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the Trinity reconstruction thread. Ideas wanted..
rungard
Member Posts: 1,035
ok we know there problems with the trinity.
1) it no longer exists in its original form (tank/heal/cc) and is more commonly known as tank/heal/dps
2) the tank/heal/dps is plagued with the problem where everyone and their mother end up wanting to be dps, resultin in a shortage of tanks an healers.
so how to resolve the problem? Please post your ideas here. post your whines, complaints and general asshattery in the other demise of the trinity thread.
heres my stab at it.
There will be great disagreement but i believe that dps as a role must be eliminated. It is wrong to offload the responsibility of the group to two players so everyone else can play lazymode. Im genralizing but there should be equal responsibility of all roles, and this will ensure that enough players choose the roles of healer, tank and crowd controller. Everyone should be expected to perform offensive duty. This is no issue for tanks and crowd controllers but is an issue for healers. No one should expect that they only have to do damage.
I believe healing abilities should be scaled back alot ( not eliminated) but in its place healers would receive an wider array of debuffing and damage prevention mechanisms.
I would reduce the group size to three. I just believe three is the most balanced number for a really fun experience. From what ive read about lorto 3 mans and my many years of playin mmo's i believe this is an easy way to reinvigorate grouping and the trinity itself. The 3 man specifically reduced the overall damage output of mobs which reduced the specialist requirement of players an healing loads.
Crowd control would be greatly expanded but would have "mezz" type controls removed. There would be many more partial effects, but no effect would be a complete lockdown.
Tanking would lose its taunt abilities and this would be replaced with different kinds of gameplay. for intance one class could be a gravity knight, who could use magic to tether themselves to a mob..or a battlemage would would specialize in forcefields to funnel enemies into them. A warrior might lasso a mob etc. Mobs would still try to kill who they wanted, but the new method would allow brief interventions to this.
lastly class balance would be modified such that every class is either ranked 1 , 2, or 3 for tanking, healing, and crowd control. This mean that all players could perform all roles potentially, and certainly in a pinch. So if your a primarily tank character say a paladin your a tank 1, heal 2, crowd conrol 3, where say a gravity knight would be tank 1, crowd control 2, healing 3. ...all players would be expected to dps.
whats your idea?
Comments
I think more roles than 3 would be a great start, aim for at least 5.
Also, dont balance combat and encounters on the fact that players will take damage, make it possible to clear encounters without taking damage.
Remove taunts and greatly revamp the threat system, GW1 did a good job with this, but lets take even more steps further.
Finally, add some depth to the system, give us actual teamwork, not the illusion of it.
The biggest problem with the trinity set up is it creates dependencies that force players into roles they may or may not want to play. I know a lot of people feel this also fosters community having such dependencies but I think the best way is sort of how gw2 is set up. Where different roles have different play styles but are all capable of getting the job done. Say my friends and I all want to play as thieves or warriors, that should be a viable option. We need more style variety as apposed to having to play certain roles IMO....
My problem with the trinity is the overabundance of DPS and lack of gimmicks. If they could have roles kind of like in LoL where you have different team setups and be able to do well then Id accept it. But if its tank heal, fill with dps then no thank you.
Edit : I like your idea. Mine was something similar and I posted it WAYYYYYYYY back in one of MMOExposed threads so Ill just say I agree with your idea lol
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Raider 1: Ugh, our tank is late. Sorry guys he's on his way I just got off the phone with him.
Raider 2: Ahh its cool dude, I'm catching up on some TV series I missed.
Raider 3: LOL you guys HAVE to see this video!
20 minutes later
Raider 4: Sorry I'm late guys, I'm ready to go.
Raider 1: Yay our tank is here!
Raider 2: Damn, I have to go guys, its an emergency. Sorry.
Raider 1: ...and there goes a healer.
Raider 4: Can't we do this with 2 healers?
Raider 3: Sure if you want to wipe all night.
Raider 1: Does anyone know a healer?
Raider 1: Anyone?
Raider 1: ...
General Chat: Raider 1: Looking for Healer! PST
20 minutes later
General Chat: Raider 1: Looking for Healer! PST
hah, that's one of the things I hate about raiding
More dps per tank. 1 tank and 1 healer and 8 dps/whatever . I want these 10 man dungeons to have the difficulty of a standard party dungeon found in WoW and Rift. Not Raid difficulty, which is harder than a party dungeon IMO.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I do agree with the anti trinity people in one regard, the tank concept is unnatural and maybe a bit forced if functional.
I don't want to play wack-a-mole fps dps zerg games though. So here is what I've come up with.
Heavy fighters-single target off tanks but not able to take agro for an entire raid or instances worth of mobs, basically your healer and r casters body guard.....off tanking as I said.
DPS can be dps, dps classes shouldn't bring much else to the table, self buffs and dmg, because I don't want them to spill into these next roles
Support- like a bard, you can make it happen however you want via lore and graphics, but give this class and classes like it buffs and debuffs and moderate dps, more than a heavy a fighter but well below a pure dps class. Make these buffs and debuffs really matter.
Control- I don't know how many of you guys played CoX but they had a class called a dominator. It had moderate dmg as described for support above but really had alot of control. Typically my dominator would have a shorter duration AE mez, and a longer durations single target type mez along with roots and snares.
Heals- maybe make the heals not single target but AE or group based just to make it different. or traditional however you wat to do it.
Another thing I'd do, is a rip off from a couple other games. Provide different sets or schools of magic for the class, unchangeable after you roll it up, not a spec but almost like a subclass. For instance my dominatr I talked about's control ability was psionics and his offensive ability(secondary) was fire, all the sets accomplished basically the same thing, but there were differences in play style based on what you took. I'd like to see this for every class beyond mere spec or trait points.
IF you want to reconstruckt the trinity why not look at how it had been reconstruckted ?
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/
the last part of this article explain how a game set out to reconstruckt the trinity.
The point is to see that healing is a subclass of support , tanking is a subclass of control and dps is a subclass of damage.
So basicly the trinity consist of support, control and damage, as the article eksplain it
Tanking is the most rudimentary form of the most important combat fundamental, CONTROL
Heal: Don't belittle the SUPPORT role by calling it heal. Healing is the least dynamic kind of support there is. It is reactive instead of proactive. Healing is for when you are already losing.
DPS: Call it whatever you like--DPS, damage per second--we just call it DAMAGE, and when it comes to making red bars go down, you can never have enough of it. Don't trivialize it though; damage is a very versatile aspect of combat.
I think this way to look at it can be used to explain whats the trinity is (damage, control and support) and what the holy part of trinity is (dps, tanking and healing).
Removing the holy part is removing the lazy mode.
Whats then up to do in the reconstruction is to figure out if you want fixed roles, or roles that change on the fly, and that everyone can fullfill. Fixed roles lead to waisted time seting up the right group, but also lets players know "their place and function". Changing roles on the fy, let action starts immidiatly and raise the skillcap, but do also remove the security in knowing your role.
OP describe new tanking roles- they are forms of control as all tanking is. Op desrcibe new dps roles, that comes by it self not having a lazymode. Op describe new healing roles - that is support. Op basicly describes how to remove the holy part of the trinity model!
I'd remove tank and its contrived 'taunt' system, and then add in
- damage types that actually mean something, with gear and weapons to support it
- larger inventory and mechanics to support multiple gear sets
- player collision detection
- friendly fire
Positioning, intel and countermeasures would be re-introduced to MMO combat.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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No, it has merely been replaced with a utility self healing dps zerg, the trinity is acttually more interesting to me. I am playing gw2 in spite of their class se t up not because of it. I am hoping that the content is good, because a pew pew pew fest isn't all that appealing. Fixed roles are better too, it palces a premium on team work and knowing your class.
I honestly dont think the problem is the roles of healer, DPS, tank... I like healers.
I think it's the outdated agro mechaninc. I think one guy getting the attention of all mobs while one guy heals him, and all the others spam attacks is boring, especially after you repeat it... throughout the whole game...forever... and ever.
Currently during an encounter, mobs agro characters for three reasons: 1. The character does a lot of damage,2. the characetr heals someone who currently is holding agro, or 3. the character uses some sort of taunt ability.
This system was and is used because of limited mob intelligence.
What I propose is a more RANDOM AGRO mechanic.
For intance...
1. Some mobs would agro on the player closest to them
2. Some would agro on the character farthest from them
3. Some would agro on spellcasters,thieves, fighters, people with blond hair, bad teeth, etc. see #5 below
4. Some would follow the current system, and be susceptible to taunts and massive damage, healing
5. Some would RANDOMLY AGRO players
6. MANY mobs would RANDOMLY switch between players regardless of what was going on.
Now, how is an intrepid band of adventurers to deal with such CHAOS (Imagine battles being chaotic!)?
Each class/character/player would be able to switch between offensive and defensive "modes."
For WARRIOR archetypes, it might be the choice between actively employing your shield to block incoming damage verses leaving yourself open while trying to land a blow.
For ROGUE archetypes, it might be an evasion skill... for WIZARDS, a spell (although Gandalf was handy with a sword, eh?).
By giving up 100% of your damage output, you could block 90% of incoming damage... and vice versa. Something akin to that.
_____________________________
"Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
Large party sizes Tank/dps/Support/healers and all the hybrization in between.
Maybe lower the difference between a tank and dps? if you can pull from a dps pool for tanks then things would be better, Even if the support classes gave an artificial buff to make them tanks.
Maybe let the support class channel the flow of aggro? Sounds weird but it could be interesting?
put aggro on dps 1, when hes almost dead swich to dps 2 ect ect. also while the mob has its on internal aggro script.
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In my view, a key is aggro mechanics. I'd have taunt pull aggro from another player character and decay from there. Tanks should have to work to hold aggro and it should get worse when encounters are against a large group of mobs. A huge group should be very chaotic.
GW1 has a decent PVE system for trinity. Mobs are smart enough to move out of AOE. They don't cling to tanks. Based on random or influences, they hop targets. It makes for interesting fights.
The current "tank grabs aggro on 8 mobs and DPS pounds them down without fear of ever getting hit" system is what I see getting stale. It's too mechanical and predictable. Off-tanks and ranged DPS to pick off runners don't have anything to do. They just become DPSers.
Make everyone a hybrid tank/DPS/healer. problem solved. that way when the tank is off waxing his loins or bowflexing,anyone in the raid could tank for him.
It would solve the shortage of each specific class being needed since all of them could fill the roles., and folks who love to pewpew can heal as well, or run and off-tank an add.
It Would take some genius coding to make it all work and be balanced but, thats my idea.
I agree with Loktofeit and XAPGames, taunting is the single most absurd thing in trinity combat. It is unnatural. Tanking does not exist in PvP. Because of this there's a clear difference between PvE builds and PvP builds where PvP builds usually have more controlling abilities just because there is no tank. If you can bring PvE and PvP combat closer together you'd have easier time to balance both and you would have fewer instances where PvP builds hunt hapless PvE builds.
Mobs need to attack weak or threatening targets. They need to use disabling effects to force players adapt. They need to dodge and evade AOE attacks, flee and call for help.
Also bodyblocking, blocking projectiles and friendly fire would all make an refreshing change of pace.
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I think it is the tank that needs to go instead of the DPS. Tanking makes every combat similar and predictable, the idea that all mobs are so stupid that a few "your mama" comments will make all bosses including super smart dragons target them are rather retarded.
Mobs needs better AI, they should focus on the ones doing most damage, supports the others a lot and the ones easiest to kill, preferably in a hard to predict way and changing target often enough unless a target is almost dead. That forces players to constantly react to what is happening around them.
Body blocking is fine though.
Healers works fine in certain types of games, like high fantasy. In others I think you should force players to save their health instead with dodges and tactics, and auto fill it after every combat to keep the downtime away.
would be cool with more CCing than tanking...
Like removing the tank and giving the other classes more CC to control the mobs/players. tank and spank is getting boring. please note im not saying now that replace tank with a cc class since that wouldnt change a thing just give more cc to the current classes.
i think that would also benefit both pve and pvp since more controll creates more interesstings setups. that also makes to think about how to counter what...
A simple party size increase should help. In WoW a party has 5 people. That means for each 1 tank and 1 healer, 3 people can be damage dealers. If you increase the party size to 6, you cut the waiting time for damage dealers by 25% as there can now be 4 of them per 1 tank and 1 healer.
Just one possible method of alleviating the issue.
Honestly i dislike the trinity system since day one when Soe "dream team" described it to the public. I personally know some ways to fix it, i don't know if those fixes can be coded properly (its so much easier to speak than doing), they probably can be coded, but conceptually i know how to fix it at least. I won't tell tough unless i have sympathy with you, i'll rather have the system die, the core idea is shitty as hell, and the intention behind were plain bad to begin with, but guys like you don't know the core idea, don't give a fuck about it, and will probably ignore it if someone tell them (like Smedley and Co described it back then).
And 2 points i want to add. OP you describe a non trinity system and a system that was already made in the first mmo UO, go check it, it's old as a dinosaur, but well it is there and exactly how you envision it even thought it's... well... know as a non trinity system! but i guess this is just wording and definition is it?
.
ANd second trinity system evolved quiet a lot during a period of mmo history around 2k, the number of roles and variant, of the system went crazy at one point, ye i know it's hard to believe, but that is the flat out true. You had pullers, cc class, aoe tank/off tank, you had ranged and aoe parties rooming dungeons (not much but you did had some at one point)... I don't know why but something tell me first that the trinity was the lazy fat ass coding mechanism and it's probably why it is so popular, and not because guys like you think it's so awesome, well both probably make it the way it is now. And second it never really evolved, why? ask yourself.
what would be more interesting gameplay to me would be to balance the classes out so that they could 'bounce' aggro between themselves, heal themselves and each other, and dps.
think about 3 kids taunting a dog. no, don't that's a horrid image. i spose what i'm saying is that in pnp DnD there were really no tanks, monsters just attacked you. your companions helped you, you helped them, everyone pitched in and everyone got some action and felt useful at the same time.
speaking of which, i think it's going to be the thing tanks and healers miss in the new paradigm: feeling useful.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
speaking more directly to the 3 roles, perhaps, instead of thinking of the roles, think of the abilities, then attempt to reassign them.
ex. what if everytime the tank blocked the damage rolled off healed the party?
or what if a % of the damage a dps did was converted into healing? (bloodmages in Vanguard for instance.) and i dont mean shadow priests. dont just give the healer role damage abilities, give the dps some group support abilities as well.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Was that way in EQ1 a dozen years ago. Player sitting and resting? BAM! Instant aggro on a pull. Player below 10% health and often no amount of taunting would pull it off.
Regarding PvE/PvP dichotomy, mobs were given huge HP advantages to compensate for poor AI's. This led to players having to deal god's own lot of damage for the mob to even notice it. Of course if you now turn and use this anti-NPC skill on players they drop in droves. Making the mobs into player equivilants is the answer, the same skills working equally PvE or PvP and all is right with the world. I am sick of games where they have to add PvP exclusive stats, skills and limitations to make it balance. Give me a game where a L30 Player and a L30 Mob have a real 50:50 chance against each other and I will be happy.
Taunting was removed in GW1 from 2005. It didn't prevent having a frontline controlclass, it just worked different. Taunting is a absurd form of controll.