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Originally posted by SpottyGekko UO was unique, and the likes of it will probably never be seen again. Pre-NGE SWG was probably the only mainstream MMO that came vaguely close to UO in terms of freedom and and player creativity. If UO launched today as a fully 3-D MMO with the unrestricted pre-Trammel ruleset, it would probably be instantly invaded by 10,000 members of some PK community that would kill everything that moves 24/7 until the game closed down after 3 months, lol
The modern PvP open world PvP culture is a self consuming locost swarm that kills the thing it claims to love, and then projects the blame on to 'carebears'.
Originally posted by Kyleran Truth is, I've never understood why not one single developer ever thought creating good virtual world outside of the UO/SWG teams was a pretty good idea. I guess they need to try and swing for the fence instead of trying for a solid double. I missed out on these two titles in their hey day and feel I really missed out on something unique (same with AC)
Because it is not as easy as it seems?
As a niche market target, corners would have to be cut somewhere.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Originally posted by Vesavius Originally posted by SpottyGekko UO was unique, and the likes of it will probably never be seen again. Pre-NGE SWG was probably the only mainstream MMO that came vaguely close to UO in terms of freedom and and player creativity. If UO launched today as a fully 3-D MMO with the unrestricted pre-Trammel ruleset, it would probably be instantly invaded by 10,000 members of some PK community that would kill everything that moves 24/7 until the game closed down after 3 months, lol
hm.... it's possible.
I see a lot of self proclaimed pvp'ers wanting "ffa sandbox" but are they even interested in the "sandbox" part or do they just want unrestricted pvp?
Dont' get me wrong, I liked many things about ffa pvp in Lineage 2.
But, there were deterrents to always being a red and in some ways it was a culture unto itself.
Originally posted by Arglebargle Originally posted by Kyleran Truth is, I've never understood why not one single developer ever thought creating good virtual world outside of the UO/SWG teams was a pretty good idea. I guess they need to try and swing for the fence instead of trying for a solid double. I missed out on these two titles in their hey day and feel I really missed out on something unique (same with AC)
Could a niche market game (which might appeal to 500K or more) really do any worse than some of the AAA titles released today?
It's a risk I'll grant you, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™ "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Interesting "There has yet to be a virtual world that even comes close to the number of things you can do in Ultima Online." Is this statement true or false? Could you provide examples of MMORPGs and "things you can do" in these games that "come close" to Ultima Online?
How about a list of things you are talking about. I am sure there are people that have played games that might contain what you're looking for that might not have played UO.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Vesavius Originally posted by SpottyGekko
I think most are interested in both aspects tbh.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Arglebargle Originally posted by Kyleran
Ha! 500k is a huge sucess, imo -- unless you spent 200mil on the project. One to two million subs are pretty much the present high water marks. Even WoW gets its vaunted numbers outside the western market.
Properly figuring scale for cost of production to subscribers maintained does seem to be a problem with the big boys. I think some companies are nosing around the idea of open worlds, but, again, there are problems that go with it. I agree it should be considered, being the big fish in a small pond can be very successful. And certainly better than a dead fish in a big pond....
Originally posted by Interesting Example of things you can/could do in EVE and Star Wars Galaxies that come close to Ultima Online?
as an eve player on and off (mostly on) since 2007 i can speak with good authority tht there are a ton of ways to pass your time in eve and a bazillion niches for your character to fill. I cannot comment on UO and the difference between them simply because i never played UO.
in eve you can
run PVE missions for a faction
run production on a small or grand scale (production is always needed because in eve your stuff has the nasty habit of blowing up)
run goods in your freighter for others, sometimes through dangerous space (space trucker! i always wanted to do that in eve)
run home defense for a 0.0 corp in nullsec (living off the land in downtime)
run capital ship production which requires coordinating dozens of tradeskillers and collectors as well as amassing a small fortune)
fly capitals for a 0.0 corp
fly small gang PVPin 0.0 or lowsec roams
fly solo pvp as an ebil piwate or goodie 2shooz piwat hunter
fly for your race in faction warfare
research t2 blueprints out of t1
live in a wormhole with a t3 building corp
do large scale mining in high sec or in null sec
go to the tradehub of your choice and run your financial scam of choice
tutor others in eve university or in agony unleashed or in TGRADS
amass loads of cash by buying from one area and traveling it to the other and selling it there at a hgher price
be a spy for your alliance by joining another one and reporting their seekrit strategies back to your acutal one (this one brought to you by my serbian heroes 4life, Circle-of-two)
join a NRDS corp who lives in the 0.0 equivalent of a hippy commune
do exploration for complexes and anomalies to get expensive faction loot
run logistics, blackops, or another specialized pvp role other than just shooting stuff
manage a POS or a group of POS!
literally build a space station that will exist forever in the game (in 0.0, called an outpost and my fondest moment in eve when my alliance at the time put one up!)
and i bet other eve players will add stuff i missed.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, DFUW
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Quite a number of games around even (Haven & Hearth, Xsyon, Wurm, StarQuest, Eve, Perpetuum) that come close enough, and I've prolly forgotten some.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Some things I didn't see mentioned yet, and then some comments....
Once upon a time....
Originally posted by dave6660 My corp used to play football in Eve Online with a can and cruisers with tractor beams and ewar. We would setup containers as goal lines on both sides. Could you do that in UO?
How did you "tackle" a ball carrier and steal the can?
Where's the any key?
There are worlds that predate UO with comparable numbers of options.
Of course, they're all MUDs, but they fit under the virtual world heading nontheless.
Playing: FFXIV, EVE
Shadowbane was pretty close imo (played both).
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas Originally posted by dave6660 My corp used to play football in Eve Online with a can and cruisers with tractor beams and ewar. We would setup containers as goal lines on both sides. Could you do that in UO?
In UO some players came up with a game called "Bagball". They took a colored bag (another thing you could do in UO was "dye" many items to a wide range of colors, including regular clothing), and put so much weight in it that a player couldn't put it in their inventory. But you could pick it up "here" and drop it "there" to move it down the field. The object was to move it into the goal, and the basic match involved who could pick it up first to move it in their direction. UO eventually added a new item that looked like a giant socker ball and acted like a containor, and even added a "Bagball Field" stadium to the game.
I find this statement factual.
I mean there are a few close ones. Second Life, but it's not really a game. Some of the non-pvp sandboxes like A Tale in the Desert want to live up to UO's example, but there's no PVP and therefore no conquest.
Ryzom sorta close. I think it's been the most inspired by UO newer type game to come along.
I think the closest themepark-ish title was UO. Honestly there was a lot to that game, but it started a lot of the modern themepark features so it's freedom wasn't exactly in the same vein as UO.
We need UO2.
a yo ho ho
Originally posted by ahumata Not sure why the list still hasnt been provided. Then again if it had, a lot of people who say "Eve, Perpetuum, this, that" would probably realized they're wrong. I had an active account from 98 to 2008, didnt play much after AoS but still did, so I have no idea what they put in since 2008. More stuff no doubt: I'm putting this UO list so that people can compare against it and soon find out how short they come on options offered by those other games since UO. In UO, besides killing stuff you could: - Stealth around picking locked chests in dungeons. Ninja raiding, doing certain anomoly sites - Herd, Tame, train and sell pets Build and sell drones + fighters - Go fishing, fish up rares and lost treasure (the bigger stuff involved fighting) Exploration, hacking/archaeology - Grow plants Sounds like a resource extraction system, Eve has 9 of them. - Build, decorate and sell houses. That includes creating new decoration elements through optical illusion, which was a UO art in itself. Build space stations, sell them if you feel like it. - Snoop people's backpacks and steal their stuff if you felt so inclined Blow people up and loot their wrecks - Hunt for rares, trade them Hunt officer mods in complexes, trade them - Harvest all kinds of resources (obviously) As mentioned above, Eve has 9 different resource extraction methods: mining ice, mining asteroids, harvesting gas, moon mining through a POS, salvaging, hacking, archaeology, planetary interaction and R&D agents - Cook, tinker, make potions, furniture, clothes you name it, whether it was for use, trade or vanity. Crafting is unrivaled at this point. 99% of the items a player can have in EVE that aren't skillbooks or blueprint originals are crafted or sourced by players. Eve has over 9000 different items in it. - Get on your boat, sail around and explore Get in a ship, fly around and explore (and die if you're not careful) - Do a lot of social stuff that was in some way or other supported by game mechanics and not just total "let's pretend" One word: Nullsec - Move heavy objects around so to create improvised structures Deploy a set of inventory containers in open space to spell out sentences, rearrange the structures of a POS to make it look like a giant dick with balls...the list goes on - Craft and enchant and otherwise modify (color, name) magical items with various properties to your liking Ship fitting in Eve, you could completely alter the capabilities and role of a ship by simply tweaking a couple of modules. - Salvage and scavenge stuff from anywhere. Pick magical reagents from the wild, smelt or otherwise unmake items, etc. This is resource extraction and crafting, you've already mentioned it above. - Build libraries and rune libraries (allows players to travel around the world from a central location) Set up a jump-bridge network in nullsec - Run a shop Put buy and sell orders on the marketplace - Scam people in a hundred ways People have stolen the equivalent of tens of thousands of USD from other players through everything from betrayal to spying to ponzi schemes in Eve - Trap and lock boxes and untrap and unlock them, which gave a lot of opportunities for stunts and antics Leave something juicy in a can in front of a noob station, wait for someone to grab it and fry their ass since you get kill rights on them for 15 minutes. - Make monsters fight for you so you wouldnt have to do it yourself (I know, technically it's fighting) Okay, this one I give, Eve has no way of swapping the loyalty of an NPC enemy. Buying the allegiance of another player corporation, on the other hand...lots of players act as mercenaries for hire. I'm forgetting a lot of stuff, not to mention the creative things people would always end up doing with the game mechanics that were clearly not intended in the first place and gave the game that sense of freedom. Good luck matching that to any game released since.
Direct comparisons with Eve listed in green above. So, except for perhaps the last one UO doesn't win out against Eve outright.
As much as Eve is really a pretty great game in its own right, claiming that it stands comparison with UO in terms of variations in activities, playstyles, and lifestyles within the game is in fact delusional. There mere fact that you're limited to flying a ship for all interactions in the game constrains everything to a rather narrow layout. Can you build your house and decorate it? Can you change clothes and dye your hair to impersonate another guy or an NPC as you walk around town? Can you polymorph into a monster? Can you tame creatures and sell them to other players? The list goes on. Eve falls short. Don't get me wrong I praise Eve, but come on, don't compare an army knife with a swiss tool.
Only game I've played that had anything on UO when it came to that was SWG, and I'm pretty sure that even SWG doesn't fully match.
I wouldn't count 2nd Life in because as interesting as 2nd Life can be, it's more a total sandbox than a sandbox game. You can do a lot of stuff in it, including and especially building things for you or other players to do if they're not there. But it's pretty clear cut that the "game design" aspect didn't really get a lot of attention. In that sense, 2nd Life is in its own genre.
I also don't understand people who talk about bringing back a game like UO today and having it fail because of griefers and PKs. It's been 15 years since UO came out, it's obvious that if a game like that would be to be remade today, it wouldn't be remade 100% true-to-form, a lot would be improved, adapted and modified. May I remind you that UO was the first game of its kind, that there was no template or rules to follow and that a lot of it was just improvisation and adaptation?
What we should be looking forward is not that someone brings UO back in full purity (I doubt even I would manage to play that for long), but rather that someone brings back the same sort of fully immersive, player-driven, lifestyle-based gameplay. It's definitely doable, but that requires to be inventive and to take a few risks... or for the market to wear out the main formulae and evolve towards that.
While something could happen regarding the first option, I wouldn't expect anything regarding the second for a few more years.
Originally posted by ahumata As much as Eve is really a pretty great game in its own right, claiming that it stands comparison with UO in terms of variations in activities, playstyles, and lifestyles within the game is in fact delusional.
I'm going to agree with this. Honestly EVE is a massive game in it's own right. I mean it's reputation as a graph paper needed game says a lot about that
There just isn't the variety in EVE of things to do as UO. I mean UO had its limitations, but searching for purple hair dye was a complicated procedure in it's own right. Unless you used eBay.
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas Etc
Nice attempt, but let me correct the shot. Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Eve at all costs, Eve is a great game. Nor am I trying to shut you up or anything such, I hope I wont come across that way. But what made UO most special is that all of those game mechanics supported lifestyles, it was not just "stuff you can do", it was a million different ways you can do a million different things (clearly, my numbers here are a slight bit inflated"). That's why while probably being king in its own land, Eve will never fully cut it to us UO players the way that UO did. Eve is market, politics, crime, war. UO was society.
Lets look at the list
Stealth/Anomaly, can work.
Pets/Drones, doesn't work. Wide variety of pets that you had to go tame in the wild wherever they lived, bring back, train and sell. Bit more complex than a crafting/trade system of drones (and drones in Eve are quite cool).
Fishing/Archaeology, might work
Grow plants/Resource extraction, doesnt work. I would have mentioned mining, skinning, wood chopping and what have you. Plants were a management minigame that could produce goods (decoration) or resources (various uses). There too, it involved getting seeds, making soil, using items and so on to go from an empty pot to a full plant.
Housing/Space stations, doesnt work. Houses you could place, build wall portion by wall portion in many different styles and shapes, wander around in, decorate, sell, fail to refresh and see collapse, burgle, etc. Eve might have something on that when their Walk In Stations system goes anywhere and has a couple of years in existence possibly, but it's not realistic to assume it'll ever go anywhere close to that.
Snoop-Steal/Blow people up, doesn't work. I didn't talk about PK'ing, I talked about stealth mechanics. The entire idea of theft was discretion, stealing stuff and people not even noticing it.
Rare Hunting/Off Mods in Complexes, not sure. Can you do that in Eve without having to fight for one second? I assume not. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Harvesting, it's not so much about how many methods there are, it's about what gameplay is involved in it. Otherwise I could just bring out UO's list of craft skills and blow up any challenger right there. Eve does have PI though and UO didn't have anything like that. Let's call that one quits for the sake of simplicity although you can guess what I think of it all.
Craft, Well, if you wanna go there, Eve might have 9000 different items in it but they're mostly an icon and some info. UO definitely challenges that number without a sweat, and those items were actually movable, placeable or usable in some way (or several). I'd say Eve has to sit that one out. By far. Want a tree? Have a tree. Want a potion? A fire poker? A glass? A carpet? A sword? A container? A grass patch? Some wool? A bunch of stones? Some gold ore? Some bread? A ship model? A curtain? You name it. Wanna put them all in different places and at different heights in your house? Wanna dye them? Go right ahead.
Sailing vs Flying. Nah. That's missing the point. Flying a ship in Eve isn't a choice, it's not an alternate interaction mechanism, it's default. It's as if I put "walking around" as a highlight in any mmo. And even then, it's as if I came up and said that in UO you could ride a dozen different types of mounts (possibly more) each with different properties. In the end it's still riding stuff. Who cares. You did have variety in travel modes though: foot, magic, rides and ships. Apparently ships have become a much bigger portion of gameplay now too but I wouldnt know about that in detail as I've quit 4 years ago.
Social vs Nullsec. Good luck setting up a tavern in Nullsec. Good luck setting up an auction night or doing all the sorts of crazy stuff people used to socially do in UO. No match here.
Imbuing/Mats/Dyes vs Fitting. Fitting is nice but it's glorified gear-swapping. When you can modify by decision what each item you equip in your fitting window does, such as putting stats, passives, actives, whatever (not to mention customize colors, names and you name it just for fun), then Eve might be a contender on that. Not for now!
Salvage vs Nothing. It might be resource extraction, but it's also a lifestyle possibility, and that's a lot of what the original point was about. Not just what game mechanics let you do, but also how you can choose to interact with that world. Again if it were just about resource extraction I'd just have listed the many variations uo has there, not just the different skills but the different ways too. Wanna be a dungeon miner, a stealth miner, a hidden thief-miner, a monster miner... that's just for mining. Dont let me start boring you with "I combine the shit that I find and end up turning dust into gold" stories that are independent of in-game skills and are just about player knowledge and intelligent combinations.
Rune Library vs Jump Bridge Network. That'd be like botting toons in UO to open permanent moongates. Not the same. Rune libraries include a bit more than just linking people up to transport zones, it's more like giving access to every little square tile in the game to any player that comes about and decides to go there. Go to a rune library, look up the destination of your choice, and be right there within an instant. I dont think a jump bridge network covers it.
Shop vs Marketplace. Are you kidding? Running a shop, that means having a physical location that players can visit, restocking your vendors, leasing vending space to other players and all the interactions that go around that. No match there either.
Scams. Eve has its glory when it comes to that and you can definitely pull grandiose heists. UO offered more variety. I once sold a guy a bucket of white dye by making him believe that it dyed whiter than white, just by showing him some dyed clothes that actually naturally came whiter when you dyed them white. He bought it, I bought myself a new house. Eve has the epic scams, UO has the infinite variations in crookery. Let's say that's a tie to me.
Trapboxes vs Canning. What you're describing here is what used to be called noto pking in UO, that is using pvp flag mechanics to your own ends. Very different. Trapboxes were fucked up, as was locking people out of their own house. Sometime a thief snooped you by trying to open a locked trapped box that you'd placed in your backpack. Next thing you knew, you saw a guy (the thief) poisoned to death try to run away and die a few steps away. Other times, people walked around, saw that box on the ground, tried to open it thinking it was a regular dungeon chest, it blew up in their faces. Canning doesnt cover it.
Bard Skills. No worries, you could hire mercenary guilds and players in UO too. Truth is, again it didnt have the same scale and fully integral dimension Eve offers. But as with all fully player-drive, competitive, political environments, it was definitely doable. UO gets that one too.
Big difference, isnt there? Eve is great, but it's both too "large" and at the same time too focused to match UO on the front of freedom and opportunity. Its inherent game design ensures that it never will. I know that Eve offers a lot of non-game mechanics options, but UO did that too. Secret societies, diplomacy, spies, doppelgangers, you name it. Two great games in their own right, each doing its thing.
That was a really lovely post. I've palyed a bit of EVE and i loved it, however i never got to play UO. I now wish that i had
Would anyone count Entropia Online as somewhat close to the openworld-ness in UO? I play that quite a bit and i have a great time in it.
It's not just a function of game mechanics, it's that spark of imagination and enthusiasm in the community to go out, find the fun and grow playstyles that were unanticipated by the developers implementing the verbs.
How do I compare a auctioneer in UO to a spy in Eve to an cannoneer in Minecraft or a furry of Second Life? I don't want to rank the bredth of one community's imagination over another - it's far too subjective.
I played UO for years on and off, it was of course my first MMO.
Things that I remember...
If you got killed someone could take all the stuff you were carrying, unless you got to a healer, and then back to your body in a short time.
I know one player who played a con artist.
He played an attractive female, he would stand at some location and cry someone stole all my stuff. Other players would donate replacements, he would sell them and move on to a new location. Later he would go to the barber shop and change his appearance.
I remember when your armor was damaged you had to go to another player who was a blacksmith and have it fixed.
I remember baiting giants so that they tossed rocks at me and then using them to build a rock garden around my house.
I remember buying stuff to decorate my house.
I remember training my horse and then running around looking for him after being killed and coming back to my body.
I remember getting together with other players at their houses and sitting around talking.
I remember getting every monster in the area to chase me on my horse, and then running into town followed by dozens of bad guys.
I remember that it felt more like a real place then any one I have played since.
If you shoot a mime, do you have to use a silencer?
The graphics yuk and I hate games that make you hover way over head. Not sexy. I'm not playing if I can't be sexy.