Originally posted by drakaena This game just screams single player rpg with some co-rpg features. What did you expect?
All mmorpg's made after 2004 scream single player, nothing new here. Its the era of the Console Gamer and iPad / Tablet junkies when it comes to gaming online.
The old school days of EQ, AC, AO and SWG are over. We are in a different time where the generation wants instant gratification and wants there character in any mmorpg to be a tank, healer and dps all in 1 character.
I hope that GW2 and future MMO's break this current trend. We need more community in our MMO's.. if I want a single player experiance I will go grab The Witcher franchise and have at it.
GW2 isn't going to break this. It is going to be the same way. How much socialization or community you experience will be up to the player.
This isn't the fault of the games. If players can't socialize or form a community on their own unless they have group content forced upon them then...well...rather sad really
Thank you!!! I get so tired of reading posts that expect games to teach players how to socialize. People are able to do it every day on facebook without some carrot dangling in front of them. Even that doesn't seem to matter anymore. TOR offered extra XP for grouping along with countless group content and players STILL bitched about it being a single player game. A developer can put every LFG type system in existence into a game and if the players choose to not use it there is nothing that can be done. Almost every MMO has a guild system of some type that is very accessible. That should be all you need if you REALLY do care about a group experience and playing with others.
There's nothig stopping players from randomly popping in and helping others when they're getting a beatdown.
There's nothing stopping a player from joining a group of like minded players and doing stuff with them.
There's nothing stopping players from forming their own community.
If players don't make the effort to meet people, no system created by any devloper is going to change that. For all the tough talk around here about how communities don't form in these games, it's very interesting how many of them are from posters who refuse to join a guild and become part of a ..um...community.
Originally posted by drakaena This game just screams single player rpg with some co-rpg features. What did you expect?
All mmorpg's made after 2004 scream single player, nothing new here. Its the era of the Console Gamer and iPad / Tablet junkies when it comes to gaming online.
The old school days of EQ, AC, AO and SWG are over. We are in a different time where the generation wants instant gratification and wants there character in any mmorpg to be a tank, healer and dps all in 1 character.
Considering that there's still a low population of healers and tanks in the game (while it's possible to have builds for all, but most are reluctant to do anything other than DPS) it doens't seem the case.
Most gamers now a days are the same there were back then, just older. Which also mean most have less time. WHich also mean they likely got to grind endlessly many of those older games. the ones that have pushed the genre away form endless grinds, and towards more casual friendly outset are the ones that made the oldschool MMO's thrive. Life changes, people has less gaming time, have kids, business, etc, etc... and now all of a sudden having to stay online 5 hours to complete something is no longer good, cause it's not good for most players, due to real life.
Most MMO gamers are over 30 y/o, and as much as they love their memories in UO or the years it took to got to 220 in AO, or whatever game they played 10 or 15 years ago, they no longer would do the same.
Rather have a good experience that can be enjoyed playing 2-4 hours 3-5 days a week than being frustrated by not being able to actually progress within your real time budget.
If people would still be willing to play like we played back then, games would be like those, and we would still take months or years to reach "endgame"
Can anyone here who is calling TSW a multiplayer co-op and a single player game name one single game where you were not able to solo in? Excluding group content since thats been excluded for all the complaints regarding TSW...
Go ahead lets see the list of games where, excluding group specific content, that you had to group up to progress. Im sure this will be ignored by those very people.
Need to find a new straw man to bash this game. Your combat complaints were better since its an extremely objective mechanic and most of you beta testers who are doing the complaining were subjected to the most basic and shallow skills. Its much less of a strawman than the co-op statement.
Anyone want to bet they dont reply to this? Its that bad of a strawman argument.
If you feel alone you need to open your eyes there are people everywhere...if you NEED to group with people to have fun you can group with anyone at any time and its a very common occurance in the game, yes even for the missions. You see more people running around in pairs and threesomes than you do alone.
I can give you lonely as I don't think the game is all that cooperative.
But slow and painful advancement. No. Not really. I suppose if you were talking about grinding signets out or something maybe. But you can get a rather nice and broad survey of active/passive abilities and skill sets without trying really.
I basically have enough SP right now for 3 QL10 weapons and all QL10 talismans and I have only done 5% of transylvania at best. I have reached the outer ring in 4 weapons and invest invested to a mid point in about 5 outer ring sets and modestly in another 5 outer ring sets.
All in all the advancement seems fine. I will say many abilities are redundant or useless or just plain inferior to another analog. So that does make some of the advancement meh, but all in all the points awarded and being able to get enough for both decent power and versatility is pretty fine.
However for people who do not want to do any analysis or thinking about their builds I guess I could see a problem. I have spent multiple 30 minute spans staring at the my guy's ability wheel and just thinking about things. Especially when I see a novel nightmare buff/debuff interaction variation.
Anyway you gotta think about builds. That is a major point of this game and it is an RPG so that shouldn't a problem its part of the genre. There are no fast and easy rules like "Don't make a build based on Hinder". Yes alot of hard things are immune to hinder but some nightmare guys are also vulnerable to it.
There is really one build rule: Don't rely on one build.
Can anyone here who is calling TSW a multiplayer co-op and a single player game name one single game where you were not able to solo in? Excluding group content since thats been excluded for all the complaints regarding TSW...
Go ahead lets see the list of games where, excluding group specific content, that you had to group up to progress. Im sure this will be ignored by those very people.
Need to find a new straw man to bash this game. Your combat complaints were better since its an extremely objective mechanic and most of you beta testers who are doing the complaining were subjected to the most basic and shallow skills. Its much less of a strawman than the co-op statement.
Anyone want to bet they dont reply to this? Its that bad of a strawman argument.
If you feel alone you need to open your eyes there are people everywhere...if you NEED to group with people to have fun you can group with anyone at any time and its a very common occurance in the game, yes even for the missions. You see more people running around in pairs and threesomes than you do alone.
Ok really simple... FFXI
Do I get a cookie?
A game does not need to be non-soloable to be cooperative. Just look at many of the design philosophies going into GW2.
I am sure the various forced grouping advocates will attempt to dispute this as they always. There is of course only one way and that is tyranny and anal retentive control of people playstyles after all.
However that being said a number of mechanics in TSW simply do not lend themselves to playing with other people. I personally do not like to do investigation quest with other people. I also don't really like to do sabotage missions with other people. The kill quests are ok to do with people. Obviously dungeons are meant to be done with other people.
Also there is the typical competing with other players who are not explicitly in your group non-cooperative issue. I appreicate that at least boss mobs get you credit if you hit the mob and someone else "tagged" it. But most the kill mission mechanics are awkward to group with as well and having other players around you while you do them can work against in multiple ways.
Grouping is pretty damn easy in the game actually. Rarely am I not at least duoing with someone I met while we happened to be on teh same quest and then just stayed group for the quests.
I haven't tried pvp yet.
So alone? no. It's up to you. There is no need to group, but do it because you like to, not because you need to. And when in groups you skills just kind of synergize, much more fun IMO.
Too fast, not really. Too slow, not really. I wish I was getting SP faster but getting loads of AP. Feels ok to me.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The MMO-People have been crying about finishing a game 2 quicly, now you are crying because you feel alone? And that you are confronted by quests that are awesome and fun, but hard 2 do, since they require you 2 think.
The common point here is most ppl always cry, if you feel like bursting into tears, please go ahead, but just don't even think that anyone that gets TSW would care
This has been the most engaging game I have played in years, And I will still play this in 6months because its that good.
Yes its hard
Yes its not for everyone
And if its not for you, don't blame the game, rather look in the mirror and ask yourself...
There is a saying that goes, no Pain no Gain, and this is the first game that gets that we want Pain
Because who would care about you being QL20 if it took you 20yours 2 get?
Can anyone here who is calling TSW a multiplayer co-op and a single player game name one single game where you were not able to solo in? Excluding group content since thats been excluded for all the complaints regarding TSW...
Anyone want to bet they dont reply to this? Its that bad of a strawman argument.
Ok really simple... FFXI
Do I get a cookie?
A game does not need to be non-soloable to be cooperative. Just look at many of the design philosophies going into GW2.
I am sure the various forced grouping advocates will attempt to dispute this as they always. There is of course only one way and that is tyranny and anal retentive control of people playstyles after all.
However that being said a number of mechanics in TSW simply do not lend themselves to playing with other people. I personally do not like to do investigation quest with other people. I also don't really like to do sabotage missions with other people. The kill quests are ok to do with people. Obviously dungeons are meant to be done with other people.
Also there is the typical competing with other players who are not explicitly in your group non-cooperative issue. I appreicate that at least boss mobs get you credit if you hit the mob and someone else "tagged" it. But most the kill mission mechanics are awkward to group with as well and having other players around you while you do them can work against in multiple ways.
Oh I'm totally with you on all points. I was just responding to a specific post that seemed to take the position that there weren't any games with mandatory grouping and story development and that is simply false
One pet peeve of mine is how people think "Co-Op" is somehow an insult. I think both TSW and SWTOR would be fantastic Solo/Co-Op games - much better than they are as MMOs, and that the Solo/Co-Op format is inherently much better suited to strong storytelling gameplay elements.
One thing TSW has, that new and upcoming MMO's appear to be adopting is giving credit for helping others kill a mob even when you aren't grouped. In this way it feels less lonely than other games.
I remember being in TOR beta and looking upon other players in suspicion in the Black Sun area, because it seems like they're positioning themselves to killsteal or waiting for you to aggro the mobs that are guarding a node that you also need.
In TSW, and soon in GW2 you don't have this issue. Getting a hand killing a mob can actually be appreciated, especially since combat lasts so G-D long. It's a relief to see someone else clearly on the same mission(Jack o' Lantern, in particular), where working independently or cooperatively, grouped or ungrouped, you assist each other in your goal.
Mechanically, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but socially it actually feels much more like everyone is working toward the same goal, as it should be. It feels better as a community. So to me anyway, that's a big deal.
This is one of the things I like about questing to relax and why I don't feel lonely when I play. People often run by and throw you heals when you need and help you finish off mobs. It's really nice when you do a bad pull and it looks like you are going down, and someone comes along and helps out.
In contrast, when I played SWTOR, I always tried to buff others I saw out pve-ing. But it was a very rare occassion when they reciprocated. I don't know why. Even WoW players were more forthcoming with buffs. And those buffs -- which each class has in SWTOR -- can help a lot. Maybe that community was not famiiar with mmorpg play? I don't know. So that felt really bad for me as a player. I sometimes sent tells to people saying, hey can I have a buff? Only worked about half the time. I was really confused by that. There was nobody else around, we were the same faction, wtf...
So maybe it is game design, maybe it is the way people play, but I find it much more easier to meet people of whatever faction in TSW. You send a tell to someone and thank them for help, they respond, you can ask about a quest, you can work together, you can RP even (on my server).
That's another thing that I think facilitiates interaction -- the modern setting. I think it lowers the barrier to entry for RP since it doesn't feel silly to be an elf or something. You can naturally transition into a role if you like and it's pretty new and I think accessible to people who haven't RP-ed before and maybe to people who didn't even plan on it.
Recently, in Fushang, I asked Dragon, "where are we going next?" and someone responded, "when you understand chaos, the way will make itself clear." It was fun, it changed the mood, it opened up a new aspect of the game for me and made it more likely for me to interact with that person in future.
i just dont think finding a cabal would even help in this case, because questing with someone else is not really in this games design.
i bought the game thinking i could do something other then just quest to advance, i guess i was just plain wrong. if there are no rewards for pvp then playing the game all day alone doesnt seem to justify any "end game" for me.
i just dont enjoy running around alone in an mmo, it kinda saddens me that so many mmoers like this type of gameplay.
im kinda at a loss for words on how unenjoyable this game has been for me in my first 24 hours of played time.
Sorry to hear that you didnt like the game, my first 24 hours have been a huge blast. While I do agree and think one of the "bummer" aspects of the game is that it feels and plays a lot like a single player game most of the time (solo instances ?)
But I have been to immersed in the story and setting to really let it bother me too much.
I have also grouped up on several occasions, usually just random people helping out, or joining up for a boss mob. And there are instances too. The big plus is so far the community is very helpful and mature (unlike most MMO these days where you get flamed for asking anything)
I do wish they would give more inventives to group, but they are there if you look for them
and yeah I have been gathering quest rewards, disassembling them to make my own gear and enchants. A crafting system I actually like !
I do agree that FC probably should add more group-intended content. Forcing people to group is a completley bad idea, but putting stuff out there that require groups, by near endgame, for instance, or every now and then, on top of missions that send you to elite areas would be nice.
I want to see what thye have in store with their NY raid stuff (specially considering it probably is related to the main poster used for game marketing for years, and the cinematic with the iconic characters facing... Cthulhu's cousin ... in NY) But raids are not for everyone. i want to hear more about the Pvp dungeon they are also working for, and i expect them to consider the idea of making mixed PvP/PvE areas too. But for more word on some of this i have to wait till August.
monthly updates i am sure won't be big, but 7 new quests (most of them being investigation) is a good start considering they are still in the launch fix/complete/implement/balance state.
One thing TSW has, that new and upcoming MMO's appear to be adopting is giving credit for helping others kill a mob even when you aren't grouped. In this way it feels less lonely than other games.
I remember being in TOR beta and looking upon other players in suspicion in the Black Sun area, because it seems like they're positioning themselves to killsteal or waiting for you to aggro the mobs that are guarding a node that you also need.
In TSW, and soon in GW2 you don't have this issue. Getting a hand killing a mob can actually be appreciated, especially since combat lasts so G-D long. It's a relief to see someone else clearly on the same mission(Jack o' Lantern, in particular), where working independently or cooperatively, grouped or ungrouped, you assist each other in your goal.
Mechanically, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but socially it actually feels much more like everyone is working toward the same goal, as it should be. It feels better as a community. So to me anyway, that's a big deal.
In contrast, when I played SWTOR, I always tried to buff others I saw out pve-ing. But it was a very rare occassion when they reciprocated. I don't know why. Even WoW players were more forthcoming with buffs. And those buffs -- which each class has in SWTOR -- can help a lot. Maybe that community was not famiiar with mmorpg play? I don't know. So that felt really bad for me as a player. I sometimes sent tells to people saying, hey can I have a buff? Only worked about half the time. I was really confused by that. There was nobody else around, we were the same faction, wtf...
Actually, there was a pretty good reason for that. The PvP flag. When I first started in beta on the PvP server, I was handing those out like candy to anyone and everyone, and sometimes trying to heal while they were in combat. And at the time, I was also getting those buffs from others quite a bit. But on PVE servers, you started getting flagged for PvP for assisting other PvP flagged individuals. While I'd still buff occasionally, I did it nowhere near as often as I had before. I may be wrong, but I don't think you can flag for PvP in TSW, so that's never an issue.
That's another thing that I think facilitiates interaction -- the modern setting. I think it lowers the barrier to entry for RP since it doesn't feel silly to be an elf or something. You can naturally transition into a role if you like and it's pretty new and I think accessible to people who haven't RP-ed before and maybe to people who didn't even plan on it.
. I may be wrong, but I don't think you can flag for PvP in TSW, so that's never an issue.
No unfortunately. Would be pretty badass if you could.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Comments
All mmorpg's made after 2004 scream single player, nothing new here. Its the era of the Console Gamer and iPad / Tablet junkies when it comes to gaming online.
The old school days of EQ, AC, AO and SWG are over. We are in a different time where the generation wants instant gratification and wants there character in any mmorpg to be a tank, healer and dps all in 1 character.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Considering that there's still a low population of healers and tanks in the game (while it's possible to have builds for all, but most are reluctant to do anything other than DPS) it doens't seem the case.
Most gamers now a days are the same there were back then, just older. Which also mean most have less time. WHich also mean they likely got to grind endlessly many of those older games. the ones that have pushed the genre away form endless grinds, and towards more casual friendly outset are the ones that made the oldschool MMO's thrive. Life changes, people has less gaming time, have kids, business, etc, etc... and now all of a sudden having to stay online 5 hours to complete something is no longer good, cause it's not good for most players, due to real life.
Most MMO gamers are over 30 y/o, and as much as they love their memories in UO or the years it took to got to 220 in AO, or whatever game they played 10 or 15 years ago, they no longer would do the same.
Rather have a good experience that can be enjoyed playing 2-4 hours 3-5 days a week than being frustrated by not being able to actually progress within your real time budget.
If people would still be willing to play like we played back then, games would be like those, and we would still take months or years to reach "endgame"
[mod edit] Same story and old news. Either you like the game or not, doesn't need to be said any more.
I enjoy the game vs any other MMO out now. Doesn't make it the best, but makes it the best for my money. [mod edit]
Ok really simple... FFXI
Do I get a cookie?
I can give you lonely as I don't think the game is all that cooperative.
But slow and painful advancement. No. Not really. I suppose if you were talking about grinding signets out or something maybe. But you can get a rather nice and broad survey of active/passive abilities and skill sets without trying really.
I basically have enough SP right now for 3 QL10 weapons and all QL10 talismans and I have only done 5% of transylvania at best. I have reached the outer ring in 4 weapons and invest invested to a mid point in about 5 outer ring sets and modestly in another 5 outer ring sets.
All in all the advancement seems fine. I will say many abilities are redundant or useless or just plain inferior to another analog. So that does make some of the advancement meh, but all in all the points awarded and being able to get enough for both decent power and versatility is pretty fine.
However for people who do not want to do any analysis or thinking about their builds I guess I could see a problem. I have spent multiple 30 minute spans staring at the my guy's ability wheel and just thinking about things. Especially when I see a novel nightmare buff/debuff interaction variation.
Anyway you gotta think about builds. That is a major point of this game and it is an RPG so that shouldn't a problem its part of the genre. There are no fast and easy rules like "Don't make a build based on Hinder". Yes alot of hard things are immune to hinder but some nightmare guys are also vulnerable to it.
There is really one build rule: Don't rely on one build.
A game does not need to be non-soloable to be cooperative. Just look at many of the design philosophies going into GW2.
I am sure the various forced grouping advocates will attempt to dispute this as they always. There is of course only one way and that is tyranny and anal retentive control of people playstyles after all.
However that being said a number of mechanics in TSW simply do not lend themselves to playing with other people. I personally do not like to do investigation quest with other people. I also don't really like to do sabotage missions with other people. The kill quests are ok to do with people. Obviously dungeons are meant to be done with other people.
Also there is the typical competing with other players who are not explicitly in your group non-cooperative issue. I appreicate that at least boss mobs get you credit if you hit the mob and someone else "tagged" it. But most the kill mission mechanics are awkward to group with as well and having other players around you while you do them can work against in multiple ways.
Grouping is pretty damn easy in the game actually. Rarely am I not at least duoing with someone I met while we happened to be on teh same quest and then just stayed group for the quests.
I haven't tried pvp yet.
So alone? no. It's up to you. There is no need to group, but do it because you like to, not because you need to. And when in groups you skills just kind of synergize, much more fun IMO.
Too fast, not really. Too slow, not really. I wish I was getting SP faster but getting loads of AP. Feels ok to me.
That pretty much covers it.
Oh I'm totally with you on all points. I was just responding to a specific post that seemed to take the position that there weren't any games with mandatory grouping and story development and that is simply false
One pet peeve of mine is how people think "Co-Op" is somehow an insult. I think both TSW and SWTOR would be fantastic Solo/Co-Op games - much better than they are as MMOs, and that the Solo/Co-Op format is inherently much better suited to strong storytelling gameplay elements.
This is one of the things I like about questing to relax and why I don't feel lonely when I play. People often run by and throw you heals when you need and help you finish off mobs. It's really nice when you do a bad pull and it looks like you are going down, and someone comes along and helps out.
In contrast, when I played SWTOR, I always tried to buff others I saw out pve-ing. But it was a very rare occassion when they reciprocated. I don't know why. Even WoW players were more forthcoming with buffs. And those buffs -- which each class has in SWTOR -- can help a lot. Maybe that community was not famiiar with mmorpg play? I don't know. So that felt really bad for me as a player. I sometimes sent tells to people saying, hey can I have a buff? Only worked about half the time. I was really confused by that. There was nobody else around, we were the same faction, wtf...
So maybe it is game design, maybe it is the way people play, but I find it much more easier to meet people of whatever faction in TSW. You send a tell to someone and thank them for help, they respond, you can ask about a quest, you can work together, you can RP even (on my server).
That's another thing that I think facilitiates interaction -- the modern setting. I think it lowers the barrier to entry for RP since it doesn't feel silly to be an elf or something. You can naturally transition into a role if you like and it's pretty new and I think accessible to people who haven't RP-ed before and maybe to people who didn't even plan on it.
Recently, in Fushang, I asked Dragon, "where are we going next?" and someone responded, "when you understand chaos, the way will make itself clear." It was fun, it changed the mood, it opened up a new aspect of the game for me and made it more likely for me to interact with that person in future.
Sorry to hear that you didnt like the game, my first 24 hours have been a huge blast. While I do agree and think one of the "bummer" aspects of the game is that it feels and plays a lot like a single player game most of the time (solo instances ?)
But I have been to immersed in the story and setting to really let it bother me too much.
I have also grouped up on several occasions, usually just random people helping out, or joining up for a boss mob. And there are instances too. The big plus is so far the community is very helpful and mature (unlike most MMO these days where you get flamed for asking anything)
I do wish they would give more inventives to group, but they are there if you look for them
and yeah I have been gathering quest rewards, disassembling them to make my own gear and enchants. A crafting system I actually like !
anyway which shard did you pick ?
I do agree that FC probably should add more group-intended content. Forcing people to group is a completley bad idea, but putting stuff out there that require groups, by near endgame, for instance, or every now and then, on top of missions that send you to elite areas would be nice.
I want to see what thye have in store with their NY raid stuff (specially considering it probably is related to the main poster used for game marketing for years, and the cinematic with the iconic characters facing... Cthulhu's cousin ... in NY) But raids are not for everyone. i want to hear more about the Pvp dungeon they are also working for, and i expect them to consider the idea of making mixed PvP/PvE areas too. But for more word on some of this i have to wait till August.
monthly updates i am sure won't be big, but 7 new quests (most of them being investigation) is a good start considering they are still in the launch fix/complete/implement/balance state.
No unfortunately. Would be pretty badass if you could.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Provided that any AoE abilities that a non-flagged player uses would have no effect on flagged players, sure.
Seems like it would be far too easy to kill/die, though.