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So is it just, LFG need control/support now instead of tank/heals?

2

Comments

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

    i'm expecting to see quite a bit of "group of 4 LF tank"

    or "got 4 just need heals"

    i hope i'm wrong though.

    As soon as you see that, find another group, because people screaminf that still have no clue about how to play the game.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • jondifooljondifool cphPosts: 1,114Member

    For players good enough where dungeons are hard enough , and it really looks like  dungeouns will be, there will instead of waisting time lfg, be some time spend where the builds is disscussed and group members are asked to bring certain skills. 

    For less patient and less selfreliable players, they will ask LFG and seek for a groupcomposition based on the latest famous WIKI build to clear that dungeoun. This will happend no matter how genious system ArenaNet have developed, simply because not every one can handle the possibilities that the system offers. And there will always be a strong tendecy to blame failures on builds and not lack of personal skill.

    But the real point is that instead of spending time LFG , in GW2 most people will spend time preparing, discusssing how to adjust the proffesions to bring whats needed to the table.  

     

     

    read how to create a succesfull mmo before posting about GW2. And read tao of ArenaNet before talking about innovation in GW2

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    All classes have a built in Heal / CC / Nuke, so you cant say that Joe needs to take care of CC and Frodo take care of dps.

    If you wipe witha group (and you will) you cant blame any1 except if that players dint use their skills properly or dint heal himself.

     

     

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member
    Originally posted by Mothanos

    All classes have a built in Heal / CC / Nuke, so you cant say that Joe needs to take care of CC and Frodo take care of dps.

    If you wipe with a group (and you will) you cant blame anyone except if that player dint use their skills properly or didn't heal himself.

     

     

    I corrected a few spelling bits, don't mind me...

     

    But THIS. This statement sums up how the game differs entirely from a standard WoW-type trinity. Each player is equally responsible for the health of themselves/the team, keeping enemies under control, and killing enemies.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Fendel84M

    Just wondering, they say they got rid of the trinity. And now they use a dps/control/support system. So does that just mean most people will still spec DPS and no one will wanna be support or control?

    No, it means "Need two more for Catacombs!" That's all. There are no roles anymore... your skills have the damage, control and support aspects (with multiple often on each skill), so it's a matter of using the right skills at the right time.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,978Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evolver1972

    No.  People will probably have to spec for balance.  So they can do different things based on the situation.  The whole idea is that you can get a group of people who are all the same class and run a hard dungeon and succeed.  So, everyone will probably have to DPS, Tank, or Heal (rez) based on the situation at the moment.  Every class has the ability to do that if necessary, although some are better at some things than others.

    You won't need to stand around looking for a specific type of class.  You can say "LFG" and take first come first served regardless of class.

    I think you either can specc 5 balanced builds or 3 and have one each maxed on a speciality. But the second one will probably work best for guilds, for PUGs is probably balanced characters best.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by evolver1972

    No.  People will probably have to spec for balance.  So they can do different things based on the situation.  The whole idea is that you can get a group of people who are all the same class and run a hard dungeon and succeed.  So, everyone will probably have to DPS, Tank, or Heal (rez) based on the situation at the moment.  Every class has the ability to do that if necessary, although some are better at some things than others.

    You won't need to stand around looking for a specific type of class.  You can say "LFG" and take first come first served regardless of class.

    I think you either can specc 5 balanced builds or 3 and have one each maxed on a speciality. But the second one will probably work best for guilds, for PUGs is probably balanced characters best.

    Remember, though, ANet stated that people can try to force themselves into something resembling roles and have a moderate degree of success in the early areas of the game, but they'll fail in the later, more challenging content. We'll see people try to come up with "healer guardian" builds, for example, early in the game... but down the road they'll be the raggled street bums holding the "will heal for food" signs near the gates of Divinity's Reach.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member

    There may be a bit of this kind of thing but it will be specific or situational. Need to keep an NPC alive and active against a dungeon boss - ask people to spec 'heal other' abilities.

    Got a boss who does a 1-shot - ask people to spec fast interrupts.

    The clever thing in GW2 is that no matter what class you can eventually unlock the ability to fulfill nearly (if not all, given some ingenuity) all 'requirements' PvE might throw at you, so there is not 'lockout' from 'leet' groups looking for certain capabilities based on class or race - merely one based on skill if people pay THAT much attention to it.

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member

    For specialists, it's going to depend on how they play.

     

    If you get the guy that says "I'm a healer guys, I'm never getting out of water spec, I don't care, that's all I can do", that peson will fail and bring the team down with him.

     

    If you get the one that says "I'm strongest in water, I'm specced for it, but I'll swap to other roles whenever the team needs", then he will do just fine.

  • ZinzanZinzan NorthPosts: 1,351Member

    No trinity so everyone is equal right? Wait and see, some classes will soon emerge as being more "equal" than others and certain builds will inevitably be fotm. It's unavoidable in any game like this. The only way to avoid this is to have a completely skilless system for everyone to be truly equal, there really is no other way.

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • This is in fact the best question to ask rather some trinity BS.

     

    And the answer is a qualfied "No".  The reason its "No" is that no one person can really provided enough support/CC for a dungeon.

    So maybe a good guardian can provide all the healing you would need, but without a mesmer to Moa or a thief to stun, or whatever other solution, the elementalist in Ascalonian Catacombs it won't matter because you will never out heal that nasty nasty attack they have.

     

    But its a qualified "No" for exactly the same reason.  People will need to make sure you are able to do SOMETHING. 

     

    Bottom line is this Anet want you to work together to "win" an encounter.  This means you will need multiple people with various sorts of support.  If a group already has three people with disables they will probably recruit the last person with a particular support thing in mind, might be healing, might be missile deflection. 

     

    So you want see constant spam for "LF1M, need tank then good to go".  But you may see "LF1M, make sure you have an interrupt and can use it" among a whole host of other variations.

     

    You as an individual who is part of a team are not stuck in one role.  Instead you need to be able to apply certain support stuff at key times in conjunction with the rest of your team.  Thus people will be looking for things to mesh with the team.

    You don't get your ticket into a team by having a 2 second daze.  You get your ticket by being able to use that 2 second daze well.  Almost every class has some variation on a 2 second interrupt.  Some classes can do a bit more than others.  But no class is gonna be the "shutdown" role filler.  You need at least two people for most dungeons to do that.  Same thing with aggro managment.  No one tank is the aggro manager, you need to do it as a team and may need to throw in things like cripples or teleports to manage it right or get the boss off someone.

     

    The thing people miss is their are roles yes.  But no one person fills those roles.  That is the main design divergence. 

     

    That does not mean everyone is the "support", you may have 2 mostly DPS and 3 people with a variety of support. 

    For example one person with some defense healing/bubbles, and the other two are interrupts/snares for nullifying nasty attacks/bad aggro.  The DPS are for burning stuff down and have one utility to get out of trouble(some kind of CC break).

    When a boss gets on one the DPSers and does a knock down, the DPSer is responsible for popping his CC break.  One of the interrupters make sure he is not hit by a super hard hit and the other lays down the snare so that the DPSer can get away and recover.  If its really bad the third person bubbles or walls to keep boss off and lays down a regen area for the DPSer.

     

    This is different than a game where you see "LF1M need tank then good to go".  Usually that scenario is the sole responsibility of the tank, the healer may help to try and make sure he does not go down.  But the "get the boss off and DPS away"  portion is the job of the tank.  That is what they usually save a forced attack taunt move for.  Instead in Guild Wars 2 rather than making the mob act stupid you must counter its dangerous attack or combination of attacks and then recover tactically.

    Performing such a counter generally always takes at least a combination of 2 people and may take more.  At the same time there are multiple ways to interweave support to achieve the same funcional result.

     

    Decent teams will have some idea of what type of support they would need if they already have 4 people.  A guardian or ele or necro can generally put out more healing than a mesmer.  If you are going to go for a turtle type strategy you opt for one of those classes and ask for it.  On the other hand there is no real reason you need healing at all.  You could go for every single person using controls/interrupts.  Five mesmers with Moa can make the multiple mob encounters that slaughtered many people in Catacombs much easier.  Elementalists don't cast their huge devastating AOE's when they are a Moa bird and you can Moa all three mobs and Moa the ele 3 times with 5 mesmers.

     

    You will most likely start seeing particular team setups get advertised in GW2 rather than the need tank or need healer spam.  As strategies become known you will see stuff like "Recruting for IWAY team"  or "Need 2 mesmers with time warp for spike team".  They will be particular but only in the context of the team build they believe has been proven to work.  In some ways this can get more elitist than typical trinity games.

    In some ways this type of recruiting can be just as narrow minded and tiresome as the typical trinity system.  People will adhere to their pet strategies against all reason and are often complete weenies about it.  But the nature of the teams themselves throughout the game as a whole will vary quite a bit.

     

    How can I say this with a decent amount of confidence?  Because I have played GW1 and GW2.  I can tell from playing GW2 the nature of what is possible and that is leans towards a team build dynamic rather than a role filling dynamic.  You can see in GW1 PvP and PvE that this sort of dynamic leads to certain social behaviors and recruitment.

     

    It not all roses and its not always as open as people claim because people are often closeminded and more variation can actuall make people more conservative but there is much more variation on the macro scale when it comes to teams "winning" a dungeon. 

     

  • RivalenRivalen TaviraPosts: 503Member

    For the love of anything you hold dear, STEP OUTSIDE OF YOUR BOX!

     

    The game requires only one thing, 5 individuals that can function as a team.

    Yes, some builds will work better then others, but teamwork and people that actually react to combat will always work better in GW2 then 5 class builds.

     

    I'd much rather play with someone that can actually respond to combat, know when to CC and so on then with someone with the perfect build, in this game the builds won't accomodate for player inadequacy.

     

    Edit: Removing the 1st game part.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member
    Originally posted by Rivalen

    For the love of anything you hold dear, STEP OUTSIDE OF YOUR BOX!

     

    The game requires only one thing, 5 individuals that can function as a team.

    Yes, some builds will work better then others, but teamwork and people that actually react to combat will always work better in GW2 then 5 class builds.

     

    I'd much rather play with someone that can actually respond to combat, know when to CC and so on then with someone with the perfect build, this is the 1st game where the builds won't accomodate for player inadequacy.

    yep

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member

    In a perfect world, it would be " Group LF2M players". 

    In reality, there will be OP classes / specs, so we will see " Group LF4M Melee Mesmers" or w/e is OP at the moment. 

  • Originally posted by Zinzan

    No trinity so everyone is equal right? Wait and see, some classes will soon emerge as being more "equal" than others and certain builds will inevitably be fotm. It's unavoidable in any game like this. The only way to avoid this is to have a completely skilless system for everyone to be truly equal, there really is no other way.

    Perfect example of asking the wrong question.

    Has nothing to do with equal.  Its about being sufficient.  No one person is sufficient in GW2 to pull off a "roles".

     

    In WoW/LOTRO/etc etc a tank class is purely standalone sufficient to keep mobs off of other people in the team. 

    No one person in GW2 is sufficient for this.  Maybe 2 or 3 people working various controls can do something that is functionally the same, thus the role is filled.  But in GW2 the role is filled by a synergy between multiple people, not by one person running a particular class.  And yes some classes are going to be much better at one strategy than others.

    And on the other hand the limited nature of each individual also means that having everyone able to fill that role is a waste.  You want to minimize the number of people you need for a particular function.  If you can get it so that you only need two people with controls rather than 3 then you can have that other person do DPS or a group venom buff and kill faster. 

    You can only choose so many skills.  Everyone does not do everything. FAR FAR FAR from it.  You have serious contraints.  Not only can no one person really fill any role.  But you need to be smart an economical to get enough skills between all your members to fill the roles you need for your strategy.

  • RedempRedemp Hot Springs, ARPosts: 1,042Member

     

     

     STOP!

     

     

     

     

    Before you reply any further ,  go read Gestalt's post , please.

    ** To slow, it's on Page 4 now.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    In a perfect world, it would be " Group LF2M players". 

    In reality, there will be OP classes / specs, so we will see " Group LF4M Melee Mesmers" or w/e is OP at the moment. 

    Honestly, we're going to see a lot of variations of the 2.

    We'll have some groups that will just roll w/ anything, and don't care.

    We'll have some groups that are trying to organize a specific class combination, and they are going to be a lot more picky.

    We'll have some groups that tends to play best with certain classes, and they will be a little picky.

    And we'll have some players who are soo used to uber skill X that they will refuse to play w/ anything else, and they will be the most annoying / picky.

    You can't really fight human nature, no matter how hard a game tries to compensate. The good thing is that you aren't forced to follow these people if you don't want to, and if there's people being 'tards in chat, it doesn't really effect you all that much.

    The tradeoff is that you may have to show more initiative when these sorts of situations happen, and may need to form your own groups as a result. Not a huge deal, but I'm sure people will complain about it.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    In a perfect world, it would be " Group LF2M players". 

    In reality, there will be OP classes / specs, so we will see " Group LF4M Melee Mesmers" or w/e is OP at the moment. 

    Honestly, we're going to see a lot of variations of the 2.

    We'll have some groups that will just roll w/ anything, and don't care.

    We'll have some groups that are trying to organize a specific class combination, and they are going to be a lot more picky.

    We'll have some groups that tends to play best with certain classes, and they will be a little picky.

    And we'll have some players who are soo used to uber skill X that they will refuse to play w/ anything else, and they will be the most annoying / picky.

    You can't really fight human nature, no matter how hard a game tries to compensate. The good thing is that you aren't forced to follow these people if you don't want to, and if there's people being 'tards in chat, it doesn't really effect you all that much.

    The tradeoff is that you may have to show more initiative when these sorts of situations happen, and may need to form your own groups as a result. Not a huge deal, but I'm sure people will complain about it.

    MMORPGs have been about min/maxing for a very long time. As long as GW2 provides challenging content, players will do what they need to to win. Your only hope to circumvent this is to play within your guild, but the same can be said for any other game.  GW2 is no different.

  • sajahsajah nopPosts: 35Member

    There can't be LF control/damage/support because they're not roles. You are not a control class, you are not a damage class. In battle you do all three, it's inevitable, there is no net, no healer or tank to save you, so if the control or support guy dies, it's over pretty quickly (and since he can't maintain his control or support all the time he will die quickly to begin with). People will need to attune their builds, especially in dungeon.

    But that being said, it doesn't mean you will just go after getting 5 players... don't dream.

    It's going to be : LF players.

    Then the real fun begins. People will need to synergize their builds, and it's not going to be that easy for some players. The main problem is going to be the teambuild wall, some players just won't let you suggest them to take a weapon or a skill (because it just helps the team), they will want to run their build (like we saw in GW1, but worse since there is not healer so there is no net, if the guy doesn't work with the team it's gonna be wipe fest...).

  • pdabb38pdabb38 Ann Arbor, MIPosts: 43Member

    I'm not to sure what skills each class gets. I like support so im guessing guardian would posses the ability to load up those skills.I was also wandering who gets the aoe heal?

  • SiphaedSiphaed Everywhere!Posts: 877Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    This is in fact the best question to ask rather some trinity BS.

     

    And the answer is a qualfied "No".  The reason its "No" is that no one person can really provided enough support/CC for a dungeon.

    So maybe a good guardian can provide all the healing you would need, but without a mesmer to Moa or a thief to stun, or whatever other solution, the elementalist in Ascalonian Catacombs it won't matter because you will never out heal that nasty nasty attack they have.

     

    But its a qualified "No" for exactly the same reason.  People will need to make sure you are able to do SOMETHING. 

     

    Bottom line is this Anet want you to work together to "win" an encounter.  This means you will need multiple people with various sorts of support.  If a group already has three people with disables they will probably recruit the last person with a particular support thing in mind, might be healing, might be missile deflection. 

     

    So you want see constant spam for "LF1M, need tank then good to go".  But you may see "LF1M, make sure you have an interrupt and can use it" among a whole host of other variations.

     

    You as an individual who is part of a team are not stuck in one role.  Instead you need to be able to apply certain support stuff at key times in conjunction with the rest of your team.  Thus people will be looking for things to mesh with the team.

    You don't get your ticket into a team by having a 2 second daze.  You get your ticket by being able to use that 2 second daze well.  Almost every class has some variation on a 2 second interrupt.  Some classes can do a bit more than others.  But no class is gonna be the "shutdown" role filler.  You need at least two people for most dungeons to do that.  Same thing with aggro managment.  No one tank is the aggro manager, you need to do it as a team and may need to throw in things like cripples or teleports to manage it right or get the boss off someone.

     

    The thing people miss is their are roles yes.  But no one person fills those roles.  That is the main design divergence. 

     

    That does not mean everyone is the "support", you may have 2 mostly DPS and 3 people with a variety of support. 

    For example one person with some defense healing/bubbles, and the other two are interrupts/snares for nullifying nasty attacks/bad aggro.  The DPS are for burning stuff down and have one utility to get out of trouble(some kind of CC break).

    When a boss gets on one the DPSers and does a knock down, the DPSer is responsible for popping his CC break.  One of the interrupters make sure he is not hit by a super hard hit and the other lays down the snare so that the DPSer can get away and recover.  If its really bad the third person bubbles or walls to keep boss off and lays down a regen area for the DPSer.

     

    This is different than a game where you see "LF1M need tank then good to go".  Usually that scenario is the sole responsibility of the tank, the healer may help to try and make sure he does not go down.  But the "get the boss off and DPS away"  portion is the job of the tank.  That is what they usually save a forced attack taunt move for.  Instead in Guild Wars 2 rather than making the mob act stupid you must counter its dangerous attack or combination of attacks and then recover tactically.

    Performing such a counter generally always takes at least a combination of 2 people and may take more.  At the same time there are multiple ways to interweave support to achieve the same funcional result.

     

    Decent teams will have some idea of what type of support they would need if they already have 4 people.  A guardian or ele or necro can generally put out more healing than a mesmer.  If you are going to go for a turtle type strategy you opt for one of those classes and ask for it.  On the other hand there is no real reason you need healing at all.  You could go for every single person using controls/interrupts.  Five mesmers with Moa can make the multiple mob encounters that slaughtered many people in Catacombs much easier.  Elementalists don't cast their huge devastating AOE's when they are a Moa bird and you can Moa all three mobs and Moa the ele 3 times with 5 mesmers.

     

    You will most likely start seeing particular team setups get advertised in GW2 rather than the need tank or need healer spam.  As strategies become known you will see stuff like "Recruting for IWAY team"  or "Need 2 mesmers with time warp for spike team".  They will be particular but only in the context of the team build they believe has been proven to work.  In some ways this can get more elitist than typical trinity games.

    In some ways this type of recruiting can be just as narrow minded and tiresome as the typical trinity system.  People will adhere to their pet strategies against all reason and are often complete weenies about it.  But the nature of the teams themselves throughout the game as a whole will vary quite a bit.

     

    How can I say this with a decent amount of confidence?  Because I have played GW1 and GW2.  I can tell from playing GW2 the nature of what is possible and that is leans towards a team build dynamic rather than a role filling dynamic.  You can see in GW1 PvP and PvE that this sort of dynamic leads to certain social behaviors and recruitment.

     

    It not all roses and its not always as open as people claim because people are often closeminded and more variation can actuall make people more conservative but there is much more variation on the macro scale when it comes to teams "winning" a dungeon. 

     

    This post is worthy of being bumped directly.

     

       Also, I wanted to say the first time that I get level 30 I'm going to /map "LF4M Elementalists Ascalonian Catacombs for an All Elementalist run" .   I'm just going to see if we can do it or not.  It's going to be insane.


  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon

    you are going to see a lot of spam for guardians and water elementalists , even though you can do a dungeon with all 5 dps classes just spamming dps and dodging smaller aoe hits will still need to get support heals and absorbs. No one runs  a perfect game all the time so you will still need a good support team.

    If you been following Guild Wars 2 closely the only different between a healer in say wow or a healer in guild wars 2 is in GW2 all classes are held accountable for their own actions in dodging and messing up. In other games healers were held accountable for not healing enough when dps classes did entirely stupid crap or tanks bit off more then they could chew. If you learn your classes and play correctly and use the dodge mechanic and other tools to avoid damage then the game will be a breeze for your groups. If not you still have some guardian absorbs and ele healing to help keep you alive when you couldnt avoid something by chance.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Redemp

     

     

     STOP!

     

     

     

     

    Before you reply any further ,  go read Gestalt's post , please.

    ** To slow, it's on Page 4 now.

     

    You´re death wrong, it was still on page 1... different settings give people a different ammount of posts/page, its 40 in my case.

     

    But you´re right too, everyone should read Gestalts post. I do not totally agree with it, but it very much describes very much what is required.

     

    Still thinking that the tools in the group decide what tactics will be used.  So people may need to switch out skills before certain fights.  But every combination of classes can survive and beat a dungeon, as long as the players are willing to addapt their class to the attack plan. Ans tactics are willing to addapt their tactics to the players abbilities.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    I'm sure some people will "LFG, looking for tank" "LFG Looking for heals", etc..., out of habit and not knowing the game.

    The combination of professions that make up a party don't really mean much in this game. The most important thing is to have smart, adaptable team mates who work well with others. I don't know how you advertise that? "LFG, two more, smart team players only"?

    I don't know. Since everything but trait point allocation can be changed outside of combat, and traits with in each line offer versatility for different build types, a player who knows there profession can fill a number of roles tailored to an individiual situation.

    If a Dungeon is known to have encounters that need a particular function, you might see something like "LFG, Need another player willing to spec for knock downs", or "Looking for someone able to spec for condition removal", etc... It's not as cut and dry as "Looking for support", or "Looking for Control".

    Five smart, adaptable players could all be of the same profession and still do well in a Dungeon run, if they can work well together and adjust their strategies and builds on the fly.

    There is going to be a learning curve on how best to approach Dungeons in the game and how best to recruit team mates. I think, in the end, people who do a lot of Dungeon runs will build a friend's list around people they've been comfortable doing runs with in the past and a "black list" of people who just don't seem to be able to find a way to fit in. More casual Dungeoneers will probably just open up a call for "LFG, have two, need three more", assemble a pug and see what they can do with it. If there is a specific need, people may ask for someone who can fulfill that need, but there may be a number of professions able to spec skills and traits needed to fill that need.

     

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    Basically haha. Many classes do get some sort of control/support mixed in though which helps out.  In the end, not having support/control of some sort will make it much harder to do stuff. Its less that there is not 'trinity' in this game, and more so its balanced to make people stand more of a chance on their own and clutch on the 'downed' aspect to make up for it a bit. 

     

    If your not doing support/control at all, your just making things very difficult, everyone should be providing it to some degree.

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