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If you remove the "killing things" activity from MMORPGs, what remains? What would be required for a

InterestingInteresting Porto AlegrePosts: 950Member

Have you ever thought that every MMORPG we play, we are forced to roleplay some mass murderer genocidal character that kills whose main reason to live seems to be killing things? NPCs say casualy "go kill this! go kill that!" and we casually go and do that without thinking if it makes any sense or if its that the character we want to roleplay.

Its like the main attractiveness seem to be murdering stuff.

Even if its just  virtual, an idea of murdering, thats the main thing we are being sold as entertainment on most of these MMORPGs.

It reached a point where I ask myself. Is there any ALTERNATIVE? Is there any way out of this vicious cycle? Violence -> Power -> Violence. Why more games are not being made to deliver a more complete representation of  the activities in whatever lore and setting we are being immersed on? Its like every IP is focused on combat, has combat as the exclusive feature, or the main feature, or the most proeminent feature and everything else is relegate to second plan. Have you thought about that?

 

1. If you remove the "killing things" activity from MMORPGs, what remains?

2. What would be required for a game to sustain itself without "the killing of things"?

3. Was there ever a MMORPG without "killing things" as the main, most proeminent, or exclusive activity? Can you give examples? What is the upcomming MMORPGs without "killing things" to look forward?

 

It feels like right now, even the killing of things is not "satisfying". There doesnt seem to be an accurate/instant/complex player input/output through the gameplay (twitch ability), there doesnt seem to be consequences (as everything seem to be phased out, instant respawns, no awareness, past/presence/future connection to the act of taking someones/something's life and your character doesnt get any permanent/visible damage), there doesnt seem to be reasonable conflicts, there doesnt seem be represented in a realistic way through the graphics/animations/sound/engine.

Its hard to explain. Its not that I dont enjoy it. I do enjoy it, its just that Im feeling the way its being portraied in most MMORPGs in a way that its artificial, incoerent. It has none of the traits one could expect from true combat, true violence. There isnt emotions, there isnt adrenaline, there isnt drama, there isnt visual representation of what is going on, there is no action, excitement.

Now, when I play "Dwarf Fortress", the combat communicates in a satisfying way, why is that?

Here is the three first examples I got searching "Dwarf Fortress Combat" through google images.

 

image

image

 

See, even on the thing that these MMORPG games focus most. Their main thing. Their bread and butter. Its becoming dull, bland, boring, repetitive, uninteractive, unsatisfaying, unrealistic, incoerent, unintertaining.

I would like to see a major improvement on this area if they are to keep selling me "combat" as the main thing. The least I would like to see, is Mount and Blade, Dark Fall, or Overgrowth, Dark Souls, The Witcher 2 combat. Thats the least. It needs to step up.

 

I played Skyrim and I loved the combat, then I heard about the announcement of the Elders Scrolls Online and the developer interview said the combat is not going to be like Skyrim. Then I started to think... Why even bother then? I saw The Secret World, and the Star Wars The Old Republic and I felt very disappointed with the combat in those games.

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Comments

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member

    It can be done:

    http://www.atitd.com/

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

    image

  • EndDreamEndDream orange county, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    Ultima Online had tons of non-combat activities. Its one of the things that made is such a great game. Richard Garriot recently said that about 35% of UO players never participated in combat. 

    Remember when MMO's were worlds?

    Remember Old School Ultima Online

  • huskie77huskie77 Nowhere, NEPosts: 354Member

    There was an MMORPG called SEED that didn't have any killing and it's been a while but what I remember is most of the gameplay was based around repairing systems on a ship. Sadly it went bankrupt rather quickly.

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_(video_game)

    image
  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    There's a bunch of professions in Eve you could do without ever firing a shot.  Miners, manufacturers, traders, haulers, explorers, etc.

    Overall though mmorpg's have become one trick ponies.  While they do have other professions, they are only side jobs you do occasionally.  Most of the time they're boring and/or useless too.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Playing STO atm and that's one of the chief complaints people had for it in the beginning, nothing but fight scenes. Now it's got diplomacy, duty officer missions, diplmacy foundry mission etc. It's alot more rounded out then it used to be. But yeah most games are like that now, run around killing everything in site instead of anything else.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,612Member Uncommon
    What remains is called Second Life.
  • XeseXese Hershey, PAPosts: 39Member

    People play MMORPGs, and RPGs in general, to feel "heroic". People generally want to feel like they make a huge impact on the world being the hero. We don't feel like a hero if we are the awesomest miner or fisherman in the world, but we feel like a hero when we kill giant dragons or slay epic bosses (e.g. in Skyrim). Therefore MMORPGs want to cater to that, what "most of the people" want, by making us kill things and feel like a hero as a primary objective.

    So given the market today, games that do not feature combat as the main thing to do would be a niche game.

    EDIT: The MMO of the MMORPG component shines through more easily through combat by grouping you together. Crafting professions are, for the most part, solo'd. As long as you got the mats, you are by yourself to craft. The only difference is that there is a market where thousands of players pseudo-interact, but that  does not make a game an MMO (Diablo III also has an auction house...but it is not an MMO).

  • AnirethAnireth Posts: 599Member Uncommon

    I actually enjoyed the crafting and socializing (just sitting in a bar and talking about old times etc.) aspect of Ultima Online way more then killing. The problem was that killing was the easiest thing to do, you had lots of variety both in location and enemies, you got loot, you had progession both in ingame skill, in personal skill and in equipment..whereas many crafting professions lacked that.

    Skill usually grew slower, if you would chop wood or mine ore it isn't all that different which tree etc. you choose, so both the variety in location and "enemy" is gone, and as skill grew slower you had less progession in what you actually can do.

    Stuff not related to combat also got almost never destroyed, so smithing was the best thing outside of actual combat - lots of demands, lots of armors, you could create your own armor and use it in fighting etc.

    On the other hand that meant people that actually mastered tailoring, tinkering etc were way more popular then your random fighter, because as said before, anyone could master fighting (at least the character, not necesarily personal skill).

    Also, back then, at least on the RP-orientated shards, you would not go to an NPC, click two times, and you got your armor, you would visit your trusty smith and celebrate the deal with visiting the bar, or sitting on the balcony of either ones house.

    I spent hours doing literally nothing, having no character progression.

    You have to implement the ability and reasons to do such things to do away with killing, at least as only thing.

    In todays MMOs, you often can craft, but it's limited to equipment either usuable in battle or fashion that replaces your look so you can wear the armor with the better stats, instead the one looking good.

    You do not have the full production line with a lumberjack chopping wood, a miner digging for ore, a tinkerer using both to create some tool kit like a smiths hammer, grinding stone, needles etc, and a smith making armor, a tailor sewing clothes you were unless you are in battle, a baker producing food you actually have to eat instead of it just replenishing health or giving buffs etc.

    The only profession available in current MMOs not related to combat is trader, people buying and selling all day long, always looking for a good deal and coveted items.

    I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
    And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
    Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
    And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore

  • thekid1thekid1 GroningenPosts: 789Member

    If you have a player run economy with individual shops and housing..

    You could have a TON of options.

    and as motivation (isnstead of gettign money for the best gear to win in pvp) you could focus on the vanity of people. People want to have the best looking and most expensive items, just like in real life.

    Or you could alter the shooting pvp in something else. Sports, chess, whatever.

  • InterestingInteresting Porto AlegrePosts: 950Member

    I just editted the post. Didnt thought people would repply so fast.

     

    Any way, my point is.

     

    The ways/tools in wich we, the players INTERACT with the world, other people, objects, setting/lore, NEED TO GO/EXIST BEYOND COMBAT. 

    Or else, the COMBAT itself NEEDS TO EVOLVE.

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    It's nice that some companies don't want us to be killers of all things... but I recall the "kill, loot, repeat" quote from SWG execs when they gutted the game for the NGE. It's what they think we want, so we'll continue to get it.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    I could think of obvious examples, such as crafting, building, growing.

    I am a type of player that needs fighting in MMO, I think.

    When the city with its castle is built, when the vehicles (boats, siege weps, harvesters, w/e) are constructed, when we crafted all we needed, what is next thing to do? Take your army to the kingdom nextdoors and show them why that you stand for is right and why that they stand for is wrong...

    I think that a viable (for some people) model would be based on making a living city in which everyone has their own role. The city and its people have their needs which need to be satisfied. You need to ensure supply of food and water. You need protection from wild animals. You need to craft tools to be able to harvest or craft additional goods. Some people may enjoy this I guess.

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • KilsinKilsin NSWPosts: 345Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Interesting

    I just editted the post. Didnt thought people would repply so fast.

     

    Any way, my point is.

     

    The ways/tools in wich we, the players INTERACT with the world, other people, objects, setting/lore, NEED TO GO/EXIST BEYOND COMBAT. 

    Or else, the COMBAT itself NEEDS TO EVOLVE.

    I think we still need choices though and a reason to kill.

    I wish I could have a few options to deal with quests:

    killing (why?)

    Diplomacy (with a non speaking animal?)

    Avoid (can i still get the required task done?)

    Substitute (What if I did this instead?)

    If a game was in depth enough to have these choices that would also affect how you are received in the world, I think players would be happy to pay a subscription fee and support the game.

    As it stands, most players cough up money for the F2P junk that has been coming our way lately and not wanting to pay a sub fee due to the quality of the games and knowing they won't last long playing them.

    Just my thoughts and opinion on the subject anyway.

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
    Visit our Development Website.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    It can be done:

    http://www.atitd.com/

    a mentioned earlier, A Tale in the Desert, has been doing exactly this (no combat) for years, since 2003

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Tale_in_the_Desert

     

    dev interview

    http://archive.gamespy.com/interviews/january03/atitd/index.shtml

    In ATITD players progress via challenges, and the scale of the challenges is such that play requires cooperation, competition, and negotiation with fellow participants. Players can also work together to vote on laws that apply in the game world ... put together a smart enough petition, get sufficient votes, and eGenesis will implement this law in the game. Add in a huge game world, a steady stream of new content, and I think you might find yourself missing the hack-and-slash familiarity a bit less. eGenesis Founder, Lead Designer, and Pharaoh Andrew Tepper thinks you will too.

     

     

  • ComanComan Hattem, AKPosts: 2,032Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    It can be done:

    http://www.atitd.com/

     

    This answerd all the questions from the OP. It can be done and should be done more often in my opinion. ATITD is a deep and involved game

    Originally posted by dave6660

    There's a bunch of professions in Eve you could do without ever firing a shot.  Miners, manufacturers, traders, haulers, explorers, etc.

    Overall though mmorpg's have become one trick ponies.  While they do have other professions, they are only side jobs you do occasionally.  Most of the time they're boring and/or useless too.

    While true, but even the miners mine and people manufacture and haul so poeple can go "killing things". Not always true, but without killing things, there would be no point really to mine. I do guess however that EvE could be rebuild to be a game without combat and might not even be to hard to do. I thing an EvE like ATITD would actually be kinda entertaining, but that would not simply be removing combat from EvE but a whole game overhaul. 

    The OP should correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he is not talking about doing non-combat activities, but having no combat in the game at all

    Originally posted by thekid1

    If you have a player run economy with individual shops and housing..

    You could have a TON of options.

    and as motivation (isnstead of gettign money for the best gear to win in pvp) you could focus on the vanity of people. People want to have the best looking and most expensive items, just like in real life.

    Or you could alter the shooting pvp in something else. Sports, chess, whatever.

    In ATITD you progress by doing rituals like building the biggest tower (One of the rituals I believe), etc. Build you can also make art for people to vote on (also a goal), even make games that people played and voted on. 

     

  • PanthienPanthien ZaandamPosts: 559Member

    WIthout combat? I know technically speaking its not a mmo.. but second life comes to mind.

  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickPosts: 1,200Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Interesting

    I just editted the post. Didnt thought people would repply so fast.

     

    Any way, my point is.

     

    The ways/tools in wich we, the players INTERACT with the world, other people, objects, setting/lore, NEED TO GO/EXIST BEYOND COMBAT. 

    Or else, the COMBAT itself NEEDS TO EVOLVE.

    Combat won't evolve till mmo devs stop trying/exactly copying wow's combat and its mechanics. I'd actually love to see a tps/fps style pvp system where location damage matters, shoot your enemy/other player in the leg, they slow down, shoot in the arm their aim gets off kilter, Shoot in the head.. if its not a 1 shot (which it won't be cuz its a rpg) have it caused blurred vision and poor accuarcy. Bascally sort of what fallout 3/new vegas does.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    i like combat-centric games.

    There are many ways to make combat interesting. The primary is to have many possibility interacting abilities (not just numbers, abilities that does different things), and ask players pick and choose.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    Originally posted by Siveria
    Originally posted by Interesting

    I just editted the post. Didnt thought people would repply so fast.

     

    Any way, my point is.

     

    The ways/tools in wich we, the players INTERACT with the world, other people, objects, setting/lore, NEED TO GO/EXIST BEYOND COMBAT. 

    Or else, the COMBAT itself NEEDS TO EVOLVE.

    Combat won't evolve till mmo devs stop trying/exactly copying wow's combat and its mechanics. I'd actually love to see a tps/fps style pvp system where location damage matters, shoot your enemy/other player in the leg, they slow down, shoot in the arm their aim gets off kilter, Shoot in the head.. if its not a 1 shot (which it won't be cuz its a rpg) have it caused blurred vision and poor accuarcy. Bascally sort of what fallout 3/new vegas does.

    wow's combat and mechanics, can i see that patent please?

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    A little anecdote from Lord British himself.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4xfrVUj_c0&t=18m14s

  • InterestingInteresting Porto AlegrePosts: 950Member

    One of the aspects of combat that I think its missing, are the consequences.

     

    For example, after a fight, a character might acquire a permanent injury.

    Miss a limb, lose a function, a sense, partial movement, scars. Reasonable consequences from combat.

     

    Right now this whole abstraction of life through a health bar or a number has to go. Its used in all MMORPGs and nobody thought about it. Its bad for the immersion of it.

    The same way as the whole "dieing" and "respawning" suspension of disbelief without consequences.

    No material consequences, no chronological consequences, no espiritual consequences, no social consequences.

    For all possible effects, it basically didnt happen. The fight and the death didnt took place. There was no risk involved. Nothing...

     

    I think this is one of the things nobody is noticing when designing a MMORPG.

     

     

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member
    Originally posted by Interesting

    One of the aspects of combat that I think its missing, are the consequences.

     

    For example, after a fight, a character might acquire a permanent injury.

    Miss a limb, lose a function, a sense, partial movement, scars. Reasonable consequences from combat.

     

     

     

    Vanguard had that in beta, SWG had that before the NGE. You had to go to healers in cantinas and stuff to get the injuries removed. This created professions for non fighting players. They just ran bars to heal people. Or clinics.

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Denton, TXPosts: 3,138Member

    @ Interesting

     

    Not trying to be a killjoy or debbie downer but this topic has been talked about countless times on these forums. At least once a year.

     

    More to your post, others have mentioned ATITD, but also if you look at games like Ryzom, Wurm and SWG before the NGE you will see systems that do not "require" combat that provided fulfilling gameplay. That's one of the big reasons you see so many want to see SWG's crafting system make it into another game. And in a round about way we will one The Repopulation launches.

     

    Gaute Godager stated that Funcom's focus when launching Age of Conan was "Combat, Combat, Combat". Despite much outcry from folks like myself they stuck to those guns. They launched a game and much like every other themepark game of recent times within a year after launch they only had a fraction of the subscribers they started with. Ironically, a year or three after that they started to implement the non-cmbat creafting features we had begged for prior to launch. By then, though, most of us were gone and not looking back.

    Combat is NOT king.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • WeretigarWeretigar winifrede, WVPosts: 609Member

    www.hellokittyonline.com

    Heres one and the 2nd one is

     www.furcadia.com/

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Denton, TXPosts: 3,138Member
    Originally posted by Garvon3
    Originally posted by Interesting

    One of the aspects of combat that I think its missing, are the consequences.

     

    For example, after a fight, a character might acquire a permanent injury.

    Miss a limb, lose a function, a sense, partial movement, scars. Reasonable consequences from combat.

     

     

     

    Vanguard had that in beta, SWG had that before the NGE. You had to go to healers in cantinas and stuff to get the injuries removed. This created professions for non fighting players. They just ran bars to heal people. Or clinics.

    Yup. I was one. Doctor/Combat Medic. Most fun I have ever had in an MMO, ever.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

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