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The keyboard needs to be retired.

13

Comments

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    There's been a few times over the years I have hooked controllers up to my computer to see how it would stack up against the old standard.  The fact is, I never last longer than 15 minutes with controllers.  The reason is that they are slow and clunky.  Sure, with practice I could get a little better with it, but I don't believe they will ever be as precise as a mouse and keyboard.

    I wouldn't mind seeing something else come along.  There are gaming products that replace the actual keyboard with single-hand devices with lots of buttons, but all they are doing is making a smaller version of the same thing.

    For me, today's gamepads don't cut it, and until something does, I'll stick with the old gaurd.

    On the upside, strides are being made in mind-controlled gaming!  ;)

    I'm not directly comparing the keyboard and mouse to a controller. The msouse is objectively more precise than an analog. My point is that analog movement is superior to the four buttons. There are more directions, and control over the magnitude.

    I think I understand now what the problem is, You are only using four buttons to move. Most people use a combination of the mouse and keyboard. The two combined allow a real flexible range of movement, also many games assign up and down keys. for instance the space bar is usually used for up when flying. Not only that, with the keyboard you can usually remap it to your liking.

    by only useing the four keys you are missing out on moving your character up and down, by not using the mouse you are missing out on looking all around in any direction.

    The ability to program the keys how you like them, us macros, use hot keys, all in combination with a mouse is the current optimal, but when they come out with something better, I will definately give it a whirl. I am sure when they come out with that new thing, six months later we will wonder how we ever gamed without it.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg

    I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

    Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

    If you're comparing a gamepad to a keyboard with no mouse, then the gamepad will sometimes win.  Then again, no one would use the keyboard with no mouse unless the game worked very well with two hands on the keyboard.

    I don't think I've ever used WASD for movement in a game, other than briefly until I figured out how to adjust the controls.  If I'm going to use the keyboard for movement, then the 10-key section is by far the most comfortable.

    The best movement controls that I've used is the sliding direction pad on the NES Max.  The downside of that is that it means one hand can't do much--and in particular, can't strafe in addition to moving.  That's fine in some isometric overhead or side scrolling games (such as nearly every NES game ever made), but doesn't work for a camera that follows you from behind.

    The NES Max controls weren't analog, but I'd expect that the same basic design could be made analog.  That would surely be a lot more comfortable to use than the awkward thumbsticks that have become so ubiquitous.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blognorg

    The aiming is the weak link, not the moving. Again, I'm comparing the K&B to a controller. Nowhere did I mention a controller. Yes, the mouse is more precise; I said that in original post. The mouse is fine. Basically, my point to combine a mouse and an analog stick... until we can come up with a better control scheme.

    What do you need two analog controls for?  I can't think of any game where I've had any plausible use for two analog controls.

    For movement purposes, a thumbstick shares the same weakness as a directional pad:  you can't strafe.  If that isn't needed, a directional pad wins.  When I played Spiral Knights, I had both on the same gamepad, and the directional pad was much easier to use.  The thumbstick was useful for occasionally moving the mouse pointer, when I needed to fire in a particular direction, but that was it.

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon

    What a completely horrible idea, all games I have seen incorporating controllers become tedious and slow to operate (ex: latest Final Fantasy).

    Some games are great with game controllers, like .. car games and .. err are there any others ? but completely useless for any game using a cursor which would be ALL mmorpgs ALL rts ALL 1st person shooters and so on.

    The mouse is accurate and fast and only require one hand, the keyboard has enough buttons for all keybinds you desire and together these two are far superior to game controllers. The only thing a game controller has that mouse+keybord doesnt are analogue controls.

    Blend your controller and bin your console and take a step up.

     

    ps. Yup I have a good quality game controller and I am using it for car games where it is superior.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by AvatarBlade
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by blognorg

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Originally posted by blognorg I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.
    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go. Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.
    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

    Analog sticks are inferior to mouse for turning and aiming. It doesn't matter if an analog stick is comparable to WASD because you're not going to use a mouse without some sort of keyboard. Even if that keyboard is an analog joystick with a lot of buttons.

    It only matters in FPS PvP though. For everything else it's not really that big a deal.

     

    The aiming is the weak link, not the moving. Again, I'm comparing the K&B to a controller. Nowhere did I mention a controller. Yes, the mouse is more precise; I said that in original post. The mouse is fine. Basically, my point to combine a mouse and an analog stick... until we can come up with a better control scheme.

    You don't only use the mouse for aiming, you also use it to give finer control to movement direction, that is not attainable with only WASD, so the analog stick isn't needed.

    You're right, but that's not my point. What you're saying is that a mouse makes WASD better, what I'm saying is that analog control is better than WASD.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by AvatarBlade
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by blognorg

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Originally posted by blognorg I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.
    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go. Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.
    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

    Analog sticks are inferior to mouse for turning and aiming. It doesn't matter if an analog stick is comparable to WASD because you're not going to use a mouse without some sort of keyboard. Even if that keyboard is an analog joystick with a lot of buttons.

    It only matters in FPS PvP though. For everything else it's not really that big a deal.

     

    The aiming is the weak link, not the moving. Again, I'm comparing the K&B to a controller. Nowhere did I mention a controller. Yes, the mouse is more precise; I said that in original post. The mouse is fine. Basically, my point to combine a mouse and an analog stick... until we can come up with a better control scheme.

    You don't only use the mouse for aiming, you also use it to give finer control to movement direction, that is not attainable with only WASD, so the analog stick isn't needed.

    You're right, but that's not my point. What you're saying is that a mouse makes WASD better, what I'm saying is that analog control is better than WASD.

    But that's irrelevant.  The question isn't whether WASD alone or analog alone is better, unless you're looking for games playable by someone with only one hand.  The question is whether WASD+mouse or analog+mouse is better.  And the latter isn't going to win.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by kjempff

    What a completely horrible idea, all games I have seen incorporating controllers become tedious and slow to operate (ex: latest Final Fantasy).

    Some games are great with game controllers, like .. car games and .. err are there any others ? but completely useless for any game using a cursor which would be ALL mmorpgs ALL rts ALL 1st person shooters and so on.

    The mouse is accurate and fast and only require one hand, the keyboard has enough buttons for all keybinds you desire and together these two are far superior to game controllers. The only thing a game controller has that mouse+keybord doesnt are analogue controls.

    Blend your controller and bin your console and take a step up.

    I'm not talking about directly comparing a controller. I even said that a mouse is more precise than an anlog... that can't be disputed. I'm saying that analog give you more control than WASD.

  • AnirethAnireth Posts: 599Member Uncommon

    Until there in fact is better hardware to achieve this job, the keyboard does not need to be retired.

    That being said, i wouldn't be surprised if there would be lots of different input methods we just can't think of. Gloves and direct brain interfaces are the next ones that could change how gaming or general interaction with the computer is done, but they could also absolutely fail.

    I also wouldn't mind MMOs or games in general to support controllers. Even strategy games. Why not? The important thing is to avoid the so called dumbing down.

    It's just that if you realize the game is a straight port from console to PC before you are even past the main menu, then there is something wrong. Very wrong.

    Also, more choices lead to the developers to have to think about more. Can people actually do everything with both keyboard and a controller? With *every* controller, not just the $300 one only available through the super special limited diamond  platinum prepurchase collectors box for $700? Can people with a keyboard or a controller actually abuse the game, like, jumping somewhere you aren't supposed to etc, because of changes made so that the previous statement holds true?

    If a game is designed from ground for both, maybe even seperates the interface from the game itself and pair it with the control scheme..then it might be possible to do it right.

    Unfornutately, some games do not even allow keyboard, or even funnier, you need to use a controller to get past the "press start "screen, so you can change the input method to keyboard in the main menu.

    And, as games do usually not require the player to use the full 360° for directional movement, same with controlling magnitude at all times (as you can control it with pressing the button longer if it doesn't need to happen constantly), the big advantage of controllers is gone, and we are left with imprecise controls by controller itself AND by the people, like, ccidentally changing direction because you moved the stick a bit too much diagonally.

    Now it could be nice if games would actually make use of stuff like this, like, when some games like Black and White introduced mouse gestures, was fun for a while. But it didn't really stick. How many games empoly mouse gestures today?

    There is a reason behind all this, and it's not only because we are used to keyboard + mouse.

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    Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
    And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by kjempff

    What a completely horrible idea, all games I have seen incorporating controllers become tedious and slow to operate (ex: latest Final Fantasy).

    Some games are great with game controllers, like .. car games and .. err are there any others ? but completely useless for any game using a cursor which would be ALL mmorpgs ALL rts ALL 1st person shooters and so on.

    The mouse is accurate and fast and only require one hand, the keyboard has enough buttons for all keybinds you desire and together these two are far superior to game controllers. The only thing a game controller has that mouse+keybord doesnt are analogue controls.

    Blend your controller and bin your console and take a step up.

    I'm not talking about directly comparing a controller. I even said that a mouse is more precise than an anlog... that can't be disputed. I'm saying that analog give you more control than WASD.

    But no one just uses WASD for moviement. If that is all you are using no wonder you think the keyboard/mouse movement is sub optimal

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg

    I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

    Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

    If you're comparing a gamepad to a keyboard with no mouse, then the gamepad will sometimes win.  Then again, no one would use the keyboard with no mouse unless the game worked very well with two hands on the keyboard.

    I don't think I've ever used WASD for movement in a game, other than briefly until I figured out how to adjust the controls.  If I'm going to use the keyboard for movement, then the 10-key section is by far the most comfortable.

    The best movement controls that I've used is the sliding direction pad on the NES Max.  The downside of that is that it means one hand can't do much--and in particular, can't strafe in addition to moving.  That's fine in some isometric overhead or side scrolling games (such as nearly every NES game ever made), but doesn't work for a camera that follows you from behind.

    The NES Max controls weren't analog, but I'd expect that the same basic design could be made analog.  That would surely be a lot more comfortable to use than the awkward thumbsticks that have become so ubiquitous.

    Strafing could be solved like in Metroid Prime. They just designed it so that all you had to do was hold a button to strafe, but I'm sure the opposite could be done (holding a button to turn, with the default being strafing). I'm not saying the the keyboard is useless... it obviously works. I just think it's silly that, as a humans (who have put people on the moon, and figured out quantam mechanics), we haven't designed a better game stadard for PCs. That's all.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by kjempff

    What a completely horrible idea, all games I have seen incorporating controllers become tedious and slow to operate (ex: latest Final Fantasy).

    Some games are great with game controllers, like .. car games and .. err are there any others ? but completely useless for any game using a cursor which would be ALL mmorpgs ALL rts ALL 1st person shooters and so on.

    The mouse is accurate and fast and only require one hand, the keyboard has enough buttons for all keybinds you desire and together these two are far superior to game controllers. The only thing a game controller has that mouse+keybord doesnt are analogue controls.

    Blend your controller and bin your console and take a step up.

    I'm not talking about directly comparing a controller. I even said that a mouse is more precise than an anlog... that can't be disputed. I'm saying that analog give you more control than WASD.

    But no one just uses WASD for moviement. If that is all you are using no wonder you think the keyboard/mouse movement is sub optimal

    Yeah, a mouse makes WASD better, but I don't think that adding analog control would take the functionality of the mouse away. Analog would just be there as a bonus, for when you need it... like for jumping puzzles.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg

    I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

    Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

    If you're comparing a gamepad to a keyboard with no mouse, then the gamepad will sometimes win.  Then again, no one would use the keyboard with no mouse unless the game worked very well with two hands on the keyboard.

    I don't think I've ever used WASD for movement in a game, other than briefly until I figured out how to adjust the controls.  If I'm going to use the keyboard for movement, then the 10-key section is by far the most comfortable.

    The best movement controls that I've used is the sliding direction pad on the NES Max.  The downside of that is that it means one hand can't do much--and in particular, can't strafe in addition to moving.  That's fine in some isometric overhead or side scrolling games (such as nearly every NES game ever made), but doesn't work for a camera that follows you from behind.

    The NES Max controls weren't analog, but I'd expect that the same basic design could be made analog.  That would surely be a lot more comfortable to use than the awkward thumbsticks that have become so ubiquitous.

    Strafing could be solved like in Metroid Prime. They just designed it so that all you had to do was hold a button to strafe, but I'm sure the opposite could be done (holding a button to turn, with the default being strafing). I'm not saying the the keyboard is useless... it obviously works. I just think it's silly that, as a humans (who have put people on the moon, and figured out quantam mechanics), we haven't designed a better game stadard for PCs. That's all.

    That gets you nowhere, as you're still only able to either strafe or turn, and not both at the same time.  Never mind precision.  Having six keys on a keyboard makes entire classes of movements possible that you can't do with a thumbstick alone.

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,172Member Uncommon

    Any basic keyboard has access to 25 easy to reach keys with at least 3 modifiers. 75 keybinds that take less than an eigth of a second to press. As far as control of your character, that sounds like a personal problem.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg

    I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

    Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

    If you're comparing a gamepad to a keyboard with no mouse, then the gamepad will sometimes win.  Then again, no one would use the keyboard with no mouse unless the game worked very well with two hands on the keyboard.

    I don't think I've ever used WASD for movement in a game, other than briefly until I figured out how to adjust the controls.  If I'm going to use the keyboard for movement, then the 10-key section is by far the most comfortable.

    The best movement controls that I've used is the sliding direction pad on the NES Max.  The downside of that is that it means one hand can't do much--and in particular, can't strafe in addition to moving.  That's fine in some isometric overhead or side scrolling games (such as nearly every NES game ever made), but doesn't work for a camera that follows you from behind.

    The NES Max controls weren't analog, but I'd expect that the same basic design could be made analog.  That would surely be a lot more comfortable to use than the awkward thumbsticks that have become so ubiquitous.

    Strafing could be solved like in Metroid Prime. They just designed it so that all you had to do was hold a button to strafe, but I'm sure the opposite could be done (holding a button to turn, with the default being strafing). I'm not saying the the keyboard is useless... it obviously works. I just think it's silly that, as a humans (who have put people on the moon, and figured out quantam mechanics), we haven't designed a better game stadard for PCs. That's all.

    That gets you nowhere, as you're still only able to either strafe or turn, and not both at the same time.  Never mind precision.  Having six keys on a keyboard makes entire classes of movements possible that you can't do with a thumbstick alone.

    Turning seems largely redundant when you have a mouse. Turning with keys seems less effective then just another analog stick. I'm not saying that no one should use what they want. If people want to use dated controls, why not. The same can be said for controllers. If someone wants to play an FPS with a gamepad, that doesn't bother me. However, I think other oprions should become the norm as well. MMOs should have analog support; whether or not people want to take advantage of that is entirely up to them. I just want more options.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    FPSs, MMOs, RTSs. No matter what computer game I play I use the same setup

    Left hand - Belkin Nostromo N52 gamepad

    Right hand - Logitec MX518 mouse

    Keyboard for chat and some menu functions

     

    *did Razer buy out Belkin and the Nostromo? I hate Razer, their mice suck. Had 3 crap out within a year

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
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  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by kjempff

    What a completely horrible idea, all games I have seen incorporating controllers become tedious and slow to operate (ex: latest Final Fantasy).

    Some games are great with game controllers, like .. car games and .. err are there any others ? but completely useless for any game using a cursor which would be ALL mmorpgs ALL rts ALL 1st person shooters and so on.

    The mouse is accurate and fast and only require one hand, the keyboard has enough buttons for all keybinds you desire and together these two are far superior to game controllers. The only thing a game controller has that mouse+keybord doesnt are analogue controls.

    Blend your controller and bin your console and take a step up.

    I'm not talking about directly comparing a controller. I even said that a mouse is more precise than an anlog... that can't be disputed. I'm saying that analog give you more control than WASD.

    But no one just uses WASD for moviement. If that is all you are using no wonder you think the keyboard/mouse movement is sub optimal

    Yeah, a mouse makes WASD better, but I don't think that adding analog control would take the functionality of the mouse away. Analog would just be there as a bonus, for when you need it... like for jumping puzzles.

    First, I like they way you think. The only way to get something improved is to first be discontent with it and ask, can't we do better.

    However, they keyboard is a blank slate, it has the A-Z keys that most people know where they are placed, It has the Shift, ALT, CTRL keys that are easily reached by the left hand, it has the 1-0 number keys and the F keys.

    Add in a mouse with more than two buttons and the system becomes even more versitile.

    Both the game companies and in many games, the players can then map out the keys to fit the games needs. Your key map   for one game may in fact be different from one game to the next depending on it's needs.

    The ability to use it as a blank slate and program the keys how you want is what makes it  so versitile as a game controller, 

    So even though you feel you can get slightly better movement from an analog, I don't see the Analog making up for everything else so well that, overall it would be better than a keyboard.

     

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg

    I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

    Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

    If you're comparing a gamepad to a keyboard with no mouse, then the gamepad will sometimes win.  Then again, no one would use the keyboard with no mouse unless the game worked very well with two hands on the keyboard.

    I don't think I've ever used WASD for movement in a game, other than briefly until I figured out how to adjust the controls.  If I'm going to use the keyboard for movement, then the 10-key section is by far the most comfortable.

    The best movement controls that I've used is the sliding direction pad on the NES Max.  The downside of that is that it means one hand can't do much--and in particular, can't strafe in addition to moving.  That's fine in some isometric overhead or side scrolling games (such as nearly every NES game ever made), but doesn't work for a camera that follows you from behind.

    The NES Max controls weren't analog, but I'd expect that the same basic design could be made analog.  That would surely be a lot more comfortable to use than the awkward thumbsticks that have become so ubiquitous.

    Strafing could be solved like in Metroid Prime. They just designed it so that all you had to do was hold a button to strafe, but I'm sure the opposite could be done (holding a button to turn, with the default being strafing). I'm not saying the the keyboard is useless... it obviously works. I just think it's silly that, as a humans (who have put people on the moon, and figured out quantam mechanics), we haven't designed a better game stadard for PCs. That's all.

    That gets you nowhere, as you're still only able to either strafe or turn, and not both at the same time.  Never mind precision.  Having six keys on a keyboard makes entire classes of movements possible that you can't do with a thumbstick alone.

    Turning seems largely redundant when you have a mouse. Turning with keys seems less effective then just another analog stick. I'm not saying that no one should use what they want. If people want to use dated controls, why not. The same can be said for controllers. If someone wants to play an FPS with a gamepad, that doesn't bother me. However, I think other oprions should become the norm as well. MMOs should have analog support; whether or not people want to take advantage of that is entirely up to them. I just want more options.

    Unless, of course, the reason you need the mouse is so that you can click on things.  Like in, oh, every single game ever made where you use a mouse.

    You also raise the dilemma that, if you're using both hands for movement on analog controls, that doesn't leave a whole lot of buttons available to do anything else.  You can have several buttons, perhaps, but you can't move either hand off of the analog controls to reach for buttons.  In many games, that's a complete non-starter.

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon

    I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

  • gainesvilleggainesvilleg Gainesville, FLPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by kjempff

    I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

    Nah, I don't think so.  Too much movement.  Hard to hunker down for 10 straight hours of gaming when you have to jump around like a retard just to play LOL.

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kjempff

    I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

    Certainly not the near future.  It took what, about 30 years between the invention of the mouse, and the invention of the mouse that actually works right?  A Kinect type controller could conceivably get there eventually, but it's going to take a while.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by kjempff I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.
    Certainly not the near future.  It took what, about 30 years between the invention of the mouse, and the invention of the mouse that actually works right?  A Kinect type controller could conceivably get there eventually, but it's going to take a while.


    I think Kinect gesture style control is a "never" for general use. Even in games where the interface isn't awful, it's limited. Maybe with a combination of a controller and gesture recognition, but the gesture recognition by itself isn't nearly multifunctional enough.

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  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Everyone *thinks* they want the interface from Minority Report, but nobody really questions how long they can flail their arms about until they get tired. Work productivity goes down, game times get shorter.

    The keyboard IS the ultimate interface, because it could be argued that it takes even less effort than talking.

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Originally posted by kjempff I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.
    Certainly not the near future.  It took what, about 30 years between the invention of the mouse, and the invention of the mouse that actually works right?  A Kinect type controller could conceivably get there eventually, but it's going to take a while.

    I think Kinect gesture style control is a "never" for general use. Even in games where the interface isn't awful, it's limited. Maybe with a combination of a controller and gesture recognition, but the gesture recognition by itself isn't nearly multifunctional enough.

     

    Gesture recognition strikes me as the sort of thing that could be made to work right with moderately clever programming plus a ton of processing power.  And it might be possible to make it work right with extremely clever programming plus more modest amounts of processing power--such as what is available today in a relatively powerful desktop, especially with GPU compute capabilities.

    Making it work right isn't the only hurdle, of course.  But if it can monitor you precisely, then that opens up the possibility of controlling games with small hand gestures rather than wild motions.  It also opens up the possibility of subtle differences in movements having important gameplay effects.  There's a huge difference between a baseball game that can only tell whether you swung a bat or not, and one that can tell that you swung it just so high, at just such an angle, with the barrel of the bat going just so far off the plate.  The former is a stupid gimmick, but the latter opens up new possibilities.

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon

    But when the movement detection technology matures, it will probably be able to view you hand as a mouse and with the same precision, same for a keyboard. I mean it does not have to be standing in a room waving your hands :) Or possible some new way we havent thought of yet. Like a mmorpg where you have to do real fingerwriggling to cast a spell correctly ?

    ps. Eye movement tracking is also a movement detection tech ;)

     

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Unless, of course, the reason you need the mouse is so that you can click on things.  Like in, oh, every single game ever made where you use a mouse.

    You also raise the dilemma that, if you're using both hands for movement on analog controls, that doesn't leave a whole lot of buttons available to do anything else.  You can have several buttons, perhaps, but you can't move either hand off of the analog controls to reach for buttons.  In many games, that's a complete non-starter.

    I thought you were suggesting that you use two hands for the keyboard, like some people do. Hence the need for turning with keys. I never suggested using an analog instead of a mouse. I guess that still raises the qustion of why you'd need to keys to turn if you have a mouse of an analog. Either way, I'm not saying you can't play how you want, but more MMOs should have analog suuport so that others can play the way they want. I imagine eventually, something will come out that will blow away all of our curent interface devices, and I welcome that day. Or... perhaps that day is already upon us. HAIL KINECT!!

     

    EDIT: I originally typed this before I read all of the Kinect commens. That's funny. I gues we're all on the same wavelength.

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