I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone. That's probably the biggest reason.
And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you.
GW2 isn't a WoW clone because of it's skill system, combat system, zoned world, fair and balanced sPvP, WvW, crafting system, AH features, and focus on events over quest hubs just to name a few features. Now I have to ask, am I wrong?
As far as TESO being called a WoW clone, there are obviously some seriously pissed off Elder Scrolls fans who are upset that the game doesn't live up to their expectations and calling a game a WoW clone is one of the biggest insults you can use on this forum without getting moded.
TESO isn't a WoW clone and neither is GW2.
It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone.
I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game.
Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.
Do you really not know? Okay, I'm going to assume you really don't.
1.) GW2 has introduced new things to the game that its departure from it predecessor became acceptable to the supporters. It so happens that their decisions clicked with what the players are looking for.
2.) During WoW's inception there wasn't as much "EQ" clones back then to make its fans grab pitchforks and burn Blizzard. Also, Warcraft was a RTS. WoW is a MMORPG, not a MMORTS. Also I believe WoW was criticized by diehard WC3 fans because they sensed the end of Warcraft as a RTS.
3.) TES has always been a single player RPG. People were asking for a multiplayer component, Bethesda keep saying 'no'. Alright, now they give us a MMORPG. Fans are quite divided because there are those who just want multiplayer, not a MMO (I can't judge which is the dominant faction). Additionally, TESO is being developed by Zenimax Online, not Bethesda. Some people have no trust with Zenimax Online, and it didnt help that in their interviews they do not hide the fact that they just can't add some stuff to the game "because it's hard to implement". Lastly, TES already has a design that works for RPGs. It was a twitchy action RPG. Fans want to keep that. Dropping this kind of combat system is what I think fans made calling the game a "WoW clone" (that was rather shallow of them), although upon closer inspection it really isn't. The changes they introduced to the game did not click with the players.
It's easy to spot the clones. Goldeneye Wii was a CoD clone.
LotRO was a WoW clone. AoC was a WoW clone.
It's really not that difficult. "Well yeah, every MMO has quest based leveling and the same UI and class advancement system! Thats cause they're MMOs, not clones!" So here's the correction. All WoW clones have the same class systems and quest based leveling. Older MMOs did not have these things. They were all radically different from one another.
It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone.
I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game.
Yes, I'll give you that the MMO won't likely be much like its namesake... but to be honest there are a lot of game features that work really well in single player and coop games but not in MMOs.
I actually argued the opposite in a previous thread on the TESO sub-forum. A lot of features that exist in the TES universe actually already exist in various MMOs. The only thing is that no developers has attempted to put them together.
It's not the best list ever, as it was done in haste, but the point is that the ideas are already out there. They just need to be put into a single game, and adapted to fit with the TES IP.
Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by MadnessRealm Originally posted by OldManFunk Originally posted by laokoko I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone. That's probably the biggest reason.And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you.
GW2 isn't a WoW clone because of it's skill system, combat system, zoned world, fair and balanced sPvP, WvW, crafting system, AH features, and focus on events over quest hubs just to name a few features. Now I have to ask, am I wrong?
As far as TESO being called a WoW clone, there are obviously some seriously pissed off Elder Scrolls fans who are upset that the game doesn't live up to their expectations and calling a game a WoW clone is one of the biggest insults you can use on this forum without getting moded.
TESO isn't a WoW clone and neither is GW2.
It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone.
I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game.
Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.
There's a big difference in perception. GW2 is seen as an improvement to GW1 as well as an attempt to move away from the traditional model common to our industry. The Warcraft IP (WC1 to WC3) was not an RPG to begin with. In this case there'd be a lot less resistance towards the creation of an MMO based on the IP. Blizzard also did not make the mistake of taking out of the game, but rather to heavily expand upon it through a different medium.
TES on the other hand, is an IP that many players have been wishing to see in the multiplayer/MMO-sphere for a while now. TES is, much like Warcraft is, a very well-established IP. Unlike Warcraft however, TES is an open-ended RPG with a vast lore and features that have really set TES apart. I think this is the main reason why we see such resistance towards TESO. TESO isn't content with the MMO portion, they're replacing the whole RPG part as well. TESO has also not decided to follow the lore all that much, so you end up with Factions that contains races that shouldn't necessarily be together. A combat system that is quite the opposite of what TES has offered from the beginning. Exploration and Lore set on the side. The more fleshed-out AI is also left out (Radiant AI). Features like housing are left out (because they're too hard according to Matt Firor).
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
WoW is EQ with Warcraft ip slapped on top. That's what happen when you cross genre. GW1 was a CORPG, and GW2 is a MMORPG. They play nothing alike. If you change the ip, nobody would even know they have anything related. Same thing apply here with TESO. Its a different genre of gaming. TES is a SRPG and TESO is a MMORPG..
You say TES is open ended, well what suggest TESO isn't as well? You can explore and venture to do whatever you want in any mmorpg. Why should TESO be any different. Hey TES didn't even have multiplayer.
Look at Skyrim. Now look at any THEMEPARK MMO. You can do everything in skyrim in any standard THEMEPARK MMO. Explore, make builds using trees, and kill random crap and do quest.
TESO allows you to do this and more. It has Massive PVP wars which TES didn't have, because it had NO-MULTIPLAYER AT ALL. And this time around you get a better combat system with active dodge and blocking, without the lame Skyrim combat. Who really like having to go into a menu to activate different spells and skills? That's lame.
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
I wish he was making DAoC 2. But he's not. He may be trying to replicate the PvP, but the PvE is straight from WoW.
DAoC had housing. DAoc did NOT have instancing, solo quests, phasing, and all that garbage.
The only DAoC feature he mentioned was public dungeons, which are pointless when shared with instanced dungeons. In all his interviews he talks about WoW.
I was mostly referring to the 3-way Faction PvP which Firor seems to be pushing as much as possible. I completely agree with you that it's much closer to WoW than DAoC, but to me Firor is still trying to make DAoC 2, or at least one that will do better than DAoC 1, based on his own ideas of what went wrong with DAoC and he's using WoW as his source of "inspiration".
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
I wish he was making DAoC 2. But he's not. He may be trying to replicate the PvP, but the PvE is straight from WoW.
DAoC had housing. DAoc did NOT have instancing, solo quests, phasing, and all that garbage.
The only DAoC feature he mentioned was public dungeons, which are pointless when shared with instanced dungeons. In all his interviews he talks about WoW.
I was mostly referring to the 3-way Faction PvP which Firor seems to be pushing as much as possible. I completely agree with you that it's much closer to WoW than DAoC, but to me Firor is still trying to make DAoC 2, or at least one that will do better than DAoC 1, based on his own ideas of what went wrong with DAoC and he's using WoW as his source of "inspiration".
There are few MMOs that did better than DAoC 1.
And the 3 faction PvP is ESSENTIAL for any PvP game, glad he's pushing it. Now I wish he could push out all the singleplayer instance garbage out the door.
It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone.
I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game.
Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.
There's a big difference in perception. GW2 is seen as an improvement to GW1 as well as an attempt to move away from the traditional model common to our industry. The Warcraft IP (WC1 to WC3) was not an RPG to begin with. In this case there'd be a lot less resistance towards the creation of an MMO based on the IP. Blizzard also did not make the mistake of taking out of the game, but rather to heavily expand upon it through a different medium.
TES on the other hand, is an IP that many players have been wishing to see in the multiplayer/MMO-sphere for a while now. TES is, much like Warcraft is, a very well-established IP. Unlike Warcraft however, TES is an open-ended RPG with a vast lore and features that have really set TES apart. I think this is the main reason why we see such resistance towards TESO. TESO isn't content with the MMO portion, they're replacing the whole RPG part as well. TESO has also not decided to follow the lore all that much, so you end up with Factions that contains races that shouldn't necessarily be together. A combat system that is quite the opposite of what TES has offered from the beginning. Exploration and Lore set on the side. The more fleshed-out AI is also left out (Radiant AI). Features like housing are left out (because they're too hard according to Matt Firor).
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
WoW is EQ with Warcraft ip slapped on top. That's what happen when you cross genre. GW1 was a CORPG, and GW2 is a MMORPG. They play nothing alike. If you change the ip, nobody would even know they have anything related. Same thing apply here with TESO. Its a different genre of gaming. TES is a SRPG and TESO is a MMORPG..
You say TES is open ended, well what suggest TESO isn't as well? You can explore and venture to do whatever you want in any mmorpg. Why should TESO be any different. Hey TES didn't even have multiplayer.
Look at Skyrim. Now look at any THEMEPARK MMO. You can do everything in skyrim in any standard THEMEPARK MMO. Explore, make builds using trees, and kill random crap and do quest.
TESO allows you to do this and more. It has Massive PVP wars which TES didn't have, because it had NO-MULTIPLAYER AT ALL. And this time around you get a better combat system with active dodge and blocking, without the lame Skyrim combat. Who really like having to go into a menu to activate different spells and skills? That's lame.
I'll just stop here. I think you show a pretty great amount of ignorance on the subjects. The first paragraph, the first sentence even, is enough to tell me so. My answers are there, if you still do not understand them, no amount of arguing will change that.
Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by MadnessRealm Originally posted by OldManFunk Originally posted by laokoko I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone. That's probably the biggest reason.And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you.
GW2 isn't a WoW clone because of it's skill system, combat system, zoned world, fair and balanced sPvP, WvW, crafting system, AH features, and focus on events over quest hubs just to name a few features. Now I have to ask, am I wrong?
As far as TESO being called a WoW clone, there are obviously some seriously pissed off Elder Scrolls fans who are upset that the game doesn't live up to their expectations and calling a game a WoW clone is one of the biggest insults you can use on this forum without getting moded.
TESO isn't a WoW clone and neither is GW2.
It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone.
I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game.
Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.
Do you really not know? Okay, I'm going to assume you really don't.
1.) GW2 has introduced new things to the game that its departure from it predecessor became acceptable to the supporters. It so happens that their decisions clicked with what the players are looking for.
2.) During WoW's inception there wasn't as much "EQ" clones back then to make its fans grab pitchforks and burn Blizzard. Also, Warcraft was a RTS. WoW is a MMORPG, not a MMORTS. Also I believe WoW was criticized by diehard WC3 fans because they sensed the end of Warcraft as a RTS.
3.) TES has always been a single player RPG. People were asking for a multiplayer component, Bethesda keep saying 'no'. Alright, now they give us a MMORPG. Fans are quite divided because there are those who just want multiplayer, not a MMO (I can't judge which is the dominant faction). Additionally, TESO is being developed by Zenimax Online, not Bethesda. Some people have no trust with Zenimax Online, and it didnt help that in their interviews they do not hide the fact that they just can't add some stuff to the game "because it's hard to implement". Lastly, TES already has a design that works for RPGs. It was a twitchy action RPG. Fans want to keep that. Dropping this kind of combat system is what I think fans made calling the game a "WoW clone" (that was rather shallow of them), although upon closer inspection it really isn't. The changes they introduced to the game did not click with the players.
1) GW2 hasn't released anything new. Everything can be found in some format in older titles. It plays nothing like GW1. So if TESO is a clone, than so is GW2. I can say they cloned DAOC as well here.
2) yeah wow a EQ clone, but it's ok because there wasn't a lot of EQ clones back then. Ok so how many DAoC clones we have now days?
3) it's still the same company. Do you really believe the same people that made Warcraft made WoW? Wanting multiplayer TES is vague. That's why you have bth the MMORPG genre as well as a CORPG genre. The MMORPG genre is far more popular for a reason.
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
I wish he was making DAoC 2. But he's not. He may be trying to replicate the PvP, but the PvE is straight from WoW.
DAoC had housing. DAoc did NOT have instancing, solo quests, phasing, and all that garbage.
The only DAoC feature he mentioned was public dungeons, which are pointless when shared with instanced dungeons. In all his interviews he talks about WoW.
I was mostly referring to the 3-way Faction PvP which Firor seems to be pushing as much as possible. I completely agree with you that it's much closer to WoW than DAoC, but to me Firor is still trying to make DAoC 2, or at least one that will do better than DAoC 1, based on his own ideas of what went wrong with DAoC and he's using WoW as his source of "inspiration".
There are few MMOs that did better than DAoC 1.
And the 3 faction PvP is ESSENTIAL for any PvP game, glad he's pushing it. Now I wish he could push out all the singleplayer instance garbage out the door.
Well that's the thing. Based on what I read from Firor's interviews, it's as if the only thing he thinks DAoC did right, was the 3 Faction PvP. When you look at what DAoC players liked the most, the PvP is always at the top (and thus by definition the 3 Faction PvP), so it sort of reinforces his ideas that, while the PvP was great, that rest wasn't so great. Now what other MMORPG works really well? WoW! Well there you go, WoW with 3 Faction PvP.
Originally posted by Garvon3 Originally posted by MadnessRealm Originally posted by Garvon3 Originally posted by MadnessRealm Originally posted by MMOExposed
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
I wish he was making DAoC 2. But he's not. He may be trying to replicate the PvP, but the PvE is straight from WoW.
DAoC had housing. DAoc did NOT have instancing, solo quests, phasing, and all that garbage.
The only DAoC feature he mentioned was public dungeons, which are pointless when shared with instanced dungeons. In all his interviews he talks about WoW.
I was mostly referring to the 3-way Faction PvP which Firor seems to be pushing as much as possible. I completely agree with you that it's much closer to WoW than DAoC, but to me Firor is still trying to make DAoC 2, or at least one that will do better than DAoC 1, based on his own ideas of what went wrong with DAoC and he's using WoW as his source of "inspiration".
There are few MMOs that did better than DAoC 1.
And the 3 faction PvP is ESSENTIAL for any PvP game, glad he's pushing it. Now I wish he could push out all the singleplayer instance garbage out the door.
Well that's the thing. Based on what I read from Firor's interviews, it's as if the only thing he thinks DAoC did right, was the 3 Faction PvP. When you look at what DAoC players liked the most, the PvP is always at the top (and thus by definition the 3 Faction PvP), so it sort of reinforces his ideas that, while the PvP was great, that rest wasn't so great. Now what other MMORPG works really well? WoW! Well there you go, WoW with 3 Faction PvP.
You never explain how it's "WoW with 3 factions". You just keep saying that, but havnt explained a thing behind the statement.
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
I wish he was making DAoC 2. But he's not. He may be trying to replicate the PvP, but the PvE is straight from WoW.
DAoC had housing. DAoc did NOT have instancing, solo quests, phasing, and all that garbage.
The only DAoC feature he mentioned was public dungeons, which are pointless when shared with instanced dungeons. In all his interviews he talks about WoW.
I was mostly referring to the 3-way Faction PvP which Firor seems to be pushing as much as possible. I completely agree with you that it's much closer to WoW than DAoC, but to me Firor is still trying to make DAoC 2, or at least one that will do better than DAoC 1, based on his own ideas of what went wrong with DAoC and he's using WoW as his source of "inspiration".
There are few MMOs that did better than DAoC 1.
And the 3 faction PvP is ESSENTIAL for any PvP game, glad he's pushing it. Now I wish he could push out all the singleplayer instance garbage out the door.
Well that's the thing. Based on what I read from Firor's interviews, it's as if the only thing he thinks DAoC did right, was the 3 Faction PvP. When you look at what DAoC players liked the most, the PvP is always at the top (and thus by definition the 3 Faction PvP), so it sort of reinforces his ideas that, while the PvP was great, that rest wasn't so great. Now what other MMORPG works really well? WoW! Well there you go, WoW with 3 Faction PvP.
Er, except DAoC had some of the most well balanced and challenging PvE on the market, challenging well designed raids that weren't teired, and a huge crafting and housing system..
Originally posted by MMOExposed Well looking over this forum's activity, it seem like the community here views TESO as a WoW clone. This come sup in just about every thread.
But what I want to know is how/why is TESO being considered a WoW clone?
How is TESO considered a WoW clone but GW2 isn't?
TESO seems to share many features with GW2, except it has three faction PvP in the world shared by PvE. You still have active dodge and block mechanics like GW2, and you have class system like GW2, and I heard it has events, but not sure to what extent. Also TESO is being backed by some DAoC developers for PvP.
Sounds closest to GW2 than WoW. So how is it a WoW clone but not GW2?
Honesty, where does the WoW come into this at all?
I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone. That's probably the biggest reason.
And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you.
GW2 isn't a WoW clone because of it's skill system, combat system, zoned world, fair and balanced sPvP, WvW, crafting system, AH features, and focus on events over quest hubs just to name a few features. Now I have to ask, am I wrong?
As far as TESO being called a WoW clone, there are obviously some seriously pissed off Elder Scrolls fans who are upset that the game doesn't live up to their expectations and calling a game a WoW clone is one of the biggest insults you can use on this forum without getting moded.
TESO isn't a WoW clone and neither is GW2.
It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone.
I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game.
Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.
Do you really not know? Okay, I'm going to assume you really don't.
1.) GW2 has introduced new things to the game that its departure from it predecessor became acceptable to the supporters. It so happens that their decisions clicked with what the players are looking for.
2.) During WoW's inception there wasn't as much "EQ" clones back then to make its fans grab pitchforks and burn Blizzard. Also, Warcraft was a RTS. WoW is a MMORPG, not a MMORTS. Also I believe WoW was criticized by diehard WC3 fans because they sensed the end of Warcraft as a RTS.
3.) TES has always been a single player RPG. People were asking for a multiplayer component, Bethesda keep saying 'no'. Alright, now they give us a MMORPG. Fans are quite divided because there are those who just want multiplayer, not a MMO (I can't judge which is the dominant faction). Additionally, TESO is being developed by Zenimax Online, not Bethesda. Some people have no trust with Zenimax Online, and it didnt help that in their interviews they do not hide the fact that they just can't add some stuff to the game "because it's hard to implement". Lastly, TES already has a design that works for RPGs. It was a twitchy action RPG. Fans want to keep that. Dropping this kind of combat system is what I think fans made calling the game a "WoW clone" (that was rather shallow of them), although upon closer inspection it really isn't. The changes they introduced to the game did not click with the players.
1) GW2 hasn't released anything new. Everything can be found in some format in older titles. It plays nothing like GW1. So if TESO is a clone, than so is GW2. I can say they cloned DAOC as well here.
2) yeah wow a EQ clone, but it's ok because there wasn't a lot of EQ clones back then. Ok so how many DAoC clones we have now days?
3) it's still the same company. Do you really believe the same people that made Warcraft made WoW? Wanting multiplayer TES is vague. That's why you have bth the MMORPG genre as well as a CORPG genre. The MMORPG genre is far more popular for a reason.
Your OP was just about WoW clone branding. I dont think it warrants bringing up DAOC into this, which has never been an issue.
1.) I don't want to get into this wheel again. GW2 introduced new things to GW1 was what I said, not to the genre. And I also don't want to get into the innovative circle either. I'm done with that "Everything can be found in some format in older titles", because while that is true, it's also true that "There's not one MMORPG out there that delivered them all in the one package as GW2 did". It's a stalemate. It's also not about how the sequel plays nothing than its predecessor. It's the acceptance to the change that matters here. It's the perception of improvement. If TESO is considered a WoW clone, these same people should also view GW2 as a WoW clone, just as you said. We agree as much as that.
2.) I don't see people being tired of DAoC clones yet. How many do we have indeed? Games that are active, take note.
3.) WC is a RTS. For a RPG Blizzard decided to go with a different designer. But it's important to note that Rob Pardo, designer of WC3 was one of the designers in WoW (up until BC?). It shouldn't also make it an automatic negative that ZO is handling TESO instead of Bethesda, but their interviews did not help their image to the already pessimistic. I don't have any comment on your views on multiplayer, CORPG and MMORPG. I personally just wanted to play Oblivion and Skyrim along with my brother and wife. It doesn't matter to me if its a MMO or LAN multiplayer (although LAN would be more favorable to me).
Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by Stizzled Originally posted by MMOExposed Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.
The difference here is that going from GW1 to GW2, and from the Warcraft RTS series to WoW, was an upgrade, the devs pushed those IPs foward. They didn't rip anything from them, only added on. With TESO they're just ripping so many things out, the dumbed down MMO combat, strict classes, race locked factions, housing, etc., the list goes on and on. Not to mention that most IPs won't ever get more than one MMO attempt, meaning that this is it, there's basically no hope of ever seeing a true ES MMO.
As for it being called a WoW clone, I dunno, I can't honestly say that I've read people saying it that much. I've seen a lot of people crying about it being a themepark (which isn't the same thing as being a WoW clone) and not a sandbox. Honestly, it being a themepark doesn't bother me, it's the least of my concerns with the game.
Huh? Dumbing down the combat? When did Elder Scrolls have good combat? Even Skyrim's combat was bashed by the general community. Seem people forget that. Also it has active blocking and dodging mechanics now, and better spells to fight with rather than all that useless filler junk found in Oblivion and Skyrim.
Also race factions are in Skyrim as well. Where you been? The story was a all out war between races. This fit well with the multiplayer side of the game. Since TES doesn't have multiplayer at all. What's to model this after?
Also housing in TES wasn't big deal since the world was scripted for that. That doesn't work well in a MMO that has large population. Look at DR and MO. These locations would be dominated by a certain group of players. Only other option is to make it Instanced. Which defeats the point.
Also the main appeal of TES was the exploration in PvE (since it has no PvP). I don't see how you can't explore in TESO.
Oblivion and Skyrim have both had decent combat, are there games that do it better? Well, sure there are, but the combat works well enough, and a hell of a lot better than any MMO with that combat style (DF, MO).
I don't know what your talking about as far as factions in Skyrim go. Yes there are the Stormcloaks and the Imperial Legion, but last time I played I could choose to join either with any race. That choice wasn't made for me by the developers, which is what they're doing with this game. From what I've heard DAoC's faction's were locked in their zones and couldn't interact except for in the RvR areas, considering that this game is modeled heavily off of DAoC I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same here.
Housing has always been instanced in TES, when you click on that door and go through the loading screen your going into an instance. So, I don't see how that would be a problem, were there to be housing in this game I would expect it to work exactly as it does in the singleplayer games. There might be more houses per city, but those houses would be owned by multiple people, each owning their own instance of it.
There is no reason that they can't do these things in an MMO. All of them have been done before by one game or another. They simply just don't want to. They're making a themepark MMO for themepark MMO fans. I don't think they really care about ES fans, which makes me wonder why they even chose this IP in the first place.
It's a different genre. Why didn't Blizzard make WoW into a MMORTS for the Warcraft fans? Because it doesn't work like that. Different genre= different gameplay design.
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
I wish he was making DAoC 2. But he's not. He may be trying to replicate the PvP, but the PvE is straight from WoW.
DAoC had housing. DAoc did NOT have instancing, solo quests, phasing, and all that garbage.
The only DAoC feature he mentioned was public dungeons, which are pointless when shared with instanced dungeons. In all his interviews he talks about WoW.
I was mostly referring to the 3-way Faction PvP which Firor seems to be pushing as much as possible. I completely agree with you that it's much closer to WoW than DAoC, but to me Firor is still trying to make DAoC 2, or at least one that will do better than DAoC 1, based on his own ideas of what went wrong with DAoC and he's using WoW as his source of "inspiration".
There are few MMOs that did better than DAoC 1.
And the 3 faction PvP is ESSENTIAL for any PvP game, glad he's pushing it. Now I wish he could push out all the singleplayer instance garbage out the door.
Well that's the thing. Based on what I read from Firor's interviews, it's as if the only thing he thinks DAoC did right, was the 3 Faction PvP. When you look at what DAoC players liked the most, the PvP is always at the top (and thus by definition the 3 Faction PvP), so it sort of reinforces his ideas that, while the PvP was great, that rest wasn't so great. Now what other MMORPG works really well? WoW! Well there you go, WoW with 3 Faction PvP.
Er, except DAoC had some of the most well balanced and challenging PvE on the market, challenging well designed raids that weren't teired, and a huge crafting and housing system..
Not if you look at WoW (or at least in Firor's mind). Having a bit of a hard time explaining in text what I'm trying to say, but here goes.
The PvP is nearly always the first feature that comes out in discussions when DAoC is mentionned. The PvE may have been the best (which is a bit more subjective in that area), but I think most players, or at least most you see active today on Forums like MMORPG.com talking about DAoC usually refers to the PvP. Very few MMOs have tried to re-introduce the 3-Faction PvP since as well which sort of reinforces the idea, whereas there are tons of PvE MMOs offering various kind of experience (because there's more competition in the PvE department than there is for the 3-Faction PvP department, or at least the kind of PvP we had back with UO, DAoC,etc that contained more meaning than today's MMOs with arena-type PvP or battlegrounds).
Back to my main point. What I believe is that, to Firor, while DAoC has offered the best PvP experience, it felt short in other areas. Players gradually left DAoC as new expansions rolled out that players didn't very like (TOA), but the PvP remains one of the main features still remembered and hailed by ex-players today. Without a doubt, Firor and his team thought that addititions that came from ToA and subsequent expansions were necessary to change certain things (or attempt to reach a larger audience). So what I'm seeing is Firor going "Well the PvE changes we made to DAoC didn't work out, what works out in MMOs today?". WoW is his answer. It's a misguided answer, but seeing how much he's using WoW as reference leads me to believe that I'm not too far off.
Originally posted by MMOExposed It's a different genre. Why didn't Blizzard make WoW into a MMORTS for the Warcraft fans? Because it doesn't work like that. Different genre= different gameplay design.
It's actually not a different genre. The only difference between a singleplayer RPG and an MMORPG is that one is played by a massive amount of people in an online setting. They're both sub-genres of the RPG genre. Warcraft wasn't an RPG, so when they wen't to make a Warcraft MMORPG, it became an RPG. With TES, it's already an RPG, all they need to do is put it in a massive online setting, but instead they're redesigning it... as another RPG, it doesn't make sense. The excuse that it can't have these things because it's an MMO is complete bullshit and anyone with half a brain should know it.
GW1=CORPG
GW2=MMORPG
Notice they play Nothing alike. Two different genres.
Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.
The difference here is that going from GW1 to GW2, and from the Warcraft RTS series to WoW, was an upgrade, the devs pushed those IPs foward. They didn't rip anything from them, only added on. With TESO they're just ripping so many things out, the dumbed down MMO combat, strict classes, race locked factions, housing, etc., the list goes on and on. Not to mention that most IPs won't ever get more than one MMO attempt, meaning that this is it, there's basically no hope of ever seeing a true ES MMO.
As for it being called a WoW clone, I dunno, I can't honestly say that I've read people saying it that much. I've seen a lot of people crying about it being a themepark (which isn't the same thing as being a WoW clone) and not a sandbox. Honestly, it being a themepark doesn't bother me, it's the least of my concerns with the game.
Huh? Dumbing down the combat? When did Elder Scrolls have good combat? Even Skyrim's combat was bashed by the general community. Seem people forget that. Also it has active blocking and dodging mechanics now, and better spells to fight with rather than all that useless filler junk found in Oblivion and Skyrim.
Also race factions are in Skyrim as well. Where you been? The story was a all out war between races. This fit well with the multiplayer side of the game. Since TES doesn't have multiplayer at all. What's to model this after?
Also housing in TES wasn't big deal since the world was scripted for that. That doesn't work well in a MMO that has large population. Look at DR and MO. These locations would be dominated by a certain group of players. Only other option is to make it Instanced. Which defeats the point.
Also the main appeal of TES was the exploration in PvE (since it has no PvP). I don't see how you can't explore in TESO.
Oblivion and Skyrim have both had decent combat, are there games that do it better? Well, sure there are, but the combat works well enough, and a hell of a lot better than any MMO with that combat style (DF, MO).
I don't know what your talking about as far as factions in Skyrim go. Yes there are the Stormcloaks and the Imperial Legion, but last time I played I could choose to join either with any race. That choice wasn't made for me by the developers, which is what they're doing with this game. From what I've heard DAoC's faction's were locked in their zones and couldn't interact except for in the RvR areas, considering that this game is modeled heavily off of DAoC I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same here.
Housing has always been instanced in TES, when you click on that door and go through the loading screen your going into an instance. So, I don't see how that would be a problem, were there to be housing in this game I would expect it to work exactly as it does in the singleplayer games. There might be more houses per city, but those houses would be owned by multiple people, each owning their own instance of it.
There is no reason that they can't do these things in an MMO. All of them have been done before by one game or another. They simply just don't want to. They're making a themepark MMO for themepark MMO fans. I don't think they really care about ES fans, which makes me wonder why they even chose this IP in the first place.
It's a different genre. Why didn't Blizzard make WoW into a MMORTS for the Warcraft fans? Because it doesn't work like that. Different genre= different gameplay design.
This is no longer about WoW clone, but Stizzled has a point. A change from SRPG to MMORPG does not automatically mean highlighted features in TES need to be changed. Twitch combat still works for MMOs (not saying the current design sucks). Predetermined factions are a staple of themepark MMOs, but I don't see it to be impossible to have players start with a blank faction and earn it in-game. It may just be a design preference for them but it's not techincal limitation, or a limitation brought upon by the genre. Well, player housing shouldn't be explained...
Notice they play Nothing alike. Two different genres.
Having never played either one of those games, I'm curious, what is in GW1 that you can't do in GW2? Did they take anything away, or just add on to it and make it bigger and better? My understanding of GW1 was that you join instanced adventures or PvP matches from a central town (lobby). With GW2, you still have those instanced andventures, and towns, and arenas, except now it's all placed within a world (although instanced).
I'm just curious if the amount of things they took out of GW1 to make it an MMO in GW2 is as much as they're taking away with TESO.
A persistant world is really the difference that makes GW2 an mmo and GW1 not an mmo.
It's a different genre. Why didn't Blizzard make WoW into a MMORTS for the Warcraft fans? Because it doesn't work like that. Different genre= different gameplay design.
It's actually not a different genre. The only difference between a singleplayer RPG and an MMORPG is that one is played by a massive amount of people in an online setting. They're both sub-genres of the RPG genre. Warcraft wasn't an RPG, so when they wen't to make a Warcraft MMORPG, it became an RPG. With TES, it's already an RPG, all they need to do is put it in a massive online setting, but instead they're redesigning it... as another RPG, it doesn't make sense. The excuse that it can't have these things because it's an MMO is complete bullshit and anyone with half a brain should know it.
GW1=CORPG
GW2=MMORPG
Notice they play Nothing alike. Two different genres.
Actually, they play quite similarly. Both have the same general design ideas and philosophies behind them; GW2 was just able to fulfil the developers dreams better in an open world thanks to a larger budget.
A CORPG is halfway between an RPG and an MMO, leaning more towards the MMO side. This is hugely different from crossing genre lines.
Notice they play Nothing alike. Two different genres.
Having never played either one of those games, I'm curious, what is in GW1 that you can't do in GW2? Did they take anything away, or just add on to it and make it bigger and better? My understanding of GW1 was that you join instanced adventures or PvP matches from a central town (lobby). With GW2, you still have those instanced andventures, and towns, and arenas, except now it's all placed within a world (although instanced).
I'm just curious if the amount of things they took out of GW1 to make it an MMO in GW2 is as much as they're taking away with TESO.
A persistant world is really the difference that makes GW2 an mmo and GW1 not an mmo.
Maybe I'm just a knucklehead but can you define persistent? I see that a lot but don't really know the MMO meaning.
Notice they play Nothing alike. Two different genres.
Having never played either one of those games, I'm curious, what is in GW1 that you can't do in GW2? Did they take anything away, or just add on to it and make it bigger and better? My understanding of GW1 was that you join instanced adventures or PvP matches from a central town (lobby). With GW2, you still have those instanced andventures, and towns, and arenas, except now it's all placed within a world (although instanced).
I'm just curious if the amount of things they took out of GW1 to make it an MMO in GW2 is as much as they're taking away with TESO.
GW2 doesn't have bodyblocking or interruption skills because they are going for bigger battles. Also GW1 had a heavy deck building aspect with its thousands of skills and GW2 no longer has energy management, its all cooldowns now.
It uses the same engine, looks sort of like GW1, but the game underneath is very different. They changed pretty much everything. Best I could describe GW1's combat is its team-based real-time Magic the Gathering, whereas GW2 is more in the direction of MOBAs without the creeps.
GW2 is a good game, but I'm also disappointed that they didn't build on GW1 and perhaps keep it as a CORPG.
EDIT: Added stuff...
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Notice they play Nothing alike. Two different genres.
Having never played either one of those games, I'm curious, what is in GW1 that you can't do in GW2? Did they take anything away, or just add on to it and make it bigger and better? My understanding of GW1 was that you join instanced adventures or PvP matches from a central town (lobby). With GW2, you still have those instanced andventures, and towns, and arenas, except now it's all placed within a world (although instanced).
I'm just curious if the amount of things they took out of GW1 to make it an MMO in GW2 is as much as they're taking away with TESO.
A persistant world is really the difference that makes GW2 an mmo and GW1 not an mmo.
Maybe I'm just a knucklehead but can you define persistent? I see that a lot but don't really know the MMO meaning.
Meaning the state of the world is always there no matter who is in it. In GW each area was an instance. Once you left that area to another area it will reset.
As for the topic, it certainly isn't a wow clone. Despite what others in this thread are telling you.
It's like saying a Honda Civic is a Corvette clone because they are both cars.
That doesn't stop silly people from posting theyre clones just because they don't like 'em. Its just venting. You just have to wish they'd punch a wall instead.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Notice they play Nothing alike. Two different genres.
Having never played either one of those games, I'm curious, what is in GW1 that you can't do in GW2? Did they take anything away, or just add on to it and make it bigger and better? My understanding of GW1 was that you join instanced adventures or PvP matches from a central town (lobby). With GW2, you still have those instanced andventures, and towns, and arenas, except now it's all placed within a world (although instanced).
I'm just curious if the amount of things they took out of GW1 to make it an MMO in GW2 is as much as they're taking away with TESO.
A persistant world is really the difference that makes GW2 an mmo and GW1 not an mmo.
Maybe I'm just a knucklehead but can you define persistent? I see that a lot but don't really know the MMO meaning.
It means that the world is always there regardless of player interaction, and indirectly that player interaction may be able to influence it semi-permanently.
This is opposed to "instanced" maps such as GW1, where only your group was visible and a special version of the map is created just for you while you'r ethere, disappearing after you leave.
Comments
Do you really not know? Okay, I'm going to assume you really don't.
1.) GW2 has introduced new things to the game that its departure from it predecessor became acceptable to the supporters. It so happens that their decisions clicked with what the players are looking for.
2.) During WoW's inception there wasn't as much "EQ" clones back then to make its fans grab pitchforks and burn Blizzard. Also, Warcraft was a RTS. WoW is a MMORPG, not a MMORTS. Also I believe WoW was criticized by diehard WC3 fans because they sensed the end of Warcraft as a RTS.
3.) TES has always been a single player RPG. People were asking for a multiplayer component, Bethesda keep saying 'no'. Alright, now they give us a MMORPG. Fans are quite divided because there are those who just want multiplayer, not a MMO (I can't judge which is the dominant faction). Additionally, TESO is being developed by Zenimax Online, not Bethesda. Some people have no trust with Zenimax Online, and it didnt help that in their interviews they do not hide the fact that they just can't add some stuff to the game "because it's hard to implement". Lastly, TES already has a design that works for RPGs. It was a twitchy action RPG. Fans want to keep that. Dropping this kind of combat system is what I think fans made calling the game a "WoW clone" (that was rather shallow of them), although upon closer inspection it really isn't. The changes they introduced to the game did not click with the players.
It's easy to spot the clones. Goldeneye Wii was a CoD clone.
LotRO was a WoW clone. AoC was a WoW clone.
It's really not that difficult. "Well yeah, every MMO has quest based leveling and the same UI and class advancement system! Thats cause they're MMOs, not clones!" So here's the correction. All WoW clones have the same class systems and quest based leveling. Older MMOs did not have these things. They were all radically different from one another.
I actually argued the opposite in a previous thread on the TESO sub-forum. A lot of features that exist in the TES universe actually already exist in various MMOs. The only thing is that no developers has attempted to put them together.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5147030#5147030
It's not the best list ever, as it was done in haste, but the point is that the ideas are already out there. They just need to be put into a single game, and adapted to fit with the TES IP.
GW2 isn't a WoW clone because of it's skill system, combat system, zoned world, fair and balanced sPvP, WvW, crafting system, AH features, and focus on events over quest hubs just to name a few features. Now I have to ask, am I wrong?
As far as TESO being called a WoW clone, there are obviously some seriously pissed off Elder Scrolls fans who are upset that the game doesn't live up to their expectations and calling a game a WoW clone is one of the biggest insults you can use on this forum without getting moded.
TESO isn't a WoW clone and neither is GW2.
It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone.
I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game.
Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.There's a big difference in perception. GW2 is seen as an improvement to GW1 as well as an attempt to move away from the traditional model common to our industry. The Warcraft IP (WC1 to WC3) was not an RPG to begin with. In this case there'd be a lot less resistance towards the creation of an MMO based on the IP. Blizzard also did not make the mistake of taking out of the game, but rather to heavily expand upon it through a different medium.
TES on the other hand, is an IP that many players have been wishing to see in the multiplayer/MMO-sphere for a while now. TES is, much like Warcraft is, a very well-established IP. Unlike Warcraft however, TES is an open-ended RPG with a vast lore and features that have really set TES apart. I think this is the main reason why we see such resistance towards TESO. TESO isn't content with the MMO portion, they're replacing the whole RPG part as well. TESO has also not decided to follow the lore all that much, so you end up with Factions that contains races that shouldn't necessarily be together. A combat system that is quite the opposite of what TES has offered from the beginning. Exploration and Lore set on the side. The more fleshed-out AI is also left out (Radiant AI). Features like housing are left out (because they're too hard according to Matt Firor).
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
WoW is EQ with Warcraft ip slapped on top. That's what happen when you cross genre. GW1 was a CORPG, and GW2 is a MMORPG. They play nothing alike. If you change the ip, nobody would even know they have anything related. Same thing apply here with TESO. Its a different genre of gaming. TES is a SRPG and TESO is a MMORPG..You say TES is open ended, well what suggest TESO isn't as well? You can explore and venture to do whatever you want in any mmorpg. Why should TESO be any different. Hey TES didn't even have multiplayer.
Look at Skyrim. Now look at any THEMEPARK MMO. You can do everything in skyrim in any standard THEMEPARK MMO. Explore, make builds using trees, and kill random crap and do quest.
TESO allows you to do this and more. It has Massive PVP wars which TES didn't have, because it had NO-MULTIPLAYER AT ALL.
And this time around you get a better combat system with active dodge and blocking, without the lame Skyrim combat. Who really like having to go into a menu to activate different spells and skills? That's lame.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I was mostly referring to the 3-way Faction PvP which Firor seems to be pushing as much as possible. I completely agree with you that it's much closer to WoW than DAoC, but to me Firor is still trying to make DAoC 2, or at least one that will do better than DAoC 1, based on his own ideas of what went wrong with DAoC and he's using WoW as his source of "inspiration".
There are few MMOs that did better than DAoC 1.
And the 3 faction PvP is ESSENTIAL for any PvP game, glad he's pushing it. Now I wish he could push out all the singleplayer instance garbage out the door.
I'll just stop here. I think you show a pretty great amount of ignorance on the subjects. The first paragraph, the first sentence even, is enough to tell me so. My answers are there, if you still do not understand them, no amount of arguing will change that.
GW2 isn't a WoW clone because of it's skill system, combat system, zoned world, fair and balanced sPvP, WvW, crafting system, AH features, and focus on events over quest hubs just to name a few features. Now I have to ask, am I wrong?
As far as TESO being called a WoW clone, there are obviously some seriously pissed off Elder Scrolls fans who are upset that the game doesn't live up to their expectations and calling a game a WoW clone is one of the biggest insults you can use on this forum without getting moded.
TESO isn't a WoW clone and neither is GW2.
It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone.
I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game.
Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.Do you really not know? Okay, I'm going to assume you really don't.
1.) GW2 has introduced new things to the game that its departure from it predecessor became acceptable to the supporters. It so happens that their decisions clicked with what the players are looking for.
2.) During WoW's inception there wasn't as much "EQ" clones back then to make its fans grab pitchforks and burn Blizzard. Also, Warcraft was a RTS. WoW is a MMORPG, not a MMORTS. Also I believe WoW was criticized by diehard WC3 fans because they sensed the end of Warcraft as a RTS.
3.) TES has always been a single player RPG. People were asking for a multiplayer component, Bethesda keep saying 'no'. Alright, now they give us a MMORPG. Fans are quite divided because there are those who just want multiplayer, not a MMO (I can't judge which is the dominant faction). Additionally, TESO is being developed by Zenimax Online, not Bethesda. Some people have no trust with Zenimax Online, and it didnt help that in their interviews they do not hide the fact that they just can't add some stuff to the game "because it's hard to implement". Lastly, TES already has a design that works for RPGs. It was a twitchy action RPG. Fans want to keep that. Dropping this kind of combat system is what I think fans made calling the game a "WoW clone" (that was rather shallow of them), although upon closer inspection it really isn't. The changes they introduced to the game did not click with the players.
1) GW2 hasn't released anything new. Everything can be found in some format in older titles. It plays nothing like GW1. So if TESO is a clone, than so is GW2. I can say they cloned DAOC as well here.2) yeah wow a EQ clone, but it's ok because there wasn't a lot of EQ clones back then. Ok so how many DAoC clones we have now days?
3) it's still the same company. Do you really believe the same people that made Warcraft made WoW? Wanting multiplayer TES is vague. That's why you have bth the MMORPG genre as well as a CORPG genre. The MMORPG genre is far more popular for a reason.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Well that's the thing. Based on what I read from Firor's interviews, it's as if the only thing he thinks DAoC did right, was the 3 Faction PvP. When you look at what DAoC players liked the most, the PvP is always at the top (and thus by definition the 3 Faction PvP), so it sort of reinforces his ideas that, while the PvP was great, that rest wasn't so great. Now what other MMORPG works really well? WoW! Well there you go, WoW with 3 Faction PvP.
Essentially, if you read Matt Firor's interviews, you'll quickly get the feeling that he doesn't care all that much about TES. He's making DAoC 2 and slapping the TES name on top of it. You'll also see why they're leaving features out (such as housing as mentionned in the previous post, where Firor claimed that it would be too hard to implement). This is why TESO is getting bashed.
I wish he was making DAoC 2. But he's not. He may be trying to replicate the PvP, but the PvE is straight from WoW.
DAoC had housing. DAoc did NOT have instancing, solo quests, phasing, and all that garbage.
The only DAoC feature he mentioned was public dungeons, which are pointless when shared with instanced dungeons. In all his interviews he talks about WoW.
I was mostly referring to the 3-way Faction PvP which Firor seems to be pushing as much as possible. I completely agree with you that it's much closer to WoW than DAoC, but to me Firor is still trying to make DAoC 2, or at least one that will do better than DAoC 1, based on his own ideas of what went wrong with DAoC and he's using WoW as his source of "inspiration".
There are few MMOs that did better than DAoC 1.
And the 3 faction PvP is ESSENTIAL for any PvP game, glad he's pushing it. Now I wish he could push out all the singleplayer instance garbage out the door.
Well that's the thing. Based on what I read from Firor's interviews, it's as if the only thing he thinks DAoC did right, was the 3 Faction PvP. When you look at what DAoC players liked the most, the PvP is always at the top (and thus by definition the 3 Faction PvP), so it sort of reinforces his ideas that, while the PvP was great, that rest wasn't so great. Now what other MMORPG works really well? WoW! Well there you go, WoW with 3 Faction PvP.
You never explain how it's "WoW with 3 factions". You just keep saying that, but havnt explained a thing behind the statement.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Er, except DAoC had some of the most well balanced and challenging PvE on the market, challenging well designed raids that weren't teired, and a huge crafting and housing system..
The man who asks the tough questions.
Yeah I want to know too.
Your OP was just about WoW clone branding. I dont think it warrants bringing up DAOC into this, which has never been an issue.
1.) I don't want to get into this wheel again. GW2 introduced new things to GW1 was what I said, not to the genre. And I also don't want to get into the innovative circle either. I'm done with that "Everything can be found in some format in older titles", because while that is true, it's also true that "There's not one MMORPG out there that delivered them all in the one package as GW2 did". It's a stalemate. It's also not about how the sequel plays nothing than its predecessor. It's the acceptance to the change that matters here. It's the perception of improvement. If TESO is considered a WoW clone, these same people should also view GW2 as a WoW clone, just as you said. We agree as much as that.
2.) I don't see people being tired of DAoC clones yet. How many do we have indeed? Games that are active, take note.
3.) WC is a RTS. For a RPG Blizzard decided to go with a different designer. But it's important to note that Rob Pardo, designer of WC3 was one of the designers in WoW (up until BC?). It shouldn't also make it an automatic negative that ZO is handling TESO instead of Bethesda, but their interviews did not help their image to the already pessimistic. I don't have any comment on your views on multiplayer, CORPG and MMORPG. I personally just wanted to play Oblivion and Skyrim along with my brother and wife. It doesn't matter to me if its a MMO or LAN multiplayer (although LAN would be more favorable to me).
The difference here is that going from GW1 to GW2, and from the Warcraft RTS series to WoW, was an upgrade, the devs pushed those IPs foward. They didn't rip anything from them, only added on. With TESO they're just ripping so many things out, the dumbed down MMO combat, strict classes, race locked factions, housing, etc., the list goes on and on. Not to mention that most IPs won't ever get more than one MMO attempt, meaning that this is it, there's basically no hope of ever seeing a true ES MMO.
As for it being called a WoW clone, I dunno, I can't honestly say that I've read people saying it that much. I've seen a lot of people crying about it being a themepark (which isn't the same thing as being a WoW clone) and not a sandbox. Honestly, it being a themepark doesn't bother me, it's the least of my concerns with the game.
Huh? Dumbing down the combat? When did Elder Scrolls have good combat? Even Skyrim's combat was bashed by the general community. Seem people forget that.Also it has active blocking and dodging mechanics now, and better spells to fight with rather than all that useless filler junk found in Oblivion and Skyrim.
Also race factions are in Skyrim as well. Where you been? The story was a all out war between races. This fit well with the multiplayer side of the game. Since TES doesn't have multiplayer at all. What's to model this after?
Also housing in TES wasn't big deal since the world was scripted for that. That doesn't work well in a MMO that has large population. Look at DR and MO. These locations would be dominated by a certain group of players. Only other option is to make it Instanced. Which defeats the point.
Also the main appeal of TES was the exploration in PvE (since it has no PvP). I don't see how you can't explore in TESO.
Oblivion and Skyrim have both had decent combat, are there games that do it better? Well, sure there are, but the combat works well enough, and a hell of a lot better than any MMO with that combat style (DF, MO).
I don't know what your talking about as far as factions in Skyrim go. Yes there are the Stormcloaks and the Imperial Legion, but last time I played I could choose to join either with any race. That choice wasn't made for me by the developers, which is what they're doing with this game. From what I've heard DAoC's faction's were locked in their zones and couldn't interact except for in the RvR areas, considering that this game is modeled heavily off of DAoC I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same here.
Housing has always been instanced in TES, when you click on that door and go through the loading screen your going into an instance. So, I don't see how that would be a problem, were there to be housing in this game I would expect it to work exactly as it does in the singleplayer games. There might be more houses per city, but those houses would be owned by multiple people, each owning their own instance of it.
There is no reason that they can't do these things in an MMO. All of them have been done before by one game or another. They simply just don't want to. They're making a themepark MMO for themepark MMO fans. I don't think they really care about ES fans, which makes me wonder why they even chose this IP in the first place.
It's a different genre. Why didn't Blizzard make WoW into a MMORTS for the Warcraft fans? Because it doesn't work like that. Different genre= different gameplay design.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Not if you look at WoW (or at least in Firor's mind). Having a bit of a hard time explaining in text what I'm trying to say, but here goes.
The PvP is nearly always the first feature that comes out in discussions when DAoC is mentionned. The PvE may have been the best (which is a bit more subjective in that area), but I think most players, or at least most you see active today on Forums like MMORPG.com talking about DAoC usually refers to the PvP. Very few MMOs have tried to re-introduce the 3-Faction PvP since as well which sort of reinforces the idea, whereas there are tons of PvE MMOs offering various kind of experience (because there's more competition in the PvE department than there is for the 3-Faction PvP department, or at least the kind of PvP we had back with UO, DAoC,etc that contained more meaning than today's MMOs with arena-type PvP or battlegrounds).
Back to my main point. What I believe is that, to Firor, while DAoC has offered the best PvP experience, it felt short in other areas. Players gradually left DAoC as new expansions rolled out that players didn't very like (TOA), but the PvP remains one of the main features still remembered and hailed by ex-players today. Without a doubt, Firor and his team thought that addititions that came from ToA and subsequent expansions were necessary to change certain things (or attempt to reach a larger audience). So what I'm seeing is Firor going "Well the PvE changes we made to DAoC didn't work out, what works out in MMOs today?". WoW is his answer. It's a misguided answer, but seeing how much he's using WoW as reference leads me to believe that I'm not too far off.
It's actually not a different genre. The only difference between a singleplayer RPG and an MMORPG is that one is played by a massive amount of people in an online setting. They're both sub-genres of the RPG genre. Warcraft wasn't an RPG, so when they wen't to make a Warcraft MMORPG, it became an RPG. With TES, it's already an RPG, all they need to do is put it in a massive online setting, but instead they're redesigning it... as another RPG, it doesn't make sense. The excuse that it can't have these things because it's an MMO is complete bullshit and anyone with half a brain should know it.
GW1=CORPGGW2=MMORPG
Notice they play Nothing alike. Two different genres.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
This is no longer about WoW clone, but Stizzled has a point. A change from SRPG to MMORPG does not automatically mean highlighted features in TES need to be changed. Twitch combat still works for MMOs (not saying the current design sucks). Predetermined factions are a staple of themepark MMOs, but I don't see it to be impossible to have players start with a blank faction and earn it in-game. It may just be a design preference for them but it's not techincal limitation, or a limitation brought upon by the genre. Well, player housing shouldn't be explained...
A persistant world is really the difference that makes GW2 an mmo and GW1 not an mmo.
Actually, they play quite similarly. Both have the same general design ideas and philosophies behind them; GW2 was just able to fulfil the developers dreams better in an open world thanks to a larger budget.
A CORPG is halfway between an RPG and an MMO, leaning more towards the MMO side. This is hugely different from crossing genre lines.
Maybe I'm just a knucklehead but can you define persistent? I see that a lot but don't really know the MMO meaning.
GW2 doesn't have bodyblocking or interruption skills because they are going for bigger battles. Also GW1 had a heavy deck building aspect with its thousands of skills and GW2 no longer has energy management, its all cooldowns now.
It uses the same engine, looks sort of like GW1, but the game underneath is very different. They changed pretty much everything. Best I could describe GW1's combat is its team-based real-time Magic the Gathering, whereas GW2 is more in the direction of MOBAs without the creeps.
GW2 is a good game, but I'm also disappointed that they didn't build on GW1 and perhaps keep it as a CORPG.
EDIT: Added stuff...
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Meaning the state of the world is always there no matter who is in it. In GW each area was an instance. Once you left that area to another area it will reset.
As for the topic, it certainly isn't a wow clone. Despite what others in this thread are telling you.
It's like saying a Honda Civic is a Corvette clone because they are both cars.
That doesn't stop silly people from posting theyre clones just because they don't like 'em. Its just venting. You just have to wish they'd punch a wall instead.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It means that the world is always there regardless of player interaction, and indirectly that player interaction may be able to influence it semi-permanently.
This is opposed to "instanced" maps such as GW1, where only your group was visible and a special version of the map is created just for you while you'r ethere, disappearing after you leave.