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World of Warcraft: PTR Update 5.0.4 Brings Account-wide Achievements and More

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  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Isturi

    Yeah ??? Some how I do believe this is WoW last leg they have to stand on. Or bearly standing for that matter.

    Do you believe it is the overwhelming weight of their sub base or the overwehlming weight of the pile of money that is crushing their legs?

    Last leg.. my ass....if every other mmo could be 1/10th as lucky to have WoW's 'broken' legs.

  • PhelimReaghPhelimReagh New York, NYPosts: 647Member Uncommon

    Not to bash WoW or Blizzard, but since I've been playing a different game that churns out quality content often and regularly, it's strange to see how little new, worthwhile content enters Azeroth. I never would have thought that Blizzard was slacking so badly until I saw how a game is run properly.

    Blizzard's staff must be 10x the size of their next competitor, yet they just can't get stuff done like the non-300 pound gorillas.

    Those that enjoy WoW, good for them. I just feel a bit bad for them, sticking with habit instead of moving on to quality (and that can be found in numerous other places).

  • IsturiIsturi Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,509Member
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Isturi

    Yeah ??? Some how I do believe this is WoW last leg they have to stand on. Or bearly standing for that matter.

    Do you believe it is the overwhelming weight of their sub base or the overwehlming weight of the pile of money that is crushing their legs?

    Last leg.. my ass....if every other mmo could be 1/10th as lucky to have WoW's 'broken' legs.

    Remind me of this question when WoW goes F2P from lvl 1-60 or should I dare say 1-70 or 80? It is heading that way maybe not soon but it will happen mark my words.

    image

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Isturi
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Isturi

    Yeah ??? Some how I do believe this is WoW last leg they have to stand on. Or bearly standing for that matter.

    Do you believe it is the overwhelming weight of their sub base or the overwehlming weight of the pile of money that is crushing their legs?

    Last leg.. my ass....if every other mmo could be 1/10th as lucky to have WoW's 'broken' legs.

    Remind me of this question when WoW goes F2P from lvl 1-60 or should I dare say 1-70 or 80? It is heading that way maybe not soon but it will happen mark my words.

    If that happens, you will have to show me proof that it was directly tied to WoW 'failing' rather than simply changing its business model to fit the modern mmo pricing atmosphere.

    With the what, 2 or 3 sub-based mmo's left, its hard to pin f2p on 'failure' anymore.

  • waveslayerwaveslayer Salisbury, NCPosts: 355Member Uncommon

    WoW has been on my comp since day 1, between my kids and I, we have characters on 6 or 7 servers, all servers have multitudes of ppl, each guild I have characters in have anywhere from 5 to 30 ppl on regardless of the time of day or night. Run into new players all the time as well as many who have been playing for years.

    I like the game still, detest the general community though, run with chat turned of in the citys 90% of the time. Yes the game has changed but for me it remains fun, I am not the type of person that playes for hours and hours at a time, nor every day. so that may have something to do with why it stays fun.

    And yes I have played every new game that comes out, and I often sub to other games along with WoW.

    I know its kewl on these boards to hate on WoW, but reality is, WoW is in no danger of failing anytime soon.

    On the original topic, I do not like the account wide achievment change, but I do like the looting change, and the war on theramore, I guess I will see if I enjoy that part when it comes out, but the sound of it is that it will be fun.

    Godz of War I call Thee

  • IsturiIsturi Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,509Member
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Isturi
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Isturi

    Yeah ??? Some how I do believe this is WoW last leg they have to stand on. Or bearly standing for that matter.

    Do you believe it is the overwhelming weight of their sub base or the overwehlming weight of the pile of money that is crushing their legs?

    Last leg.. my ass....if every other mmo could be 1/10th as lucky to have WoW's 'broken' legs.

    Remind me of this question when WoW goes F2P from lvl 1-60 or should I dare say 1-70 or 80? It is heading that way maybe not soon but it will happen mark my words.

    If that happens, you will have to show me proof that it was directly tied to WoW 'failing' rather than simply changing its business model to fit the modern mmo pricing atmosphere.

    With the what, 2 or 3 sub-based mmo's left, its hard to pin f2p on 'failure' anymore.

    One word: TOR or um wait guess that is three words? or is that 3 Abbreviations? lol idk

    image

  • menowhitemenowhite RotterdamPosts: 12Member

    Having played most mmo's (still have to try the secret world) I still think WoW might be the best mmo available, only the lack of new content the last 6 months is completely crazy. I will wait till mists of Pandaria before writing WoW off completely tho :)

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Isturi
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Isturi
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Isturi

    Yeah ??? Some how I do believe this is WoW last leg they have to stand on. Or bearly standing for that matter.

    Do you believe it is the overwhelming weight of their sub base or the overwehlming weight of the pile of money that is crushing their legs?

    Last leg.. my ass....if every other mmo could be 1/10th as lucky to have WoW's 'broken' legs.

    Remind me of this question when WoW goes F2P from lvl 1-60 or should I dare say 1-70 or 80? It is heading that way maybe not soon but it will happen mark my words.

    If that happens, you will have to show me proof that it was directly tied to WoW 'failing' rather than simply changing its business model to fit the modern mmo pricing atmosphere.

    With the what, 2 or 3 sub-based mmo's left, its hard to pin f2p on 'failure' anymore.

    One word: TOR or um wait guess that is three words? or is that 3 Abbreviations? lol idk

    Oh good you agree. TOR is a perfect example of how the sub model is outdated for the current oversaturation of mmo's on the market. I'm with you, TOR should have released f2p - but then again we may never have learned how outdated the sub model is.

    And what about GW2 - the wave of the future....releasing f2p with cash shop. Just think how different the gaming universe would be if SWTOR did the same.

    The industry learned something from TOR alright. When a market is oversaturated, even the smallest of annoyances are enough reason to stop paying for your game. There are so many others to choose from, why pay for this? Back in EQ days, we put up with much greater annoyances for longer periods because there was simply less to choose from in the market.

    And let's look at those 'failed' sub games. AoC, LoTRO, DDO, DCUO, EQ, EQ2. They switched to f2p and it would be inaccurate to call them 'failed' games. It was the sub model that failed. Those are all vibrant games with healthy populations and continued development. Which couldn't be said for them prior to f2p (with the exception of maybe EQ/EQ2). 

    The forumteers cried that the games were bad, horrid, a sign of a doomed industry and one of the seven horsemen of the apocolypse. Their dead servers and losses in subs and losing 50% of their subs on release were all proof the games were BAD!

     

    But now their fine.  They haven't changed, they are the same games - they have the same zones, and quests and combat systems and crafting as before. They PLAY the same as before. But now they have healthy populations.

    So is it that DDO failed? Is it that DCUO failed? Or is it that the sub model failed?  

    I'll put it this way. If my choices were TOR, EQ2 and let's say, TERA; I'd be subbed to ToR, and probably for a long time. Fortunately, I have enough better choices out there that I too unsubbed to TOR - because I have better choices.

    And get a clue. You can scream TOR failure all you want. But it is a pretty safe bet to say that 3X the number of people play it than whatever random mmo you are sub'ed too. So remember, more people still like TOR and are sub'd to it than most other 'healthy' sub based mmos. Which are what left now? WoW, Rift, Vangaurd (for like a couple more weeks), EVE, Tera ....what else? Other than WoW, ToR is STILL pulling more subs. Rift is just hoping for TOR's kind of 'failure' - and most toute Rift as a success story; it just doesn't make sense.

    The Sub model is dead. It is dead because of oversaturation in the market.

    The market is re-adjusting to current player patterns and that means F2P.

    So, you can develop your opinion based upon what you read in the forums, or you can look at the way business actually works.

    And I say this as a firmly and utterly disappointed person in everything that is SW: TOR. It is, imo, a horrible, horrible game. But there are somewhere around 1,000,000 people who disagree with me.

     

     

  • IsturiIsturi Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,509Member
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Isturi
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Isturi
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by Isturi

    Yeah ??? Some how I do believe this is WoW last leg they have to stand on. Or bearly standing for that matter.

    Do you believe it is the overwhelming weight of their sub base or the overwehlming weight of the pile of money that is crushing their legs?

    Last leg.. my ass....if every other mmo could be 1/10th as lucky to have WoW's 'broken' legs.

    Remind me of this question when WoW goes F2P from lvl 1-60 or should I dare say 1-70 or 80? It is heading that way maybe not soon but it will happen mark my words.

    If that happens, you will have to show me proof that it was directly tied to WoW 'failing' rather than simply changing its business model to fit the modern mmo pricing atmosphere.

    With the what, 2 or 3 sub-based mmo's left, its hard to pin f2p on 'failure' anymore.

    One word: TOR or um wait guess that is three words? or is that 3 Abbreviations? lol idk

     

    And what about GW2 - Huh? GW had this format for the longest time so er um maybe dont fix it since it not broke?

    The industry learned something from TOR alright. Yeah TY only reason Im not subbing right now is lack of cash I love TOR fantastic example.

    And let's look at those 'failed' sub games. People still play so called Falied games? What is the defention of fail anyways?

    The forumteers cried that the games were bad, horrid, a sign of a doomed industry and one of the seven horsemen of the apocolypse. Their dead servers and losses in subs and losing 50% of their subs on release were all proof the games were BAD! = Eastern games. Thank you good point.

     

    But now their fine.  They haven't changed, they are the same games - they have the same zones, and quests and combat systems and crafting as before. They PLAY the same as before. But now they have healthy populations. Wow ok if you enjoy grinding after 6 years and that how long I have played WoW I keeped on hanging on to that game after Lich xpac thinking it has got to get beter well guess what it did not. Not with Cata and defently not with Panda you can only sugar coat a plasic candy cane that is over 10 years old and it will never taste like it was real. Let me ask you this do you still play bord games or in general how many people compared to ten years ago will still sit down and play Monoply? 20 years ago? (everquest) etc well you get the point time a changing.

    So is it that DDO failed? Is it that DCUO failed? Or is it that the sub model failed?  IDK? did they im not a expert on games that fail but you seem to be.

    I love TOR like I stated lack of cash but hey what ever floats your boat. - because I have better choices.

    And get a clue. You can scream TOR failure all you want. Again what dose it mean to make a MMO fail? Again IDK maybe the fact that people want to play a game like WoW and not open their eyes and see it is the same game but it plays to the beat of a diffrent drummer. Player to npc collect me 10 rats and I will give you a upgrade armor and 10 pieces of silver. Oh Hey right on lets rince and repeat at higher lvls man woot!!! oh hey but WoW has a new xpac title it wont be the same or will it?

    The Sub model is dead. - Says Who? do you have expert reports that you can link? Sub model is perfect it is the ecomony that is dead hence force why would a person spend what use to be pocket change they now need it for gas to go to work.

    The market is re-adjusting to current player patterns and that means F2P. = Gold Trolls I can see the chat in general light up now on all MMO's

    So, you can develop your opinion based upon what you read in the forums, Huh? No I think there for I am.

    And I say this as a firmly and utterly disappointed person in everything that is SW: TOR. It is, imo, a horrible, horrible game. But there are somewhere around 1,000,000 people who disagree with me. - To each thier own. WoW is not horible It is just on one leg bearly. Why as a matter of Fact I do believe that Runescape is the MMO king I mean talking numbes that is what is it 200 million subs and oh wait it is F2P hey hmm wow go figure. Runescape  has been for ahwile now. So I am not even sure why you want to defend the 2end biggest MMO? Well cudos to you for sticking up and defending your game of choice.

     

     

    Color chat all that is in yellow is original thought from Zergo everything else is me. Yes I am having fun with this. image

    image

  • RedMachine72RedMachine72 Turney, MOPosts: 86Member

    Been playing WoW since Feb '06. BC was a great addition when it hit. Wrath was good. Then Blizz was "aquired" by Activision and it's been all downhill from there. In fact, Wrath might have been better if Activision had let them do it right. Cata, even though I had high hopes for it, sucked in terms of gameplay. Activision is basically pushing WoW down hard so that it can go FTP one day and have anyone grab it and faceroll the keyboard thru the whole thing.

     Look at the talent system. It was supposed to be expanded in Wrath insted of the crap they did with it, then with Cata, locked into a certain build, Pandumba, no talent sytem at all. No thinking, no trying, no finding the best build. They said they wanted to "eleminate" cookie cutter builds, and that's just what they gave us as far as the "talents" go.

    No more getting just that 1% higher DPS over the next guy cause you went with one talent over another. Instead you get to choose your power at every 15 levels.The only thing that's happening is it's being made more and more like a FTP than it ever was meant to be.

    BTW, a LOT of their numbers come from subs like mine, which will be dropped when the first of the year hits as I am playing others WAY more than WoW now. Can't wait for the 6 months to be up.

    And as far as Diablo III, it is a decent game. Now that they have fixed a lot of crap. Could have been a lot better if it had been released before Activision stepped on it.

    I really do still like WoW, I just can't get into it anymore with what they have done with it.

  • IsturiIsturi Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,509Member
    Originally posted by RedMachine72

    Been playing WoW since Feb '06. BC was a great addition when it hit. Wrath was good. Then Blizz was "aquired" by Activision and it's been all downhill from there. In fact, Wrath might have been better if Activision had let them do it right. Cata, even though I had high hopes for it, sucked in terms of gameplay. Activision is basically pushing WoW down hard so that it can go FTP one day and have anyone grab it and faceroll the keyboard thru the whole thing.

     Look at the talent system. It was supposed to be expanded in Wrath insted of the crap they did with it, then with Cata, locked into a certain build, Pandumba, no talent sytem at all. No thinking, no trying, no finding the best build. They said they wanted to "eleminate" cookie cutter builds, and that's just what they gave us as far as the "talents" go.

    No more getting just that 1% higher DPS over the next guy cause you went with one talent over another. Instead you get to choose your power at every 15 levels.The only thing that's happening is it's being made more and more like a FTP than it ever was meant to be.

    BTW, a LOT of their numbers come from subs like mine, which will be dropped when the first of the year hits as I am playing others WAY more than WoW now. Can't wait for the 6 months to be up.

    And as far as Diablo III, it is a decent game. Now that they have fixed a lot of crap. Could have been a lot better if it had been released before Activision stepped on it.

    I really do still like WoW, I just can't get into it anymore with what they have done with it.

    image

    image

  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon

     

    I've been playing since early Nov '04 (beta), taking breaks here and there between expansions. I liked all of the expansion content in different ways. I generally don't complain about what's given. I either enjoy it or don't play it. At this point, I'm happy to say I'm done with it. I got a lot of fun out of it but like RedMachine said, I just can't get in to it anymore. I logged in twice when a friend gave me a scroll of resurrection. Once to see if anyone I knew was online (nobody online, across two different guilds on two different servers), and the second time I just soloed some of the new Firelands content. I think I've had more fun doing my laundry. It's gotten about as stale as bread I threw away years ago, but luckily there are a lot of choices now in MMOs and single player games. I'm more than happy with the other choices available. image

     

    I hope WoW continues to entertain it's current fans, and that the rest of us find something equally entertaining in it's place. I think it's time for that ratio to balance out a bit now and hopefully we will see less of WoW's influence on the games we want to be different.

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Amory, MSPosts: 2,544Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BillMurphy

    I actually checked out the Pet Battle system last week, and well... it's kind of damn awesome.  Sure WoW isn't what it once was, but it's still a fun "game". That's in quotations, because that's really what it is more than a serious MMO. There was a time when I took WoW very seriously. Maybe it still is that way for some folks. But now, I see it as a fun world to step in and out of when I want to. Maybe that's just me.

    But that doesn't mean it's a bad game. It's just... different these days.

    Just what exactly do you consider a "serious" MMO?

  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,664Member Uncommon

    These patches used to be massive... This one doesn't even look like a major patch. Also why did they remove head enchants?

    They really should release a new Warcraft game. WoW has become way too dated and it has become the laughing stock of the gaming community.

     

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • ereyethirnereyethirn KaiapoiPosts: 79Member

    I am not a fan of wow im gonna say it right now but I'd just like to say to all those people saying its gonna die and that its unsuccssful due to how much hate it gets on places like this. You are blatently wrong. People play wow for 1 main reason, because other people play wow. Wow is really successful because back in the day it was actually good lotsa people started playing it, but now it still has the subscribers and so people still come to it because they honestly believe that its the best mmo because they look at the numbers. Okay now the thing about that is that when people leave wow and start lookng at other mmos they don't generally come back, that is why places like this are full of people hating them. So YES they have 10 million subscriber (im not sure how many of them are actively playing but they have 10 million people paying blizzard money every month) and NO its not gonna die anytime soon simply because its famous and no matter how much you'd like to think it will, no amount of hating on places like this will ever help wow die. Oh and to those people saying its not geting new subscribers 1. it doesn't need them and 2. people new to mmos go straight to wow because its famous so yes it does get new players.

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by dreamsofwar
    The mmorpg.com community is a tiny portion of the mmorpg playerbase as a whole. WoW still has 10 million subs, even if it lost half of that it would still be the most successful mmorpg on the market, so saying its on its last legs is extremely inaccurate.
    Absolutely. The resilience of WoW is beyond amazing, it has suffered only the tiniest of downticks despite going so long without new content. It would take a brave man to bet against it achieving a new record high for subscriptions when MoP releases.
  • WitherfieldWitherfield blacklandPosts: 4Member

    I'm worried about the fanatically opinionated people in here. Spitting bile and predicting the fall of a videogame with such ferocity isn't healthy for you. You might think stating you opinion about a videogame is very important, and that by doing so you somehow change the world for the better (you don't actually think exactly that, but the emotions are similar). However all you achieve is working yourself up over something that, if you just zoom out a little, does not matter at all.

     

    Every time you get worked up over stuff like this you cultivate a narrow mindset, making you more likely to continue doing it in the future. And if you get significantly emotional, your stress hormones (Cortisol & Norepinephrine) actually manifest physical discomfort which might even spur you to think that defending your views is a matter of your physical and mental well-being -- leading you into a thought-loop that can be destructive in the short term, and if cultivated enough; becomes a style of thinking you carry with you in life in general. (hence the term: Opinionated)

     

    Don't underestimate how negative emotions (however brief) affect your general mental well-being long after the encounter has ended.

     

    Now I do recognize the hypocrisy of me preaching about expressing one's opinions, and I don't expect my little rant to make much of a difference. I mostly wrote this for myself, as I needed to crystallize my views on pointless discussions and how I'll deal with them from now on (Zoom out your perspective, recognize the unproductive nature of the activity, and walk away -- do something that actually cultivates happiness and peace of mind instead, like Meditation or playing with your kid).

     

    If this helps anyone else too, that's cool.

     

    Take care!

     
  • RedMachine72RedMachine72 Turney, MOPosts: 86Member
    Originally posted by Witherfield

    I'm worried about the fanatically opinionated people in here. Spitting bile and predicting the fall of a videogame with such ferocity isn't healthy for you. You might think stating you opinion about a videogame is very important, and that by doing so you somehow change the world for the better (you don't actually think exactly that, but the emotions are similar). However all you achieve is working yourself up over something that, if you just zoom out a little, does not matter at all.

     

    Every time you get worked up over stuff like this you cultivate a narrow mindset, making you more likely to continue doing it in the future. And if you get significantly emotional, your stress hormones (Cortisol & Norepinephrine) actually manifest physical discomfort which might even spur you to think that defending your views is a matter of your physical and mental well-being -- leading you into a thought-loop that can be destructive in the short term, and if cultivated enough; becomes a style of thinking you carry with you in life in general. (hence the term: Opinionated)

     

    Don't underestimate how negative emotions (however brief) affect your general mental well-being long after the encounter has ended.

     

    Now I do recognize the hypocrisy of me preaching about expressing one's opinions, and I don't expect my little rant to make much of a difference. I mostly wrote this for myself, as I needed to crystallize my views on pointless discussions and how I'll deal with them from now on (Zoom out your perspective, recognize the unproductive nature of the activity, and walk away -- do something that actually cultivates happiness and peace of mind instead, like Meditation or playing with your kid).

     

    If this helps anyone else too, that's cool.

     

    Take care!

     

    Just expressing my opinion, Hey Freud, your moms that way ---------> .

    Yes, these games are entertainment and some people take their entertainment seriously. For some that have conditions, it is their only outlet. It's called Agoraphobia and sometimes the only way they can get out is "thru" the game. And when that game is screwed up and people can't play anymore the way they used to it kinda messes with their head.
     I personally do not have this condition, I have known people with it and they do need an outlet or they are basically shutins unless they have a visitor and even then they sometimes have problems with that depending on how severe their condition is.
     
    And yes, people have died from playing games and not taking care of themselves. I personally think that is going WAY to far with it. That is an addiction, just like drugs and overdosing. They needed help that they never got. Those cases are fewer and farther between than drugs, and yet people think it's worse than drugs and that games need more regulation than drugs.
     The case of the person being stabbed over an argument about WoW. The perp had mental issues if you ask me, cause no person that is sane would have done something like that. Again these cases of neglect and violence are VERY rare compared to the real problems of society.
     
     
     
  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Isturi

     

    And what about GW2 - Huh? GW had this format for the longest time so er um maybe dont fix it since it not broke?

    And TOR's sub model is in fact broke, so shouldn't they fix it? Like maybe choosing a pricing model that isn't broke? Let's take your example of an unbroken system - they should go f2p, like GW2.

    You missed the point. GW/GW2 imo, are the innovators who first saw the potential in a subless game. My point is GW was ahead of the curve. And to further, you are admitting that GW/GW2 is a smart choice. Ergo my original point - if ToR changes to f2p it is a not sign of failure. But with GW2 releasing as a f2p it shows smart business decisions. Those two ideas don't jive. Is f2p a smart choice or not? If it is smart, it is not necessarily a sign of failure. It is more logical to assume that TOR's decision to release as a sub was the stupid thing, not finally realizing f2p is a smart choice. You can't have it both ways. If F2P is smart for GW2, than it is smart for any mmo in this climate.

    The industry learned something from TOR alright. Yeah TY only reason Im not subbing right now is lack of cash I love TOR fantastic example.

    This doesn't make sense and doesn't address my point at all.

    And let's look at those 'failed' sub games. People still play so called Falied games? What is the defention of fail anyways?

    This is the entire argument. You define fail as a sub game going f2p. I counter that it isn't. So it isn't my definition at the center of this, it is yours. You say TOR going f2p defines failure. I say it doesn't. What is my definition of failure? A game shutting its servers down, not changing its pricing model.

    And again, your implied point was my express point which makes me think you aren't really reading or understanding what I was saying. The list of games I gave as 'fail' are the list that are generally called 'fail' games in the forums. And, I was making the counterpoint that this was internet armchair philosophy. In actuality those games were not 'fail' despite the common misconception, but in fact, simply had 'failed' pricing models, because no one is daily going to AoC forums anymore to decry 'failed' game - because it is healthy and has been since it went f2p.

    My entire point was that you lumped TOR in with these games for the exact same reasons and I was showing that you in fact, that none of the games condemned with the same evidence actually turned out to be failures, so how can you predict TOR is one.

    It is very simple, if a game is unhealthy with a sub and healthy without one, the game isn't a failure, the pricing model is. And therefore, if TOR does the same thing that all these other games which were called fail because of their sub loss, than it will be the same, it will prove TOR released with a 'failed' pricing model.

    The forumteers cried that the games were bad, horrid, a sign of a doomed industry and one of the seven horsemen of the apocolypse. Their dead servers and losses in subs and losing 50% of their subs on release were all proof the games were BAD! = Eastern games. Thank you good point.

    AoC, WAR, DDO, LoTRO and DCUO were eastern games? I mean really, what are you talking about? Are you drunk right now? Are you even reading my words?

     

    But now their fine.  They haven't changed, they are the same games - they have the same zones, and quests and combat systems and crafting as before. They PLAY the same as before. But now they have healthy populations. Wow ok if you enjoy grinding after 6 years and that how long I have played WoW I keeped on hanging on to that game after Lich xpac thinking it has got to get beter well guess what it did not. Not with Cata and defently not with Panda you can only sugar coat a plasic candy cane that is over 10 years old and it will never taste like it was real. Let me ask you this do you still play bord games or in general how many people compared to ten years ago will still sit down and play Monoply? 20 years ago? (everquest) etc well you get the point time a changing.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. How did you...well I'm starting to give up. I mean this is truly ....wow.

    So is it that DDO failed? Is it that DCUO failed? Or is it that the sub model failed?  IDK? did they im not a expert on games that fail but you seem to be.

    But that is your entire claim. You know that TOR switching to F2P means it is a failure. One more time, it is not my definition of failure I'm arguing. It is yours. So if you are so humble, and admittedly NOT an expert, why can't you be open to the idea that switching from sub to f2p may actually be a sign of a failed pricing model rather than a sign of a bad game?

    I mean, really, you are accusing me of being self-righteous about failures, and the only evidence you have given for what constitutes a failed game has been proven wrong again and again. DCUO was considered a failure because it lost subs. It went f2p and is healthy. That plus, AoC, DDO, EQ, EQ2, all proved the same thing. Your point has been proven incorrect time and time again.

    Seeing sub games considered failure rebound to healthy populations upon a pricing model change does not make me an expert. It simply makes me observant.

     

    I love TOR like I stated lack of cash but hey what ever floats your boat. - because I have better choices.

    And get a clue. You can scream TOR failure all you want. Again what dose it mean to make a MMO fail? Again IDK maybe the fact that people want to play a game like WoW and not open their eyes and see it is the same game but it plays to the beat of a diffrent drummer. Player to npc collect me 10 rats and I will give you a upgrade armor and 10 pieces of silver. Oh Hey right on lets rince and repeat at higher lvls man woot!!! oh hey but WoW has a new xpac title it wont be the same or will it?

    Uh, What? Again you seem to be responding to a different thread.

    The Sub model is dead. - Says Who? do you have expert reports that you can link? Sub model is perfect it is the ecomony that is dead hence force why would a person spend what use to be pocket change they now need it for gas to go to work.

    Says me. It is my opinion. Based on my observations of multiple unhealthy sub games becoming healthy after going f2p.

    But you want a link. Here's a columnist from this site. Pretty much read anything he writes and he will back it up with examples from the industry. Here is your expert.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/features.cfm/view/columns/show/1_The-Free-Zone

    But if that isn't enough, just google it for god's sake, if you can't see an industry shift to f2p on your own, heaven help you.

    So, this site supports columnists who I agree with. The site you are a member of has hired people to tell you about it. So....where is my link? where's my expert? Maybe you should actually pay attention to this site from time to time.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    The market is re-adjusting to current player patterns and that means F2P. = Gold Trolls I can see the chat in general light up now on all MMO's

    Did I ever say it was good that the sub model is dead?

    So, you can develop your opinion based upon what you read in the forums, Huh? No I think there for I am.

    Ok...... so that Descartes quote proves you 'exist'.......but I was talking about how you form opinions.......

    And I say this as a firmly and utterly disappointed person in everything that is SW: TOR. It is, imo, a horrible, horrible game. But there are somewhere around 1,000,000 people who disagree with me. - To each thier own. WoW is not horible It is just on one leg bearly.

    What? Every mmo on the planet would switch their 2 good legs for that one Blizzard has that is lame. Really? That is just ludicrous......

    And would be remiss of me to say your point has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

    Why as a matter of Fact I do believe that Runescape is the MMO king I mean talking numbes that is what is it 200 million subs and oh wait it is F2P hey hmm wow go figure. Runescape  has been for ahwile now. So I am not even sure why you want to defend the 2end biggest MMO? Well cudos to you for sticking up and defending your game of choice.

    What in God's name are you talking about? How in the world does runescape having 200m subs and a f2p model prove that the sub model is alive and well? Do you even see yourself countering your own points? It's hard to imagine because your statement doesn't seem like you even read mine.

    If english is your second language, I apologize, I don't think you are understanding me clearly. If not, and English is your primary language, than I am still very sorry - I'm starting to feel like I'm actually trying to reason with a crazy homeless person ranting on the corner, because what you took away from my post seems so entirely disjointed and unconnected to my post.

    I am really not trying to bait a negative response from you, so don't worry, if your reply to this doesn't make more sense, I just won't bother to continue. But I really think you need to re-read my original post, but here it is in bullet form:

    - Sub models have been failing in the market for several years.

    -Many sub model games rebounded when they went f2p.

    -This indicates that the games themselves weren't bad, but rather their pricing model was.

    -If TOR goes f2p, and it rebounds, it will be a sign that the sub model was the problem rather than the game

     

     

     

    Color chat all that is in yellow is original thought from Zergo everything else is me. Yes I am having fun with this. image

    You do seem to be having fun at least........and I would be lying if I didn't say that was one of the more entertaining responses I've ever had.

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