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Poll: Do you prefer PvPing with or without a downed mechanic?

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Comments

  • GoruduGorudu Yale, MIPosts: 79Member

    I like it. I enjoy the fact that you have to finish someone, or be careful around downed people. It makes you pay attention. If you decided to get close to a downed engineer in the middle of a fight, he might just blow up your face and make you lose that fight. It makes you think.

  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYPosts: 5,724Administrator Uncommon
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by otinanai123

    PvP should be both about winning and "the kill".

    In your opinion.

    PvP in GW2 is about teamwork and resource control, not about racking up kills.

    It's fine if you don't like this approach to PvP, but there it is.

    If you want to rack up kills and see who did the most DPS at the end of a match you have other choices.

    I've never really understood why people find these two desires to be mutually exclusive. Part of capturing or holding objectives often involves kills. Either directly or peripherally. And kills are also given credit for in sPvP (10 points per kill, IIRC). So yes, killing on its own does matter. Even if points were not awarded for killing, seeking a sense of satisfaction from said kills shouldn't be alien or discouraged, even in a team setting. In objective-oriented team games there are often roles, and sometimes these roles even explicitly involve killing. The spy sapping the sentry farms and killing all the engineers gives way for the team to make a push, to use TF2 as an example. The enemy spy can also defang a push by taking out the medic healing the heavy (or any other high damage threat).

    Personally, I love nothing more than focusing on a team effort and coming out on top. I don't mind giving up raw kill potential to become a force multiplier. I played a Knight of the Blazing Sun in WAR and fondly remember pushing up to the fort in Nordenwatch while guarding the backline with my shield.  These are great moments, but they aren't for everyone, and that's OK. And believe me, game developers worth their salt completely recognize this.

    Some players will focus on killing and there is a role for them as well. Someone dead on the way to your objective is someone not assaulting or defending it. In any case, going back to the main argument (downed state), if people find the downed state to detract from the satisfaction of killing, well, that's a valid point to discuss. The rebuttal can't be that killing doesn't matter, so the existence of a downed state (and whatever effect it has on your enjoyment of killing) is then irrelevant.

    Personally, I generally dislike the downed state (so far) in PvP. I've played a good deal of PvP in GW2, but not enough to conclusively say it's truly a positive or negative addition to PvP either way just yet. However, so far, it's often been a nuisance more than anything else. You do get an additional sense of satisfaction when you get the stomp on someone, but I've had far more frustrating experiences with it instead. It also seems to often encourage poor play. One can attack from the battlements of a keep without regard for his or her safety as he is generally safe to go down up there. This allows for cases where unchecked aggression is rewarded.

    Additionally, ranged characters have to exercise poor positioning in order to go in to even secure a kill (there should be a ranged 'Finish Him!' with a longer/interruptible channel time for those using ranged weapons, IMO).

    Ultimately, it doesn't really feel good to me. Even so, I don't think the baby needs to go out with the bathwater. I feel additions (such as the ranged finisher mentioned above) or other tweaks could be made to improve the function, at the very least. I'll reserve full judgment until I get more time with it. Given the overall awesomeness of GW2 in both PvP and PvE, I'm willing to give ArenaNet the benefit of the doubt on this one for now.  With that said, I think there could be a bit more tolerance for dissenting opinion in this thread.

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • otinanai123otinanai123 NowherePosts: 265Member
    Originally posted by StrixMaxima
    Originally posted by otinanai123
    Originally posted by terrant

    "Fun" may be the most relative term possible in a game. Fun is up to the individual.

     

    OP doesn't find Downed state fun. Acceptable. That's his opinion. Cool..

     

    I can't say I 100% understand the reasoning, but that's his choice.

    Maybe you'll understand 1-2 months after launch ;) 

    After reading all these pages since my question at page 1, I still cannot agree with your points, or acknowledge that they are a problem. I do accept that, under your subjective PoV, you don't like it. That's perfectly fine.

    But your objections about zerging and teamplay are sorely undermined, and your definition of fun seems quite particular. Again, no problem in that.

    After playing the game for a while, I was only frustrated by the Downed system when the Thief blink cooldown was screwy. Other than that, it rarely saved me from a sticky situation, but I could take advantage of it when my oppontents were not very zealous about finishing me off. Which sounds perfectly fine.

    Let me give you an example. I was playing the newest map (foefire) and 2 players were in our base trying to kill our lord. I decided to try a 1v2. I killed one but of course i couldn't finish him since I had to kill him again (while both of them were dpsing/ccing me). I tried it 2 more times both with the same result: killed 1, died seconds later, the downed self-rezzes from my death.

    If there was no downed state I would be able to kill one, kite the other to regain hp and (probably) kill him in a 1v1(which is one of those awesome moments only PvP can give you but sadly GW2 won't). 

  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member
    Originally posted by otinanai123
    *snip*

    Ok but you'd still like it (since you're a PvPer and have PvPed for years in games without a downed mechanic) The difference for you is small but for many of us it's gamebreaking.

    First off:

    1) Yes I like it.

    2) Once again, the fact that other games don't have a downed state is irrelivant. Combat in GW2 is quite different. It may have beeen fantastic in other games, but the point is its an integral part of THIS game.

    3) Who comprises the us? Clearly the majority of posters favor the downed mechanic. To us it works quite well.

  • AnthurAnthur StolbergPosts: 686Member Uncommon

    Currently it's close 2:1 for those who like downed state.

    Let's assume it gets removed. So the mayjority looses on a feature they like.

    What do those loose who don't like it if it stays ? Actually nothing. You didn't kill anyone when you downed him. In GW2 you first have to beat him in downed state. There is no " I need to kill him twice". So kill him correct and you get just what you want. Your kill. You can finish people from distance with damage btw.

    This looks more like the usual vocal minority which would like to change a game their way. Unfortunately they get what they want many times.

  • ruonimruonim DGPosts: 251Member

    You dont need to do finish him in order to kill someone. You can still fire at him from distance, making hp bar go much faster.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    The frustrations downed state can cause < joy and satisfaction to take someone down and know they are DESPERATELY jamming their keys trying to rally while you are winding up the finisher...

     

  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member
    Originally posted by MikeB
    *snip*

    I feel that the point you are missing is this:

    If I dont kill you, and instead push you away for awhile, thats still a win for me. I still come out ahead. I come out ahead if I kill you as well, but only insofar as it relates to my goal of controling space. That is the primary purpose.

    And I disagree that it encourages aggressive play (bum rushing enemies will just get you killed), only co-ordinated aggresive play (which is quite a different beast)

    To each thier own.

  • sk8chalifsk8chalif Montreal, QCPosts: 599Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    People who do NOT like the downed mechanic all say the same things.

    They seem to be byproducts of the WoW generation of PvP - it's all about speed, "blowing somebody up" in a couple of seconds, and grinding kills trying to "have the best kill/death ratio" for bragging so that they can grind points to buy new / better gear so that they can "blow somebody up" in a GCD or two and earn more points and have a bigger ePeen with better K/D ratio's..

     

     

    Nope, has nothing to do with this. I just simply dont like the whole event around simply killing someone. I think this mechanic would be just as awesome in a shooter, where everytime after you shot someone down you would have to walk to them and put a bullet through their head with your sidearm or they could revive after a while. I just dont like it, it has nothing to do with other games that I have played.

    you dont kill him 2 time lol, You fight him until u put him to his knee and then finish him up. best thing ever,i love it pvp or pve,

     

    image
    ~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by ruonim

    You dont need to do finish him in order to kill someone. You can still fire at him from distance, making hp bar go much faster.

    Exactly. At range, just count to 8? I think it is, know that they are going to be pressing their "4" key to heal (cause it doesn't become active till I think 8 seconds after they go down) and then use an interupt... throw on a DOT or something, watch them cry and die horribly from a distance.

    Downed state is just "new" people don't quite grasp it yet, grasp how to stop it, how to beat it, how to win with it, etc.

     

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Boston, MAPosts: 991Member
    Originally posted by MikeB
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by otinanai123

    PvP should be both about winning and "the kill".

    In your opinion.

    PvP in GW2 is about teamwork and resource control, not about racking up kills.

    It's fine if you don't like this approach to PvP, but there it is.

    If you want to rack up kills and see who did the most DPS at the end of a match you have other choices.

    I've never really understood why people find these two desires to be mutually exclusive. Part of capturing or holding objectives often involves kills. Either directly or peripherally. And kills are also given credit for in sPvP (10 points per kill, IIRC). So yes, killing on its own does matter. Even if points were not awarded for killing, seeking a sense of satisfaction from said kills shouldn't be alien or discouraged, even in a team setting. In objective-oriented team games there are often roles, and sometimes these roles even explicitly involve killing. The spy sapping the sentry farms and killing all the engineers gives way for the team to make a push, to use TF2 as an example. The enemy spy can also defang a push by taking out the medic healing the heavy (or any other high damage threat).

    I do not see killing someone in PvP and territory/resource control as mutually exclusive.

    The question for me is the difference, as was highlighted earlier, between a TF2 approach to combat and a generic deathmatch approach to combat.

    In TF2, I love playing an engineer and trying to find really strategic points of control, but that doesn't mean that I don't like blasting someone in the face with a shotgun, especially the spies trying to sap my turrets. But the point of what I'm doing in that particular role is controlling access to a resource.

    Killing another player takes them out of combat for a period of time and it is completely legitimate. It is why people call out focus target in sPvP.

    But again, is the goal to control resources as a team or take out other players? Teams that run around just going for kills will, for the most part, lose.

    Now does the downed stated enhance or detract from that experience? I guess it depends on your perspective, but I hear some people saying they don't like it because it's new, or has not been implemented in any other PvP setting, or it detracts from their experience of "fun" though that is really subjective. So I personally can appreciate that someone might not find it fun and the forums are obviously a great place to express that, though I'm not sure that disagreeing with their opinion means that one is not tolerant of it.

    With regards to ranged finishers, I see the point, but I have mixed feelings and agree that it would have to have a different implementation than melee finishers.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • StrixMaximaStrixMaxima SPosts: 884Member
    Originally posted by otinanai123

    Let me give you an example. I was playing the newest map (foefire) and 2 players were in our base trying to kill our lord. I decided to try a 1v2. I killed one but of course i couldn't finish him since I had to kill him again (while both of them were dpsing/ccing me). I tried it 2 more times both with the same result: killed 1, died seconds later, the downed self-rezzes from my death.

    If there was no downed state I would be able to kill one, kite the other to regain hp and (probably) kill him in a 1v1(which is one of those awesome moments only PvP can give you but sadly GW2 won't). 

    I see. Interesting that you mentioned an example like that. Something similar happened with me in the Forest of Nifhel map during the second BWE:

    I saw a Warrior and an Elementalist banging the Svanir boss. After assessing the situation a bit, I waited the to blow their longest cooldowns and jumped in (playing a Mesmer). Since theElementalist was playing mostly with Daggers, I stacked Confusion on her, and managed to down her with a well-placed Shatter that also damaged the Warrior.

    After that, I broke LoS with her, knowing that I wouldn't be able to finish her with the Warrior wailing on me. So I decided to damage the Warrior as much as possible, but only downing him when the Elementalist got back up, with less HP. Doing that, I could get both of them downed in a short space of time, and I managed to finish both before their team showed up and killed me.

    PVP is inherently disappointment management. Sometimes you will try things that won't work out. But sometimes, you'll be able to do some amazing things. The Downed state allowed me to do an amazing, very calculated fight. I wouldn't change this system for nothing else in the market right now.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,828Member Uncommon

    What if there was no down state, the damage was the same, but players had 33% more health?

    It would take the same amount of time, but since the guy wasn't with his bum on the floor and didn't have different skills no one would complain.

    The game is balanced with down state in mind. If there was no down state, spike kills would be prevented by lower damage and higher health.

    This increase tense moments, especially for esports - it is alot easier to see someone is almost death when he is downed isntead of having 10% health.

    Also takes advantage of the bundle system im GW2.

    It is just different.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • BrorzBrorz KreileroordPosts: 9Member
    Originally posted by joocheese
    Originally posted by otinanai123

    Well?

    Definitely with the downed mechanic. If I'm not mistaken, the downed mechanic is a first in an mmo; this mechanic is one of the new things that GW2 has brough to the mmo genre. I think it provides the downed player an opportunity to rally and continue fighting and it also provides the attacker with a unique "finishing move". Btw, more often than not, players will not rally, on average; I disagree with people who say the advantage is for the downed player. When a player is "downed", the advantage is still to the attacker, who still has to successfully "finish" the player.

    P.S. Even after a downed player has been "finished" by an enemy attacker, other players can come and rez the defeated player; it just takes longer than if the player was just downed. In my opinion, this is one of the best wvw/spvp mechanic that GW2 has introduced.

     

    I totally agree! the downed state is a nice novelty

  • KetillKetill Minneapolis, MNPosts: 19Member

    While I don't completely favor the current iteration of the downed mechanic in sPvP (I think it is fine in PvE and WvW), I also realized as others have stated that too much is balanced around it to ever remove it. For sPvP I think I'd prefer to see it shortened/reduced a little bit; that it to say, less hps when downed, quicker ability activations, and faster finishing moves. Basically, I would rather see it be a faster process but still remain mostly unchanged otherwise.

  • itsTortitsTort San Diego, CAPosts: 128Member

    I'm personally not a big fan of the downed mechanic, it gives a group too much time to get back up and join the fight. I do like that you can rez anyone, and I think that should stay; but I don't like the idea of self rezzing. If you die, there should be a consequence such as having to run back, or wait for your team to rez you assuming that victory is near.

  • Vorgarag109Vorgarag109 Navarre, FLPosts: 13Member

    u haven't been downed by falling damage in the middle of nowhere i assume ugh. at the time i did not know I could self rez by waiting on call for help.

    Self rezzing is INSANELY slow.  and can't be done unless you kill something when you are being beaten on. 

    and It is crazy slow rezzing someone in combat compared to outside combat and its even slower if that person is completely knocked out.

     

    Downed state itself is pretty fine imo its the classes with ability that allow them to stealth and pop around while in downed state or aoe knockback that is annoying. just because u can not leave a person their to sit and rez themself and it becomes a giant time consumer having to finish the person..

     

     

  • FearTHeFroFearTHeFro elk river, MNPosts: 76Member Uncommon

    I'm not sure how i feel about it yet. It's still very new to me, sometimes i like it (when I'm able to rally) and other times when i get 3 vs 1'd and have to sit there for 5-10 seconds for them to finish me off i don't like it. I think it brings a new dynamic to pvp, whether thats good or bad ill have to wait and play more.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    Originally posted by ItsGopher

    I'm personally not a big fan of the downed mechanic, it gives a group too much time to get back up and join the fight. I do like that you can rez anyone, and I think that should stay; but I don't like the idea of self rezzing. If you die, there should be a consequence such as having to run back, or wait for your team to rez you assuming that victory is near.

    Originally posted by FearTHeFro

    I'm not sure how i feel about it yet. It's still very new to me, sometimes i like it (when I'm able to rally) and other times when i get 3 vs 1'd and have to sit there for 5-10 seconds for them to finish me off i don't like it. I think it brings a new dynamic to pvp, whether thats good or bad ill have to wait and play more.

    I seriousely could try harder but this is only one example.

     

    When you die in down state you do have to wait to be rezzed or run back, assuming we talking about GW 2.

    SPVP is not solo pvp it's team based. BTW there is no self rezzing.

    I'm not trying to convince you guys into liking the system but I swear the statements...

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Distopia

     

    How many times can you overlook that no one said a competent player can't be beat, what was said was you're going to have a tough go at taking down two competent players at the same time all by yourself.

    Can't say I prefer one way or the other, only that the downed state reminds me of SWG's incap/DB system.

    It should be tough.

    Why on earth should it be easy for a class or player to take out two competent players if they're trying to take them on 2v1?

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • itsTortitsTort San Diego, CAPosts: 128Member
    Originally posted by RizelStar

    Originally posted by ItsGopher

    I'm personally not a big fan of the downed mechanic, it gives a group too much time to get back up and join the fight. I do like that you can rez anyone, and I think that should stay; but I don't like the idea of self rezzing. If you die, there should be a consequence such as having to run back, or wait for your team to rez you assuming that victory is near.

    Originally posted by FearTHeFro

    I'm not sure how i feel about it yet. It's still very new to me, sometimes i like it (when I'm able to rally) and other times when i get 3 vs 1'd and have to sit there for 5-10 seconds for them to finish me off i don't like it. I think it brings a new dynamic to pvp, whether thats good or bad ill have to wait and play more.

    I seriousely could try harder but this is only one example.

     

    When you die in down state you do have to wait to be rezzed or run back, assuming we talking about GW 2.

    SPVP is not solo pvp it's team based. BTW there is no self rezzing.

    I'm not trying to convince you guys into liking the system but I swear the statements...

     

    That's only when you die in the downed state. You are forgetting the whole 'downed state' part of what I was saying, and why I don't like it. 

     

     

  • chaintmchaintm Chicago, ILPosts: 972Member Common

    In beta I personally found this to be a very fun mechanic. From the chances of coming back in pve and pvp. In pve it's to beat that mob that downed you (last...dying... breath!) and in pvp to live again to give back what was dished out. Also, in pvp (sense most seem to think this is where it matters), anyone that did a descent amount of pvp in beta knows that when someone is downed. The instinct for those that down him/her is to gank the down. (take that final kill) and it's now a strategic choice.

    Do we move ahead and push the enemy line to get the final kill, do we hold back and drop them with range and aoe dmg instead? Do I sneak in and attempt the kill or do I wait for the moment?

    In the end the down mechanic hurts nothing, if you deal damage in range you don't have to run down to get the kill you just keep pounding them till they die. Nice thing about seige for instance, if you kill people when they are in a downed state, the items pop up to your siege equipment :) I bet a ton of people here don't even know that.

    There are many ways to down someone and in the same time give that downed person a chance to come back for revenge. Instead of an instant death there is a time (be it a very small window) you can actually live past a mistake or suprised gank. In the end this just adds another layer of tatical flavor other games don't have.

    I think (personal opinion) most that don't care for this mechanic are the instant gratification people, sorry but there is no negative to this addition to the game. It might extend a fight a few seconds or make a whole new tactic come into play. Something as simple as this death mechanic has changed the way things.

    Nothing stops a group from zerging a field and just killing everything in their wake and getting the final kills later or just let them bleed to death. You still get the same credit, so in the end this mechanic does a few things.

     

    - If you do nothing in a dead state, you will die quicker, so release is faster.

    - Extends the time someone can respawn and come back to the battle.

    - Changes tactics on the fly in the middle of a battle for both sides effected.

    - Extended time allows a chance for your team-mates to rescue you from respawn.

    - Allows for any sort of dealing with this type of death model.

    - Adds another layer to your game play, letting you do something even when you are down, I have seen plenty of people kill that person that killed them with their final death abilities.

    - More is always better, less always sucks :)

     

    That's my 2cents on it anyways, in the end I think it adds more to the game and was a great addition done by the devs.

     

    "The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  • Cito2009Cito2009 Santa Rosa, CAPosts: 20Member

    I just think of the downed state as he is still alive and I haven't killed him yet.. I love downed state I think it adds more to the fights.

    Also, you will finish ppl off that you didn't touch and other times you will do all the dmg and not finish the guy.  I just don't care;p..

    It will basically work itself out and in the "end" really there is no end, it evens out.  Also, you can shoot a downed player from

    range and still kill them that way,  just auto fire on them and move away from the other guy your fighting and dodge etc until you 

    can kill the downed player or get a finsih move off.  Basically, you knocked the guy down and you haven't beat him yet until he is dead dead, downed is mostly dead. =) (Princess Bride)

  • suu141suu141 louisville, KYPosts: 249Member

    I've always thought down state was just having "extra/reserve HPs" that isn't shown. You are near death, therefor it makes sence for you to be crippled after how many arrows and sword stabs got lodged into you?

     

    For a person to be fully functional and without penalty with at least 1 HP left actually doesn't makes sence to me either.

     

     

    "When you're born you're naked, when you die you're naked again, and in-between all we do is work, eat, and play MMOs." ~Forum Warrior #141

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    Honestly, as someone who used to hate the downed mechanic, I actually think it's a good thing.

    As I've explained in other threads, it prevents spiking from being an almost guarunteed advantage. In GW1, most games would basically result in each team spiking each other trying to rack of death penalties on one another. Because if you can instantly drop someone, you have a numbers advantage straight off the bat.

    In GW2, you can still spike someone instantly, but you sacrifice a lot to do so. Basically, it's a more risky strategy, as it should be. If you want to kill someone instantly, you should have to sacrifice all else to achieve it. By having the downed state, it also makes it so you have to secure your kills.

    Going back to the spike example, if you show up to a fight and spike a target down, you may have a temporary advantage, but if you burned all your CDs spiking the first target, you won't be able to stop his friends from helping him back up. This is very aparent when you watch burst warriors fight. If they wast might, frenzy, and hundred blades / eviscerate killing a target, they better make sure they finish him off, or they just wasted a bunch of long CDs.

    - In short, the downed state offers another layer of strategy to the combat. It makes it more complex. It also gives players a chance to recover from an unexpectedly high burst of damage. Furthermore, there's that additional choice of leaving someone downed (slowing his respawn), or finishing him off quickly. It definitely makes for more interesting fights imho, even if I had getting stuck in a downed state for more than 10 seconds on occasion.

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