass.
The internet contains all the information you could possibly need about a game before purchasing. With a grain of salt, a few google searches and the patience to not purchase on day one, you can know exactly what you're getting into before purchasing. Really, who should we be pointing fingers at when you had every opportunity to obtain that information, but decided against it.
The issue being "seriously flawed" to a real, average player is not the same as "seriously flawed" to an angry MMORPG Bittervet (who almost by definition considers every MMORPG "seriously flawed".)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So I have my car repaired at the garage - they do a bad job. Instead of everyone saying, yes, that garage should improve its standards - you get the blame for not 'researching' the fact that they generally do bad work.
Sure, its good practical advice for consumers to research a little - but really we should not have to. (Its a bit like, I get burgled and I left the door unlocked - foolish yes, but it doesn't absolve the thief of any of the blame for carrying out an illegal activity)
If people advertise and provide a service, it should be upto a level of reasonable expectation (i.e. what was advertised!). If it isn't we shouldn't blame the consumer - the service provider should rightly be blamed.
Someone SIG that, STAT!
So, in order to clarify your view on the subject, can you please describe your game list to us and the date you bought them?
I do find it funny, so, tell me, do you research for the car you buy? Yes? Where? Magazines? Or you go find every component history in the car, see where it got manufactured to see how reliable it is? You do the same with everything you buy? TVs? Food? Cloth? Cats and dogs and kitchen knives?
So, and im not saying i completely disagree with everything you wrote, you are also stating we cant trust gaming sites and their previews or early made reviews? Because lets face it, most reviews come 2 to 5 weeks after game launches and most trials come way later than that, and if we have to wait for them its like saying we cant trust on what gaming sites have to say?
So, if a gaming sites says, ahh let me see, Diablo 3 is a great game and "ill be going there for months and years" and we buy it and clearly state the game is broken full of exploits and bugs, can we count that as proper research made and we can push that responsability to that magazine/site?
Clearly, for me, it is the LABEL responsability to deliver a quality product and its YOUR responsability to demand a refund and boicott that label if the game is low quality, so they can feel the weight of their actions.
To clarify things for you:
http://www.consumersinternational.org/who-we-are/consumer-rights
The part where i agree with you:
The right to consumer education - To acquire knowledge and skills needed to make informed, confident choices about goods and services, while being aware of basic consumer rights and responsibilities and how to act on them
The part wich you and others fail to see:
The right to be informed - To be given the facts needed to make an informed choice, and to be protected against dishonest or misleading advertising and labelling.
Its called dumbing down...or rampant fanboism.
So yeah, basically what I said was that anyone that tells you that you have no right to say or expect anything are either idiots or bent over fanboys.
Funny, I would have called it "Specious Bovine Caca." Huh, your mileage will vary, I guess.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
uh? I expect to get hours and hours of fun when i buy an enteratinment product .. and that is exactly what happened whenever i bought a game.
Consumers stopped being discerning.
If you tell every company in the world that you are willing to settle for crap....thats what they will sell you.
Your example about bootmakers in the past says it all...the consumer would refuse to accept poor qualtiy merchandise. The basic principles of capitalism tell companies to make the most profit possible. If consumers are discerning this will mean that teh company that produces the best product will make the most money. Competition to produce the best product ensues.
But if consumers are willing to buy just about anything regardless of quality...we are telling companies that the route to profit is minimized resource expenditure. Cut corners and rush a product to market, regardless of readiness for consumption, for maximum possible profit !
What happened you ask ?
We, the consumers, stopped caring. We got lazy. Complaining on a forum AFTER weve made the producers of the most recent pile of garbage tens of millions of dollars is too late.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
This only means that the consumers voted with their wallet.
When did consumers become such chumps?
I generally agree with this, however (lol) I am someone who has waited and will continue to wait for Lime Odyssey to relaunch. Yes the forums have had a number of rage filled "why isn't it out yet" posts. But most of the community is patient and willing to wait if that results in a better product. As one of the (very lucky) few who got to participate in both Alpha tests, I can truthfully say that this game will be worth the wait. Even for an AT it was pretty well polished, and very fun to play. Too bad they rushed the Korean and Thai versions to OBT...
And paying to participate in a CBT? Are you mad? Lemme get this straight, you want me to pay you to test your product for you. LOL!!!
ANd how many Bittervets throw money at companies with each new game, hoping this one will restore the lost lustre of the past?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
It's crazy but closed beta accounts can easily sell for several hundred bucks.. I know people who sold a few. It depends on the game though and how high profile it is
It just goes to show how desperate people are to be the early bird. Those same people have no problems complaining about shoddy products either even though they are largely responsible for squandering their own money.
Something as simple as a bad console port, can be avoided if gamers simply had the patience to wait and see. Dungeon Siege 3 comes to mind. It even had a demo
So if I'm happy with all the games I've bought lately, does that mean that I have lower standards or just that I'm a more discerning customer?
Either way, I'm happy, so what do I care? Haha.
You always check for references even if you hire somebody to put up a new kitchen. It doesn't prevent you from getting screwed over by somebody who lists friends and family as references or a contractor that hired F tards to work on it, but it's always better than to do things blindly. Same goes for buying games. Analogies are great and all but software and games are a different beast in many ways. You have a more vocal community that will let you know if you are buying a PoS that's missing half of its features. The argument about "shouldn't have to do research" is moot. We are living in the information age. Even since the dawn of time, people have been asking for references, reviews and word of mouth. Then we have a group of people who thinks we should live in a perfect world where you can just pick something up in a store and it will be grade A quality, because that's how the world ought to work..
Uh? you may want to re-read what I quoted...He asked, I answered, it went over your head.
Yeah, there's quite a few.
It's like my story of Joe, a few threads back. Joe tried a Cheeseburger for the first time a while back, and discovered he loved Cheeseburgers. Then he only ate Cheeseburgers for a year straight. Nowadays he complains about how, despite trying different cheeses and adding bacon, most Cheeseburgers are the same. His friends suggest that if he wants something different, he should try something different.
Bittervets are a lot like Joe.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Like "Joe" is real.
How about a more appropriate analogy? The guy who wants a good steak, but all he can find are fast food joints. But the fast food managers keep telling him "that can't be done."
And some guy on a message board named Axemeat who flips burgers keeps saying that the guy is just bitter.
Once upon a time....
If you can't find steak, you find other delicious games instead. Everywhere I've lived except Seattle has cruddy teriyaki restaurants, but I don't sit there complaining or refuse to eat -- I have whatever local dishes are excellent, like Sushi or Crab or Chinese.
Not sure why you imply I work on MMORPGs. I just know how to enjoy a delicious gourmet steak burger like Rift. I don't actually make them myself.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver