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Are Game Developers Ruining The MMO Experience

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  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Ariannae
    Originally posted by Quirhid

     
    Trinities have been here in the past. -Not- having a trinity in a game has -also- been here. Moving away from something that we currently have, to something we have already had, is not innovative. It is recycling ideas.
     
    Is it -bad-? Right now? Absolutely not in my opinion. But that still doesn't make it innovative. It's just freshly recycled.

    How peculiar. Consider this:

    Hydrogen cells are not innovative because they do not use use fossil fuels, and not using fossil fuels is nothing new.

    I'm pretty sure there's a fault in your logic somewhere.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Ariannae
    Originally posted by Quirhid

     
    Trinities have been here in the past. -Not- having a trinity in a game has -also- been here. Moving away from something that we currently have, to something we have already had, is not innovative. It is recycling ideas.
     
    Is it -bad-? Right now? Absolutely not in my opinion. But that still doesn't make it innovative. It's just freshly recycled.

    How peculiar. Consider this:

    Hydrogen cells are not innovative because they do not use use fossil fuels, and not using fossil fuels is nothing new.

    I'm pretty sure there's a fault in your logic somewhere.

    The technology itself is over 150 years old, so no.

    Like the MMO industry, it's rehashing old techniques and calling it 'innovation'.

     

    On that note - is an Ipad innovative for shoving a bunch of things we've already seen into one object? I say "no".

    ~but putting two objects that don't fit together seamlessly? Genius.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,191Member Uncommon

    It is not the game developers, it is the investors.  They want a return on their money.  They see Wow raking in the cash and want a piece of the action.  They look at Wow's formula and think that is the only way to make money in this business.  So the devs are forced to put together a project plan that is similar.  

    Take a look at SWTOR, intense hand holding, simplistic leveling, no real end game.  Nothing in the game to keep players playing after they have done the nth alt.

    You also have to look at the evolution of the genre.  EQ started the downslide.  It introduced the concept of gear grind with the end game instances.  It introduced the of restricted classes and the holy trinity to the genre, of course a lot of that was taken from D&D.  The point was that EQ really become the first really popular MMO.  It had a far larger playerbase than any of it's competitors. hence the reasoning behind all the copycatting .  Wow was written by a bunch of dissatisfied EQ players who wanted something better.  The original Wow was near as easy as the current version is.

    There is no such thing as the perfect MMO.  The old ones had their flaws just like the new ones.  What was one of the big things in the old MMO's that kept people playing them.  Non instanced housing.  People spent fortunes on houses in UO, SWG, AC, etc.  They had some really amazing decorations that was on the very landscape you played on.  Really how many people zone into housing in those MMO's with instanced housing to look at others houses.  Very very few.

    Another nice thing about the old MMO's, if you did not like your skillset you could change it in UO and SWG.  Personally I think a skill based system rather than a class based system provides far better chance to individualize your avatar.  I was always amazed at the variety of skillsets in AC.  SWG was similar, you could mix and match.

    Every time I see another restricted class based MMO come out that everyone says is innovative I laugh, there is never anything innovative about a class based structure.

     

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Ariannae
    Originally posted by Quirhid

     
    Trinities have been here in the past. -Not- having a trinity in a game has -also- been here. Moving away from something that we currently have, to something we have already had, is not innovative. It is recycling ideas.
     
    Is it -bad-? Right now? Absolutely not in my opinion. But that still doesn't make it innovative. It's just freshly recycled.

    How peculiar. Consider this:

    Hydrogen cells are not innovative because they do not use use fossil fuels, and not using fossil fuels is nothing new.

    I'm pretty sure there's a fault in your logic somewhere.

    The technology itself is over 150 years old, so no.

    Like the MMO industry, it's rehashing old techniques and calling it 'innovation'.

    [...]

    Way to miss the point.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by GTwander

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    Using trinity is not innovative because it has been the dominant mechanic for years. However according Ariannae's logic not using trinity is not innovative either.

    See the fault yet? You are uninnovative if you both use trinity or you don't. If trinity has no part in game being innovative or not, you cannot call a game uninnovative on that basis.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by GTwander

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    Using trinity is not innovative because it has been the dominant mechanic for years. However according Ariannae's logic not using trinity is not innovative either.

    See the fault yet? You are uninnovative if you both use trinity or you don't. If trinity has no part in game being innovative or not, you cannot call a game uninnovative on that basis.

    Yep, because it's a trend, like fashion.

    Not innovative, just cycling back to an old fad in order to alleviate an overused current one.

     

    ~If they wanna do something innovative, they should try something that hasn't been done yet. I will admit that some aspects of combat mechanics fall into that line, like GW2's weapon = hotslots getup, but the idea of not having a trinity itself has nothing to do with it.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Yep, because it's a trend, like fashion.

    Not innovative, just cycling back to an old fad in order to alleviate an overused current one.

     

    ~If they wanna do something innovative, they should try something that hasn't been done yet. I will admit that some aspects of combat mechanics fall into that line, like GW2's weapon = hotslots getup, but the idea of not having a trinity itself has nothing to do with it.

    So you're happy with the "damned if you do damned if you don't "-logic?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Hahaahahaha.

    That's the essence of game theory when you consider player psychology. Pretty much everything falls under that, because you can't please everyone, and anything you do within the scope of a game can be both detrimental AND complimentary. Risk management is more important than lofty design.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by GTwander

    Hahaahahaha.

    That's the essence of game theory when you consider player psychology. Pretty much everything falls under that, because you can't please everyone, and anything you do within the scope of a game can be both detrimental AND complimentary. Risk management is more important than lofty design.

    ...

    Whats with the red herrings? Someone else help me please.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    "Damned if you do and damned if you don't" had nothing to do with whether something is innovative or not, and everything to do with game design itself.

    [mod edit]

     

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Think there's some drinking going on in here?  Can I have one?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    I disagree. I think players are ruining the experience.

    If players did not want what is offered to them, then devs would be scrambling to find what players DO want. It seems devs have found what most players want. They must have because players flock to the new games and spend loads of cash for them.

    Many players complain and moan about today's games. Many players support these new games with their money. Why would devs create something different? The current formula is working great for them.

    ^^this^^ that's why i am no longer buying EA games (not even the single player games from EA) and since the WOTLK i quit giving money to the mmo from blizz too.

    No money for TSW either......the only ones i bought in the last months is D3 (because i like a good hack and slash to kill time) and GW2 (mostly because its free, it didnt change gaming at all but they took questing to the next lvl and i love it).

    But most people still pay for crappy games, will they ever learn......time will tell.

     

    image
  • ShariestShariest VarkausPosts: 44Member

    There hasn't been that much change in the last 10-15 years... The biggest movies and games are sequals, or are based on some god knows how old concept (see all the superhero movies?,TSW etc...) and the makers... Still most watched are Simpsons, Disney & Pixar. Consoles are still from Sony, M$, Nintendo with no ambitious competitor in sight.

    When i watch at the range 2000-2010 only things i see originals i can't trust,because of human minds bad way of sugar coating everything in your youngest age -_-' (Born -95) 

    I Agree on the need of young blood. But strongly DISAGREE on pinning all the fault to the developers.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

    Rather it be movies, music or games..  Eye Candy + Hype = PROFIT....... Simple but true...... Sadly

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by oubers

    But most people still pay for crappy games, will they ever learn......time will tell.

    If only all the other players made the same smart decisions I do.

    Damn them for being different people with different ideas.  Damn them.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • rdrakkenrdrakken Gotham, FLPosts: 426Member
    Originally posted by Badnesso
    I feel like Movies, products, services etc.. Have begun taking a downward spiral sense around 1998. And not to long after mmo's joined in. All developers care about these days is money just like the rest of the world. I can't find a single mmo where I can't buy gear or advance by spending money. If that's not bad enough there's constantly an arrow pointing to where I need to go zone by zone it's like one huge race to max out your character, only to buy the next expansion and start all over. Mmo's used to target adult and teens I'm guessing they made mmo's to toned down and easy these days is for children 6-13 and the $$$ subscriptions just weren't enough cash flow for their greed. Cause we all know children spend money With no concept of its value.

     Corrected that for you.

    Raph Koster started doing it with Ultima Online, even went so far as to blame those under him for the downturn of his games...with all 3 MMOs he was in charge of and to this day continually states at the Game Developers Conferences that game makers have to understand that its their job to tell gamers what they do or do not like while still somehow push the idea that games should be open for gamers to create content...durp.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by Ariannae

    Pro-tip; There is not a chance in hell that Blizzard would be even a fraction of the company they currently are if they had released their past few titles with the playerbase that they had during the time of Diablo 1/Warcraft II/ Starcraft. [mod edit]

    That's because people used to make games THEY wanted to play.

    Now they make ones that "market research leans towards"... but in a way, they are right - because the major demographic they are hitting will eat shit with a smile.

    Why would i care what devs want to play? I want them to make games that *I* want to play. If "market research" is how they find out what *I* want to play, so much the better.

     

  • TrikkeTrikke Jackson, MIPosts: 90Member

    Its the players that ruin the mmo's 99.9 percent of the time.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Game developers do what their masters, the executives who run gaming software houses tell them to do. The minds of execs are full of projected population levels, pie charts breaking down play usage time and so on. They are not full of great stories and innovative play. Execs minds are focusing on making a MMO that is a cash cow, not a virtual brave new world.

    So stop blaming the devs, they don't call the shots.

  • ShariestShariest VarkausPosts: 44Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by Ariannae

    Pro-tip; There is not a chance in hell that Blizzard would be even a fraction of the company they currently are if they had released their past few titles with the playerbase that they had during the time of Diablo 1/Warcraft II/ Starcraft. [mod edit]

    That's because people used to make games THEY wanted to play.

    Now they make ones that "market research leans towards"... but in a way, they are right - because the major demographic they are hitting will eat shit with a smile.

    Why would i care what devs want to play? I want them to make games that *I* want to play. If "market research" is how they find out what *I* want to play, so much the better.

     

    Because when devs make game that *They* wan't to play they give it a 110%!  I can't believe that you'd rather play a game that has been made just because *You* wanted it, rather than a game that has been made with effort. The Dev's don't make the games for *You* they make them for *US*!

    Edit2:Ofc...The Devs work under exe's, as mentioned above... One day ill make a comment without anything needing to be edited :D

  • Swollen_BeefSwollen_Beef Tampa, FLPosts: 200Member

    To answer OP's question:

     

     

    No, Money is ruining the MMO experience.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Badnesso
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    Well, money pays the bills and keeps food on the table. I'd say that if you where in the same position, you'd choose money over making some random people on the internet happy with a virtual world. Oh, and even if devs want to do it, the production cash doesn't come from them. It coms from suits which feel that way.

    Don't get me wrong, i would love for companies to improve the genre, but that's no going to happen.

     

    And that's what the American economy is coming to in a nutshell...lol

    There has been a shift in American businesses over the past few decades from being run by engineers, scientists and mathematicians to being run by MBA's.  Quality has been sacrificed to keep costs down to stay competitive in a global market.  The masses have trouble seeing past the end of their own nose.  They would rather buy some piece of junk that will break in two months because it saves them money in the short term.

    Maybe one day the imbecile MBA's in charge will realize that there is a market for quality goods.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • Swollen_BeefSwollen_Beef Tampa, FLPosts: 200Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by Ariannae

    Pro-tip; There is not a chance in hell that Blizzard would be even a fraction of the company they currently are if they had released their past few titles with the playerbase that they had during the time of Diablo 1/Warcraft II/ Starcraft. They would have fallen into a black abyss and been forgotten by the gaming world simply because the playerbase back then didn't buy into garbage on a plate.

    That's because people used to make games THEY wanted to play.

    Now they make ones that "market research leans towards"... but in a way, they are right - because the major demographic they are hitting will eat shit with a smile.

    Why would i care what devs want to play? I want them to make games that *I* want to play. If "market research" is how they find out what *I* want to play, so much the better.

     

    There you have it folks. This generation's attitude summed up in just 3 simple sentences.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Shariest
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by Ariannae

    Pro-tip; There is not a chance in hell that Blizzard would be even a fraction of the company they currently are if they had released their past few titles with the playerbase that they had during the time of Diablo 1/Warcraft II/ Starcraft. They would have fallen into a black abyss and been forgotten by the gaming world simply because the playerbase back then didn't buy into garbage on a plate.

    That's because people used to make games THEY wanted to play.

    Now they make ones that "market research leans towards"... but in a way, they are right - because the major demographic they are hitting will eat shit with a smile.

    Why would i care what devs want to play? I want them to make games that *I* want to play. If "market research" is how they find out what *I* want to play, so much the better.

     

    Because when devs make game that *They* wan't to play they give it a 110%!  I can't believe that you'd rather play a game that has been made just because *You* wanted it, rather than a game that has been made with effort. The Dev's don't make the games for *You* they make them for *US*!

    Edit2:Ofc...The Devs work under exe's, as mentioned above... One day ill make a comment without anything needing to be edited :D

    I don't care about effort. I care about the end result.

    A boring game (to me) is still boring if the devs put in 120%.

    A fun game is still fun if the devs put in 90%. I would rather play a game that is fun to me. That is the ONLY measure that matters.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Poison_Adele
     
    [mod edit]

     It seems you don't get the points many of us old school players seem to talk about.

    You seem unable to understand that there are people who want a more virtual world aka as what we had instead of what we have now. We do know about all the bugsback then or other game related issue's, does it make us wrong to want most of what we had but then fairly bugfree and minus the issue's from back then?

    Where are the 32 classes?, where are all the none-combat professions.

    I for one enjoy all sorts of genre's in gaming, yet MMORPG is the only genre that isn't able to satisfied my needs.

    I personaly just feel that this genre has become incredible limited compared to games of the old style MMORPG. You might say there are some indie developers or already with released games or in development, but can't you understand that due to our age within gaming that we also want a AAA title to be more virtual world like then the simple online co-op games that MMORPG's have become?

    [mod edit]

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