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The keyboard needs to be retired.

24

Comments

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blognorg

     You know, one that has gaming in mind for its design, unlike the keyboard. I'm not claiming that the keyboard doesn't do the job most of the time, but I think that we can do better.

    Keyboards are designed to give you quick, easy access to a lot of keys.  This can either be with two hands (QWERTY part) or one hand (10-key part).  If you need quick, easy access to a lot of keys for the purpose of playing a game, I don't see what makes that fundamentally different from needing quick, easy access to a lot of keys for some other purpose.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by pierth

     


    Originally posted by blognorg
    I'm not telling everything to defenestrate their keyboards or anything. As it stands now, there are peripherals that people use (like the Nostromo) but still use the keyboard for typing. I'm just saying that I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been a standardized gaming devices. You know, one that has gaming in mind for its design, unlike the keyboard. I'm not claiming that the keyboard doesn't do the job most of the time, but I think that we can do better

     

    There are standardized gaming devices, like the Nostromo and others. The thing is they don't come factory direct with PCs like keyboards do and they just aren't as popular. Not everyone cares enough to buy gaming specific peripherals when the standard keyboard and mouse work.

    EDIT: actually, on second thought, the standard is the keyboard because every PC gamer has one. There are specialty devices such as the Nostromo because other gamers like you don't see the keyboard as good enough, while a great many others do.

    That's exactly my point. The keybopard is just "good enough". It seems like we can break that barrier and aspire to plain ol' "good".

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

    I honestly couldn't imagine having to chat with a controller. While Ventrillo is cool, I don't always feel like logging into it and if I am wandering around and meet someone, I am not going to give out the vent password to a stranger.

    So unless there is no chatting in the MMO, I don't see how you are going to make the game better without a keyboard.

    I'm not talking about using a ctonroller instead. The analog doesn't have to be synonymous with the controller. I'm talking about replaceing the keyboard, as a gaming perihperal, with something better.

  • syntax42syntax42 Columbus, OHPosts: 1,305Member Uncommon

    I have been gaming for almost five years with my Ideazon Fang gamepad.  Yes, I know they were bought out by SteelSeries or changed their name or whatever.  I haven't seen any replacement for it on the horizion, and it is nearing the end of its life. 

     

    What I really want is a gamepad that lets me reliably push almost as many buttons as the average MMO requires.  Just looking at screenshots of raiding for most games makes me wonder how people keep track of so many abilities and consumables.  I can do it too, but I dislike the reaction delay of using a mouse to try to click one interface button in a crowd of many buttons.  Being able to reach over 30 non-movement keys with my left hand has definitely made a difference in the way I play games.

     

    I just wonder why products like the Fang gamepad are not more prevalent on the market.  Anyone who plays PC games should have something more ergonomic than a keyboard, not just for enhancing their reaction times in MMOs. 

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    All you anti-transhuman scaredy cats can hold on to your keyboards. The rest of us can use this.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blognorg

    I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

    Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

  • VarossVaross Nortonville, KYPosts: 481Moderator Uncommon

    Moved this thread to Hardware.   The discussion can continue here.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg

     You know, one that has gaming in mind for its design, unlike the keyboard. I'm not claiming that the keyboard doesn't do the job most of the time, but I think that we can do better.

    Keyboards are designed to give you quick, easy access to a lot of keys.  This can either be with two hands (QWERTY part) or one hand (10-key part).  If you need quick, easy access to a lot of keys for the purpose of playing a game, I don't see what makes that fundamentally different from needing quick, easy access to a lot of keys for some other purpose.

    Yes, a keyboard does have all of that, but it's not optimal. Personally, I can have more buttons, that are more easily accessible on a contoller, but I'm not really making the controller vs K&B argument. My point is that it's not terribly difficult to match the amount of accessable buttons that a keyboard has. The Nostromo has enough buttons for most games that I play, and it has software that alllows for alts and such, if I need. Heck, the Nostromo would be pretty damn good if it had an analog... and MMOs that actually supported it.

  • zinnikeyszinnikeys Chesapeake, VAPosts: 44Member
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by zinnikeys

    I retired my controller over 14 years ago.

    I'm not talking about K&B vs controllers. 

    Yea, but you are saying keyboards need to be retired. Sorry, but you can keep your stick. I love my keyboard.

    And apparently so do a lot of this site's members.

  • DamonDamon Naples, FLPosts: 165Member

     

    Keyboards are an integral part of communication in our world.  Over the years, keyboards evolved from clunky typewriter buttons, to a slightly less clunky form factor, with variations in layout, and now we have a consumer market catering to gamers.  Companies design numerous keyboards specifically for gaming, with different options (ex: macros, built-in LCD, key action), so that we can choose what is best for ourselves.
     
    While the keyboard is an effective tool for gaming in general, the ease at which we can control avatars in a game is exponentially increased with the inclusion of a gaming mouse that we also chose to best suit our needs.  Furthermore, we are not limited to a keyboard and mouse for gaming controls.  For example, joysticks may be used for the flight aspect of a game alone, providing a more fluid control for flight, and the user can use the keyboard and mouse for all other aspects of that game if he/she desires.  It's up to us, as individuals, to choose how we wish to interact with a game.  If you prefer a controller, then use a controller.  There is no need to limit gamers to the use of one device alone.  And if you are anonyed that a game doesn't cater to analog control, then write to the studios that create the games you love and politely inform them why you think it is important.

    image
  • DragonantisDragonantis DublinPosts: 974Member

    The keyboard will remain for decades to come, sure it will go through some evolutions as computers evolve but the simple efficent system will remain.

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    Well, to take this from a new angle. I hope your right, I hope in the future they come up with something better than the standard keyboard, a device that allows us ease of character movement, the abity to chat, type and scroll through menus all while replacing the standard mouse and keyboard. We could call it the Unobtainium 5000.

    I am sure when it comes out, everyone gamer will slap their heads and think, why couldn't i have come up with that,  I'd be a millionaire.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg

    I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

    Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    My idea is to take something like the Microsoft Strategic Command, but increase the number of keys available on the top and sides. It's taking a lot of soldering though. I wish somebody like Razer would come out with such a thing so I didn't have to make this.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dragonantis

    The keyboard will remain for decades to come, sure it will go through some evolutions as computers evolve but the simple efficent system will remain.

    What's the difference between a keyboard today and a keyboard 20 years ago?  USB rather than PS/2?

    Perhaps laptop keyboards today are different from desktop keyboards 20 years ago.  Being right above the processor and video card means they get hot.  The thin form factor means that you can't press the keys very far down, which makes them awkward to use.  Having a touchpad nearby that does things if you touch it also makes keyboard usage awkward.  But those are all ways that they've gotten worse, not better.  And still some people insist that desktops are going to disappear.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Damon

     

    Keyboards are an integral part of communication in our world.  Over the years, keyboards evolved from clunky typewriter buttons, to a slightly less clunky form factor, with variations in layout, and now we have a consumer market catering to gamers.  Companies design numerous keyboards specifically for gaming, with different options (ex: macros, built-in LCD, key action), so that we can choose what is best for ourselves.
     
    While the keyboard is an effective tool for gaming in general, the ease at which we can control avatars in a game is exponentially increased with the inclusion of a gaming mouse that we also chose to best suit our needs.  Furthermore, we are not limited to a keyboard and mouse for gaming controls.  For example, joysticks may be used for the flight aspect of a game alone, providing a more fluid control for flight, and the user can use the keyboard and mouse for all other aspects of that game if he/she desires.  It's up to us, as individuals, to choose how we wish to interact with a game.  If you prefer a controller, then use a controller.  There is no need to limit gamers to the use of one device alone.  And if you are anonyed that a game doesn't cater to analog control, then write to the studios that create the games you love and politely inform them why you think it is important.

    I agree with what you're saying, but that's not the argument that I'm making. I never said to get rid of the keyboard as a communication tool (though we should probably  switch to dvorak or something); but as a gaming perihperal, it's suboptimal. No, I'm not comparing it to the contoller. I'm saying that there should be a superior standard. Yes, analogs are objectively superior. The reason why keyboards are stil the standard isn't because it's the best tool for the job, it's because it's the most convenient. I mean, just look at the standard system in the United States. It's a joke, but people are used to it, so it stays. There comes a point when personal preference distracts from reality.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by Quizzical Originally posted by blognorg I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.
    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go. Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.
    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.


    Analog sticks are inferior to mouse for turning and aiming. It doesn't matter if an analog stick is comparable to WASD because you're not going to use a mouse without some sort of keyboard. Even if that keyboard is an analog joystick with a lot of buttons.

    It only matters in FPS PvP though. For everything else it's not really that big a deal.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GundricGundric Memphis, TNPosts: 341Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xzen

    All you anti-transhuman scaredy cats can hold on to your keyboards. The rest of us can use this.

    I'm all for it. I'd love to flay someone with my mind! image

     

    I use the Nostromo N52te and I love it! 

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Dragonantis The keyboard will remain for decades to come, sure it will go through some evolutions as computers evolve but the simple efficent system will remain.
    What's the difference between a keyboard today and a keyboard 20 years ago?  USB rather than PS/2?

    Perhaps laptop keyboards today are different from desktop keyboards 20 years ago.  Being right above the processor and video card means they get hot.  The thin form factor means that you can't press the keys very far down, which makes them awkward to use.  Having a touchpad nearby that does things if you touch it also makes keyboard usage awkward.  But those are all ways that they've gotten worse, not better.  And still some people insist that desktops are going to disappear.




    I don't know. Short of some kind of direct neural interface, I don't think there's a more efficient interface to keyboard/mouse. It's suited to several different things simultaneously.

    Something other than Qwerty might become the standard, but a keyboard, with buttons you can push seems pretty solid to me.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    There's been a few times over the years I have hooked controllers up to my computer to see how it would stack up against the old standard.  The fact is, I never last longer than 15 minutes with controllers.  The reason is that they are slow and clunky.  Sure, with practice I could get a little better with it, but I don't believe they will ever be as precise as a mouse and keyboard.

    I wouldn't mind seeing something else come along.  There are gaming products that replace the actual keyboard with single-hand devices with lots of buttons, but all they are doing is making a smaller version of the same thing.

    For me, today's gamepads don't cut it, and until something does, I'll stick with the old gaurd.

    On the upside, strides are being made in mind-controlled gaming!  ;)

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by blognorg

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Originally posted by blognorg I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.
    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go. Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.
    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

    Analog sticks are inferior to mouse for turning and aiming. It doesn't matter if an analog stick is comparable to WASD because you're not going to use a mouse without some sort of keyboard. Even if that keyboard is an analog joystick with a lot of buttons.

    It only matters in FPS PvP though. For everything else it's not really that big a deal.

     

    The aiming is the weak link, not the moving. Again, I'm comparing the K&B to a controller. Nowhere did I mention a controller. Yes, the mouse is more precise; I said that in original post. The mouse is fine. Basically, my point to combine a mouse and an analog stick... until we can come up with a better control scheme.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    There's been a few times over the years I have hooked controllers up to my computer to see how it would stack up against the old standard.  The fact is, I never last longer than 15 minutes with controllers.  The reason is that they are slow and clunky.  Sure, with practice I could get a little better with it, but I don't believe they will ever be as precise as a mouse and keyboard.

    I wouldn't mind seeing something else come along.  There are gaming products that replace the actual keyboard with single-hand devices with lots of buttons, but all they are doing is making a smaller version of the same thing.

    For me, today's gamepads don't cut it, and until something does, I'll stick with the old gaurd.

    On the upside, strides are being made in mind-controlled gaming!  ;)

    I'm not directly comparing the keyboard and mouse to a controller. The msouse is objectively more precise than an analog. My point is that analog movement is superior to the four buttons. There are more directions, and control over the magnitude.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by blognorg Originally posted by Quizzical Originally posted by blognorg I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.
    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go. Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.
    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.
    Analog sticks are inferior to mouse for turning and aiming. It doesn't matter if an analog stick is comparable to WASD because you're not going to use a mouse without some sort of keyboard. Even if that keyboard is an analog joystick with a lot of buttons. It only matters in FPS PvP though. For everything else it's not really that big a deal.  
    The aiming is the weak link, not the moving. Again, I'm comparing the K&B to a controller. Nowhere did I mention a controller. Yes, the mouse is more precise; I said that in original post. The mouse is fine. Basically, my point to combine a mouse and an analog stick... until we can come up with a better control scheme.


    Take a look at the VisionTek XG6. It has 3 sticks on the mouse. It's really odd to use though. It's using Sandio's 3DOF technology.

    There's something about moving (WASD) and turning with the mouse at the same time that's really weird if you're just using the mouse. Having those two activities separated between two hands seems to work well. I'm not sure combining moving and turning with one hand works well.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • AvatarBladeAvatarBlade BucurestiPosts: 770Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by blognorg

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Originally posted by blognorg I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.
    Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go. Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.
    I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

    Analog sticks are inferior to mouse for turning and aiming. It doesn't matter if an analog stick is comparable to WASD because you're not going to use a mouse without some sort of keyboard. Even if that keyboard is an analog joystick with a lot of buttons.

    It only matters in FPS PvP though. For everything else it's not really that big a deal.

     

    The aiming is the weak link, not the moving. Again, I'm comparing the K&B to a controller. Nowhere did I mention a controller. Yes, the mouse is more precise; I said that in original post. The mouse is fine. Basically, my point to combine a mouse and an analog stick... until we can come up with a better control scheme.

    You don't only use the mouse for aiming, you also use it to give finer control to movement direction, that is not attainable with only WASD, so the analog stick isn't needed.

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

     


    Originally posted by blognorg

    Originally posted by MindTrigger There's been a few times over the years I have hooked controllers up to my computer to see how it would stack up against the old standard.  The fact is, I never last longer than 15 minutes with controllers.  The reason is that they are slow and clunky.  Sure, with practice I could get a little better with it, but I don't believe they will ever be as precise as a mouse and keyboard. I wouldn't mind seeing something else come along.  There are gaming products that replace the actual keyboard with single-hand devices with lots of buttons, but all they are doing is making a smaller version of the same thing. For me, today's gamepads don't cut it, and until something does, I'll stick with the old gaurd. On the upside, strides are being made in mind-controlled gaming!  ;)
    I'm not directly comparing the keyboard and mouse to a controller. The msouse is objectively more precise than an analog. My point is that analog movement is superior to the four buttons. There are more directions, and control over the magnitude.

    You can't just compare a keyboard to an analog stick because other then top down games, neither has full control of your movement.  

     

    More often then not a keyboard is use in conjuction with a mouse to control where you look, which controls how you move.  The same is true with an analog stick as either the game controls the camera(which always sucks) or the other analog stick does (leaving you only a couple button you can use).  

    In either way the keyboard and mouse combo beats the analog stick combo.

     

    Also you can't strafe and turn with an analog stick you can with keys. 

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

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