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I finally understand the Pay to Win argument

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  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch smithville ON, ONPosts: 488Member

    1 - 15: 10 silver

    15 - 30: 1 gold

     

    It increases.

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member

    I'm confuced, is this about item shop or someone who is rich ingame?image

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • DakirnDakirn Kansas City, MOPosts: 374Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Stx11
    Originally posted by Dakirn

    What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

     

    And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

     

    If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

     

    I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

    Thanks for showing you don't know much about the game!

    All having Gold does is allow someone to buy Blueprints. It does nothing for Supply. It does nothing to allow you to build said Blueprints.

    And all those Siege Engines that the guy is throwing money at early on? Wiped after no more than 24 hours early after release (as that is their initial time for resetting WvW for more balanced matchups to specifically help combat this and similar problems during Launch) and no more than 2 weeks even later on.

    In a game that auto-levels you to 80 in WvW and provides EVERYTHING for free fully maxed-out in sPvP how are those potions "pay to win?" People are even down-leveled to match early content so being a higher level than everybody else doesn't really provide any "advantage" and definitely not any sustainable ones.

    I have no issue with people not liking the game. Sheer stupidity or misrepresentation of how the game works? Prepare to be flamed...

    You realize that there is an entire PvE part of the game too, right?  Like.. 79 levels worth?  It's unbalancing there.

     

    Whether you care about PvE or not that is where a majority of people will be making the most money to buy those Siege Weapons if they don't use the Gem exchange.  Someone who makes a vast majority more in money over you will be purchasing things easier and quicker.

     

    Obviously if he was dropping Siege items like candy Blueprints and Supplies weren't an issue.  No, I don't know how to make them but it doesn't negate the fact that gold is used in the process too.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dageeza

    As an avid fan of this game i also severely disagree with anet on charging repairs in PvP especially at low levels as it can break a lowbies financial back and be frustrating..

    It also makes it somewhat of a mistruth that you can level up to 80 in pvp alone from lvl 1..

    Anet seriously needs to rethink this one..

    Once a toon is over lvl 20 or so it doesnt really matter because you make more than enough silvers to cover costs but until then it can be rough on a pvp enthusiast that doesnt want to do PvE....

    As I said earlier, the real problem is that you don´t earn enough money in PvP, particularly the first week you play.

    Easily fixed as long as you people report it as good beta testers should.

    It is just another balancing issue, games in betas have tons of different balancing issues.

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by Naevius

    Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

    Lawl... how the fanbois will defend there precious. No pay to win is when items are signifacantly easier to obtain or do through the cash shop. This is how  its been since the beginning, you can't twist definitions just to fit your game sorry.

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • ValentinaValentina Los Angeles, CAPosts: 1,675Member Uncommon

    They really shouldn't charge for PvP repairs, not here for that tbh.

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by hikaru77

    People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

    well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

    The difference there is GW2 is allowing you to do it legit, where are other games its against the TOS and Rules. So no you can't put GW2 in the same category as those. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • dageezadageeza london, KYPosts: 578Member

    GW2 is by my definition of an mmo is one of the best raw vanilla releases of all time..

    However not everyone is going to like it for various reasons for them i wish em luck at finding that magic game..

     

    Playing GW2..

  • Stx11Stx11 West Hills, CAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by Dakirn

    In a game that auto-levels you to 80 in WvW and provides EVERYTHING for free fully maxed-out in sPvP how are those potions "pay to win?" People are even down-leveled to match early content so being a higher level than everybody else doesn't really provide any "advantage" and definitely not any sustainable ones.

    I have no issue with people not liking the game. Sheer stupidity or misrepresentation of how the game works? Prepare to be flamed...

    You realize that there is an entire PvE part of the game too, right?  Like.. 79 levels worth?  It's unbalancing there.

     

    Whether you care about PvE or not that is where a majority of people will be making the most money to buy those Siege Weapons if they don't use the Gem exchange.  Someone who makes a vast majority more in money over you will be purchasing things easier and quicker.

     

    Obviously if he was dropping Siege items like candy Blueprints and Supplies weren't an issue.  No, I don't know how to make them but it doesn't negate the fact that gold is used in the process too.

    First point which you haven't answered - HOW IS IT AN ADVANTAGE IN COOPERATIVE PVE??? How is it "unbalancing" like you said? I can craft excellent gear quite easily as I level up with Stats that are equal to or better than drops. I can participate in Dynamic Events and earn all the Karma I need for quality gear. I am not IN ANY WAY dependent on drops in this game for quality gear.

    Second point your last sentence sums things up perfectly - you don't know how the game works but you are proclaiming "PAY TO WIN11!!1!!" Keeps and Depots have limited Supply and while there were enough people to build the Blueprints he initially dropped it is not sustainable. If the other side knows at all what they are doing Supply will be cut off and their own Siege Weapons will be brought to bear.

    If you are going to criticize something based on the mechanics LEARN those mechanics before you do so. 

  • BrizlynBrizlyn Ladera Ranch, CAPosts: 70Member Uncommon
    I don't think this game can be considered pay to win, but I like to call it pay to trade. Gold doesn't magically appear for people with gems willing to buy. Gold is earned in game and then may be sold / traded by players to other players for gems. It is a transfer of wealth from player to player but nothing is magically introduced to the economy in that if the supply of in game earned gold is exhausted then no one can buy gold with gems until more gold is earned / comes to market.

    I this is incorrect please let me know, this is how I understood it to work.

    -briz
  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Elftown, MEPosts: 489Member
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Naevius

    Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

    Lawl... how the fanbois will defend there precious. No pay to win is when items are signifacantly easier to obtain or do through the cash shop. This is how  its been since the beginning, you can't twist definitions just to fit your game sorry.

    No. Pay to win is when the shop has gear that's significantly better than anything obtainable in game.

    Using an item shop to speed up a process (such as gain coins) puts someone willing to spend the cash on par with someone willing to spend the time.

    If there were siege weapons only obtainable in the shop and were superior to anything earned by time; then sure.

    This isn't Pay to Win, because it wasn't clear if the advantages of the cash clearly won. Just seemed to put them on par with players not spending the cash. 

    So go LAWL yerself.

    a yo ho ho

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by hikaru77

    People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

    well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

    The difference there is GW2 is allowing you to do it legit, where are other games its against the TOS and Rules. So no you can't put GW2 in the same category as those. 

    Gaia answered this better below

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Stx11Stx11 West Hills, CAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Naevius

    Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

    Lawl... how the fanbois will defend there precious. No pay to win is when items are signifacantly easier to obtain or do through the cash shop. This is how  its been since the beginning, you can't twist definitions just to fit your game sorry.

    Sorry but what is "signifacantly easier" through the Cash Shop in GW2?

    It's not gear.

    It's not buffs or advantage of any kind in Structured PvP.

    It doesn't grant Supply in WvW.

    So other than you hating on the CS - where is this supposed advantage coming from?

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,804Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by hikaru77

    People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

    well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

    The difference there is GW2 is allowing you to do it legit, where are other games its against the TOS and Rules. So no you can't put GW2 in the same category as those. 

    Every time someone spends real money to get in game gold, someone else gets gems to improve its game experience.

    That is the difference.

    In other games gold farms contribute nothing to the game community-

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also people need to understand that it goes like this:

    X Gold + X Supply = X Siege engine.

    That means that if I have 50000000000000 gold but the game only has 1000 supply there is a bottleneck.

    1000 Gold + 1000 Supply = 1000 siege engines

    Enter "P2W real money":

    5000000000000000000000 Gold + 1000 Supply = 1000 engines.

    Nothing changed.

    There is a limiting reagent that is only controlled by the game and player skills.

     

     

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch smithville ON, ONPosts: 488Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    I'm confuced, is this about item shop or someone who is rich ingame?image

    I think he's complaining about repair costs because they can rack up quick in WvWvW.

  • Poison_AdelePoison_Adele Seattle, WAPosts: 287Member
    1. There's plenty of money-making opportunities in WvW, you need to stop and actually mine/gather in order to get them.
    2. Money does absolutely nothing without Supply, which requires a good team and strategy to obtain.
    3. The game was designed so that teams could mine/gather the money they needed to get siege equipment.
    All of those upgrades? Need supply to happen. The only reason they were possible was because prior to this guy's arrival, your team had already captured a lot of castles and had built up the supply needed to support such things.

    image

  • heatzzheatzz SingaporePosts: 6Member

    Watch this guys enuff said:

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,804Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Vunak23
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by hikaru77

    People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

    well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

    The difference there is GW2 is allowing you to do it legit, where are other games its against the TOS and Rules. So no you can't put GW2 in the same category as those. 

    how it effects the game is the same whether its legit or not

    It isn't the same - gold sellers ruin the game with bots and inflation from people that only want money from the game.

    In GW2 we have an exchange of currencies "In game gold (in game time) <--------> Gems (time spent in work)" that gives something to players interested in the game.

    Additionally the games has in-game built mechanisms like supply, max level gear for everyone in pvp, or downleveling and karma for PvE that limits the problems

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    how it effects the game is the same whether its legit or not

    It isn't the same - gold sellers ruin the game with bots and inflation from people that only want money from the game.

    In GW2 we have an exchange of currencies "In game gold (in game time) <--------> Gems (time spent in work)" that gives something to players interested in the game.

    Additionally the games has in-game built mechanisms like supply that limits the problems.

     

    yea I edited that post already heh

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by heatzz

    Watch this guys enuff said:

    nice video

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • hikaru77hikaru77 buenos airesPosts: 1,035Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    [mod edit]

     

     

    Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2. back to the Pay to win topic, if you take a look at the shop you´ll find ¨50% boost¨ for everything even a ¨50% epic drop boost¨, thats pay to win. 

  • Br3akingDawnBr3akingDawn a City, CAPosts: 1,357Member Uncommon

    simply, you are not ready.

    image

  • Stx11Stx11 West Hills, CAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by hikaru77 

    Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2. back to the Pay to win topic, if you take a look at the shop you´ll find ¨50% boost¨ for everything even a ¨50% epic drop boost¨, thats pay to win. 

    It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily craft level appropriate gear with stats tailored to my build and playstyle equal to or better than anything that drops.

    It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily acquire enough Karma to pick up gear with great stats from vendors.

    It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where in Structured PvP ALL max level Traits, Skills, and Gear is unlocked and available.

    It's fine for you to hate the game/CS - just don't lie about how the game works.

  • sapheroithsapheroith SydneyPosts: 116Member
    Originally posted by Stx11
    Originally posted by hikaru77 

    Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2. back to the Pay to win topic, if you take a look at the shop you´ll find ¨50% boost¨ for everything even a ¨50% epic drop boost¨, thats pay to win. 

    It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily craft level appropriate gear with stats tailored to my build and playstyle equal to or better than anything that drops.

    It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily acquire enough Karma to pick up gear with great stats from vendors.

    It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where in Structured PvP ALL max level Traits, Skills, and Gear is unlocked and available.

    It's fine for you to hate the game/CS - just don't lie about how the game works.

    He is just trolling. Dont bother answer.

    WOW: The Most Well Known Non-Free Non-Browser Client-Based 3D Fantasy MMORPG In Some Parts of the World.

  • lotapartylotaparty taxila canttPosts: 514Member
    Originally posted by Shroom_Mage

     


    Originally posted by Dalgor
    Firstly you really need to make your post say gold pay to win, cause people are going to think this has to do with RL cash pay to win, which is doesnt.

     

    If people have progressed further and accumulated more gold in game, naturally they are going to have a ass ton of more resources to draw from then you, its the penalty for joining at a low level, the flip side is you can still pvp, have fun, gain xp, and level in the pvp zones, but you are at a disadvantage, you should have expected it.

    All I hear is an awesome story where a small army was able to hold their own or prevail over a larger army because of better resources, sounds fair to me.


     

    Did you miss the part where you can buy gold with gems? It's obvious the guy with all that gold didn't farm hundreds of it in a couple hours unless he found some sort of exploit.

     

     

    i am getting a feeling this game will be ruined just like diablo 3 type of thingy . if it survives i will buy the game after seeing the results of 6 months

     

    image

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