Enrage Timers: Invalid and has nothing to do with a Dungeon Crawl, and everything to do with the game having to make you understand you're undergeared at some point. The only reason for these to possibly be removed would be to encourage players to tackle harder challenges more often. But you can't really just let heal- or defense-intense builds be too good at farming vastly higher-tier mobs, or the game would be encouraging you to always have very very slow tedious fights.
Power relationship: (Invalid) Um, is this just the poster wishing Inferno was super easy? Because that's what it sounds like. I want some hard shit to tackle when I get to endgame. Hell, I want hard shit to tackle at beginninggame! (Which, again, should increase my rate of rewards (gear/xp))
This is the whole discussion in a nutshell, you simply cannot fathom something different from the controlled raid or small scale, me (and friends) vs 3 elites, combat.
Just like the devs.
We DO NOT need to have tough elites, we DO NOT need to have tough bosses, they just need to be epic, we DO NOT need gear checks, gear just has to be attractive, we DO NOT need extensive survivability checks, we just need basic rules not a petri-dish environment where everything out of the right pattern is vanquished, we DO NOT need to have a long tough forced progression trough the game to make a rpg fun and a lasting experience.
300hrs thats like putting in 40hrs a week since release, just like a job. Each to there own I guess. I got about 12hrs out of it before I shelved it, repetative things just dont hold me for long.
300hrs holy shit
You must have a pretty fun job.
I make games for a living, and even my job isn't as fun as D3 was.
I'm pretty sure I didn't spend 40hrs a week since release so maybe my numbers are off, but I know my main had like 100-120 hours, and I also had two other 60s and a mid-50 character.
I design and prototype metal parts and product's for a living. Sometimes my job is a blast and sometimes it's boring as fuck. Depends on the project I'm working on at the time.
And when I said repetative I'm talking about the content, which really didnt impress me with D3, no biggy, I just cant redo the same content over and over and over and over.... It's bringing in an RMAH that disgust's me, Blizz has 0 ethic's. Guess I'm just old fashioned.
Between Bioware's Tortanic schmorgisborg and Blizzard's ultra fail with D3, i assure you that these companies won't be making any big sales like they did before.
These games were the straw that broke the camels back for many gamers. Too many of which gave WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too much credit to these companies just for being who they are.
Constant comments like, "its bioware, how bad can it be", and other stupid things like that. Basically blizzard and bioware have been cashing in on the namesake that was built by the original employees of these companies 10-15 years ago who have all long since left the company or were fired because they weren't interested in taking every opportunity to "monetize the product" and actually cared about making quality games that people would enjoy and not fleecing their customers for every cent they could before the customers realized they were being fleeced.
I think a lot of people have finally pulled the wool from their eyes.
I personally only bought D3 because i have an old gaming buddy who due to his personal and professional life has very little gaming time anymore, and he was excited about the game. So i figured, why not, 60 bucks so i can game with my friend again. Even though i had made a vow not to give that wretched company any more of my money. Now of course, he realizes it was a crock of shit, even though i tried to warn him.
So, from here on out, i assure you blizzard won't receive another penny of my money, and bioware i've had it in for since Mass Effect 2. Though i wasnt as enamored by ME1 as everyone else seemed to be. (its actually funny, if you get a chance go load up SWTOR and play through the first couple hours, then do the same thing with ME1, you'll have a heart attack from laughing at how ungodly similar the stories and play/areas are).
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I design and prototype metal parts and product's for a living. Sometimes my job is a blast and sometimes it's boring as fuck. Depends on the project I'm working on at the time.
And when I said repetative I'm talking about the content, which really didnt impress me with D3, no biggy, I just cant redo the same content over and over and over and over.... It's bringing in an RMAH that disgust's me, Blizz has 0 ethic's. Guess I'm just old fashioned.
I don't really care about things which exert zero influence over how much money and/or fun I get out of a game, and RMAH definitely fell under that category. If it'd been a PVP game, I would've cared, but it's not (and won't be even after PVP is implemented.)
The content in D3 was more varied than nearly every MMORPG I've played, up until Act 1 inferno at least. Varied mobs; varied character capabilities. There was a lot of variety. I certainly wish modern MMORPGs would have that kind of gameplay variety. It'd make them much more enjoyable. Even TSW, which I'm enjoying, comes nowhere close to the amount of mob variety D3 had, and it's the most mob-varied MMO to come around in years!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I design and prototype metal parts and product's for a living. Sometimes my job is a blast and sometimes it's boring as fuck. Depends on the project I'm working on at the time.
And when I said repetative I'm talking about the content, which really didnt impress me with D3, no biggy, I just cant redo the same content over and over and over and over.... It's bringing in an RMAH that disgust's me, Blizz has 0 ethic's. Guess I'm just old fashioned.
I don't really care about things which exert zero influence over how much money and/or fun I get out of a game, and RMAH definitely fell under that category. If it'd been a PVP game, I would've cared, but it's not (and won't be even after PVP is implemented.)
The content in D3 was more varied than nearly every MMORPG I've played, up until Act 1 inferno at least. Varied mobs; varied character capabilities. There was a lot of variety. I certainly wish modern MMORPGs would have that kind of gameplay variety. It'd make them much more enjoyable. Even TSW, which I'm enjoying, comes nowhere close to the amount of mob variety D3 had, and it's the most mob-varied MMO to come around in years!
Well you must be young and or short sighted to not see the negative precident this sets. Whether you believe it ornot it does have an influence over the amount of fun you will get out of a game.
I'd feel very confident saying that if D3 did not have an RMAH, it would have been a much better game.
Well you must be young and or short sighted to not see the negative precident this sets. Whether you believe it ornot it does have an influence over the amount of fun you will get out of a game.
I'd feel very confident saying that if D3 did not have an RMAH, it would have been a much better game.
I'm neither young nor short-sighted, which is why I don't have a knee-jerk reaction to a feature which had a near-zero impact on my gameplay.
Literally the only impact it had was extremely indirect: dev hours spent on RMAH that would've been spent elsewhere.
If someone follows the precedent with a similar zero-impact implementation where it's (a) not pay2win PVP, (b) completely optional and (c) I'm not reliant on pay2win PVE groupmates to advance, then that wouldn't influence my decision to play that game in the slightest, because the RMAH wouldn't impact the game in the slightest.
If someone follows the precendent with a worse implementation which does impact gameplay or isn't completely optional, I simply won't play that game.
Because I don't have a knee-jerk reaction to a harmless feature, but I do react to developers compromising their gameplay with pay2win elements. I react to true threats to game integrity, not imagined ones.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is the whole discussion in a nutshell, you simply cannot fathom something different from the controlled raid or small scale, me (and friends) vs 3 elites, combat.
Just like the devs.
We DO NOT need to have tough elites, we DO NOT need to have tough bosses, they just need to be epic, we DO NOT need gear checks, gear just has to be attractive, we DO NOT need extensive survivability checks, we just need basic rules not a petri-dish environment where everything out of the right pattern is vanquished, we DO NOT need to have a long tough forced progression trough the game to make a rpg fun and a lasting experience.
Well what I was describing was simply good combat design and really has nothing to do with raiding or small-group content (apart from said content being good combat design in the better MMORPGs.)
We absolutely DO need to have tough challenges. No challenge means there's no game! (But every player should of course have the option of fighting the challenge which is right for them, and be rewarded accordingly.)
There's no "epic" without challenge.
There's no "epic" without survivability checks.
Thereis "epic" without gear-checks, but we're talking about RPGs. RPGs have progression, and gear is one of the most easily-understood forms of progression.
If you want a no-rules, no-challenge, no-RPG entertainment experience, you're going to find it in something like Second Life. An experience which isn't a game.
There seems to be a much stronger player interest in games with game patterns to unravel than open sandbox experiences like Second Life.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well you must be young and or short sighted to not see the negative precident this sets. Whether you believe it ornot it does have an influence over the amount of fun you will get out of a game.
I'd feel very confident saying that if D3 did not have an RMAH, it would have been a much better game.
I'm neither young nor short-sighted, which is why I don't have a knee-jerk reaction to a feature which had a near-zero impact on my gameplay.
Literally the only impact it had was extremely indirect: dev hours spent on RMAH that would've been spent elsewhere.
If someone follows the precedent with a similar zero-impact implementation where it's (a) not pay2win PVP, (b) completely optional and (c) I'm not reliant on pay2win PVE groupmates to advance, then that wouldn't influence my decision to play that game in the slightest, because the RMAH wouldn't impact the game in the slightest.
If someone follows the precendent with a worse implementation which does impact gameplay or isn't completely optional, I simply won't play that game.
Because I don't have a knee-jerk reaction to a harmless feature, but I do react to developers compromising their gameplay with pay2win elements. I react to true threats to game integrity, not imagined ones.
Well I guess I'm just looking at the bigger picture.
Here we have the most popular gaming company implementing a P2W RMAH into their RPG. If you are buying gear to complete inferno it is by definition P2W. What happens when the PVP enters the game? how is this not a threat to game integrity?
Guess I'm just behind the times. Games to me, be it board games, video games, D&D were always about just having fun. It didnt matter how much money you had to blow, We left that for the casino.
If Blizz consider's it successful, I'd put money on them introducing it into WoW and Titan. Once its accepted by the consumer's the other gaming companies will follow suit.
Nah I see this type of thing as a threat to the integrity of gaming period, even if it dosnt effect me personally. It's just a downhill slope.
Well I guess I'm just looking at the bigger picture.
Here we have the most popular gaming company implementing a P2W RMAH into their RPG. If you are buying gear to complete inferno it is by definition P2W. What happens when the PVP enters the game? how is this not a threat to game integrity?
Guess I'm just behind the times. Games to me, be it board games, video games, D&D were always about just having fun. It didnt matter how much money you had to blow, We left that for the casino.
If Blizz consider's it successful, I'd put money on them introducing it into WoW and Titan. Once its accepted by the consumer's the other gaming companies will follow suit.
Nah I see this type of thing as a threat to the integrity of gaming period, even if it dosnt effect me personally. It's just a downhill slope.
They've implemented a system I can choose to completely ignore without problems.
If someone implements a system I can't ignore, I'll avoid that game.
Games to me have always just been about fun. That's why I can enjoy D3 (without RMAHing). [mod edit]
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I expect more of the same from blizzard. Blizzard isnt in the busness of making good games anymore. They are in the busness of making piles of crap and telling thier idiot fanbase that its pure gold. Luckily they are not the only company that makes games. After DIablo 3 has been so successfull I'm interested to see what the next wave of dungeon crawlers bring. I'm not talking about Torchlight2 or PoE. As many copies as D3 sold you know there are going to be 3-5 more comming out in the next couple years trying to capture that success. Sure they could all be clones. I'll just hope one of them is actually good...kinda like Titans quest was.
Just to inform you, off topic but Grim Dawn is being developed by the makers of Titans Quest.
Its not out yet but it is looking pretty good. PoE is alright, its very very level/item based game and at the momment could use a big animation overhaul for the game to feel more fluid.
This is the absolute worst game I have ever paid money for, and I am a very forgiving person when it comes to the quality of a game. Even with friends, it is no fun at all. This is coming from someone who loved Diablo and Diablo II.
I don't think it will be a wake up call for Blizzard, though I am insanely surprised they have came out and said "okay we admit it, the end game isn't sustainable". They love their RMT auction house a lot, and any change they make will ensure that the game will still revolve around it.
They did admit that, but they got it wrong. They talked about how the 'item hunt' endgame wasn't enough, while skirting the elephant in the room that was the fact that the same kind of endgame was more than enough in diablo 2. That they show no outward indications of asking the hard questions about what went wrong this time (i'd say RMAH and the loot changes made to support it) indicates to me that you are absolutely right and this will not be a wake up call at all.
Also they can afford golden buckets for all the bucketloads of money they earned from this game, that's a big part of it too. It's well nigh impossible to suggest you don't follow a successful formula like this if you're a publicly traded company. It's just too bad they bought that financial success using some of their reputation for tightly crafted and extremely replayable games.
I don't know about you guys but they have multiple law suites in other coutries because of Diablo 3. I really don't think its making them a profit at the momment.
I wouldn't be able to find a source but I am pretty sure its also the fastest returned game in history.
... or blizzard just made their quick buck and will keep using this bussness model?
This.
They will just keep trying to tweek it till they find a way to make it work. They got a little too greedy this time. They will tone it down to the point where they see the kinds of revenues they feel are acceptable via the RMAH.
We have to see how many people pay for the xpac for D3, as well.
They don't seem to have any creative genius there any more, so it's just going to be about tuning the machine to maximize revenue from whoever their target market is.
Well I guess I'm just looking at the bigger picture.
Here we have the most popular gaming company implementing a P2W RMAH into their RPG. If you are buying gear to complete inferno it is by definition P2W. What happens when the PVP enters the game? how is this not a threat to game integrity?
Guess I'm just behind the times. Games to me, be it board games, video games, D&D were always about just having fun. It didnt matter how much money you had to blow, We left that for the casino.
If Blizz consider's it successful, I'd put money on them introducing it into WoW and Titan. Once its accepted by the consumer's the other gaming companies will follow suit.
Nah I see this type of thing as a threat to the integrity of gaming period, even if it dosnt effect me personally. It's just a downhill slope.
They've implemented a system I can choose to completely ignore without problems.
If someone implements a system I can't ignore, I'll avoid that game.
Games to me have always just been about fun. That's why I can enjoy D3 (without RMAHing). [mod edit]
Now why did you have to throw that last sentence in there?
D3 was fun for a short amount of time and why it lost it's sparkle had nothing to do with the RMAH and all to do with a boring game. Different strokes for different folks and all that jazz.
This is the whole discussion in a nutshell, you simply cannot fathom something different from the controlled raid or small scale, me (and friends) vs 3 elites, combat.
Just like the devs.
We DO NOT need to have tough elites, we DO NOT need to have tough bosses, they just need to be epic, we DO NOT need gear checks, gear just has to be attractive, we DO NOT need extensive survivability checks, we just need basic rules not a petri-dish environment where everything out of the right pattern is vanquished, we DO NOT need to have a long tough forced progression trough the game to make a rpg fun and a lasting experience.
Well what I was describing was simply good combat design and really has nothing to do with raiding or small-group content (apart from said content being good combat design in the better MMORPGs.)
We absolutely DO need to have tough challenges. No challenge means there's no game! (But every player should of course have the option of fighting the challenge which is right for them, and be rewarded accordingly.)
There's no "epic" without challenge.
There's no "epic" without survivability checks.
Thereis "epic" without gear-checks, but we're talking about RPGs. RPGs have progression, and gear is one of the most easily-understood forms of progression.
If you want a no-rules, no-challenge, no-RPG entertainment experience, you're going to find it in something like Second Life. An experience which isn't a game.
There seems to be a much stronger player interest in games with game patterns to unravel than open sandbox experiences like Second Life.
I don't know what is considered a challenge for you but increased numbers is not a challenge for me. There is no real challenge in Diablo 3.
Getting 1 shotted off screen by monsters is not a challenge its dumb. The game is a 100% gear check and is not what the genre or the series of the game stands for.
Also to note that there are people now playing the game to find out the statistics of how bad the item roles are in the game. At current someone bought 3000 ilvl63 items and out of all of them only had 4 or 5 items that were worth much. More than half were complete crap, stuff like + gold pick up range, lowered level req etc.
Some were a step above it but the stats on them were worse than stuff you get in Act 2 normal. He got a total of maybe 200 items that could be sold on the AH.
You can keep having fun playing the game fine, but you should know especially from designing games that it is hugely flawed and terribly designed.
There is no risk vrs reward. There is no feeling of accomplishment from playing the game, there is nothing to intice people to play the game. Its actually scary that you as a supposive game programer can't see this, btw what company do you work for because I really don't want to play any game your working on.
I'm sure I'm echoing the sentiments of what has already been posted in here, at least I hope I am...
The game sold tremendously well and Blizzard is surely doing pretty good with their cuts from the RMAH transactions. Negative feedback doesn't mean shit to them if they're selling 6,300,000 copies in the opening week at ~$60USD per box.
The dollar bills would be earplugs to any feedback that they'd ever recieve because if you're pulling those kind of figures, it's unlikely you want to hear anything else.
I'm sure I'm echoing the sentiments of what has already been posted in here, at least I hope I am...
The game sold tremendously well and Blizzard is surely doing pretty good with their cuts from the RMAH transactions. Negative feedback doesn't mean shit to them if they're selling 6,300,000 copies in the opening week at ~$60USD per box.
The dollar bills would be earplugs to any feedback that they'd ever recieve because if you're pulling those kind of figures, it's unlikely you want to hear anything else.
Yet it also is the fastest returned game in history.
That and there are multiple law suites going on right now in different countries because of Diablo 3 not to mention the 10+ year development cycle.
Ill tell you right now, they have not broken even at all from Diablo 3.
Its not a wake up call persay because of the complaints its a wake up call due to the fact that people are quitting the game left and right.
Bash admited to only hundreds of thousands of players online at a time, and the fact that a good portion of the people that bought the game retruned it. Hell half my friends did it.
This is the whole discussion in a nutshell, you simply cannot fathom something different from the controlled raid or small scale, me (and friends) vs 3 elites, combat.
Just like the devs.
We DO NOT need to have tough elites, we DO NOT need to have tough bosses, they just need to be epic, we DO NOT need gear checks, gear just has to be attractive, we DO NOT need extensive survivability checks, we just need basic rules not a petri-dish environment where everything out of the right pattern is vanquished, we DO NOT need to have a long tough forced progression trough the game to make a rpg fun and a lasting experience.
Well what I was describing was simply good combat design and really has nothing to do with raiding or small-group content (apart from said content being good combat design in the better MMORPGs.)
We absolutely DO need to have tough challenges. No challenge means there's no game! (But every player should of course have the option of fighting the challenge which is right for them, and be rewarded accordingly.)
There's no "epic" without challenge.
There's no "epic" without survivability checks.
Thereis "epic" without gear-checks, but we're talking about RPGs. RPGs have progression, and gear is one of the most easily-understood forms of progression.
If you want a no-rules, no-challenge, no-RPG entertainment experience, you're going to find it in something like Second Life. An experience which isn't a game.
There seems to be a much stronger player interest in games with game patterns to unravel than open sandbox experiences like Second Life.
Overall, that is not what i have written, we are talking about very specific forms of combat and challenge, that you see them as generic "good combat design" and essential IS the problem.
If YOU want a limited challenge system and linear gear progression, you can go to wow, it works both ways.
Fastest selling PC game of all time, 9 million copies sold, hundreds of million of dollars made.
If anything, expect more like this.
Problem is that they pretty much destroyed their reputation, and reputation of diablo franchise completely. 9 million copies were sold on good will based on previous games. Their next game will not fare so good.
Good for you! Stick to your guns! Even if they release an AMAZING game that everyone on the planet plays and it's decried the greatest game ever made...don't buy it...you said you wouldn't. Period.
Rofl.... like my wise Dad loves to say.... "Always and Never"
_________________________ It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
I don't know what is considered a challenge for you but increased numbers is not a challenge for me. There is no real challenge in Diablo 3.
Getting 1 shotted off screen by monsters is not a challenge its dumb. The game is a 100% gear check and is not what the genre or the series of the game stands for.
Also to note that there are people now playing the game to find out the statistics of how bad the item roles are in the game. At current someone bought 3000 ilvl63 items and out of all of them only had 4 or 5 items that were worth much. More than half were complete crap, stuff like + gold pick up range, lowered level req etc.
Some were a step above it but the stats on them were worse than stuff you get in Act 2 normal. He got a total of maybe 200 items that could be sold on the AH.
You can keep having fun playing the game fine, but you should know especially from designing games that it is hugely flawed and terribly designed.
There is no risk vrs reward. There is no feeling of accomplishment from playing the game, there is nothing to intice people to play the game. Its actually scary that you as a supposive game programer can't see this, btw what company do you work for because I really don't want to play any game your working on.
Where in my post did you see me say D3 had exactly the right kinds of challenges? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.
Calling D3 "100% gear check" conveniently ignores the depth that emerges the times when it does provide an interesting challenge -- when you're at the gear sweet spot for your current mobs so that dodging a berserker swing is necessary and saves your life, or dodging the meteor+knockback of a Morlu caster. Those are the moments that make D3 not a 100% gear check, and D3 isn't short on them (compared to most MMORPG gameplay it has an awful lot of them, actually.)
You seem to go on a tangent about ilvl63 stuff that doesn't really make much sense (someone intentionally bought non-upgrades and complained about it?)
D3 is about rolling "loot dice", numbered 1-100. If you roll a better number than your prior best, it's an upgrade! It should be clear upon thinking of things this way that the majority of rolls definitely aren't going to be upgrades, because the higher your best roll gets the more rolls you need to expect to beat that upgrade.
Enter the AH. Now you can purchase a "75" roll. This means you've immediately eliminated 75% of loot as possible upgrades. (This of course assumes you don't just outright buy a 99 or 100 roll, as some players could afford that.)
So it's pretty dumb to whine about how hard it is to find upgrades once your gear is all "99"s.
As for risk vs. reward, I think my first post in this thread already covered that (although 'challenge vs. reward' is really what games should be about more than risk vs. reward.) As for "keep having fun playing", I quit D3 once I realize their patch to improve loot drops mathematically encouraged me to keep farming Act 1 inferno forever until I could one-shot Act 2 mobs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Overall, that is not what i have written, we are talking about very specific forms of combat and challenge, that you see them as generic "good combat design" and essential IS the problem.
If YOU want a limited challenge system and linear gear progression, you can go to wow, it works both ways.
Speak plainly and come out with your point.
Are you really suggesting we don't need challenge? Because without challenge, there's no game. WOW has nothing to do with it, this is true of any game (which is why D3's specific form of combat also doesn't matter.)
Very little about D3's loot is "linear progression" (see "loot dice" example from above post)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well I guess I'm just looking at the bigger picture.
Here we have the most popular gaming company implementing a P2W RMAH into their RPG. If you are buying gear to complete inferno it is by definition P2W. What happens when the PVP enters the game? how is this not a threat to game integrity?
Guess I'm just behind the times. Games to me, be it board games, video games, D&D were always about just having fun. It didnt matter how much money you had to blow, We left that for the casino.
If Blizz consider's it successful, I'd put money on them introducing it into WoW and Titan. Once its accepted by the consumer's the other gaming companies will follow suit.
Nah I see this type of thing as a threat to the integrity of gaming period, even if it dosnt effect me personally. It's just a downhill slope.
They've implemented a system I can choose to completely ignore without problems.
If someone implements a system I can't ignore, I'll avoid that game.
Games to me have always just been about fun. That's why I can enjoy D3 (without RMAHing). But you can't; because games to you I guess aren't just about having fun.
I could say the same thing about some asian grinders. If I can grind and eventually get the best gear that way instead of buying it in a CS I dont have to use the CS. If I think the grind is fun anyway there is no problem.... But if I think grinding is boring there is a problem. And in that case I will have to pay or quit. Because I play games to have fun...
If a system like that or like in D3 is OK or not is subjective. We can never decide or know what other people will think is fun or boring. Obviously some players dont like the RMAH in D3. They also play games to have fun and the RMAH ruins the game for them. Its up to them. If they feel that way it makes sense to find some other game they can enjoy.
It's a wake up call your not a kid any more. All those great game you play as a kid are great because there's nothing before it.
I've played games as 7 year old kid on C64, then as 10 y old kid on Amiga.
Then some games on PC starting at 13 + years old.
I also had access to some game consoles in my friend's houses.
So no your arguments are invalid - I had many games played and 6 years of gaming experience before I played PC games from 1996 - 2005 which I consider time when best games did release and I compare games from that peroid to new games.
It is not just rose tainted glasses since I replay some games from that peroid every now and then in today's times.
I could say the same thing about some asian grinders. If I can grind and eventually get the best gear that way instead of buying it in a CS I dont have to use the CS. If I think the grind is fun anyway there is no problem.... But if I think grinding is boring there is a problem. And in that case I will have to pay or quit. Because I play games to have fun...
If a system like that or like in D3 is OK or not is subjective. We can never decide or know what other people will think is fun or boring. Obviously some players dont like the RMAH in D3. They also play games to have fun and the RMAH ruins the game for them. Its up to them. If they feel that way it makes sense to find some other game they can enjoy.
It doesn't matter whether they think it's fun or boring.
With a grind, you cannot avoid it.
With RMAH, you can avoid it. Completely. Without penalty.
You could completely hate the RMAH or (like me) simply have zero interest in ruining your fun with it, and decide not to use it, and not have a worse experience as a result (in fact my experience is far better than it would've been if I'd bought/sold RMAH gear.)
If the critique was aimed at the AH in general, I could understand it better because (a) killing mobs and finding an upgrade is fun, (b) the AH interface isn't fun, and (c) using the AH massively reduces the upgrades I'll end up getting from mobs.
Some other game designer in the Blizzard official forums pointed that out (paraphrased: "Games should drive players to their most fun features, but D3 drives you to the AH.") and it was a fantastic point.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
This is the whole discussion in a nutshell, you simply cannot fathom something different from the controlled raid or small scale, me (and friends) vs 3 elites, combat.
Just like the devs.
We DO NOT need to have tough elites, we DO NOT need to have tough bosses, they just need to be epic, we DO NOT need gear checks, gear just has to be attractive, we DO NOT need extensive survivability checks, we just need basic rules not a petri-dish environment where everything out of the right pattern is vanquished, we DO NOT need to have a long tough forced progression trough the game to make a rpg fun and a lasting experience.
Flame on!
All i know is i'll never buy another blizzard product again.
I design and prototype metal parts and product's for a living. Sometimes my job is a blast and sometimes it's boring as fuck. Depends on the project I'm working on at the time.
And when I said repetative I'm talking about the content, which really didnt impress me with D3, no biggy, I just cant redo the same content over and over and over and over.... It's bringing in an RMAH that disgust's me, Blizz has 0 ethic's. Guess I'm just old fashioned.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Between Bioware's Tortanic schmorgisborg and Blizzard's ultra fail with D3, i assure you that these companies won't be making any big sales like they did before.
These games were the straw that broke the camels back for many gamers. Too many of which gave WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too much credit to these companies just for being who they are.
Constant comments like, "its bioware, how bad can it be", and other stupid things like that. Basically blizzard and bioware have been cashing in on the namesake that was built by the original employees of these companies 10-15 years ago who have all long since left the company or were fired because they weren't interested in taking every opportunity to "monetize the product" and actually cared about making quality games that people would enjoy and not fleecing their customers for every cent they could before the customers realized they were being fleeced.
I think a lot of people have finally pulled the wool from their eyes.
I personally only bought D3 because i have an old gaming buddy who due to his personal and professional life has very little gaming time anymore, and he was excited about the game. So i figured, why not, 60 bucks so i can game with my friend again. Even though i had made a vow not to give that wretched company any more of my money. Now of course, he realizes it was a crock of shit, even though i tried to warn him.
So, from here on out, i assure you blizzard won't receive another penny of my money, and bioware i've had it in for since Mass Effect 2. Though i wasnt as enamored by ME1 as everyone else seemed to be. (its actually funny, if you get a chance go load up SWTOR and play through the first couple hours, then do the same thing with ME1, you'll have a heart attack from laughing at how ungodly similar the stories and play/areas are).
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't really care about things which exert zero influence over how much money and/or fun I get out of a game, and RMAH definitely fell under that category. If it'd been a PVP game, I would've cared, but it's not (and won't be even after PVP is implemented.)
The content in D3 was more varied than nearly every MMORPG I've played, up until Act 1 inferno at least. Varied mobs; varied character capabilities. There was a lot of variety. I certainly wish modern MMORPGs would have that kind of gameplay variety. It'd make them much more enjoyable. Even TSW, which I'm enjoying, comes nowhere close to the amount of mob variety D3 had, and it's the most mob-varied MMO to come around in years!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well you must be young and or short sighted to not see the negative precident this sets. Whether you believe it ornot it does have an influence over the amount of fun you will get out of a game.
I'd feel very confident saying that if D3 did not have an RMAH, it would have been a much better game.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I'm neither young nor short-sighted, which is why I don't have a knee-jerk reaction to a feature which had a near-zero impact on my gameplay.
Literally the only impact it had was extremely indirect: dev hours spent on RMAH that would've been spent elsewhere.
If someone follows the precedent with a similar zero-impact implementation where it's (a) not pay2win PVP, (b) completely optional and (c) I'm not reliant on pay2win PVE groupmates to advance, then that wouldn't influence my decision to play that game in the slightest, because the RMAH wouldn't impact the game in the slightest.
If someone follows the precendent with a worse implementation which does impact gameplay or isn't completely optional, I simply won't play that game.
Because I don't have a knee-jerk reaction to a harmless feature, but I do react to developers compromising their gameplay with pay2win elements. I react to true threats to game integrity, not imagined ones.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well what I was describing was simply good combat design and really has nothing to do with raiding or small-group content (apart from said content being good combat design in the better MMORPGs.)
We absolutely DO need to have tough challenges. No challenge means there's no game! (But every player should of course have the option of fighting the challenge which is right for them, and be rewarded accordingly.)
If you want a no-rules, no-challenge, no-RPG entertainment experience, you're going to find it in something like Second Life. An experience which isn't a game.
There seems to be a much stronger player interest in games with game patterns to unravel than open sandbox experiences like Second Life.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well I guess I'm just looking at the bigger picture.
Here we have the most popular gaming company implementing a P2W RMAH into their RPG. If you are buying gear to complete inferno it is by definition P2W. What happens when the PVP enters the game? how is this not a threat to game integrity?
Guess I'm just behind the times. Games to me, be it board games, video games, D&D were always about just having fun. It didnt matter how much money you had to blow, We left that for the casino.
If Blizz consider's it successful, I'd put money on them introducing it into WoW and Titan. Once its accepted by the consumer's the other gaming companies will follow suit.
Nah I see this type of thing as a threat to the integrity of gaming period, even if it dosnt effect me personally. It's just a downhill slope.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
They've implemented a system I can choose to completely ignore without problems.
If someone implements a system I can't ignore, I'll avoid that game.
Games to me have always just been about fun. That's why I can enjoy D3 (without RMAHing). [mod edit]
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just to inform you, off topic but Grim Dawn is being developed by the makers of Titans Quest.
Its not out yet but it is looking pretty good. PoE is alright, its very very level/item based game and at the momment could use a big animation overhaul for the game to feel more fluid.
I don't know about you guys but they have multiple law suites in other coutries because of Diablo 3. I really don't think its making them a profit at the momment.
I wouldn't be able to find a source but I am pretty sure its also the fastest returned game in history.
This.
They will just keep trying to tweek it till they find a way to make it work. They got a little too greedy this time. They will tone it down to the point where they see the kinds of revenues they feel are acceptable via the RMAH.
We have to see how many people pay for the xpac for D3, as well.
They don't seem to have any creative genius there any more, so it's just going to be about tuning the machine to maximize revenue from whoever their target market is.
Now why did you have to throw that last sentence in there?
D3 was fun for a short amount of time and why it lost it's sparkle had nothing to do with the RMAH and all to do with a boring game. Different strokes for different folks and all that jazz.
peace out.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I don't know what is considered a challenge for you but increased numbers is not a challenge for me. There is no real challenge in Diablo 3.
Getting 1 shotted off screen by monsters is not a challenge its dumb. The game is a 100% gear check and is not what the genre or the series of the game stands for.
Also to note that there are people now playing the game to find out the statistics of how bad the item roles are in the game. At current someone bought 3000 ilvl63 items and out of all of them only had 4 or 5 items that were worth much. More than half were complete crap, stuff like + gold pick up range, lowered level req etc.
Some were a step above it but the stats on them were worse than stuff you get in Act 2 normal. He got a total of maybe 200 items that could be sold on the AH.
You can keep having fun playing the game fine, but you should know especially from designing games that it is hugely flawed and terribly designed.
There is no risk vrs reward. There is no feeling of accomplishment from playing the game, there is nothing to intice people to play the game. Its actually scary that you as a supposive game programer can't see this, btw what company do you work for because I really don't want to play any game your working on.
I'm sure I'm echoing the sentiments of what has already been posted in here, at least I hope I am...
The game sold tremendously well and Blizzard is surely doing pretty good with their cuts from the RMAH transactions. Negative feedback doesn't mean shit to them if they're selling 6,300,000 copies in the opening week at ~$60USD per box.
The dollar bills would be earplugs to any feedback that they'd ever recieve because if you're pulling those kind of figures, it's unlikely you want to hear anything else.
Yet it also is the fastest returned game in history.
That and there are multiple law suites going on right now in different countries because of Diablo 3 not to mention the 10+ year development cycle.
Ill tell you right now, they have not broken even at all from Diablo 3.
Its not a wake up call persay because of the complaints its a wake up call due to the fact that people are quitting the game left and right.
Bash admited to only hundreds of thousands of players online at a time, and the fact that a good portion of the people that bought the game retruned it. Hell half my friends did it.
Overall, that is not what i have written, we are talking about very specific forms of combat and challenge, that you see them as generic "good combat design" and essential IS the problem.
If YOU want a limited challenge system and linear gear progression, you can go to wow, it works both ways.
Flame on!
Problem is that they pretty much destroyed their reputation, and reputation of diablo franchise completely. 9 million copies were sold on good will based on previous games. Their next game will not fare so good.
Rofl.... like my wise Dad loves to say.... "Always and Never"
_________________________
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
- John Wooden
Where in my post did you see me say D3 had exactly the right kinds of challenges? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.
Calling D3 "100% gear check" conveniently ignores the depth that emerges the times when it does provide an interesting challenge -- when you're at the gear sweet spot for your current mobs so that dodging a berserker swing is necessary and saves your life, or dodging the meteor+knockback of a Morlu caster. Those are the moments that make D3 not a 100% gear check, and D3 isn't short on them (compared to most MMORPG gameplay it has an awful lot of them, actually.)
You seem to go on a tangent about ilvl63 stuff that doesn't really make much sense (someone intentionally bought non-upgrades and complained about it?)
D3 is about rolling "loot dice", numbered 1-100. If you roll a better number than your prior best, it's an upgrade! It should be clear upon thinking of things this way that the majority of rolls definitely aren't going to be upgrades, because the higher your best roll gets the more rolls you need to expect to beat that upgrade.
Enter the AH. Now you can purchase a "75" roll. This means you've immediately eliminated 75% of loot as possible upgrades. (This of course assumes you don't just outright buy a 99 or 100 roll, as some players could afford that.)
So it's pretty dumb to whine about how hard it is to find upgrades once your gear is all "99"s.
As for risk vs. reward, I think my first post in this thread already covered that (although 'challenge vs. reward' is really what games should be about more than risk vs. reward.) As for "keep having fun playing", I quit D3 once I realize their patch to improve loot drops mathematically encouraged me to keep farming Act 1 inferno forever until I could one-shot Act 2 mobs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Speak plainly and come out with your point.
Are you really suggesting we don't need challenge? Because without challenge, there's no game. WOW has nothing to do with it, this is true of any game (which is why D3's specific form of combat also doesn't matter.)
Very little about D3's loot is "linear progression" (see "loot dice" example from above post)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I could say the same thing about some asian grinders. If I can grind and eventually get the best gear that way instead of buying it in a CS I dont have to use the CS. If I think the grind is fun anyway there is no problem.... But if I think grinding is boring there is a problem. And in that case I will have to pay or quit. Because I play games to have fun...
If a system like that or like in D3 is OK or not is subjective. We can never decide or know what other people will think is fun or boring. Obviously some players dont like the RMAH in D3. They also play games to have fun and the RMAH ruins the game for them. Its up to them. If they feel that way it makes sense to find some other game they can enjoy.
I've played games as 7 year old kid on C64, then as 10 y old kid on Amiga.
Then some games on PC starting at 13 + years old.
I also had access to some game consoles in my friend's houses.
So no your arguments are invalid - I had many games played and 6 years of gaming experience before I played PC games from 1996 - 2005 which I consider time when best games did release and I compare games from that peroid to new games.
It is not just rose tainted glasses since I replay some games from that peroid every now and then in today's times.
It doesn't matter whether they think it's fun or boring.
With a grind, you cannot avoid it.
With RMAH, you can avoid it. Completely. Without penalty.
You could completely hate the RMAH or (like me) simply have zero interest in ruining your fun with it, and decide not to use it, and not have a worse experience as a result (in fact my experience is far better than it would've been if I'd bought/sold RMAH gear.)
If the critique was aimed at the AH in general, I could understand it better because (a) killing mobs and finding an upgrade is fun, (b) the AH interface isn't fun, and (c) using the AH massively reduces the upgrades I'll end up getting from mobs.
Some other game designer in the Blizzard official forums pointed that out (paraphrased: "Games should drive players to their most fun features, but D3 drives you to the AH.") and it was a fantastic point.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver