I wouldnt even want anything in the cash shop for free let alone pay for it lol so the cash shop dont really bother me too much..
Saying that I think cash shops are stupid evil things that shuold be banned from all computer games.. f2p and cash shops have helped destroy the MMO industry.. of course wow has helped as well..
I'm not against a cash shop but tsw did keep a lot out for it. During beta I was able to by gloves and shades in game but those were removed and are now only in the cash shop. Besides the deck clothing the only clothing you can buy is the bland stuff available when you create your character. I am still rocking the same stuff from cc under my mercenary set which I have just settled to stick with do to lack of options. With armor being removed from the game which usually keeps your character evolving over the course of a game the clothing options are more important and less available than even some ftp games I've played.
Gloves are still in the game, as are sunglasses. I have them on my player right now....so this is kinda false. There's TONS of clothing and several clothing vendors, so no....you're not just stuck with the stuff your character has.....
Have you never gone to london?!
Edit:
There are 9 slots on your character for gear that has stats. So I dunno where that come from either.
yes I did but didn't see gloves just the stuff that was available from cc. I could be wrong though where did you find the gloves and shades?At the clothing store?
Talismans don't change your apearance.
Yes there are 7 clothing vendors per sex in the store in London. Each one sells different stuff depending on their title. "Business Attire" is suits and stuff "Modern Fasion" has the slim shades on it, the "Street Wear" dude or w/e has gloves. Expedition Fasion guy has lots of crazy expensive and nice coats and stuff on him, export merchant has long coats and biker jackets.
Thanks for the info, in fact, I've never been to London. I started out in NY and actually have never explored that city outside of the base, much less thought of randomly going to London. I'll have to do some exploring tonight to check it out.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So many haters bitch and moan about the cash shop in TSW.... the shop ONLY sells clothing, pets, outfits, titles.... all cosmetic shit that gives you ABSOLUTELY NO ADVANTAGE in the game ... there are ingame vendors who sell shitloads of clothing... theres a pet vendor.... so you cannot buy a title with pax..... who the fuck cares? unbelieveable that people say that the cash shop in TSW is ridiculous and a disgrace.. if you think its a disgrace that FC offers vanity items to those who can afford it, then move along, or get a better paying job that will allow you to be vain as well.
haha... It is outrageous that they're offering a cash shop when the game has a monthly fee... It would be great to have something like in game shop and you could get all those items you want for some rare currency which is obtainable only trough game...
I don't get it why do people support companies efforts to milk you dry. Just because the game is good enough for you to play it is enough to take on this really greedy move? We already know that the subscription is a robbery and outdated model because they can't make new content with the same pace as they're getting profit from subs (and you can't blame the costs of the servers or bandwith because nowadays that's really just a minor, and cheap, issue). So why the hell would someone support this model is just out of this world for me.
Why do people spend money on anything extra in life? it is not just about video games. people have disposable income and they want to spend it.
Do i go around stressing my brain everytime i see someone wearing a gold plated rolex? after all my cheap casio watch can also tell time in same effecient manner.. but hey that guy got money to burn so good for him.
People need to stop stressing about how others choose to spend their money.
Well I for one played mmorpg's so I can rest from my usual work / bills / rl issues stuff.
To turn off and separate from those things for an hour, two or in those rare cases for bit more if I have time.
Mmorpg's used to bring immersion on a level and in a way no book or movie could.
Cash Shop bring direct connection with a real world thus destroying this immersion and this reason I played them.
I have nothing against people spending their money, problem is I don't have OPTION to play in a enviroment with cash shop.
I would be willing to pay 3-5$ bucks / month MORE (higher sub) for an access to separate no cash shop server.
Obviously that would have to mean in TSW that those server would have to have severed ties with other servers that are linked though 'one server technology' - that's an issue for whole other discussion.
TSW is designed from group up with CS in mind.
Since that is not offered then that why I am not happy and just not playing mmorpg's and just play single player games / reading books for my 'calm' leisure time.
It is simply that certain service that people were using is not avabile anymore and that's why they are not content.
Sure many people don't understand that since for them this reasoning is totally alien and don't care about stuff I've written above. Still I am not judging them just offering you one of possible explanations. (there are other diffrent explanations and reasons why some people don't like CS as well, this post is too long already though).
Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.
.
Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.
Welcome to the gaming industry
You are so lucky to get a job here !
Every year, we will reduce your salary,
BUT we'll expect you to produce better quality work (it's 2012, so no excuse for bugs in your code will be accepted)
AND in ever increasing volume (no excuse for a game to launch without masses of content all the way to endgame).
The gaming industry is a magical place. It's the only branch of industry where shareholders will not demand that your annual profits increase so that they get better dividends. Investors will be happy to lend you vast sums of money at great risk. If your game tanks and you cannot pay back the loan, they'll shrug and say: "Aww shucks, better luck next time. We didn't really need that $70M anyway. By the way, how much do you need for the next project ?"
Games are made by people, not machines. Labour cost is the major expense for any software company. Hardware and bandwidth for running an MMO is a relatively small part of the expense, always was.
Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.
.
Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.
Maintence, support staff, and bandwidth costs HAVE come down over time, yes. Technology is cheaper, staff have been outsourced to china/india, and bandwidth is pennies now. Things that a sub is "supposed" to pay for have effectively become nearly free. $15/month used to be needed for technology and servers and bandwidth... but that is like 1% of a game's mainenance cost these days.
Game development, and standard customer support.... has always been paid for by box sales. This is how it's worked for every other non-MMORPG game company out there, and it seems to have worked for them.
Sorry but cash shops in a subscription supported game = one thing and one thing only.. a disqusting predatory level of greed that should never be condoned.
Luckily for TSW the game will be F2P within 6 months and the all the lifetimes will be getting free cashshop money each month.
Ehm, why?
The man hours that are assigned to the shop-servicse are paid by the income from the cash shop. The exclusive shop-cosmetic items and titles would NEVER BE otherwise in the game. It is solely an additional service NOT at the expense of the content for regular subscribers.
The question I have is whether the current cash shop is just to get people used to the idea. And that the pay to win items are going to be slowly introduced sometime later.
This is of course a valid concern. CCP tried this with the monocle debacle in EVE and that didn't end very well. Hopefully other devs have learned from them.
I'm pretty sure my cash shop bought aviation shades and shirt&tie give me a definite advantage over other players that don't use the cash shop - advantage in looking cool!
So many haters bitch and moan about the cash shop in TSW.... the shop ONLY sells clothing, pets, outfits, titles.... all cosmetic shit that gives you ABSOLUTELY NO ADVANTAGE in the game ... there are ingame vendors who sell shitloads of clothing... theres a pet vendor.... so you cannot buy a title with pax..... who the fuck cares? unbelieveable that people say that the cash shop in TSW is ridiculous and a disgrace.. if you think its a disgrace that FC offers vanity items to those who can afford it, then move along, or get a better paying job that will allow you to be vain as well.
haha... It is outrageous that they're offering a cash shop when the game has a monthly fee... It would be great to have something like in game shop and you could get all those items you want for some rare currency which is obtainable only trough game...
I don't get it why do people support companies efforts to milk you dry. Just because the game is good enough for you to play it is enough to take on this really greedy move? We already know that the subscription is a robbery and outdated model because they can't make new content with the same pace as they're getting profit from subs (and you can't blame the costs of the servers or bandwith because nowadays that's really just a minor, and cheap, issue). So why the hell would someone support this model is just out of this world for me.
Why do people spend money on anything extra in life? it is not just about video games. people have disposable income and they want to spend it.
Do i go around stressing my brain everytime i see someone wearing a gold plated rolex? after all my cheap casio watch can also tell time in same effecient manner.. but hey that guy got money to burn so good for him.
People need to stop stressing about how others choose to spend their money.
Well, isn't what this thread is all about ? Stressing on why people don't want to spend their money on the cash shop and have a problem with it ?
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.
They are literally developing stuff for the sub players with the money they got from the cash shop.
Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.
.
Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.
Maintence, support staff, and bandwidth costs HAVE come down over time, yes. Technology is cheaper, staff have been outsourced to china/india, and bandwidth is pennies now. Things that a sub is "supposed" to pay for have effectively become nearly free. $15/month used to be needed for technology and servers and bandwidth... but that is like 1% of a game's mainenance cost these days.
Game development, and standard customer support.... has always been paid for by box sales. This is how it's worked for every other non-MMORPG game company out there, and it seems to have worked for them.
Non MMO's have like what, 20, 30, maybe 50 hours of content. MMORPG's have anywhere from 100 to perhaps 500 hours of content, so then by your logic in order to pay for their extraordinary development costs a MMORPG should have a box price of like, $250.00?
Since no one will pay that, they expect to recoop some of the development costs (which have jumped from about 10M per title to over 300M if some reports are to be trusted) rewarding those who were willing to risk the investment in the project in the first place.
Another big use of sub fees is to fund not only development of new features in the current game, but also fund the development of the companies future titles, so they don't have to turn to outside investors for funding. CCP is funding two titles, WOD and DUST 514 with the revenues generated from EVE (much to my displeasure, but what can you do?)
It was never about the cost to maintain the servers, that's always a small figure in the overall scheme of things.
And while its true that there is more outsourcing most western MMORPG's seem to keep a much larger portion of their development onshore as opposed to outsourcing it overseas.
And speaking of outsourcing, you have any idea what that really costs? My firm pays an average of $42.00 an hour for contract offshore resources (and we have the economic muscle to really squeeze the prices down from our vendors) which is a good deal compared to the average costs of roughly $87.00 per hour for onshore vendors or employees.
But either way, the bills add up quick especially when you have a large team, TESO seems to have over 250 people working on it, SWTOR and even the recently failed 38 Studios had more on the payroll.
And like I said, seems like most western MMO's use onshore resources more often than not.
Finally, we need to talk about profit. These games are not labors of love, they are profit making entities and the more profit, the better for the people who sponsor them. They don't care if you think what they make is obscene, they take the risks by investing 100M or so, there's no issue reaping the rewards of their successes, as well as their failures.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.
They are literally developing stuff for the sub players with the money they got from the cash shop.
See what I did there?
In that case why have a sub at all?
Any way you slice it, they are double-dipping their profits. If people are fine w/ it, than that's their choice. However, there isn't any real justification for having both. Post-WoW, the industry has shown that cash shops are actually better for generating revenue anyhow.
Hell, I don't see why they couldn't just do the Turbine model tbh. Give people a choice, have an unrestricted game for the sub, or free but limit most of the outfits to the cash shop. Currently they are doing the worst of both.
Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.
Sorry but cash shops in a subscription supported game = one thing and one thing only.. a disqusting predatory level of greed that should never be condoned.
i would tend to agree with you. although sub fees also haven't gone up in the last ten years, to account for inflation.
Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.
.
Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.
Maintence, support staff, and bandwidth costs HAVE come down over time, yes. Technology is cheaper, staff have been outsourced to china/india, and bandwidth is pennies now. Things that a sub is "supposed" to pay for have effectively become nearly free. $15/month used to be needed for technology and servers and bandwidth... but that is like 1% of a game's mainenance cost these days.
Game development, and standard customer support.... has always been paid for by box sales. This is how it's worked for every other non-MMORPG game company out there, and it seems to have worked for them.
Non MMO's have like what, 20, 30, maybe 50 hours of content. MMORPG's have anywhere from 100 to perhaps 500 hours of content, so then by your logic in order to pay for their extraordinary development costs a MMORPG should have a box price of like, $250.00?
Since no one will pay that, they expect to recoop some of the development costs (which have jumped from about 10M per title to over 300M if some reports are to be trusted) rewarding those who were willing to risk the investment in the project in the first place.
Another big use of sub fees is to fund not only development of new features in the current game, but also fund the development of the companies future titles, so they don't have to turn to outside investors for funding. CCP is funding two titles, WOD and DUST 514 with the revenues generated from EVE (much to my displeasure, but what can you do?)
It was never about the cost to maintain the servers, that's always a small figure in the overall scheme of things.
And while its true that there is more outsourcing most western MMORPG's seem to keep a much larger portion of their development onshore as opposed to outsourcing it overseas.
And speaking of outsourcing, you have any idea what that really costs? My firm pays an average of $42.00 an hour for contract offshore resources (and we have the economic muscle to really squeeze the prices down from our vendors) which is a good deal compared to the average costs of roughly $87.00 per hour for onshore vendors or employees.
But either way, the bills add up quick especially when you have a large team, TESO seems to have over 250 people working on it, SWTOR and even the recently failed 38 Studios had more on the payroll.
And like I said, seems like most western MMO's use onshore resources more often than not.
Finally, we need to talk about profit. These games are not labors of love, they are profit making entities and the more profit, the better for the people who sponsor them. They don't care if you think what they make is obscene, they take the risks by investing 100M or so, there's no issue reaping the rewards of their successes, as well as their failures.
Feel free to develop your own 'charity' MMORPG.
MMORPGs recycle assests to an extraordinary degree. Just because it has 5x more "content", doesn't mean it cost 5x as much to make. But if MMORPG prices went up to $90, I'd be okay with that, if it genuinely cost 50% as much to make as a typical $60 game.
As for funding future development... most game companies do so with current box sales. The fact that all other genre of games have had their companies survive through box sales, suggests MMORPGs can do the same. I just fail to see where this additional cost comes from that so desperately requires a sub fee.
I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.
They are literally developing stuff for the sub players with the money they got from the cash shop.
See what I did there?
In that case why have a sub at all?
Any way you slice it, they are double-dipping their profits. If people are fine w/ it, than that's their choice. However, there isn't any real justification for having both. Post-WoW, the industry has shown that cash shops are actually better for generating revenue anyhow.
Hell, I don't see why they couldn't just do the Turbine model tbh. Give people a choice, have an unrestricted game for the sub, or free but limit most of the outfits to the cash shop. Currently they are doing the worst of both.
Post-WOW, all we've really learned is that the WOW model can work. What is the WOW model?
New Trend? Has another mmo asked for a box price and monthly sub, while having a cash shop?
In ftp games that I am aware of, if you sub they give you X amount of their coin.
I do think monthly costs will need to go up. Box prices have. Maybe adding a cash shop is an attempt to avoid asking for an $18 sub. Or maybe its just a money grab.
Tera, Rift, WoW... umm pretty much most all monthly sub games still have cash shops in some shape or form.. well rift isn't really a cash shop per say but you got the mounts you can buy for real money and such so I say it pretty much is
The question I have is whether the current cash shop is just to get people used to the idea. And that the pay to win items are going to be slowly introduced sometime later.
This is of course a valid concern. CCP tried this with the monocle debacle in EVE and that didn't end very well. Hopefully other devs have learned from them.
I'm pretty sure my cash shop bought aviation shades and shirt&tie give me a definite advantage over other players that don't use the cash shop - advantage in looking cool!
The monacle thing was just that it cost so damn much. I forget the number but it was upwards of $50 dollars in plex (an in game item that when used, adds a month to your sub.) At the same time as the item shop roll-out, an internal ccp newsletter was leaked that A. (ENRAGED PLAYER VERSION) Proved ccp was trying to figure out how to add items that affected game-play to the cash shop B. (CCP VERSION) contained an article about how you'd add non-fluff stuff to the cash shop, written as a devil's advocate deal so they could fully look at every side of it.
The monacles are still super expensive, but there have been some great threads by the monacled in the forums that makes it totally worth it.
@Istvaan. So? Whether their cash shops were in at release or not effects what, exactly?
It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.
It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.
Yes, you mean like how Anet forces you to buy GW1 to get HOM rewards and people accept it?
The question I have is whether the current cash shop is just to get people used to the idea. And that the pay to win items are going to be slowly introduced sometime later.
This is of course a valid concern. CCP tried this with the monocle debacle in EVE and that didn't end very well. Hopefully other devs have learned from them.
I'm pretty sure my cash shop bought aviation shades and shirt&tie give me a definite advantage over other players that don't use the cash shop - advantage in looking cool!
The monacle thing was just that it cost so damn much. I forget the number but it was upwards of $50 dollars in plex (an in game item that when used, adds a month to your sub.) At the same time as the item shop roll-out, an internal ccp newsletter was leaked that A. (ENRAGED PLAYER VERSION) Proved ccp was trying to figure out how to add items that affected game-play to the cash shop B. (CCP VERSION) contained an article about how you'd add non-fluff stuff to the cash shop, written as a devil's advocate deal so they could fully look at every side of it.
The monacles are still super expensive, but there have been some great threads by the monacled in the forums that makes it totally worth it.
@Istvaan. So? Whether their cash shops were in at release or not effects what, exactly?
well it obviously effects development time and takes up resources that you are paying for with your 15 bucks a month.
It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.
It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.
Yes, you mean like how Anet forces you to buy GW1 to get HOM rewards and people accept it?
Well i never played guild wars 1 so really their jedi mind trick didn't work on me.
I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.
They are literally developing stuff for the sub players with the money they got from the cash shop.
See what I did there?
In that case why have a sub at all?
Any way you slice it, they are double-dipping their profits. If people are fine w/ it, than that's their choice. However, there isn't any real justification for having both. Post-WoW, the industry has shown that cash shops are actually better for generating revenue anyhow.
Hell, I don't see why they couldn't just do the Turbine model tbh. Give people a choice, have an unrestricted game for the sub, or free but limit most of the outfits to the cash shop. Currently they are doing the worst of both.
They're triple-dipping because it's a new, exciting game and they can.
In time, they will ditch either the box price, sub price or both.
It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.
Yes, you mean like how Anet forces you to buy GW1 to get HOM rewards and people accept it?
Well i never played guild wars 1 so really their jedi mind trick didn't work on me.
Great, it doesn't work on me either, and i hate cash shops in most forms. Mostly in P2P games, a good amount in B2P games, and F2P, well, it depends if it's P2W and other factors.
Serously people, devs trying to get more money? Congrats, welcome to the real world.
It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.
This DID happen 5 years ago. I never had a pitch fork.
I honestly couldn't give the slightest shit about a cash shop that i neither use nor need to use. If the game is worth $15 a month, I'll pay it. If it's not, i'll stop and move on to a game that is.
Seriously.. if you're like me and you think that having a colourful psychedelic t-shirt for your character that does absolutely nothing other than look different is NOT worth paying $5 of real money for.. well... wtf do you care if someone else is able to buy themselves one? They're helping to support YOUR game's development without taking anything from you. Live and let live.
Honestly, I don't want my sub to go towards developing 15 versions of cosmetic pet kittens (that's what the TSW store seems to be selling - there are multiple types of dogs too!) I seriously don't. But if people really like having cosmetic pet kittens and are willing to pay for that separately - more power to them. Actually, I'd love to have a pet leet (leet = cute mob from AO)...but if i think about it, given that only a small percentage of the TSW population even know what a leet is, it's probably NOT a good thing to invest development resources into. Hence, I'd be willing to pay a few bucks extra to get one.
The whole "OMG, i'm insulted by the game having a cash show that i never need to use!" is just stupid. Also, in terms of "i want to demonstrate my refusal to support the model" - as someone that works in marketing, I'll point out that the best way to "demonstrate your refusal" is to actually play the game and buy nothing in the store - if 100% of the people who don't play the game buy nothing in the store, FC doesn't give a shit, whereas if 100% of the people who DO play the game buy nothing, the store gets shut down. But i'm guessing that people don't actually want to demonstrate anything. I'm guessing people just want to have more stuff free. Well, we all do. Given the choice between having to pay for things and having those same exact things for free, I'd take things for free. Unfortunately that's not how the world works.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Comments
I wouldnt even want anything in the cash shop for free let alone pay for it lol so the cash shop dont really bother me too much..
Saying that I think cash shops are stupid evil things that shuold be banned from all computer games.. f2p and cash shops have helped destroy the MMO industry.. of course wow has helped as well..
Thanks for the info, in fact, I've never been to London. I started out in NY and actually have never explored that city outside of the base, much less thought of randomly going to London. I'll have to do some exploring tonight to check it out.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well I for one played mmorpg's so I can rest from my usual work / bills / rl issues stuff.
To turn off and separate from those things for an hour, two or in those rare cases for bit more if I have time.
Mmorpg's used to bring immersion on a level and in a way no book or movie could.
Cash Shop bring direct connection with a real world thus destroying this immersion and this reason I played them.
I have nothing against people spending their money, problem is I don't have OPTION to play in a enviroment with cash shop.
I would be willing to pay 3-5$ bucks / month MORE (higher sub) for an access to separate no cash shop server.
Obviously that would have to mean in TSW that those server would have to have severed ties with other servers that are linked though 'one server technology' - that's an issue for whole other discussion.
TSW is designed from group up with CS in mind.
Since that is not offered then that why I am not happy and just not playing mmorpg's and just play single player games / reading books for my 'calm' leisure time.
It is simply that certain service that people were using is not avabile anymore and that's why they are not content.
Sure many people don't understand that since for them this reasoning is totally alien and don't care about stuff I've written above. Still I am not judging them just offering you one of possible explanations. (there are other diffrent explanations and reasons why some people don't like CS as well, this post is too long already though).
Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.
Welcome to the gaming industry
You are so lucky to get a job here !
Every year, we will reduce your salary,
BUT we'll expect you to produce better quality work (it's 2012, so no excuse for bugs in your code will be accepted)
AND in ever increasing volume (no excuse for a game to launch without masses of content all the way to endgame).
The gaming industry is a magical place. It's the only branch of industry where shareholders will not demand that your annual profits increase so that they get better dividends. Investors will be happy to lend you vast sums of money at great risk. If your game tanks and you cannot pay back the loan, they'll shrug and say: "Aww shucks, better luck next time. We didn't really need that $70M anyway. By the way, how much do you need for the next project ?"
Games are made by people, not machines. Labour cost is the major expense for any software company. Hardware and bandwidth for running an MMO is a relatively small part of the expense, always was.
Maintence, support staff, and bandwidth costs HAVE come down over time, yes. Technology is cheaper, staff have been outsourced to china/india, and bandwidth is pennies now. Things that a sub is "supposed" to pay for have effectively become nearly free. $15/month used to be needed for technology and servers and bandwidth... but that is like 1% of a game's mainenance cost these days.
Game development, and standard customer support.... has always been paid for by box sales. This is how it's worked for every other non-MMORPG game company out there, and it seems to have worked for them.
Ehm, why?
The man hours that are assigned to the shop-servicse are paid by the income from the cash shop. The exclusive shop-cosmetic items and titles would NEVER BE otherwise in the game. It is solely an additional service NOT at the expense of the content for regular subscribers.
REALITY CHECK
This is of course a valid concern. CCP tried this with the monocle debacle in EVE and that didn't end very well. Hopefully other devs have learned from them.
I'm pretty sure my cash shop bought aviation shades and shirt&tie give me a definite advantage over other players that don't use the cash shop - advantage in looking cool!
Well, isn't what this thread is all about ? Stressing on why people don't want to spend their money on the cash shop and have a problem with it ?
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They are literally developing stuff for the sub players with the money they got from the cash shop.
See what I did there?
Non MMO's have like what, 20, 30, maybe 50 hours of content. MMORPG's have anywhere from 100 to perhaps 500 hours of content, so then by your logic in order to pay for their extraordinary development costs a MMORPG should have a box price of like, $250.00?
Since no one will pay that, they expect to recoop some of the development costs (which have jumped from about 10M per title to over 300M if some reports are to be trusted) rewarding those who were willing to risk the investment in the project in the first place.
Another big use of sub fees is to fund not only development of new features in the current game, but also fund the development of the companies future titles, so they don't have to turn to outside investors for funding. CCP is funding two titles, WOD and DUST 514 with the revenues generated from EVE (much to my displeasure, but what can you do?)
It was never about the cost to maintain the servers, that's always a small figure in the overall scheme of things.
And while its true that there is more outsourcing most western MMORPG's seem to keep a much larger portion of their development onshore as opposed to outsourcing it overseas.
And speaking of outsourcing, you have any idea what that really costs? My firm pays an average of $42.00 an hour for contract offshore resources (and we have the economic muscle to really squeeze the prices down from our vendors) which is a good deal compared to the average costs of roughly $87.00 per hour for onshore vendors or employees.
But either way, the bills add up quick especially when you have a large team, TESO seems to have over 250 people working on it, SWTOR and even the recently failed 38 Studios had more on the payroll.
And like I said, seems like most western MMO's use onshore resources more often than not.
Finally, we need to talk about profit. These games are not labors of love, they are profit making entities and the more profit, the better for the people who sponsor them. They don't care if you think what they make is obscene, they take the risks by investing 100M or so, there's no issue reaping the rewards of their successes, as well as their failures.
Feel free to develop your own 'charity' MMORPG.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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In that case why have a sub at all?
Any way you slice it, they are double-dipping their profits. If people are fine w/ it, than that's their choice. However, there isn't any real justification for having both. Post-WoW, the industry has shown that cash shops are actually better for generating revenue anyhow.
Hell, I don't see why they couldn't just do the Turbine model tbh. Give people a choice, have an unrestricted game for the sub, or free but limit most of the outfits to the cash shop. Currently they are doing the worst of both.
i would tend to agree with you. although sub fees also haven't gone up in the last ten years, to account for inflation.
MMORPGs recycle assests to an extraordinary degree. Just because it has 5x more "content", doesn't mean it cost 5x as much to make. But if MMORPG prices went up to $90, I'd be okay with that, if it genuinely cost 50% as much to make as a typical $60 game.
As for funding future development... most game companies do so with current box sales. The fact that all other genre of games have had their companies survive through box sales, suggests MMORPGs can do the same. I just fail to see where this additional cost comes from that so desperately requires a sub fee.
Post-WOW, all we've really learned is that the WOW model can work. What is the WOW model?
$90 box + sub fee + cash shop.
Can't blame others for trying to do the same.
Who gives a shit? The deck outfits are better than anything in the store, so far not a single outfit looks better than the grifter. [mod edit]
rift and wow did not release with a cash shop.
The monacle thing was just that it cost so damn much. I forget the number but it was upwards of $50 dollars in plex (an in game item that when used, adds a month to your sub.) At the same time as the item shop roll-out, an internal ccp newsletter was leaked that A. (ENRAGED PLAYER VERSION) Proved ccp was trying to figure out how to add items that affected game-play to the cash shop B. (CCP VERSION) contained an article about how you'd add non-fluff stuff to the cash shop, written as a devil's advocate deal so they could fully look at every side of it.
The monacles are still super expensive, but there have been some great threads by the monacled in the forums that makes it totally worth it.
@Istvaan. So? Whether their cash shops were in at release or not effects what, exactly?
It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.
Yes, you mean like how Anet forces you to buy GW1 to get HOM rewards and people accept it?
well it obviously effects development time and takes up resources that you are paying for with your 15 bucks a month.
+ 1
Well i never played guild wars 1 so really their jedi mind trick didn't work on me.
They're triple-dipping because it's a new, exciting game and they can.
In time, they will ditch either the box price, sub price or both.
Great, it doesn't work on me either, and i hate cash shops in most forms. Mostly in P2P games, a good amount in B2P games, and F2P, well, it depends if it's P2W and other factors.
Serously people, devs trying to get more money? Congrats, welcome to the real world.
This DID happen 5 years ago. I never had a pitch fork.
I honestly couldn't give the slightest shit about a cash shop that i neither use nor need to use. If the game is worth $15 a month, I'll pay it. If it's not, i'll stop and move on to a game that is.
Seriously.. if you're like me and you think that having a colourful psychedelic t-shirt for your character that does absolutely nothing other than look different is NOT worth paying $5 of real money for.. well... wtf do you care if someone else is able to buy themselves one? They're helping to support YOUR game's development without taking anything from you. Live and let live.
Honestly, I don't want my sub to go towards developing 15 versions of cosmetic pet kittens (that's what the TSW store seems to be selling - there are multiple types of dogs too!) I seriously don't. But if people really like having cosmetic pet kittens and are willing to pay for that separately - more power to them. Actually, I'd love to have a pet leet (leet = cute mob from AO)...but if i think about it, given that only a small percentage of the TSW population even know what a leet is, it's probably NOT a good thing to invest development resources into. Hence, I'd be willing to pay a few bucks extra to get one.
The whole "OMG, i'm insulted by the game having a cash show that i never need to use!" is just stupid. Also, in terms of "i want to demonstrate my refusal to support the model" - as someone that works in marketing, I'll point out that the best way to "demonstrate your refusal" is to actually play the game and buy nothing in the store - if 100% of the people who don't play the game buy nothing in the store, FC doesn't give a shit, whereas if 100% of the people who DO play the game buy nothing, the store gets shut down. But i'm guessing that people don't actually want to demonstrate anything. I'm guessing people just want to have more stuff free. Well, we all do. Given the choice between having to pay for things and having those same exact things for free, I'd take things for free. Unfortunately that's not how the world works.
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