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Not to long ago paying cash for gold was frowned upon,

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
     

    I don't think it was ever frowned upon by a majority of people, maybe (but I still doubt it) a majority of vocal forum posters.

    IMO it was only frowned upon publicly by a small percentage of people, publicly accepted by a small percentage  of people, privately accetped by a small percentage of peoplle.

    But the overwhelming majority just don't give a rats ass about it.  I would be one of those.  I truely/honestly do not care how you or other people play your game.  Buy whatever flaming sword of power or just cosmetic item, or nothing you want, I will continue to play my way.

    edit - the companies have now realized (actually the realized 6-7 years  ago) that most just don't care and so began putting the cs in pretty much every game on the market.  It still doesn't change how I or the majority play. 

    lol, I was just about to almost write the exact same thing.

    If it was frowned upon the gold sellers wouldn't have found a thriving business waiting for them.

    It's hard to tell developers that everyone hates it when the evidence is that so many people were doing it.

    Same thing with prohibition I might add. Or "Family Guy".

    My preference is not to have "true gold selling" but for me a bigger pain in the ass are bots and chat spam.

    I'd rather have game develpers sanction this type of marketplace if it will get rid of that crap once and for all.

     

  • gladosrev2gladosrev2 BialystokPosts: 203Member

    It has not changed and it's still frowned upon in any grind based game, where buying boosts reduces the endless grind, or serious boosts that work in PvP. Which means any game apart of GW2 :)

    My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570

  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by jackie28
    Originally posted by paroxysm

    Just to add to what I posted earlier...

    It's a moral question.  It's either right or wrong. 

    Indeed, but a moral question with zero moral gravity.  We're talking about revenue models in video games.  No one is going to hell over this.  I think it might be better classifiied as a gamesmanship issue, IF that.  Obviously professional sportsmen buy top of the line equipment and training with their considerable revenue from sponsors, yet no one determines that they are "cheating".   Ironically, I'm on your side.  I prefer to see a subscription model where the role of the developer is to insure fair gameplay.  I don't enjoy evaluating the necessity of a million micro-transactions WHILE I'm playing; let me decide up front what I'm in for, be that $15 for 30 days or whatever, and spend the rest of my time playing.  But as far as it being a moral issue, I'm not so sure that has weight, unless you mean by that you feel "strongly" about certain types of games.  That I agree with.

    Bad analogy.  They don't buy buckets.  They don't buy holes in one.  They don't buy steps closer to the finish line.  They don't buy touchdowns.  If gear is the reward of the action and you buy gear, you are buying the equivilent of the above or worse.

    Besides, famous athletes don't even buy their own equipment.  It's given to them so they advertise a brand or just because they are famous.  The ones with the money don't always have to spend it.

    Lastly, while I'm personally against buying power in games for reasons explained in my first post, not everyone feels the same.  In that post, I was just pointing out how fickle game makers are when it comes to what they believe vs what they can get a dollar for.

  • jackie28jackie28 Bensalem, PAPosts: 105Member

    I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by jackie28

    I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

    There is no such thing as true "fairness" in games.

    A friend can twink me.

    I may have more free time to grind than you.

    I think it is a mistake to look for fairness in games. People should look for fun instead.

  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by jackie28

    I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

    I was just trying to point out that some games go well above that and sell you the win, not just the means to help assure that win.  And, I agree with your first statement in this post("We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.").  Which, is basically cheating yourself from some of the entertainment.  As to the superior equipment statements, if you look there are rules/limits on what is allowed to be used.  Everyone is expected to abide by those rules.  Once in a while someone comes up with an idea that allows them an edge that doesn't get restricted by those rules.  A new rule is usually quick to follow the end of the season.

  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jackie28

    I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

    There is no such thing as true "fairness" in games.

    A friend can twink me.

    I may have more free time to grind than you.

    I think it is a mistake to look for fairness in games. People should look for fun instead.

    There is fairness in games.  Just most people have no problem doing things like using cheats or buying power instead of earning it.  Often they cheat and don't realize it's not them that got the win, but the cheat/exploit they used.  They are usually quick to brag about "skill" too.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by paroxysm
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jackie28

    I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

    There is no such thing as true "fairness" in games.

    A friend can twink me.

    I may have more free time to grind than you.

    I think it is a mistake to look for fairness in games. People should look for fun instead.

    There is fairness in games.  Just most people have no problem doing things like using cheats or buying power instead of earning it.  Often they cheat and don't realize it's not them that got the win, but the cheat/exploit they used.  They are usually quick to brag about "skill" too.

    If "fairness" is unenforceable, it is meaningless. If i have the uber sword, you won't know if i got twinked by a friend, use a cheat, or earn it. So the concept is practically meaningless.

    No dev has enough resources to plug all the holes & exploits.

    And once again, my point is that it is ultimately futile to try to obtain fairness in a GAME. Fun is much more important. If fairness impact your fun .. it is really too bad. You can either delude yourself that the game is fair, or go for some other form of entertainment.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by paroxysm
    Originally posted by jackie28

    I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

    I was just trying to point out that some games go well above that and sell you the win, not just the means to help assure that win.  And, I agree with your first statement in this post("We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.").  Which, is basically cheating yourself from some of the entertainment.  As to the superior equipment statements, if you look there are rules/limits on what is allowed to be used.  Everyone is expected to abide by those rules.  Once in a while someone comes up with an idea that allows them an edge that doesn't get restricted by those rules.  A new rule is usually quick to follow the end of the season.

    Why does it need to be fair to be entertaining? Entertainment comes from power, comes from progression, comes from seeing monster killed in creative manners.

    Fairness does not have to be in it. In fact, when i group, i seldom care if the guy earn his gear ... i care more if he has the right gear to make the run effiicient and fun.

  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by paroxysm
    Originally posted by jackie28

    I disagree.  We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.  In my analogy, it doesn't matter whether a corporate sponsor buys an athelete top of the line equipment or if they buy it themselves with their own money - its STILL twinking.  There is an outside benefit being leveraged that you and I don't possess on a "level" playing field.  That benefit could be money in your pocket or money someone else is willing to leverage FOR you.  This topic btw has been treated in depth over on the Terra Nova blog by a lot of smart people over nine years ago. 

    I was just trying to point out that some games go well above that and sell you the win, not just the means to help assure that win.  And, I agree with your first statement in this post("We're talking about whether item shops affect the fairness of a game adversely.").  Which, is basically cheating yourself from some of the entertainment.  As to the superior equipment statements, if you look there are rules/limits on what is allowed to be used.  Everyone is expected to abide by those rules.  Once in a while someone comes up with an idea that allows them an edge that doesn't get restricted by those rules.  A new rule is usually quick to follow the end of the season.

    Why does it need to be fair to be entertaining? Entertainment comes from power, comes from progression, comes from seeing monster killed in creative manners.

    Fairness does not have to be in it. In fact, when i group, i seldom care if the guy earn his gear ... i care more if he has the right gear to make the run effiicient and fun.


    Our definitions of entertainment are wildly different.  I find absolutely no entertainment in buying my way through a game or cheating to avoid the challenges of said game.  Being handed things with little to no work or challenge involved does not entertain me.  It's absolutely boring. 

    I care if a person bought or cheated their way to top gear because it usually means they won't know how to use it properly.

    Games are not coded with security in mind.  Often, they don't even learn from previous mistakes.  No software is coded perfectly and unable to have bugs or cheats/exploits/etc.  That said, there are a lot of levels to that.  Games are pretty much on the very bottom.  It's all afterthought to game makers.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by paroxysm
     


    Our definitions of entertainment are wildly different.  I find absolutely no entertainment in buying my way through a game or cheating to avoid the challenges of said game.  Being handed things with little to no work or challenge involved does not entertain me.  It's absolutely boring. 

    What does challenge has to do with money? Hard mode raid is hard. Diablo inferno is hard. It does not matter if you pump money into it or not.

    Plus, no one says YOU have to buy your way. It is a free world. You don't have to use the RMAH or cash shop. It does not affect YOUR challenge.

    I care if a person bought or cheated their way to top gear because it usually means they won't know how to use it properly.

    Using money/knowing how to play is two independent things. There are those who pay and don't play well, and those who do. If you go into a PUG, you won't know whether they pay anyway but you do know if they play well. If they play well, do you care if they pay? You can always quit when you encounter someone who does not know how to play (i did that all the time).

    Personally, i find as long as the gameplay is fun, RMT does not detract from it. In fact, in D3, it enchances it, because i can actualy sell stuff.

     

  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by paroxysm
     Our definitions of entertainment are wildly different.  I find absolutely no entertainment in buying my way through a game or cheating to avoid the challenges of said game.  Being handed things with little to no work or challenge involved does not entertain me.  It's absolutely boring. 

    What does challenge has to do with money? Hard mode raid is hard. Diablo inferno is hard. It does not matter if you pump money into it or not.

    Plus, no one says YOU have to buy your way. It is a free world. You don't have to use the RMAH or cash shop. It does not affect YOUR challenge.

    I care if a person bought or cheated their way to top gear because it usually means they won't know how to use it properly.

    Using money/knowing how to play is two independent things. There are those who pay and don't play well, and those who do. If you go into a PUG, you won't know whether they pay anyway but you do know if they play well. If they play well, do you care if they pay? You can always quit when you encounter someone who does not know how to play (i did that all the time).

    Personally, i find as long as the gameplay is fun, RMT does not detract from it. In fact, in D3, it enchances it, because i can actualy sell stuff.

     

    If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

    It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

    There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

    So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride San''doria, WIPosts: 3,988Member

    Money corrupts. This genre is no exception to that it seems. image

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon

    Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

    Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by paroxysm

     

    If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

    It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

    Not when then game is designed for the use. In Diablo 3 .. you cannot progress unless you use the auction house. I don't see a problem using the RMAH by selling stuff, and pumping real money back to my gear. I highly doubt i skip out any of the entertainment value of D3 because i use the RMAH.

    Plus i highly doubt using RMT to reduce the need of farming runs from 100 to 80 count as "reduction of entertainment value".

    There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

    So what? You quit if they are nto up to it. And not every MMOs allow loot ninjaing. You cannot ninja loot in D3 (well, not a MMO, but close enough). LFR in WOW is moving towards an independent loot system where everyone rolls their own loot.

    So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

    What is wrong with farming items to sell to other RMAH users? In fact, it provides EXTRA entertainment value because now i am excited to get a rare drop, which i cannot use, but i know will fetch a good price on the RMAH. In fact, that happened to me. I played a wiz and got an almost perfect Demon Hunter drop. I would be very frustrated if there is no RMAH.

    It is more fun .. when i am playing a fun game that occasionally make money.

    In fact, playing the AH (well, Blizz really needs to improve the AH interface in D3 .. it is awful, but that is another discussion) feels more exciting when it is RM rather than gold.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

    Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

    The market gives in to what players want.

    Look at D2 .. lots of RMT outside of the game. Blizz fixed all that in D3. Now there is no stigma to use RMT since it is officially sanctioned.

     

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,952Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by paroxysm

     

    If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

    It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

    Not when then game is designed for the use. In Diablo 3 .. you cannot progress unless you use the auction house. I don't see a problem using the RMAH by selling stuff, and pumping real money back to my gear. I highly doubt i skip out any of the entertainment value of D3 because i use the RMAH.

    Plus i highly doubt using RMT to reduce the need of farming runs from 100 to 80 count as "reduction of entertainment value".

    There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

    So what? You quit if they are nto up to it. And not every MMOs allow loot ninjaing. You cannot ninja loot in D3 (well, not a MMO, but close enough). LFR in WOW is moving towards an independent loot system where everyone rolls their own loot.

    So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

    What is wrong with farming items to sell to other RMAH users? In fact, it provides EXTRA entertainment value because now i am excited to get a rare drop, which i cannot use, but i know will fetch a good price on the RMAH. In fact, that happened to me. I played a wiz and got an almost perfect Demon Hunter drop. I would be very frustrated if there is no RMAH.

    It is more fun .. when i am playing a fun game that occasionally make money.

    In fact, playing the AH (well, Blizz really needs to improve the AH interface in D3 .. it is awful, but that is another discussion) feels more exciting when it is RM rather than gold.

     

     Glad the game is fun for you and thank the gods that there is other games to play.

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • Grand_NagusGrand_Nagus Dublin, GAPosts: 329Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laserit

    It comes with some things in life really...

    Things that were frowned upon in the past, are accepted and everyday in the future. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

    Fixed for you. Certain things have been condemned throughout human history, and some things that were actually approved of in the past are now condemned.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,215Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

    Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

    The market gives in to what players want.

    Look at D2 .. lots of RMT outside of the game. Blizz fixed all that in D3. Now there is no stigma to use RMT since it is officially sanctioned.

     

    Correct. It isn't caused by D3 or GW2 it's just that customers are creating a demand and it will be filled. I still frown on it but I'm not certain the majority of gamers do any more.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by paroxysm

     

    If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

    It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

    Not when then game is designed for the use. In Diablo 3 .. you cannot progress unless you use the auction house. I don't see a problem using the RMAH by selling stuff, and pumping real money back to my gear. I highly doubt i skip out any of the entertainment value of D3 because i use the RMAH.

    Plus i highly doubt using RMT to reduce the need of farming runs from 100 to 80 count as "reduction of entertainment value".

    There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

    So what? You quit if they are nto up to it. And not every MMOs allow loot ninjaing. You cannot ninja loot in D3 (well, not a MMO, but close enough). LFR in WOW is moving towards an independent loot system where everyone rolls their own loot.

    So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

    What is wrong with farming items to sell to other RMAH users? In fact, it provides EXTRA entertainment value because now i am excited to get a rare drop, which i cannot use, but i know will fetch a good price on the RMAH. In fact, that happened to me. I played a wiz and got an almost perfect Demon Hunter drop. I would be very frustrated if there is no RMAH.

    It is more fun .. when i am playing a fun game that occasionally make money.

    In fact, playing the AH (well, Blizz really needs to improve the AH interface in D3 .. it is awful, but that is another discussion) feels more exciting when it is RM rather than gold.

     


    If you can not progress in the game without buying items from the RMAH, then it's not a game worth playing in my opinion.  It is very poorly designed.

    Maybe if you are using the RMAH to get gear you can not yourself obtain otherwise just to avoid farming endlessly, the game just might not be worth playing.  Once you have that purchased gear, what is the point of that game other than using that top gear to find more gear just to sell to other players.  That's a horrible treadmill designed to do nothing but keep people buying and selling items.  For which the company takes a portion of the profits.  Sounds worse than a job to me.

    The only "extra" entertainment you see is greed.  It's not fun to me to buy gear to not have to work for it, to then use that gear to farm gear to sell to others, and repeat with them the bypassing of playing the game as well.

    Honestly, the only point that you have made and repeated multiple times is that you enjoy making money.  Blizzard will love to keep you as a customer since every time you make money off others, they make more money too in transaction fees.  Your entertainment has nothing to do with playing the game.  It's the same as theirs.  Greed.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

    Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

    The market gives in to what players want.

    Look at D2 .. lots of RMT outside of the game. Blizz fixed all that in D3. Now there is no stigma to use RMT since it is officially sanctioned.

     

    Correct. It isn't caused by D3 or GW2 it's just that customers are creating a demand and it will be filled. I still frown on it but I'm not certain the majority of gamers do any more.

    Why frown on something that so many wants? Remind me of Prohibition. It is totally illegical.

  • paroxysmparoxysm Nowhere, INPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    Isn't it curious how times have changed.  I remember the days (which werent that long ago) that if it was discovered you bought gold that was grounds for removal from most guilds.  Most of your online friends would cease to talk to you, etc.  It was basically the MMO equivalent of being a molester or something along those lines.

    Now, i remember in EQ2 when they added in a cash shop where you could buy stuff like appearance armor and such.  And even now there is backlash.  Personally i could care less about stuff like that.  If someone wanted to buy a furry jacket, as long as it didnt give them stats, fine.  Stuff like that, what i call fluff items, is ok to me.  Its when they can buy xp pots or gems they can turn into in game money, etc.

    The market gives in to what players want.

    Look at D2 .. lots of RMT outside of the game. Blizz fixed all that in D3. Now there is no stigma to use RMT since it is officially sanctioned.

     

    Correct. It isn't caused by D3 or GW2 it's just that customers are creating a demand and it will be filled. I still frown on it but I'm not certain the majority of gamers do any more.


    Do you adhere your beliefs to what others tell you is ok or do you make your own decisions and stick to your beliefs?

    Either you think it's wrong or you think it's fine.  But don't let a company tell you what to believe.

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member

    I wouldn't be surprised to find out that those who endorse gold selling are gold sellers themselves. Thus making their arguments extremely biased.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by paroxysm
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by paroxysm

     

    If  you pay to get better gear that what you get on your own, the challenge of those modes is less than what it would be with the gear you earned.  Especially true of games that use enrage timers as a gear check.

    It affects the challenge of those who use it.  As I said, I don't use them because it's paying to avoid part of the challenge/entertainment of the game.

    Not when then game is designed for the use. In Diablo 3 .. you cannot progress unless you use the auction house. I don't see a problem using the RMAH by selling stuff, and pumping real money back to my gear. I highly doubt i skip out any of the entertainment value of D3 because i use the RMAH.

    Plus i highly doubt using RMT to reduce the need of farming runs from 100 to 80 count as "reduction of entertainment value".

    There is a lesser chance of them knowing how to play if they buy all their gear.  Also means a greater chance of them causing the team to fail if they can't fill their role.  And lastly, it increase the chance of them rolling on an item that is bad for them and better for someone else and has a low % drop rate.

    So what? You quit if they are nto up to it. And not every MMOs allow loot ninjaing. You cannot ninja loot in D3 (well, not a MMO, but close enough). LFR in WOW is moving towards an independent loot system where everyone rolls their own loot.

    So if you buy the top gear from the RMAH, how long will you spend playing the last levels for anything other than farming items to sell to other RMAH users?

    What is wrong with farming items to sell to other RMAH users? In fact, it provides EXTRA entertainment value because now i am excited to get a rare drop, which i cannot use, but i know will fetch a good price on the RMAH. In fact, that happened to me. I played a wiz and got an almost perfect Demon Hunter drop. I would be very frustrated if there is no RMAH.

    It is more fun .. when i am playing a fun game that occasionally make money.

    In fact, playing the AH (well, Blizz really needs to improve the AH interface in D3 .. it is awful, but that is another discussion) feels more exciting when it is RM rather than gold.

     


    If you can not progress in the game without buying items from the RMAH, then it's not a game worth playing in my opinion.  It is very poorly designed.

    Maybe if you are using the RMAH to get gear you can not yourself obtain otherwise just to avoid farming endlessly, the game just might not be worth playing.  Once you have that purchased gear, what is the point of that game other than using that top gear to find more gear just to sell to other players.  That's a horrible treadmill designed to do nothing but keep people buying and selling items.  For which the company takes a portion of the profits.  Sounds worse than a job to me.

    The only "extra" entertainment you see is greed.  It's not fun to me to buy gear to not have to work for it, to then use that gear to farm gear to sell to others, and repeat with them the bypassing of playing the game as well.

    Honestly, the only point that you have made and repeated multiple times is that you enjoy making money.  Blizzard will love to keep you as a customer since every time you make money off others, they make more money too in transaction fees.  Your entertainment has nothing to do with playing the game.  It's the same as theirs.  Greed.


    I enjoy the combat mechanics too. To answer your questions:

    1) Whether it is worth playing is up to the user. Given the high sales of D3, obviously it is worth playing for many. For me, if i find the combat fun, and if the RMT part is either fun or neutral, the game is worth playing.

    2) It is not a job if combat is fun. If combat is not fun, i won't play independent of whether there is RMT. Secondly, the point is to beat Diablo .. you can't do that (or take very long) without using the AH. Oh, no one says i will play the game forever. When ti is finished, i move on.

    3) What is wrong with greed? It is human nature. There are whole CITIES (like Vegas) catering to that emotion. If i find it exciting to make money off the RMAH, i don't see a problem. Oh i am sure Blizz loves to keep me as a customer. Nothing wrong with that. They get money, and i get fun ... isn't that what game company is supposed to be about?

    The amount of money involved in D3 is small compared to a real job ... the right analogy is gambling, which is of course fun for many. So i see D3 as a good ARPG, with some RM gambling aspect thrown in.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Psychow

    I wouldn't be surprised to find out that those who endorse gold selling are gold sellers themselves. Thus making their arguments extremely biased.

    nah .. gold sellers don't have time to post in forums. They are busy making money.

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