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rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Originally posted by helthros So instead of a gear treadmill, GW2 has a skill points treadmill? You're honestly going with that as being an improvement over chasing gear? Point of the matter is: If there's nothing to stop people from progressing through the content, they will chew through it in a matter of days. Then you're left with a boatload of upset customers that will drop the game on the turn of a dime.
As a matter of fact, yes. I will go with that as being an improvement, for some people's tastes. Some people want to always be more powerful, and be rewarded by being more powerful than people who can't sink literally months of their time into a game...
... I don't HAVE that sort of time, so I'd rather have access to all sorts of content at any given point in time... be able to hop in when an expansion comes in, not worry about gearing up to be able to play with people...
... and people who play a metric shitton and trade in their skill points for weapons, well, they can look cooler and at least have a visual representation of their time spent.
Or you could just make the content difficult and require practice. People don't blow through chess in a couple days (Well, okay, I know about castling now, I guess I'mt otally done with this game) and then all leave.... well, some do, but hey. Different people have different tastes and desires. I understand your tastes are different from mine, the part I'm confused on is the part where you're apparently incapable of understanding my tastes are different from yours. Do you think I, and other people like me, think exactly like you, and we're acting otherwise just to SPITE you?
Some people want gear treadmill, some people don't. It's not anything complicated or confusing.
You talk about people quitting because they burn through the content (Even though there's tons of cosmetic content and titles and the like for people to chase)... well, there's lots of people who quit MMORPGs because the gear treadmill is disgusting to them. No matter what design decision you choose to chase, there are going to be people who don't like it. 'Some people will quit because of this' is not really a very useful comment. There's some people who quit playing FPSs because first person view makes them motion sick. Does that mean all FPSs should switch and be third person instead? :T
Originally posted by azmundai Originally posted by GosuRusha510 What's the point of doing instances at low level and at 80 over and over, if gear doesn't matter?
I don't know. I haven't played the game yet.
However the idea of an alternative to a gear grind is fine with me. I don't mind grinding gear so much, as long as I can find a few people that I enjoy playing with .. but i'm also not opposed to there being something else, instead of a gear grind.
Will it have enough to justify not having a gear grind? I sincerely hope so, but I also highly doubt it.
Vanilla wow was the first real grinding I did. I played UO and EQ, but not enough to really do any raiding. That being said the problem with newWoW and every other game that has tried to copy it, is that they continue to make things like the gear grind trivial, but don't replace the time you spent grinding that gear with anything. SWTOR is the prime example of it. 1-2 months of content != subscription based MMO.
I dont know why people hate gear grinding. Tiered instances provide a goal for the group to work together towards. Guess the solo mentality has completely eclipsed the genre at this point. These games put me to sleep after 20 minutes now. Nothing meaningful to work towards. No reason to care after the OooOoH Shiny New Game syndrome has died.
Worked great in GW1.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Originally posted by helthros Originally posted by Bladestrom Repeating the same bossss for months on end can be ok, but wouldn't it be better to have lot of other content to do at the same time?
You don't think they could release all the bosses at the same time? They'll chew through the bosses in weeks or days even, then what?
It's unrealistic to think that programmers can crank out enough content to satisfy the insatiable thirst gamers have for PvE content without some sort of limitations.
I don't normally say this, but this is probably not the game for you, and you should probably not play it. This is a very difficult thing to explain, and no matter how many people manage to do so, people still don't seem to understand. So, I'll try one more time.
GW2 is not about a treadmill, or a grind, period. Can you play it that way? Absolutely; but the game is not designed around it. And that is a key difference. Most MMOs are.
Think about this for a minute. You can, essentially, grind or power through any form of content. However people generally don't do this for all forms of media. You could speed through most MMOs, without feeling like you've missed much, true. But could you say the same about speeding through a game like zelda, or uncharted, or mass effect? You could speed through reading a book. However you are probably going to skim over a lot of details that may be important. The reason being that these other games and media generally have multiple layers of content and detail on which to experience.
Can you play this game like every other MMO that you're supposedly sick of, and grind boss after boss? Yes, yes you can. However the assumption here is that you have to, and you don't. There is way more to this game than boss farming. If you choose to ignore all that, then fine, but it's not the game's doing.
So what is 'endgame' for this game? I know most people think of this as a 'buzz word', but it really is 'the game'. Once you hit max lvl (80), the entire game is opened up to you. You are free to experience every part of the game, regardless of lvl. You also are rewarded for all content, in a manner that scales up to your current lvl.
- If you only care about getting the coolest looking armor and gear. Yes, you will be running dungeons. This doesn't give you any advantage, but it will make your character stand out from other characters. Especially if you start mix & matching pieces of armor from different sets.
- If you want to explore, there is quite a massive world in which to do this in. You can uncover hidden treasures, puzzles, map completions, dynamic events, etc.
- If you want to craft, you can search for the rarer materials, and experiment with them to see what new recipes you can unlock
- If you want to play mini-games, theres tons of these scattered around the world
- If you want to PvP, you have sPvP and WvW to partake in
- You have meta events to experience / trigger. Large open world bosses.
- If you like lore. There are a lot of hidden lore pieces all around the world. People to talk to, places to discover, etc.
Point being is you have a lot of options. Far more than most MMOs. If you choose to ignore all the options to focus on just 1, then again, that's not really the game's fault. That's how you personally are choosing to view it.
People will burn through the content of this game, I have no doubt about that. People always do. However it's going to take a lot longer with this one than with other games. It took people about a month to burn through TOR, and about a week to burn through TSW. This game has more content than both combined. Not to mention, a lot of the content in this game changes quite a bit. You're first experience with an event can be dramatically different from the 2nd time you experience it, depending on a list of different factors. And on top of this, Anet will be cycling out events and swapping in new ones throughout the game's lifespan.
Originally posted by GosuRusha510 What's the point of doing instances at low level and at 80 over and over, if gear doesn't matter?
gear dont suposed to be matter ,it give advantage to other and having advantage is not the point of a susessfull game other than balance,in mi opinion some 1 dont suposed to be betetr than me just cause they dont have a job and sped 16 hour straigh playing .
gw2 change that and its the way game suposed to be Fun ,balance and no subs ,why pay to have fun and play agame righ?.
Uh, it's a game. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, you should probably play a different game. If you don't enjoy any game, you should probably find a different leisure pastime.
Gear matters while youre leveling from 1 - 80, but once you reach 80 the power level of gear platues.
So if Gear Power, rather than Aesthetics matters to you, GW2 is not the game for you.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
Originally posted by heartless Originally posted by GosuRusha510 What's the point of doing instances at low level and at 80 over and over, if gear doesn't matter?
What's the point of playing video games over and over if none of your in-game accomplishments matter in real life?
Great answer and question lol
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there, 80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters. Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior, and he will bring the others home. -Heraclitus 500BC
Or you could perfect that look in The Secret World and the gear doesn't affect that look at all. /shrug
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by helthros Originally posted by Bladestrom Repeating the same bossss for months on end can be ok, but wouldn't it be better to have lot of other content to do at the same time?
Holy Crap!!! Well said.
Originally posted by GosuRusha510 How is that fun? with no rewards?....what ever happen to risk and reward?
The only risks you encounter while playing video games are carpal tunnel, eye strain, and a sedentary lifestyle.
Originally posted by Rusque Originally posted by GosuRusha510 How is that fun? with no rewards?....what ever happen to risk and reward?
The game does have risk vs. reward, it's just not based off of a gear grind.
- Harder dungeons, played in harder modes (explorable mode) offer the most exclusive items (gear / weapon skins)
- Gambling, mystic forge in LA yields you random loot depending on what you put in, but can yield some really cool results
- sPvP (there could be an entire new thread on this example, but lets just say it's a complex system of risk & reward)
- WvW (same as with sPvP, the harder keeps to take offer the best rewards both in terms of score, but also map control, etc.)
- Meta Events / Large Dynaic Events (really nice rewards for completing this, but if you fail, you've just lost a large chunk of the map)
Risk vs. Reward can exist (and should) within games, but that doesn't mean it needs to be a skinner box model.
Originally posted by xenogias Originally posted by GosuRusha510 What's the point of doing instances at low level and at 80 over and over, if gear doesn't matter?
To have fun. Its as simple as that. They realise not everyone has fun unless there is a shiney reward at the end and they dont care. If the game is well done and well developed alot of people will have fun. Not everyone will though and thats fine. The carrot on a stick gear grinds are all over the place. Not every game has to have it.
well the problem is, not everybody relate to the same thing as being FUN. Fun is subjective. the Rewards are not ubjective, which is why all people can relate to it regardless of how Fun it is for them.
Originally posted by GosuRusha510What's the point of doing instances at low level and at 80 over and over, if gear doesn't matter?
The point is you DON'T do them over and over for gear, you do them when you want for fun.
Because when you put in work you want to be rewarded for it.
Hint Hint......GW2 is not a job. Its not work. Playing and having fun is the reward in and of itself.
Every good game has to have a hook that keeps people playing, otherwise it's like playing baseball without keeping score.
The question is whether or not appearance gear is a decent enough hook to keep people playing GW2 when they hit the level cap.
This kind of thinking comes from us being trained in MMOs for years to think that we are having fun by doing something that is not fun...and then being rewarded for it.
Which is something I'd like to leave at the workplace if possible.
I was able to have fun in mario bros and played levels many times without needing to grind goombas for 25,000 stomps in order to get a better hat.
Nor did I feel that we needed to do weekly guild raids on koopa castle for a 10% chance that bowser would drop a better Yoshi with longer tongue range.
Lets imagine someone that has never played WOW and decide to play it today. Despite all the content that they added trough out the years he will probably never try most of the dungeon and raid from vanilla wow , burning crusade etc. The only really relevant content is cataclysm. Now let's say that they make so that at level 85 you can go back to those dungeon and it downscale you to the level of the dungeon and your gear is switched to gear of that level so that its still challenging. Then the reward from doing those dungeon are similar to doing Heroic from cataclysm(giving you token or something). It would probably be a good occasion for that player to go back and try those dungeon instead of farming the same few dungeon again and again. It would Immerse that player into the lore , it would be less repetitive and the game would seams a lot bigger and interesting for that player.
That is what GW2 is trying to do. Keep EVERY part of the game pertinent and let the player chose what is fun to do for them.
Originally posted by SuperXero89 Every good game has to have a hook that keeps people playing, otherwise it's like playing baseball without keeping score. The question is whether or not appearance gear is a decent enough hook to keep people playing GW2 when they hit the level cap.
^ sorry but that is not true.
my girlfriend and I play tennis almost daily and we do not keep scores at all. why do we play? we play simply for the fun of it, and if we have goals it is simply to improve our skill.
this relates very well to video games. if one plays content as a means to an end then are we trully enjoying that content? obvious answer is no. something we do as a means to an end is considered a job. sadly most of us have had that feeling with video games "this is starting to feel like a job" and that is exactly what a 'hobby' should not be. hell if we were professional gamers i could understand the need to be ahead of the curve, but we are not pros.
why can we not play a game where we advance in personal skill rather than artificial skill (bloated stats on gear)? simply, we can! many single player games provide this, and it is time for an MMO to do so as well.
a good game does not need a "hook" the game itself should be the hook, that is what we can consider good. taking advantage of our ego (artificial rewards, such as those achievements we get for /dancing) does not make a game good, it makes it a gimmick.
i'm not a GW2 fan (could not get into GW1), but this game is opening a different type of MMO, an mmo for those of us who do not have time/desire to be treated as labrats finding the cheese at the end of a maze, just to see it is nothing but smell.
recap: when something is fun people do not needa 'hook' because the action in itself is the hook.
for the challange it gives you? Atleast that's why I'll be playing the most dungeons for, and ofc there's always PVP which I'll abuse
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."-------------------------------
For me the point is, despite gear differences as you find in other mmo's, by playing WvWvW or crafting, your character continues to advance in level. You don't just have to PVE to advance your character, going out to kill "X" number of things to advance to the next level.
Just ask Riot games how much players love to look cool.