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Best MOBA game poll

13

Comments

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    The only problem with that post is that it makes a huge assumption - that the average skill level of a LoL player and a DotA player are the same, which is not true at all.

     

    The reason League's Platinum is only 0.2% is because much of the playerbase hasn't even made it above bronze (which would also be most of the people crying about skill caps on these forums).  After I hit 1800, I made a new account and dropped myself to the so-called 'elo hell' - at that level, you're playing with and against people that are straight autistic.

     

    Even in the lower rung of HoN's rankings and DotA ladders, players were at least able to conceal their retardedness.  I found that low-ranked players adopted a defensive playstyle and were able to easily evade most evadable skillshots (like Pudge/Devourer).  Hell, some of them actually bought wards.  Compare this to League, where the people in sub 1000 elo leave themselves open to Blitzcrank grabs (if the person playing him wasn't autistic as well) and wards are an unknown item except for trolling.

     

    The truth is that a HoN / DotA player has more to worry about at any given time than a LoL player, and must have more awareness.  When you're farming in HoN / DotA, you compete with the enemy team's denying skill.  When they last-hit, you have the opportunity to deny them, if you had the skill to both deny and last-hit reasonably well.  Unlike LoL where you have summoner spells that can save you in the case of bad positioning / ganks, you need to be able to predict a gank 30 seconds before it happens if you want a chance to survive against a few of the beastly gankers.

     

    HoN / DotA doesn't just punish you for mistakes more than LoL - it rewards you for playing your best.  Being better at last-hitting means you can deny your opponents gold and xp; killing an enemy means you can set them back so they can't rush certain item builds; level design encourages clever use of the dynamic jungle to ambush and escape enemies, while LoL's static brush mechanic is not a suitable replacement;  the concept of 'tanky DPS' is thrown out in most cases in DotA so fights are much more deadly and about landing of skillshots versus stacking of defensive stats. 

     

    There are way more opportunities for a player's skill to shine in HoN / DotA.  That's just how it works.  The post you quote relies on the assumption that your average DotA and LoL players are at the same skill level, which is completely false.  You can't compare percentages and numbers when DotA / HoN has more mechanics involved than LoL.  Therefore, you can't say that LoL has an equal or higher "skill cap" when DotA / HoN just flat-out requires more skill to perform at an equivalent level.

     

    Take it from me, and if that's not good enough, take it from this former WoW nerd: HoN has a higher skill cap, but in the end, most players will never reach high enough for this to actually matter.  It's common knowledge among those of us who are plat.

     

     

  • GeevesGeeves SydneyPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Geeves

    Meh. I can't be bothered explaining again how and why you're missing the point.


     

    Good, because you are no good at it, neither is your friend and his circular, fallacious reasoning - class B CANNOT have same passing grade as class A.

    Can't respond to the rest of the post?

    I'm sure there'll be some vague comment about why it's not worth it, or perhaps a baseless assertion that the reasoning is faulty. No arguments based on logic though. A bridge too far that one.

    MUNDO!!

  • Tonin109Tonin109 ??, CAPosts: 201Member

    i dont know this kind of game , is it like Warcraft III ? like you make a hero and soldiers to fight another hero?

    i watched some videos on youtube but kinda confused only videos of guys fighting each other

    image

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,866Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Geeves

    Can't respond to the rest of the post?

    Respond to what? I pointed out fundamental error in his theory which disproves every single line that is following as all the conclusions are made on that false premise.


    What more you ask?


    Honestly, reading this Jacob guy on forums you linked, he is fairly weak in mind. Just read the replies on forums and there are people posting many valid, reasoned objections and then you just read his illogical, laughable replies...

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,987Member

    its smite hands down!the only reason the poll is low is because it is in closed beta!

  • GeevesGeeves SydneyPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by Khaeros

    The only problem with that post is that it makes a huge assumption - that the average skill level of a LoL player and a DotA player are the same, which is not true at all.

     

    The reason League's Platinum is only 0.2% is because much of the playerbase hasn't even made it above bronze (which would also be most of the people crying about skill caps on these forums).  After I hit 1800, I made a new account and dropped myself to the so-called 'elo hell' - at that level, you're playing with and against people that are straight autistic.

     

    Even in the lower rung of HoN's rankings and DotA ladders, players were at least able to conceal their retardedness.  I found that low-ranked players adopted a defensive playstyle and were able to easily evade most evadable skillshots (like Pudge/Devourer).  Hell, some of them actually bought wards.  Compare this to League, where the people in sub 1000 elo leave themselves open to Blitzcrank grabs (if the person playing him wasn't autistic as well) and wards are an unknown item except for trolling.

     

    The truth is that a HoN / DotA player has more to worry about at any given time than a LoL player, and must have more awareness.  When you're farming in HoN / DotA, you compete with the enemy team's denying skill.  When they last-hit, you have the opportunity to deny them, if you had the skill to both deny and last-hit reasonably well.  Unlike LoL where you have summoner spells that can save you in the case of bad positioning / ganks, you need to be able to predict a gank 30 seconds before it happens if you want a chance to survive against a few of the beastly gankers.

     

    HoN / DotA doesn't just punish you for mistakes more than LoL - it rewards you for playing your best.  Being better at last-hitting means you can deny your opponents gold and xp; killing an enemy means you can set them back so they can't rush certain item builds; level design encourages clever use of the dynamic jungle to ambush and escape enemies, while LoL's static brush mechanic is not a suitable replacement;  the concept of 'tanky DPS' is thrown out in most cases in DotA so fights are much more deadly and about landing of skillshots versus stacking of defensive stats. 

     

    There are way more opportunities for a player's skill to shine in HoN / DotA.  That's just how it works.  The post you quote relies on the assumption that your average DotA and LoL players are at the same skill level, which is completely false.  You can't compare percentages and numbers when DotA / HoN has more mechanics involved than LoL.  Therefore, you can't say that LoL has an equal or higher "skill cap" when DotA / HoN just flat-out requires more skill to perform at an equivalent level.

     

    Take it from me, and if that's not good enough, take it from this former WoW nerd: HoN has a higher skill cap, but in the end, most players will never reach high enough for this to actually matter.  It's common knowledge among those of us who are plat.

    The post doesn't say anything about DotA at all. All it says is that 0.2% of the playerbase is playing LoL at close to a professional level, or close to the skillcap. The game has a more than big enough sample size to draw on, and that's a small enough number to reliably assert that LoL has a very high skill cap. If it didn't, that number would be higher. It really is that simple.

    The great unwashed don't factor in to it. That there are players of all skill levels playing the game should be obvious, but it's those at the top that this analysis is aimed at. The point is that there aren't that many players at the top because it's not easy to get there.

    The rest of your post is just meaningless comparisons between specific mechanics, personal anecdotes and opinions. I could start a post of all the things that LoL has that DotA doesn't have, but it would be pointless because there really isn't a way to compare the countless number of contextual factors that go into challenge and depth in MOBAs. LoL throws a lot of things that make DotA a deep game out of the window, but it adds plenty of things that add it's own type of depth. It makes the games similar with completely different areas of focus. That's why direct comparisons don't work.

    I'm not ragging on DotA btw. (haven't played much of HoN) It's a great game in it's own right. I understand why people enjoy what DotA offers more than LoL. I just find a lot of what's argued about League of Legends is argued in ignorance.

    Anyway that thread goes on and addresses a similar argument.

    ----

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bumstead View Post
    unfortunately Jakob, the argument for DOTA being more difficult than LoL is not based on a passing rate rather its based on content. you have a well thought out argument but using your example what would be compared is the difficulty of the questions on the test not the overall passing rate. the "passing rate" in both games are still about the same as one team must win and one team must lose.

    and in order to compare the "questions on the test" one must have taken both tests. IE played both games extensively. which you may or may not have.

    I expected this response. Your premise is accurate, your conclusion is not.

    My argument is based on content, implicitly. You correctly state that the passing rate on a test depends on the difficulty of a test: that is to say, a lower passing rate means a harder test, which means the content of the test is harder. The "passing rate" for LOL is such that less than 0.2% of the community "passed" that is mastered the game. That is the difficulty of the test in relation to its own player-base. That indicates an extremely difficult test. This passing rate is evaluated with a base value corresponding to the average skill of the player-base. (This is how elo functions as a system).

    I acknowledge directly the fact that my argument does not comparatively assess LOL against DOTA. The comparison of "taking both tests" is a flawed concept. That is why all college classes are graded in comparison to that class, your grade is based on how you perform in relation to the others taking the same test at the same time. I assess the difficulty of LOL in relation to LOL's playerbase. The difficulty of DOTA can only be assessed in relation to its playerbase. Unless a rigorously structured experiment is conducted, no comparison can be made that isn't just anecdotal evidence. These experiments cannot function, as they require hundreds of people to spend hundreds of hours learning both games, then comparing them against each-other. Statistically, bodies of 1200 people or more randomly selected approximate the population from which they are selected with more than a 95% confidence rating.

    the passing rate in both games does not have to be the same. The passing rate for the same game does not have to be the same for different regions or times. That is the beauty of the elo system: it does not favor a normal distribution, it favors a distribution where there is a large majority who are worse than the starting value, then fewer and fewer people towards the positive extreme. It is possible for a large amount of people to be significantly better than average and therefore climb to that value. That is to say, there is no cap on how many people can get to 2000 elo. the percentage of people "passing" LOL isn't set like a curved class would be. It's likely that the number of people playing on a competitive level is small, but it's not necessary at all.

    The passing rates of EU West, EU East and the US server was different. It still is at the start of season 2. EU west currently has 88 players above 2k elo. The US server has 102. EU East has 19. these passing rates are vastly different. your assumption that the passing rate of DOTA is similar to the passing rate of LOL is not a valid assumption to make. There is nothing to indicate that it is true.

    Showing that the passing rate of DOTA is similar to lol's passing rate suggests that the difficulty of the games is comparable. that is not intuitive, but it is the statistically probable case. If a group of 1200 random gamers are selected from the group of "all computer gamers" they will approximate the body of gamers with a 95% confidence rating. due to the large sizes of the bodies of people involved in these two games, there is nothing that would indicate that one game population is "more skilled" than the other. To the contrary, it is extremely improbable the larger the player-bases are that they differ in skill level. As gamers, their socio-economic backgrounds must be similar, to have free time, and the access to playing long hours of online games.

    Claiming that a large group of people is existentially better/more skilled than another is an elitist argument. These arguments are extremely slippery slopes, when they are not founded in factual claims. it is simply your personal opinion that the DOTA community is more skilled than the LOL community. It is statistically very improbable that your opinion is a statistical reality.

    TL;DR: you are wrong. the passing rating shows the difficulty of the content of the test when large groups of people are tested, as the groups tested are statistically extremely likely to be similarly skilled.

    ----

    What IS interesting is that soon enough the two games will be able to be compared in this area (as DotA 2 will have a similar matchmaking system). I've no doubt it will be statistically proven that DotA has an extremely high skill cap as well.

    MUNDO!!

  • GeevesGeeves SydneyPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by Tonin109

    i dont know this kind of game , is it like Warcraft III ? like you make a hero and soldiers to fight another hero?

    i watched some videos on youtube but kinda confused only videos of guys fighting each other

    DotA, HoN and LoL are similar to WC3 except you don't control the units, just a singular hero. The genre takes the RPG aspect of WC3 and expands on it while greatly reducing the required level of micromanagement.

    MUNDO!!

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,866Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Geeves

    All it says is that 0.2% of the playerbase is playing LoL at close to a professional level, or close to the skillcap. The game has a more than big enough sample size to draw on, and that's a small enough number to reliably assert that LoL has a very high skill cap. If it didn't, that number would be higher. It really is that simple.

    Yeah, because picking top 0.2% in any sample you provide just proves about anything...


    There is no point quoting more of similarly retarded arguments like this guy is making.

  • GeevesGeeves SydneyPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Originally posted by Geeves

    All it says is that 0.2% of the playerbase is playing LoL at close to a professional level, or close to the skillcap. The game has a more than big enough sample size to draw on, and that's a small enough number to reliably assert that LoL has a very high skill cap. If it didn't, that number would be higher. It really is that simple.

    Yeah, because picking top 0.2% in any sample you provide just proves about anything...


    There is no point in quoting more of similarly retarded arguments like this guy is making.

    You do realize that shallow games are mastered by more than 0.2% of the playerbase don't you?

    You're not keeping up. You haven't been for a while.

    MUNDO!!

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,866Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by GeevesYou do realize that shallow games are mastered by more than 0.2% of the playerbase don't you?

    And you do not realize that you can still pick up 0.2% among those who have mastered said shallow game...

    Truly pointless discussion :)


    Example:

    You have a sample of 100k MOBA players and you are about to organize a competition. You cannot invite all 100k of them but you only invite TOP 1000, which is 1% of your total sample...or you can invite TOP 500 only, which is 0.5%...or TOP 100 which is 0.1%...

    Now do the same with different samples sizes. See, means about just nothing.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Geeves, the thread said this:

     

    "The burden of evidence now lies with the DOTA crowd. can you prove less than 0.2% of the dota-population have mastered dota on a competitive level? Or rather, if you prefer absolute terms, can you prove that less than about 300 people can play DOTA at a competitive tournament level?"

     

    In the end, this comparison means nothing.  The value '0.2%' takes into account all the autists in 'elo hell', so why would I compare DotA players to it?  You say that we're only talking about people that play competitively, but the thread is directly comparing percentages that take into account all LoL players.  Proving that 200 people play DotA competitively means nothing, especially if the base game requires more skill to perform at an equivalent level.  Just because you compare well to a bunch of autists who play Evelynn doesn't mean that you're good.

     

    It comes down to one thing.  Which requires more skill?

     

    Last-hitting enemy creeps

    Last-hitting enemy creeps while last-hitting your own at the same time, with the added threat of having your enemies stealing your kills

     

    The answer's pretty clear.  (And let's be honest - most games are won by the participation and protection of carries / heroes that scale well with farm, so farming is probably the single most important mechanic to master in the game).

  • GeevesGeeves SydneyPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    Originally posted by GeevesYou do realize that shallow games are mastered by more than 0.2% of the playerbase don't you?

    And you do not realize that you can still pick up 0.2% among those who have mastered said shallow game...

    Truly pointless discussion :)


    Example:

    You have a sample of 100k MOBA players and you are about to organize a competition. You cannot invite all 100k of them but you only invite TOP 1000, which is 1% of your total sample...or you can invite TOP 500 only, which is 0.5%...or TOP 100 which is 0.1%...

    Now do the same with different samples sizes. See, means about just nothing.

    The point is that in a shallow game you wouldn't be able to differentiate between your top .5 or top 1%. Who's the worlds best tic tac toe player? LoL is able to provide that level of differentiation because there is depth that can be exploited by the best of the best.

    MUNDO!!

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,866Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by GeevesThe point is that in a shallow game you wouldn't be able to differentiate between your top .5 or top 1%.

    Sure I can and I even provided an example how it is done. It is in fact done same way in any competitive play or selection process - you have to draw an artificial line somewhere and then % you get is only a matter of sample size.


    Same as answer above.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,866Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Khaeros

    It comes down to one thing.  Which requires more skill? Last-hitting enemy creepsLast-hitting enemy creeps while last-hitting your own at the same time, with the added threat of having your enemies stealing your kills The answer's pretty clear.  (And let's be honest - most games are won by the participation and protection of carries / heroes that scale well with farm, so farming is probably the single most important mechanic to master in the game).

    It is not only that. You need to consider 2 other major factors - gold loss upon death, hero design and balance.

    There are no heroes in LoL that can "1-hit" you at 7-8 min mark which means more dynamics in early game as well as more emphasis on team work.

  • GeevesGeeves SydneyPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by Khaeros

    Geeves, the thread said this:

     

    "The burden of evidence now lies with the DOTA crowd. can you prove less than 0.2% of the dota-population have mastered dota on a competitive level? Or rather, if you prefer absolute terms, can you prove that less than about 300 people can play DOTA at a competitive tournament level?"

     

    In the end, this comparison means nothing.  The value '0.2%' takes into account all the autists in 'elo hell', so why would I compare DotA players to it?  You say that we're only talking about people that play competitively, but the thread is directly comparing percentages that take into account all LoL players.  Proving that 200 people play DotA competitively means nothing, especially if the base game requires more skill to perform at an equivalent level.  Just because you compare well to a bunch of autists who play Evelynn doesn't mean that you're good.

     

    It comes down to one thing.  Which requires more skill?

     

    Last-hitting enemy creeps

    Last-hitting enemy creeps while last-hitting your own at the same time, with the added threat of having your enemies stealing your kills

     

    The answer's pretty clear.  (And let's be honest - most games are won by the participation and protection of carries / heroes that scale well with farm, so farming is probably the single most important mechanic to master in the game).

    I should have been more clear. The thread said nothing about comparing LoL to DotA (which is what you're doing). The line before was the critical one...

    does this make lol harder than dota or dota harder than lol? None of this shows comparatively one way or another. However, the myth that lol has a low skill-cap can be dismissed. It's simply not true.

    That's all I was trying to disprove. LoL is a shallow game for noobs. It's not. That's a fact.

    The comments about the LoL community are pure anecdotal rubbish. There are bads in both games. The playerbase being lower skilled in LoL isn't something you're ever going to be able to come close to proving. It's just a mantra DotA fans like to repeat.

    If you think the entire game (genre) boils down to last hitting creeps it probably explains why you don't like LoL. Not trying to be snide either. LoL places less emphasis on that part of the game. I like that because I think the mechanical act of last hitting is the most boring part of a MOBA. I find manipulating space to get my character into position to successfully fulfil a role for my team the enjoyable part of the genre. For me, LoL does that better because...

    • There are more skillshots
    • There are more active abilities (every champion bar one has 4 active ablities)
    • There are more position manipulation abilities
    • Cooldowns and mana costs are lower meaning those abilities are used more often
    • Most abilities that are interesting and engaging for both player and opponent
    • All of the above combines for dynamic, satisfying combat. The slower snowballs make that combat more interesting for longer periods
    Much of that is true for DotA as well of course, but then one could say the same about last hitting in LoL. It's an element that's more important in DotA than LoL (and there are others, repeated often and loudly by DotA fans). The bullet points are the things that LoL excels at. After that it just becomes the type of depth you prefer. In other words, it's just an opinion.

    MUNDO!!

  • GeevesGeeves SydneyPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Geeves

     

    The point is that in a shallow game you wouldn't be able to differentiate between your top .5 or top 1%.


     

    Sure I can and I even provided an example how it is done. It is in fact done same way in any competitive play or selection process - you have to draw an artificial line somewhere and then % you get is only a matter of sample size.


    Same as answer above.

    Dude it's not an ARBITRARY line at all. It's the top .2% repeatedly beating the shit out of those below them. It's not some random line in the sand drawn by Riot, they're better players because the game facilitates that level of depth.

    It's not rocket science honestly!

    PS. Going to bed.

    MUNDO!!

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,866Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Geeves

    It's not rocket science honestly!

    Yep, it indeed isn't and that's what makes it mind boggling how you can keep failing at grasping such simple principle :/

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,866Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by GeevesAll of the above combines for dynamic, satisfying combat. The slower snowballs make that combat more interesting for longer periods

    No, in fact it is what makes the game stale as there is no reason in engaging your enemy before you are both farmed up.

    And that is not an opinion, that is a fact - in LoL there is little point in early ganks as the enemy just comes back without losing anything. There is no way to win a game at 15 min mark, you just have to sit there, farm and see how the game turns out.


    I have no issue with your personal preference, up to each own, but saying that LoL is more or equally complex and dynamic is just silly and untrue.

  • Tonin109Tonin109 ??, CAPosts: 201Member
    Originally posted by Geeves
    Originally posted by Tonin109

    i dont know this kind of game , is it like Warcraft III ? like you make a hero and soldiers to fight another hero?

    i watched some videos on youtube but kinda confused only videos of guys fighting each other

    DotA, HoN and LoL are similar to WC3 except you don't control the units, just a singular hero. The genre takes the RPG aspect of WC3 and expands on it while greatly reducing the required level of micromanagement.

    thanks for the explanation, i will stick with Warcraft III :)

    image

  • Chase187666Chase187666 Caledonia, ONPosts: 138Member

    Ive really been enjoying Smite :)

    image
    image

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,987Member
    Originally posted by Chase187666

    Ive really been enjoying Smite :)

    dont bother !the others are busy(as usual)arguing on semantic!but i do agree,in the lol genre?smite and smnc are the two i like in that genre of gaming!

  • xdemonhunterxdemonhunter You dont need to knowPosts: 31Member

    This is kind hard to answer since most of the MOBA genre share quite a few features in some cases to an extent that it is pure cloning.

    With that said LoL would prolly be best for a new gamer to the genre because it is very noobie friendly and the skill cap is lower, less item customizations, no gold penalty upon death and the like.

    For a competitive player of the ones i have tried with i admit arent that many Dota would be the best bet, there are many more elements that affect game play which makes difference in skill between players really show.

    Also i got say im amazed at the dude defending that LoL has the same skill cap as Dota thats such an ignorant statment that im suprised anyone bothered replying.

  • GeevesGeeves SydneyPosts: 148Member
    Originally posted by xdemonhunter
    Also i got say im amazed at the dude defending that LoL has the same skill cap as Dota thats such an ignorant statment that im suprised anyone bothered replying.

    I said the two weren't comparable, but LoL was a deeper game than anyone gave it credit for. Got anything useful to add?

    MUNDO!!

  • rannoxrannox Tollhouse, CAPosts: 8Member

    LoL is a casual three lane action rpg that is easy to get into.

     

    Dota2 is an unforgiving thee lane Dota Style game. If you arent good to begin with, you will be hard pressed to continue playing.

     

     

    The best comparison I have ever heard: 

     

    "LoL is like Call of Duty, easy to get into, very forgiving, player base consists of many casual and pro players alike.

    Dota and Dota2 are like Counter-Strike. Harder to get into, unforgiving to new players, most of the player base is "wanna be pros" and pros, with far less casual players than the previous". 

     

     

    This leads to more casual players (Majority) enjoying "LoL" and more competetive (Minority) players enjoying "Dota1/2"

     

    Of course there are always exceptions 

  • grax817grax817 Crowley, TXPosts: 14Member
    I do not believe that you have played League of Legends for longer then a couple games. For anyone stating you dont have to manage gold flow in your lane by denying the enemy gold while getting yourself the last hit is wrong on every level. As for dota 2 ive played for a month and it is a little more difficult only becuase i was used to LoL.
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