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As me and my buddies were working our way though the first few instances we would advertise for people who had never run the instance before. About half the time those who joined would ask, why? Because we wanted to experience and learn the instance for ourselves the first time. We wanted to be surprised by the boss and fail a few times and have to figure it out. We were also searching high and low for the lore objects and found all of them without outside help.
These runs were genuinely the most fun I have had in a game in a long, long time.
People really need to learn to chill out and enjoy themselves. It is a game after all.
All die, so die well.
I haven't seen this sort of behavior (thankfully). The only elitism I've witnessed has been isolated to cabals (as where it should be).
I try to make my own groups. As a healer... its easy to get a rag-tag group together. DPSs are a dime a dozen. There seems to always be at least 1 tank looking. In fact, its been a breath of fresh air coming from FF14 where everything worthwhile requires a full group - and therefore finding a group can take at least 1-2 hrs.
Yesterday I had some d-bag tell me to list all of my current active and passive skills for him before I would be allowed to tank for the group. I had already done Ankh like six times, and even with a lazy healer I could tank with no problem.
I laughed at him and told him to pick someone else, that I was here to have fun not argue with spreadsheet players.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by Iselin If "everyone" does not win then "everyone" goes and does something else with their leisure time that is more enjoyable.
This is idiotic. If you don't win, you do something else? Seriously? Just because i didn't "win" at having the job that pays the most or the most beautiful girl, i should kill myself? Just because my D-league softball team loses a lot, i shouldn't play? Sorry, you may do that, but for me - no, thanks.
If i don't win, I still enjoy what i'm doing and still have fun at it. Sure, I try to improve and do better, but i don't give up or quit just because i didn't win. Nor do i expect to be given the same reward as those that did win.
I've never been - or have been interested in being - in a "hardcore" guild in an MMO. Never. So I haven't killed the top content first and I haven't had the top DPS or biggest epeen or whatever. But that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy what I do. I do. And guess what, i may not be the best, but I also like to think I'm not the worst. So I like my rewards and achievements to reflect both of those facts - I think i should achieve more than the idiots and get better rewards than the idiots, while at the same time, I am fully ok with the fact that the people who are better than me achieve more than me and are rewarded better than me.
If you want to bring absolutely nothing to a group and still win and still be rewarded, i'm sorry, i want no part of grouping with you. And I'm not elitist, I just don't like grouping with people that have no personal accountability and leech off others. Which brings me to my next point...
How is it that it's ok for you to NOT want "elitists" in your group (or game), but it's NOT ok for them to not want YOU?
Personally, I'm for "live and let live". If people don't want me in their group, I don't need to be there. They're paying for the game, they can play with whoever they want. I'll get other people that share MY mindset and play the game with them. Really, I suggest you do the same.
No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.
Why do you think all MMOs have personal story quest lines that are all about you being the hero? Did you think those quests were just for you? lol. It's fantasy. And part of that fantasy is that you're the hero and always, always, unltimately the winner.
Your "winners and losers" garbabge is just regurgitated Ayn Rand real word corporate garbage applied to gaming: to interactive entertainment that is barely different from reading a boook or watching a film. I suppose some people wnated to be just like Voldemort ( or at least claim so just to get some attention ) but 99.9% of us identified with Harry. Think of Voldemort as an NPC and maybe you'll start to get it.
Elitists are jerks. And the honest ones admit it and call themselves just that at their min/max website.
There are other MMOs out there (hint: they have gearscore add-ons...sometimes they're not even add-ons) and FPS games with "ladders" that cater to you... go play those. The sooner you guys get bored with TSW and leave, the sooner the real TSW community can have fun playing with other people who get it.
Originally posted by milllll TSW was the last straw for me. I have been playing MMO's since UO and for the last couple of years each new game has failed to hold my attention more than a month or two. After much soul searching I have come to the conclusion that it's not the game design as much as it is the "new" generation that plays them. No matter what the game devs try to design they can't dictate how people will play their game or interact with each other. Time to find a new hobby..
I have a theory. One many will find objectionable. A theory that surely isn't true in 100% of all cases, but I believe is more true than false:
The dumbing down of MMOs is driven by the desire to open up "the good stuff" to children, because previously it was not really possible unless they were carried.
Generally speaking, "end game", or "really good stuff", in gear was funnelled too tightly to a segment of the playerbase with too much time to burn on their asses in a chair, leaving too many out of the picture, a great many of them sub-17 yrs of age.
The vast majority of end game raiding guilds were organized and run by those at least 18+ due to the long hours involved, most often at night, even into the wee hours of the morning, or weekends. Most kids are in bed long before a raid was over.
"In the Day", being in my case WoW, the Onyxia/Molten Core/Blackwing Lair era, Raiding, "best gear" (purples actually meant something then as they were quite difficult to acquire) required massive amounts of people management. Indeed, along the lines of what is required at a job.
In fairness, probably one valid reason for making things easier perhaps. Depending on the game I suppose.
Those were FORTY man raids, run over and over. To get to bosses not yet beat, then past them to the next one, then on to FARMING said instance once all boss fights were practiced and known for MONTHS as various guildies of each class competed for rolls or DKP bidding of potential (not guaranteed) drops of signature class specific gear.
The most hard core, truly LEET players in MMOs, bar none, without question, were your Guild Masters and RAID LEADERS (the successful ones) who beat those instances. Who set it up, who organized it, who rode herd on their raid teams and guildies beating down the doors to get a spot on the team, who researched boss fights and made sure people were prepared and trained, and who then ran the Raids for their people. The Voice in Vent that called the shots, made it happen for everyone.
Not the button monkies mashing buttons and macros once in front of bosses.
The whining, the crying, the infighting, the drama, the conflict, the pissy-pants arguing that had to be managed and controlled, coupled with the organization, practice, and training of raid TEAMS to beat those challenges, forty player strong. . .
. . . is way out of the league of 99.9% of any kids to handle.
And that's not a poke at kids. It's just a fact of Life. Kids don't have the ability yet to understand how to deal with that level of organizational and people management challenge. They will someday (hopefully), but not "today" as a kid.
But there are a LOT of kids with a whole lot of disposable income nowadays. Amounts of money I could only have fantasized about when I was a kid. lmao. Seriously, it's really nuts.
Notice how Purple is the new blue? And everything is oh so much more accessible with less effort, contributing to the expectations of the "new generation" of mmo player.
Just a theory anyway, and no offense to any kids. I get along with them well actually. Heh-heh.
In my mind the largest problem many Dev houses have nowadays is a broad-spectrum approach to selecting a client-base. I think EVE broke from that mold a bit taking a targetted approach to what kind of gamer they wanted as clients, and went that route, instead of trying to be everything to everyone.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Originally posted by Iselin No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.
LOL. I love how you say that you don't need a wall of text then you post one. I know how to read though, so it's not a problem for me.
I'm actually not going to respond with my opinion at all this time. You say "it's a game". I agree 100%. And so I've googled the definition of "game". Here it is:
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STOFavourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, FirefallCurrently Playing: EQ2, BDO
Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by Iselin No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.
Oh goody. We're getting to the nitty gritty where word definitions say it all:
cooperation, co-operation [k????p??re???n]
I underlined the important part that elitists don't get for you.
Originally posted by Iselin Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by Iselin No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.
That's rather irrelevant to this discussion. ALL players in TSW "assist" NPCs and ALL players in TSW "co-operate" in order to defeat the most challenging encounters. There isn't really an option to not assist NPCs and there isn't an option to solo nightmare dungeons. Just because someone people don't want to co-operate with me or you, doesn't mean that they aren't co-operating with someone else.
For example, if you were to ask for my co-operation at ganking noobs, i would refuse. Doesn't mean that I'm elitist, just that i don't want play with you because I don't like how you play the game or the things you choose to do. Well.. i guess maybe that DOES make me elitist. But yeah.. i don't want to play with assholes or idiots. And depending on my mood, sometimes I don't want to play with people that don't speak russian or that don't use assault rifles or that wear those ridiculous bunny slippers or that aren't in my guild or that don't know you can use passives from non-equipped weapons. I mean.. ffs.. if we can't choose who we play the game with, what freedom is left?
Finally, in my experience - and like I said, i've never actually been in a hardcore elite guild myself, but from what i've seen - the "elitist assholes" that you and i both dislike, actually tend to have accomplished more via co-operation than the rest of the population - including me, including you. So yeah, the whole "co-operate" thing doesn't really prove any point that I can see.
Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by Iselin Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by Iselin No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.
It only seems irrelevant to you because you're not getting it. You're saying since it's a game, there are winners and losers and you're referring to other players as winners or losers. Winners being the "good players" and "losers" being the ones you don't want to group with.
I'm saying winning is all of us--all players--against the bad guys--at least in PVE and this is a PVE dungeon elitism discussion.
I'm saying I don't want to have anything to do with the content locust who want no one but top-notch uber-experienced players in their group and want to do it as fast as humanly possible. I want to group with normal people who may or may not be the best...who may be running that particular dungeon for the first time. Those are the real MMOers who don't think of this as an e-sport FPS-like quickie. I enjoy people who RP (even though I'm not an RPer myself) and want to absorb the atmosphere along the way. If their technique or build is deficient I'll gladly try to help them improve. That is cooperative game playing.
When you refer to players as winners and losers and ratrionalize it on the basis of competitiveness you're just showing your bias. Whether you have played WOW or not is irrelevant. The fact is that those of us who have, refer to that attitude as the WOW mentality because that is where it is most prevalent.
There are clearly no winners in this discussion.
Originally posted by Iselin I'm saying winning is all of us--all players--against the bad guys--at least in PVE and this is a PVE dungeon elitism discussion.
Right, and so, in order for some people to beat the baddest bad guys, some of the unskiled players need to be left behind, otherwise NO ONE kills the bad guys and the bad guys win (we lose). So, if you want to co-operate as a whole population with the bad guys dying, the best thing to do is keep the bad players out of those fights until they get good enough to beat the bad guys.
At least that's how i think about it. If a group is more successful without me in it, i'd rather sit out than see the group fail. To me that is the ultimate spirit of co-operation - personal sacrifice for the greater good. Assuming of course that "killing the bad guys" is indeed the greater good as you put it. If the greater good is you getting stuff while your group fails because you're not pulling your weight.. well.. then it's a different story.
To bring it back to TSW, i'll give you a very current example:
I'm currently in Egypt, in the first zone. Even though I have enough SP to use QL10 everything, I am still in QL6 gear. The reason I am in QL6 gear is because I like to experience all the content "on-level" without triviliazing it for myself. So i only use the items that come from the zone that I am actually in. So, I'm in QL6. Also, I have no freaking idea how to do Ankh. I've not been in it yet and I have no idea what awaits me there. So, given the above, I would NEVER just join a Ankh group that is looking for an experienced player. Because if i did, I may lead that group to failure. That is in MY hands. Once i decide to run Ankh, i will either find someone willing to teach me the encounters or I will go with a group that knows that it's my first time and is ok with me learning it on the fly. Furthermore, i will find out what the expected gear level is for the dungeon and ensure that i meet the requirements.
In my opinion, if every player took responsibility for themselves, we wouldn't even have these super-paranoid groups that are so afraid of inviting random people for fear of failure.
It is a game. That's precisely the point, it's not a show or amusement park ride. It is a game that has challenges that need to be overcome with skill and co-operation. If you're not interested in improving your skills or overcoming those challenges, that's entirely your playstyle choice. But then that's not anyone else's problem.
Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by Iselin I'm saying winning is all of us--all players--against the bad guys--at least in PVE and this is a PVE dungeon elitism discussion.
Right, and so, in order for some people to beat the baddest bad guys, some of the unskiled players need to be left behind, otherwise NO ONE kills the bad guys and the bad guys win (we lose).
An interesting thought here though is:
I've found a repeating refrain from "skilled speed clearers": They totally lack any degree of mental flexibility or adaptability. I consider that a primary set of attributes to someone "skilled", as opposed to a button monkey operating off of a pre-programmed script fueled by builds / class layouts copied from spoilers.
As an example, I was looking to complete one of the mission challenges in Guild Wars. I've got my Heros layed out as I think best, but I'm relatively new to the game so I don't have all the "trick builds". I've learned along the way, they are what they are, I'm what I am with the skills I have.
I'm about to go in when a LIVE PLAYER comes up to me and wants to do the mission as well. Sounds like an experienced player as he asks how I'm setup. I'm straight up with him, tell him I've never done the mission before, but we should be OK with TWO real live players plus some Heros, yes?
So in we go. And within one minute I can see the train wreck coming from a mile away.
He's NOT playing with me. He's not playing with the group, that being me and several Hero NPC "pets". He's not trying to play WITH the group, the capabilities of the group as configured.
He's rushing forward face first into stuff as if he had the group he was used to with him (I guess), figuring it would all work out somehow.
Zero game play representing skill whatsoever. No situational awareness. Just blind rush it forward with the group trying to keep up with "Mr. Skillz".
Two wipes because Mr. Leet was incapable of any action or thought pattern outside the programmed routine he was used to, and the programmed setup he usually operated under.
After the second wipe his conclusion to the situation was it wasn't doable with the current setup, we needed real players, and heros with a certain build.
No attempt at all to change conduct, to adapt to the situation to defeat the pulls and scenario, to leverage the personnel and skills that were available to clear the challenge right then, in one successful session. Nothing. Just try to speed clear it using cookie cutter strat/build X from a recipe book, and if it fails, well, can't be done. lolololololol. Really sad.
So I excused myself from the group, reformed with my heroes again, went in and beat the scenario myself. With "junk" Heros, and my pathetic inventory of elite skills to choose from.
Because I tried, had to overcome several wipes myself, but used my head, was adaptable, made clever pulls and backstepping to string packs out, etc.
In other words: Played the game, actually fought the scenarios using my head and LOOKING at my opponent's setup, placement, and conduct.
Leave the "leet content locusts" to play with themselves (play on words intended). They paid their money, let them . . . fiddle around in the corner by themselves.
Ignore them and concentrate on finding players of a like mind you are comfortable with, and work well with, and go enjoy the game.
That's what it's for.
I don't play with elitists if i know they are elistist. Just like i dont' associate with members of any other group that shoves its idea of right down my throat. So i guess i'm an anti-elitist elitist. v_v
There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to get on, do a couple of speed runs and get off again because you just don't have 5 hours to spend goofing around. And frankly, I'd appreciate it if a group i was considering joining said just that. We tell people habitually 'we're just spastically flailing around, so if you are burning for a focused experiance, find another group, we're exploring and chatting' when they group with us - in whatever game. Or we say 'we're chainpulling all this stuff to gather up stuff and xp! if you don't like that, we're not going to get our feelings hurt if you wanna go do something else.' Just be polite about it and everyone can go off still friendly.
What i'd like to see more of in TSW is 'Polaris group forming, novices welcome, death is inevitable, lets try it anyway.' How does anyone expect people who haven't done it before to learn if no one is willing to group with people who haven't done it eighty-two times?
I don't expect to finish it the first time, nor the fourth. But i'd like to experiance the content, not just blow it off because people won't group with me because i'm a 'noob'. I joined on an RP server in the hopes that we'd get some roleplayers *playing* their elitist selves struggling with us lil'ol green horns. so far - not so much. But i'm hoping. And when i get to be not so green in the horn, I'll be there, still trying to do polaris with other greenhorns, and maybe someday we'll get it done. I'm not in a rush.
I am surprized it took this long. But get used to stuff like this cuz all themeparks/wow-clones that are solely based on gear grinds usually end up this way, people just wanna get the stuff done and not have to deal with asshats who don't know what they are doing. It just makes it more stressful than it needs to be. I kinda wish mmo's would move away from the raiding endgame, mainly because the game has no more use. An example of proper mmorpg endgame was dark age of camelot, you had pve raids, then the raid gear actually had a use other than more carrot on a stick raid content, after raiding you could go pvp with it, take over keeps, castles and fight the other 2 factions in a huge open zone. I haven't seen any mmorpg mimic that perfect endgame yet to this date. It seems they are either pure pve raiding boringness, that somehow tricks the casual cattle (I view casuals as little more than cattle personally) into keeping a sub open to run 1 raid a week. Or its pve based where the game iks a pure gankfest with no real purpose to the pvp.. mortal online and the like. Nearest thing to daoc's endgame will be guild wars 2, you raid/pve for gear, then go pvp with it for meaningful server wide bonuses. IMO seperating pve from pvp was the biggest mistake mmo devs have made.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Funny that one poster actually said "This isn't an Amusement Park" made me LOL
Seems I started a fiery debate !!
I was just surprised at how there were *already* content locust groups, as for me personally TSW is one of the first games I havent felt compelled to "rush" to end game, and instead of been enjoying and soaking up all the content I can.
Like many have said in this thread, I do understand the camp of people who want to drive and be at the top, just seems odd to see it for 5-man groups, and not raiding end game etc.
AGain, I have had my time wiht that mindset, and chased the end game raiding, and I dont feel I am a player who wants to be "carried" or not bother to learn. Quite the opposite. I want to learn the game and have fun while doing it. I just know enough to know that my first attempts are going to have some bumps, and want to avoid people who cannot tolerate learning or make the game into a job.
Its more fun for me to learn and develop counters to boss mechanics for example as opposed to watching the video of someone else who already did and blindly following someone else's patterns. To me the fun is in the experience and developing your own methods of handling stuff.
Anyway lots of good stuff in here ... !! keep it coming.
Originally posted by sycofiend Funny that one poster actually said "This isn't an Amusement Park" made me LOL
I said it wasn't one, not that it i didn't have one!
But yeah.. even if you use the amusement park example... there are rollercoasters - which everyone enjoys equally and then there is whack-a-mole. Everyone enjoys whack-a-mole, but only the person with the most skill gets the giant stuffed kitten. But that person can never get the giant stuffed kitten on their own, they need at least another 4 players to play in order for 1 to win.
Analogies... they're like puns - you know you shouldn't, but you just can't help yourself
Originally posted by BadSpock Bad design brings out the worst in players.
So when GW2 launches and has the most caustic playerbase that will rival LoL, can we bring this up again?