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Originally posted by Naqaj Just stumbled upon this, and thought it's kind of relevant to this topic: http://www.darklegacycomics.com/346.html
That was great.
Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Naqaj Just stumbled upon this, and thought it's kind of relevant to this topic: http://www.darklegacycomics.com/346.html
I feel that we're all pointless twins.
I mean if we want to get extremely existential for a moment; it's all wasting time playing a video game. The carrot on the stick comes in a variety of forms.
a yo ho ho
Originally posted by FredomSekerZ Does anybody play video games to have fun? For example, i play FPS'ers because i like the fast paced adrenaline pumping action. Maybe that's just me.
Thats what I do. In Skyrim I will put myself in my characters shoes stalking my prey, picking off his friends and hiding their bodies one by one. Sometimes I will play my character as a serial killer and leave behind something like an iron dagger at each crime scene. Or try to get into the mood of a warlord conquring the known world in Shogun 2, focus on a particular unit and think of him as the character for each battles story. Is it dorky and pointless? Sure, but its how I have fun in the game. Sometimes I dont bother getting into the character though and I will just have a character in Skyrim start slaughtering everyone in a whatever hold im in playing Yaxty Sax.
Originally posted by Poison_Adele Minor correction, B2P *has* been proven to be profitable for an MMO, just look at Guild Wars 1. Sure, they turned to the cash shop eventually, but it's run longer than most subscription MMORPGs.
Yeah, Ive been playing GW1 for going on seven years now. I didn't mention it for a couple of reasons:
1) the inevitable, "GW isn't an MMO," posts.
2) One example doesn't really prove anything. If it did we would have proof that a box price and sub fee will result in 10-12 million subscribers due to WoW's one example.
I did mistakenly say, "for an MMO," when I should have said, "for MMOs."
My apologies for the lack of clarity.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Originally posted by GosuRusha510 How is that fun? with no rewards?....what ever happen to risk and reward?
MMOers are so stuck on the gear treadmill they dont even know they are not having fun any more. So you play content to get more powerful to be able to get to harder content to get more powerfull to go do harder content to get more powerfull. Why not play content for the fun of it? Why do you play any video game other then a MMO? To get gear or see and play the game? GW2 is bringing back just playing the game to have fun.
=-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums.
Having fun is very subjective matter. It is retarded to even argue that just because you remove the ability to improve your character with gear suddendly make its all fun.
Here is a good article about the rewards in general (psychology):
Intrinsically motivated athletes participate in sport for internal reasons, particularly pure enjoyment and satisfaction, and intrinsically motivated athletes typically concentrate on skill improvement and growth.
Extrinsic motivation may come from social sources, such as not wanting to disappoint a parent, or material rewards, such as trophies and college scholarships. Extrinsically motivated athletes tend to focus on the competitive or performance outcome. An over-emphasis on extrinsic motivation may lead athletes to feel like their behavior is controlled by the extrinsic rewards. On the other hand, athletes may continue to feel like they control their own behavior even with the presence of extrinsic rewards. These two major types of extrinsic motivation are highlighted here.
Note: Click the title to read the full article. It relates to sports, but is applicable here.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Originally posted by helthros lol I see all this hubris about how having fun just for the sake of having fun is above and beyond doing things to get gear. However, I'm forced to ask myself, how does attaining gear limit the individuals with this seemingly misplaced hubris from having fun in games where getting gear is a potential reward? It seems like a load of BS if you ask me. If it's about having fun to have fun, then shoudln't attaining the gear be completely beneath you? Yet most find the energy and time to complain about "needing" to obtain the gear. Well, what about "needing" to repeat content just for the sake of having fun? Can't you still do that in games with gear treadmills? Again, seems like a load of BS.
There is a big difference actually. The gameplay we have currently in MMOs is dated. So dated, infact, that every single "complex" boss fight is simply about killing things in the right order and moving out or into things on the ground. These are not very fun mechanics and GW2 has shot a steady dose of good gameplay into there game. Yeah sure, getting rewards can be fun, but it is only fun if you enjoy the game as a whole. Progression on the other hand -- is more about just making your character stronger so that he or she can do things that they cannot normally. This is not a particularly "fun" mechanic, but yes I agree it can affect how much someone enjoys a game.
The problem is that this system is inheretely flawed because it limits the player to only seeing the content he or she has time to farm for hours on end to get to. The "fun" in modern MMOs comes more from the community,friends, and guild you are playing with. Not so much the gameplay. You ask almost anyone playing WoW right now if they play it for the game and for the "farm the same raid for months". I could bet money that they would say the reason they play is because that is where there friends are. The social experience in MMOs is king and that is why a game like WoW is so big. Nothing to do with the gear treadmill.
Think about this a minute: The social experience. How do you have this experience? Playing with your friends. What if one of your friends is behind in progression and cannot catch up? You can't play with them. See where I am going with this?
People don't play MMOs for gear progression. They play them to experience a world that is not of there own and be someone else for a little while. Part of that is the social experience associated with them. This social experience is nurtured and pampered by ArenaNet with GW2. This is something most of the original people who started playing MMOs back in the UO/EQ/AC days already know. The post-WoW-era players are just not conditioned the same way.
Fact is that wanting to progress can also be the same thing as wanting to be known for having cool stuff. This can still be accomplished in GW2. ArenaNet has a very talented team of artists that have created a varied set of equipment that looks simply astounding. Most people playing MMOs don't look at stats, they look at the item itself, this shows the work put into that particular item. You can still get that really sick armor that no one else has or even a legendary weapon. Yeah, you can look like a total badass. I promise it is the same thing as having a statistical advantage over someone in a battleground.
If you like doing the same dungeon over and over for specific items in WoW/Rift/SWTOR/ect you will like it just as much here. I promise. The main difference here is that you won't feel like you have to do it to keep up with everyone else.
the reward is not as much as the stat but the look of a specific gear/equipment/item. GW has always been about looks than stats.
Originally posted by Celcius Originally posted by helthros lol I see all this hubris about how having fun just for the sake of having fun is above and beyond doing things to get gear. However, I'm forced to ask myself, how does attaining gear limit the individuals with this seemingly misplaced hubris from having fun in games where getting gear is a potential reward? It seems like a load of BS if you ask me. If it's about having fun to have fun, then shoudln't attaining the gear be completely beneath you? Yet most find the energy and time to complain about "needing" to obtain the gear. Well, what about "needing" to repeat content just for the sake of having fun? Can't you still do that in games with gear treadmills? Again, seems like a load of BS.
The problem I have with this whole "play to have fun" paradigm is that it ignores a few simple concepts of basic MMO gameplay. You NEED to have some sort of tiered action. Why? Well, why bother having levels in the first place then? Accepting levels in GW2 means you understand that it can't just be about logging in and "doing things for fun". There has to be a progression.
Now, what about when you're 80 and you have all of the 'end-game' content available to you? Having gear tiered limits allows for programmers to make content challenging for the elitist individuals while progressively breaking down the entry-barriers to allow more casual gamers to take part. You have things like badge-gear as a crutch to help out the individuals who simply can't commit to farming these raids and such over and over again.
But, in a game like GW2, what's stopping someone from blowing through all the content within a matter of days?
You people seem to have this unrealistic grudge vs gaming companies developing games with gear treadmills, but you seem to forget that the issue isn't the people providing it, it's the individuals consuming it. In gear treadmill games it's about getting better gear so your character performs better. In GW2 it's about looking better and appearing like a bad ass?
Call me old fashion, but at a young age I learned that function > fashion. I'll take being motivated by performing better over being completely vain any day of the week. You can claim that running instances to look better is indicative of higher morals all you want, but I beg differ.
For me, I prefer the risk vs reward of full-loot games. For example EVE Online, sure you can gear treadmill it up and have the baddest stuff, but you better be prepared to lose it since there is simply no place truly safe from PvP other than docked in a station.
The MUD I grew up playing had full-loot PvP where even the cities weren't safe. The best items were 1 of a kind, so if you wanted that super bad-ass sword, you had to take it from whoever had it at the time, but then you better know that it would paint a huge target on your back.
Originally posted by helthros Originally posted by Celcius Originally posted by helthros lol I see all this hubris about how having fun just for the sake of having fun is above and beyond doing things to get gear. However, I'm forced to ask myself, how does attaining gear limit the individuals with this seemingly misplaced hubris from having fun in games where getting gear is a potential reward? It seems like a load of BS if you ask me. If it's about having fun to have fun, then shoudln't attaining the gear be completely beneath you? Yet most find the energy and time to complain about "needing" to obtain the gear. Well, what about "needing" to repeat content just for the sake of having fun? Can't you still do that in games with gear treadmills? Again, seems like a load of BS.
Its called lateral progression, tiered is vertical. The benefits of horizonal v Tiered is well established (Eve/GW 1 to name 2)
you cant because there is not a single vertical path. You are mistaking rushing to 80, i.e vertical progress - rushing to pinacle.
Beating someone because you have an extra +250 crit is not allways due to skill, beating someone because you have a wider set of skills and use them in a skillful way is.
You are still talking about vertical progress. you have 2 choices:
1. tiered - repeat the last set if tier bosses for 6 month blocks, you have out geared most other content.
2. horizontal, you have those bosses but more importantly you have not out geared 95% of the game content - so you can progress byt playing any content in the game.
Eve has latteral progression you know full loot is a different topic.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Originally posted by Bladestrom Originally posted by helthros Originally posted by Celcius
What did this have to do with anything I said? Also, having a wider set of skills means you beat someone in a skillful way?? Oh really... Stop pulling hairs for the sake of argument, it looks silly and trite. I don't recall even talking about PvP.
If it's really about being able to re-do content and having it remain challenging, there's nothing stopping you from using older gear. There's nothing stopping you from using sub-optimal builds. There's nothing stopping you from using less teammates to keep it interesting.
What progress? That just means that you blow through the content in a matter of days. Then you're left with the option of repeating them not for function, but for fashion? Being vain is better than seeking improved performance? I can't say I agree with you on that one.
I'm really curious how you got your reasoning there. EVE isn't exactly the best example since it's primarily a PvP game. However, it can take a considerable amount of time to be capable of soloing a 10/10 plex. It can take a bit of time to be able to solo a sanctum or a haven. It can take a considerable amount of time to fly in most of the popular fleets that coalitions use (tengu, ahacs, black ops etc). Don't even get me started on cap fleets... Again, I'm really curious as to your reasoning behind that one. EVE, unlike most games, actually takes hard real-life time to progress.
Originally posted by terrant Originally posted by GosuRusha510 So your telling I can take my lvl 1 gear to 80 and not change a thing? How does that make sense? Enlighten me please.
OK, lemme try to clear some things up for you.
1) You can go to any zone or dungeon your level or lower and gain meaningful xp, gold, and loot. That means you can go help a friend roll a new toon, explore zone starter zone you've never been to before, get exploration achievements...and still get something meaningful out of it.
2) While gear doesn't OWN the game like in WoW, starts do still mean something. You won't take the same gear with you from 1-80. But if you find designs you like you CAN transmute them, similar to how wow does it. The main reason to run dungeons, especially at max level, is to obtain these special designed cosmetic armors for transmuting.
3) Even after cap you raise xp. When you would "level" (e.g. when you would in theory hit 81), your bar resets, and you gain a skill point. These can be used to buy skills, or to fund other cool things like help making very very rare pieces of gear (again, mostly cosmetic, not for stats). So even getting xp matters at max level.
Did that help any?
Thumbs up for Terrant, always polite and enlightening
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Originally posted by GosuRusha510 How is that fun? with no rewards?....what ever happen to risk and reward?
People have fun doing the gear teadmill. Not everybody enjoys doing something for nothing.
Originally posted by Jimmy562 People have fun doing the gear teadmill. Not everybody enjoys doing something for nothing.
As soon as you play a video game, you do something for nothing... what's your point? ;-)
If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.
Originally posted by GosuRusha510 What's the point of doing instances at low level and at 80 over and over, if gear doesn't matter?
Whats the point of playing a videogame?
Originally posted by Bladestrom Helthros read through you own replies again you arguement against lateral progression is eve?! Eve is a lateral model, there is no 1 single top tier that = end of game. You cannot blow through the content In eve because there is no end point. It is the same for gw2, there is no end game tier. Re skills, think about eve skills.
I didn't say it was EVE. I just don't agree with you that EVE is lateral because it's not. You're telling me you're still going to do level 1 missions once you've been doing 2 or 3? You're telling me you can hop right into a lvl 4 mission solo? You're telling me you're going to do 1/10 or 2/10 after you can solo 10/10? Will you go back to doing the smaller anomolies once you start doing havens or sanctums?
So instead of a gear treadmill, GW2 has a skill points treadmill? You're honestly going with that as being an improvement over chasing gear?
EVE is a sandbox game and it doesn't even really have PvE outside of incursions and complexes. I don't even know why you're using EVE as an example for anything in this arguement here since this conversation is almost entirely about themepark PvE gameplay. I mentioned EVE to simply state the kind of games that I like and you took it to this lateral progression BS.
Point of the matter is: If there's nothing to stop people from progressing through the content, they will chew through it in a matter of days. Then you're left with a boatload of upset customers that will drop the game on the turn of a dime.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Repeating the same bossss for months on end can be ok, but wouldn't it be better to have lot of other content to do at the same time?
You don't think they could release all the bosses at the same time? They'll chew through the bosses in weeks or days even, then what?
It's unrealistic to think that programmers can crank out enough content to satisfy the insatiable thirst gamers have for PvE content without some sort of limitations.
If you wouldn't do content except for the in-game rewards, then you don't like the content, and shouldn't do it even with the in-game rewards. After all, if you don't like the content, then you fundamentally dislike the game. What good does it do you to get rewards that don't exist outside of a game you dislike?
Originally posted by BrainDeadG A neat trick would have the dungeons differ each time a player goes inside. That way it's not the same instance they just completed 15 minutes or so ago.
I have said a random dungeon generation system would be cool! Perhaps on an island a wacked out wizard lives in a cave or a tower and it changes each time you enter it. /shrug
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Originally posted by GosuRusha510What's the point of doing instances at low level and at 80 over and over, if gear doesn't matter?
I don't know. I haven't played the game yet.
However the idea of an alternative to a gear grind is fine with me. I don't mind grinding gear so much, as long as I can find a few people that I enjoy playing with .. but i'm also not opposed to there being something else, instead of a gear grind.
Will it have enough to justify not having a gear grind? I sincerely hope so, but I also highly doubt it.
Vanilla wow was the first real grinding I did. I played UO and EQ, but not enough to really do any raiding. That being said the problem with newWoW and every other game that has tried to copy it, is that they continue to make things like the gear grind trivial, but don't replace the time you spent grinding that gear with anything. SWTOR is the prime example of it. 1-2 months of content != subscription based MMO.
I dont know why people hate gear grinding. Tiered instances provide a goal for the group to work together towards. Guess the solo mentality has completely eclipsed the genre at this point. These games put me to sleep after 20 minutes now. Nothing meaningful to work towards. No reason to care after the OooOoH Shiny New Game syndrome has died.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by xenogias Originally posted by GosuRusha510 Originally posted by terrant Originally posted by GosuRusha510 So your telling I can take my lvl 1 gear to 80 and not change a thing? How does that make sense? Enlighten me please.
Haha, yeah it's like the reverse troll, polite and sans contrariness; Good show.
The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.