I agree with OP, but us jaded cynics need to point the finger of blame in the right direction. Developers and MMO gamers love their games they did not get us where we are today.
It was the taking over of MMO comapnies by coporates and the influx of teenage gamers that has killed the MMO genre.
I have been told before to look at the money MMO's are making, it is not dead with all that cash, all those players, how could it be? Well today's MMO's are a new genre of game for those who came from single player consoles and drowned out the voices of old PC MMO gamers. So MMO's are dead, easymode MMO's are what we have now.
But the easymode MMO players do not realise that the changes to MMO's do not stop here. 'Gamers' from social networks have arrived and the MMO genre is transforming once more. It is becoming even more easymode, with a emphasis on social networking. Just as control systems got dumbed down for console players, we are now looking at them being dumbed down for tablets and mobile phones. Just as MMO world concept was dumbed down for console players who had not played MMO's before it is being dumbed down now for 'gamers' from social networks who have only played Farmville.
Wecome to MMO's version 1.2: simpler, shorter, solo.
So wait? gamers are teenagers now and weren't teenagers before?? Or are old MMO gamers not considered teenagers even if they played during their teens??
On that note, solo...that sounds more for adults who have lives than for teenagers with lots of time on their hands....
The problem is you have a bunch of pc gamers that have shunned the console. They only have clunky old pc games as their frame of reverence. Now they are getting a taste of games on their pcs that have "jumping puzzles" and omg an active dodge and they are soiling themselves. Meanwhile those of us that have been playing console games for the past 30 years are getting a good chuckle and giving a pat on the head. I'm glad these guys are finally getting a taste of what a lot of us have experienced for decades. But the preachiness of it all makes me roll my eyes and sigh. Its all good though.
So wait? gamers are teenagers now and weren't teenagers before?? Or are old MMO gamers not considered teenagers even if they played during their teens??
Well, if you're talking about Space Invaders as a hardc0re game (pretty dubious). Street Fighter, much too late.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
OP, concerning newer players not experiencing the thrill of an immersive world with a player driven economy, politics, and drama...
I think you really are just looking at the wrong medium. I experience these things daily through a fairly large and active roleplaying community, and it is incredibly immersive, unpredictable, and satisfying. Even a really fantastic sandbox mmo couldn't really compare to written rp with small tabletop elements, because the cost of visual gaming graphics and a "massively multiplayer" customer base, is the limitations required to maintain them.
Im pretty sure theres a shopkeeping game in Steam somewhere..I remember trying out the demo and it was pretty fun!
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
You might not believe this, but I am sure they are a lot more people happy about the directions MMORPG are heading. One of the most common misconceptions is to surround yourself with similar thinking people and spew that BS that developers are not listening to you, but they are, it just they tend to care more about the casual non forum going player than you guys.
If MMORPG are not your cup of tea, you are free to pursue other interest out of MMORPG. But it seem more likely than not maybe you might have just outgrown MMORPGs and you can't seem to admit it to yourself.
You might not believe this, but I am sure they are a lot more people happy about the directions MMORPG are heading. One of the most common misconceptions is to surround yourself with similar thinking people and spew that BS that developers are not listening to you, but they are, it just they tend to care more about the casual non forum going player than you guys.
If MMORPG are not your cup of tea, you are free to pursue other interest out of MMORPG. But it seem more likely than not maybe you might have just outgrown MMORPGs and you can't seem to admit it to yourself.
Yes, if MMOs were the same now (Worlds) your statement would be true... But the games themselves, their depth and mechanics are what have changed- Far more than us Old Guys.
You are right though- The Devs are catering to the Casual P2W audience.
I have hope though in some of the Indies as the Technology cheapens.
Originally posted by BelarionEr Mah Gerd!GW2. Duh!That is all
LMSO thanks for that! I've often wanted to say that to so many people on here! But it is true that GW2 while not a lazy project nor a broken game, doesn't appeal to the so called hard core PVE players because there isn't a gear treadmill, there isn't a monthly fee, there aren't raids to get geared for before doing the same dungeons ad nausium, they aren't forced to be online constantly to do anything they find meaningful (like get gear grind, grind rep), there isn't gear solely from raids they can wear to walk about the major cities and strut making them feel relevant, and finally, there isn't this bloated advantage in pvp where it doesn't matter how skilled or terrible you might be you have macros and gear that gives you an unfair advantage.
Or maybe some of us came into the genre wanting mmos that arent about jumping into action with combat only classes where we hone our leet skillz.
Haha! Couldn't have said it better. I'm currently playing TSW. While I really like the deck/build theorycrafting freedom and some interesting quests I'm finding the rest of the game to be paperthin. While I thought SWTOR was the antithesis of a virtual world I'm starting to think TSW is a close second. Small zones and nothing gives you the feeling that you're actually in a world. It has the console feel down pat. Developer content driven to the nth extent. It's funny everyone bitches about WoW but it's actually more virtual worldy than the latest AAA MMO's released.
I think there is no doubt that devs are going to end up in the lobby heavily instanced MMO game design. Player freedom or non combat things to do be damned.
Sidenote: Did anyone ever know anyone that had a Neo Geo?
I mainly shifted back to single player, FPS, co-op's and the likes about a year and half ago. What's funny is that for years MMMO's were all I played. I missed out on so many good games because of it. So I guess I need to thank all the MMO devs, publishers and shot-callers with little to no creatvity for allowing me to catch up on all the other genres
PRESENT time = 0 interest in any MMORPG or 99% of single player PC games. I happened to go back and try to finish some missed games like FFX, FF12 and pretty much thats about it.
So I must thank the developers and their awesome job for turning one of the most hardcore players on the planet into a game free individual. Thank you so much, without your lack of imagination and lazy work I would be playing something right now than thanking you!
LOL
I concur. I've missed so many console titles playing MMOs pretty constant from 2000 to 2008 that I went back to play the stand out titles and really felt foolish chasing that darn carrot on a stick.
I'm honestly more intrested in Assassin's Creed 3 than even Guild Wars 2, but I'm still hopeful with every year passing by there will be one MMORPG title that comes along and sparks that magic again.
Until that time I'm glad the single player developers have actually grown over the last decade rather than de-evolve like the MMORPG market.
Originally posted by BelarionEr Mah Gerd!GW2. Duh!That is all
LMSO thanks for that! I've often wanted to say that to so many people on here! But it is true that GW2 while not a lazy project nor a broken game, doesn't appeal to the so called hard core PVE players because there isn't a gear treadmill, there isn't a monthly fee, there aren't raids to get geared for before doing the same dungeons ad nausium, they aren't forced to be online constantly to do anything they find meaningful (like get gear grind, grind rep), there isn't gear solely from raids they can wear to walk about the major cities and strut making them feel relevant, and finally, there isn't this bloated advantage in pvp where it doesn't matter how skilled or terrible you might be you have macros and gear that gives you an unfair advantage.
Or maybe some of us came into the genre wanting mmos that arent about jumping into action with combat only classes where we hone our leet skillz.
Haha! Couldn't have said it better. I'm currently playing TSW. While I really like the deck/build theorycrafting freedom and some interesting quests I'm finding the rest of the game to be paperthin. While I thought SWTOR was the antithesis of a virtual world I'm starting to think TSW is a close second. Small zones and nothing gives you the feeling that you're actually in a world. It has the console feel down pat. Developer content driven to the nth extent. It's funny everyone bitches about WoW but it's actually more virtual worldy than the latest AAA MMO's released.
I think there is no doubt that devs are going to end up in the lobby heavily instanced MMO game design. Player freedom or non combat things to do be damned.
Sidenote: Did anyone ever know anyone that had a Neo Geo?
Neo Geo sounds familiar, was it a console of some sort?
I love snails. I love every kinda snail. I just want to hug them all, but I cant. Cant hug every snail.
Out of curiosity, who was considering you, I quote, "one of the most hardcore gamers on the planet"? Just you, your friends, or some official organism?
It's a pretty broad claim, so I'm just curious, because despite being into video games since 30+ years and playing them also daily, I've never heard of you (as "Kopogero" at least).
This is not a flame btw, but since the OP made this broad claim, I'd like to know more
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Originally posted by BadSpock I've been around since UO circa 1999 and I believe the genre is finally getting back on track.
2004 to early 2012 were pretty rough - lots of new games, nothing really "special" after WoW.
There is hope for the future - some bright lights on the horizon, some of us feel that shortly we are finally going to see the dawn.
And those of us that have been console gamers for the past 25 years are getting a strong feeling of dejavu. Im glad this is new for you though. Enjoy.
Have been doing console games for at least 25 years too.
Console games are 1000000x what they used to be.
Infititely more complex and engaging/immersive - generally do to the fact it's really hard to immerse the player with midi sound, 8 bit graphics, and a two button game pad!
Progress is a march forward, not backwards.
We have made progress. The MMO genre has made progress. We've been in a rut for the past 7-8 years... that's what happens when something comes along that redefines the standards.
We are coming out of that rut. I honestly believe that.
Have been doing console games for at least 25 years too.
Console games are 1000000x what they used to be.
Infititely more complex and engaging/immersive - generally do to the fact it's really hard to immerse the player with midi sound, 8 bit graphics, and a two button game pad!
Progress is a march forward, not backwards.
We have made progress. The MMO genre has made progress. We've been in a rut for the past 7-8 years... that's what happens when something comes along that redefines the standards.
We are coming out of that rut. I honestly believe that.
I wish I had your optimism.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Whats funny is I used to play nothing but console games. Then PSO came out and introduced me to online co-op. Then SWG came out and opened up a whole new perspective on gaming for me. Now nearly ten years later, I feel like I'm chasing a ghost, chewing through mmos that resemble the old console games I used to play. The irony is that I am coming full circle playing consoles again. And I'm finding games that more closely capture that classic mmorpg feel than all these new pc mmorpgs.
Your not the only one who feels like you're chasing a ghost. Well said.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Originally posted by BadSpock I've been around since UO circa 1999 and I believe the genre is finally getting back on track.
2004 to early 2012 were pretty rough - lots of new games, nothing really "special" after WoW.
There is hope for the future - some bright lights on the horizon, some of us feel that shortly we are finally going to see the dawn.
And those of us that have been console gamers for the past 25 years are getting a strong feeling of dejavu. Im glad this is new for you though. Enjoy.
Have been doing console games for at least 25 years too.
Console games are 1000000x what they used to be.
Infititely more complex and engaging/immersive - generally do to the fact it's really hard to immerse the player with midi sound, 8 bit graphics, and a two button game pad!
Progress is a march forward, not backwards.
We have made progress. The MMO genre has made progress. We've been in a rut for the past 7-8 years... that's what happens when something comes along that redefines the standards.
We are coming out of that rut. I honestly believe that.
I agree with Spock once again (must be because both Vulcans and Korrigans have pointy ears...). We were stuck in the WoW clone model for 7+ years, with the only games trying to "break the mold" being poor quality games made by crap amateur developers. Now we start to see games which go away from that model and which are made by AAA developers.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Originally posted by BadSpockI've been around since UO circa 1999 and I believe the genre is finally getting back on track.2004 to early 2012 were pretty rough - lots of new games, nothing really "special" after WoW.There is hope for the future - some bright lights on the horizon, some of us feel that shortly we are finally going to see the dawn.
And those of us that have been console gamers for the past 25 years are getting a strong feeling of dejavu. Im glad this is new for you though. Enjoy.
Have been doing console games for at least 25 years too.
Console games are 1000000x what they used to be.
Infititely more complex and engaging/immersive - generally do to the fact it's really hard to immerse the player with midi sound, 8 bit graphics, and a two button game pad!
Progress is a march forward, not backwards.
We have made progress. The MMO genre has made progress. We've been in a rut for the past 7-8 years... that's what happens when something comes along that redefines the standards.
We are coming out of that rut. I honestly believe that.
Sure buddy. You keep telling yourself that
The reality is that we are playing mmo versions of Playstation 2 games. LIke I said, I'm glad that there are people finding this stuff new and refreshing. It broadens their palette. There are genres that I am unfamiliar with that have been around for decades. I bet if I jumped into a really good rts I would be opening a whole new perspective. But I wouldnt have the audacity to herald a new dawn. Id have the sense to realize this is simply new to me, not society as a whole lol.
The reality is that we are playing mmo versions of Playstation 2 games.
Your reality is not everybody else's reality, and even less "the" reality ;-)
As I said, I've been playing video games on various platforms for over 30 years, and comparing MMORPGs to PS2 games is just... nonsense (as in "doesn't make any sense at all").
Actually, I think WoW is a Soulcalibur clone... I mean, both have swords.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Comments
So wait? gamers are teenagers now and weren't teenagers before?? Or are old MMO gamers not considered teenagers even if they played during their teens??
On that note, solo...that sounds more for adults who have lives than for teenagers with lots of time on their hands....
The problem is you have a bunch of pc gamers that have shunned the console. They only have clunky old pc games as their frame of reverence. Now they are getting a taste of games on their pcs that have "jumping puzzles" and omg an active dodge and they are soiling themselves. Meanwhile those of us that have been playing console games for the past 30 years are getting a good chuckle and giving a pat on the head. I'm glad these guys are finally getting a taste of what a lot of us have experienced for decades. But the preachiness of it all makes me roll my eyes and sigh. Its all good though.
Well, if you're talking about Space Invaders as a hardc0re game (pretty dubious). Street Fighter, much too late.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Everything's coming up aces!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Are you famous or something ?
To be, "considered one of the most..." wouldn't essentially everyone have to know you ?
I'm not trying to flame you, I really am curious...who are you, and who considered you one fo the most hardcore gamers on the planet ?
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I think you really are just looking at the wrong medium. I experience these things daily through a fairly large and active roleplaying community, and it is incredibly immersive, unpredictable, and satisfying. Even a really fantastic sandbox mmo couldn't really compare to written rp with small tabletop elements, because the cost of visual gaming graphics and a "massively multiplayer" customer base, is the limitations required to maintain them.
Full Poleshift should change the direction of gaming once blizzard falls into the ocean [tin foil hat off]
Im pretty sure theres a shopkeeping game in Steam somewhere..I remember trying out the demo and it was pretty fun!
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
(")(")
**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
You might not believe this, but I am sure they are a lot more people happy about the directions MMORPG are heading. One of the most common misconceptions is to surround yourself with similar thinking people and spew that BS that developers are not listening to you, but they are, it just they tend to care more about the casual non forum going player than you guys.
If MMORPG are not your cup of tea, you are free to pursue other interest out of MMORPG. But it seem more likely than not maybe you might have just outgrown MMORPGs and you can't seem to admit it to yourself.
Yes, if MMOs were the same now (Worlds) your statement would be true... But the games themselves, their depth and mechanics are what have changed- Far more than us Old Guys.
You are right though- The Devs are catering to the Casual P2W audience.
I have hope though in some of the Indies as the Technology cheapens.
I
Op, you forgot to mention genisis, turbo grafix 16, and the system every hardcore gamer really wanted neo geo.
Neo Geo- God Damn.... Wasnt that like $1000 or something LOL. NOBODY I knew had one but we would drool over the "Arcade Realistic" graphics. LOLZ.
I feel sorry for whoevers Parents bought them that POS- Wasnt there like... 5 games lol.
Asn the Sega Master System pwned the NES. Phantasy Star anyone? The ORIGINAL????
EDIT: In Before SEGA CD or 32X =P
Haha! Couldn't have said it better. I'm currently playing TSW. While I really like the deck/build theorycrafting freedom and some interesting quests I'm finding the rest of the game to be paperthin. While I thought SWTOR was the antithesis of a virtual world I'm starting to think TSW is a close second. Small zones and nothing gives you the feeling that you're actually in a world. It has the console feel down pat. Developer content driven to the nth extent. It's funny everyone bitches about WoW but it's actually more virtual worldy than the latest AAA MMO's released.
I think there is no doubt that devs are going to end up in the lobby heavily instanced MMO game design. Player freedom or non combat things to do be damned.
Sidenote: Did anyone ever know anyone that had a Neo Geo?
Here you go, it's called Receatter:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/70400/
I mainly shifted back to single player, FPS, co-op's and the likes about a year and half ago. What's funny is that for years MMMO's were all I played. I missed out on so many good games because of it. So I guess I need to thank all the MMO devs, publishers and shot-callers with little to no creatvity for allowing me to catch up on all the other genres
LOL
I concur. I've missed so many console titles playing MMOs pretty constant from 2000 to 2008 that I went back to play the stand out titles and really felt foolish chasing that darn carrot on a stick.
I'm honestly more intrested in Assassin's Creed 3 than even Guild Wars 2, but I'm still hopeful with every year passing by there will be one MMORPG title that comes along and sparks that magic again.
Until that time I'm glad the single player developers have actually grown over the last decade rather than de-evolve like the MMORPG market.
a yo ho ho
Neo Geo sounds familiar, was it a console of some sort?
I love snails.
I love every kinda snail.
I just want to hug them all, but I cant.
Cant hug every snail.
I had a Neo Geo
@OP
Out of curiosity, who was considering you, I quote, "one of the most hardcore gamers on the planet"? Just you, your friends, or some official organism?
It's a pretty broad claim, so I'm just curious, because despite being into video games since 30+ years and playing them also daily, I've never heard of you (as "Kopogero" at least).
This is not a flame btw, but since the OP made this broad claim, I'd like to know more
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Probably one of my favorite games I've played in the last 5 years.
A whole game that played like the Dragon Quest shopkeeper hero. (I don't recall if it was 3 or another title hmm...)
a yo ho ho
Have been doing console games for at least 25 years too.
Console games are 1000000x what they used to be.
Infititely more complex and engaging/immersive - generally do to the fact it's really hard to immerse the player with midi sound, 8 bit graphics, and a two button game pad!
Progress is a march forward, not backwards.
We have made progress. The MMO genre has made progress. We've been in a rut for the past 7-8 years... that's what happens when something comes along that redefines the standards.
We are coming out of that rut. I honestly believe that.
I wish I had your optimism.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Your not the only one who feels like you're chasing a ghost. Well said.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I agree with Spock once again (must be because both Vulcans and Korrigans have pointy ears...). We were stuck in the WoW clone model for 7+ years, with the only games trying to "break the mold" being poor quality games made by crap amateur developers. Now we start to see games which go away from that model and which are made by AAA developers.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Sure buddy. You keep telling yourself that
The reality is that we are playing mmo versions of Playstation 2 games. LIke I said, I'm glad that there are people finding this stuff new and refreshing. It broadens their palette. There are genres that I am unfamiliar with that have been around for decades. I bet if I jumped into a really good rts I would be opening a whole new perspective. But I wouldnt have the audacity to herald a new dawn. Id have the sense to realize this is simply new to me, not society as a whole lol.
Your reality is not everybody else's reality, and even less "the" reality ;-)
As I said, I've been playing video games on various platforms for over 30 years, and comparing MMORPGs to PS2 games is just... nonsense (as in "doesn't make any sense at all").
Actually, I think WoW is a Soulcalibur clone... I mean, both have swords.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023