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The keyboard needs to be retired.

blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member

It's kind of funny how an interface device that was used for gaming out of necessity has become the norm. You'd think that at this point something better would have become the standard for PC gaming. It's an awkward, carpal tunnel-inducing nightmare. I'm looking forward to the GW2 release, and I think it's cool that they're incorporating some varied gameplay mechanics like jumping puzzles, but it's going to be horrible because of the keyboard. There's a reason why analogs have become the standard for consoles, because they are vastly superior to the four-button setup. Hell, people complain about how imprecise analogs are compared to a mouse, but that pales in comparison to a keyboard's movement in my opinion. I bought a Razer Nostromo a while back, and it's a little better, but it still suffers form only eight directions and no variance of magnitude. The worst part is that I don't even have the option for an analog at this point; they are so nonstandard that even if I wanted to use one, no MMO would support it. Hopefully, as the MMO market keeps expanding, analogs will be a new standard, and that way we'll all still be able to open pickle jars when we're sixty, and things like action combat can be more than a lofty gimmick.

 

EDIT: To clarify, this isn't a K&B vs controller thread. This has more to do with the keyboard not being designed around gaming, and I'm a little sad that we haven't come up with a better stadard. My reasons were ergonomics and limited movement scope. My gripe doesn't have nything to do with controllers, other than the fact that contollers use analog for movement.

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Comments

  • SaintGrayeSaintGraye Los Angeles, CAPosts: 109Member

    No.

    ...typically I'd say more, but that effectively sums up my thoughts on the matter. Well, that and "long live WASD!"

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,156Member

    Controller is good for combat situations (no all the times)

    Keyboard is good for everything else, like crafting, talking,.... walking for exploring with WSAD, etc

    I play mmorpgs for the everything else (at least i wish i could nowadays). I play single players for combat.

    So. No.

  • LokkjeLokkje NewcastlePosts: 6Member Uncommon

    Nope, never.

     

    Too easy to use, too convient and so much more customisable.

    Sports games are their only weakness. (Flight games are at least bareable)

  • grimm6thgrimm6th Overland Park, KSPosts: 973Member
    Originally posted by blognorg

    It's kind of funny how an interface device that was used for gaming out of necessity has become the norm. You'd think that at this point something better would have become the standard for PC gaming. It's an awkward, carpal tunnel-inducing nightmare. I'm looking forward to the GW2 release, and I think it's cool that they're incorporating some varied gameplay mechanics like jumping puzzles, but it's going to be horrible because of the keyboard. There's a reason why analogs have become the standard for consoles, because they are vastly superior to the four-button setup. Hell, people complain about how imprecise analogs are compared to a mouse, but that pales in comparison to a keyboard's movement in my opinion. I bought a Razer Nostromo a while back, and it's a little better, but it still suffers form only eight directions and no variance of magnitude. The worst part is that I don't even have the option for an analog at this point; they are so nonstandard that even if I wanted to use one, no MMO would support it. Hopefully, as the MMO market keeps expanding, analogs will be a new standard, and that way we'll all still be able to open pickle jars when we're sixty, and things like action combat can be more than a lofty gimmick.

    Analog sticks ARE more imprecise than a mouse, and movement isn't the problem, and never was.

    It is all about aiming skillshots.  How are you supposed to translate skillshot or ground targeted AoE to a controller.  No MMO even uses directional magnitude, which would have to be part of a game for controllers to be able to use it.  Same thing with the direction thing.

    Movement in MMOs isn't hard.  It doesn't suffer from a lack of precision.  It isn't like MMOs are FPS games.

    Carpal tunnle syndrome can happen with controllers too btw.

     

    You brought up the nostromo.  I have one that I got after the first BWE of GW2.  I got it so I could move while casting and not have to radically alter the keybinds I have been using for years.  I also got it so i could play on my laptop which makes it annoying to use F1-F4.  Movement isn't a problem when you are using you mouse and the thumb d-pad.  If movement and skill usage wasn't being use by the same hand (by which I mean if I had something like a razer naga) I wouldn't have bothered.

     

    So, what you want is a controller made for MMOs and a game that supports it...one that doesn't suck, and where the controller is required.

    ...tell me again why a controller is better?  (many people think action combat is a gimmick even which a controller)

    I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.

  • dorksmetaldorksmetal troy, MIPosts: 77Member

    Keyboard/Mouse VS controller in PvP

    the keyboard player will win image

    image

  • itsTortitsTort San Diego, CAPosts: 128Member

    Interesting thoughts at least. I'll disagree, gaming from a console perspective and using a controller is nice, however it simply just doesn't offer what a mouse/keyboard combo can do.

     

    If you are experiencing some carpaltunnel with your keyboard, I would highly advise you to get a different keyboard; and set up some ergonomics better.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by grimm6th
    Originally posted by blognorg

    It's kind of funny how an interface device that was used for gaming out of necessity has become the norm. You'd think that at this point something better would have become the standard for PC gaming. It's an awkward, carpal tunnel-inducing nightmare. I'm looking forward to the GW2 release, and I think it's cool that they're incorporating some varied gameplay mechanics like jumping puzzles, but it's going to be horrible because of the keyboard. There's a reason why analogs have become the standard for consoles, because they are vastly superior to the four-button setup. Hell, people complain about how imprecise analogs are compared to a mouse, but that pales in comparison to a keyboard's movement in my opinion. I bought a Razer Nostromo a while back, and it's a little better, but it still suffers form only eight directions and no variance of magnitude. The worst part is that I don't even have the option for an analog at this point; they are so nonstandard that even if I wanted to use one, no MMO would support it. Hopefully, as the MMO market keeps expanding, analogs will be a new standard, and that way we'll all still be able to open pickle jars when we're sixty, and things like action combat can be more than a lofty gimmick.

    Analog sticks ARE more imprecise than a mouse, and movement isn't the problem, and never was.

    It is all about aiming skillshots.  How are you supposed to translate skillshot or ground targeted AoE to a controller.  No MMO even uses directional magnitude, which would have to be part of a game for controllers to be able to use it.  Same thing with the direction thing.

    Movement in MMOs isn't hard.  It doesn't suffer from a lack of precision.  It isn't like MMOs are FPS games.

    Carpal tunnle syndrome can happen with controllers too btw.

     

    You brought up the nostromo.  I have one that I got after the first BWE of GW2.  I got it so I could move while casting and not have to radically alter the keybinds I have been using for years.  I also got it so i could play on my laptop which makes it annoying to use F1-F4.  Movement isn't a problem when you are using you mouse and the thumb d-pad.  If movement and skill usage wasn't being use by the same hand (by which I mean if I had something like a razer naga) I wouldn't have bothered.

     

    So, what you want is a controller made for MMOs and a game that supports it...one that doesn't suck, and where the controller is required.

    ...tell me again why a controller is better?  (many people think action combat is a gimmick even which a controller)

    I never said that an analog was more precise than a mouse. I suppose I could have worded that a little better. My point was the people compare the mouse an analog, while I was comparing the keyboard an analog. Yes, the mouse is more precise than an analog. 

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by ItsGopher

    Interesting thoughts at least. I'll disagree, gaming from a console perspective and using a controller is nice, however it simply just doesn't offer what a mouse/keyboard combo can do.

     

    If you are experiencing some carpaltunnel with your keyboard, I would highly advise you to get a different keyboard; and set up some ergonomics better.

    That's the main reason why I got a nostromo, and it is a lot better. I wasn't arguing that a mouse has much higher precision than an analog, because, well... that can't really be argued. I'm arguing that analogs are more precise than WASD. I've tried seveal games on my PC with both a controller and a keyboard, and games that require a lot of precise movement are much better with a gamepad. I'm not saying that people can't be good with a keyboard, but objectively analogs are better. You can have more directions, and have varying degrees of magnitude. Just because someone can't utilize those functions, it doesn't make them inferior.

  • PudsyPudsy Big OnePosts: 34Member

    the keyboard is the win, why change the best... you can't handle the mirco :D

  • PudsyPudsy Big OnePosts: 34Member

    also... tera is a MMO and it support the controller... and its horrible

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blognorg

    It's an awkward, carpal tunnel-inducing nightmare.

    For ergonomics, a keyboard with two hands on the keyboard in the normal typing position might be the best thing there is.  A gamepad might be better.  A mouse is much, much worse.  I'm very skeptical that any sort of touch screen mechanics would be ergonomically better than a mouse, either.

    The reason a mouse has to be used for some purposes is that it's the only way to get precise analog controls.  A mouse lets you click on the exact pixel you want, or reliably be off by no more than a few pixels even if you have to move the pointer all the way across the screen in a fraction of a second.  A thumbstick lets you vaguely move in the right general direction, but makes precise movements impossible.  A touchpad is basically an extremely clumsy mouse.

    There is no substitute for a keyboard for communication.  This is a site for multiplayer games, you know.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Pudsy

    the keyboard is the win, why change the best... you can't handle the mirco :D

    Micro? Like, micromanaging? :-/

  • ululaulula amiensPosts: 33Member Uncommon

    new mmo should be gamepad compatible so everybody can choose how he want to play.

    IMO GW2 with gamepad compatibility will be awesome ( other thread about it  )

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by blognorg

    It's an awkward, carpal tunnel-inducing nightmare.

    For ergonomics, a keyboard with two hands on the keyboard in the normal typing position might be the best thing there is.  A gamepad might be better.  A mouse is much, much worse.  I'm very skeptical that any sort of touch screen mechanics would be ergonomically better than a mouse, either.

    The reason a mouse has to be used for some purposes is that it's the only way to get precise analog controls.  A mouse lets you click on the exact pixel you want, or reliably be off by no more than a few pixels even if you have to move the pointer all the way across the screen in a fraction of a second.  A thumbstick lets you vaguely move in the right general direction, but makes precise movements impossible.  A touchpad is basically an extremely clumsy mouse.

    There is no substitute for a keyboard for communication.  This is a site for multiplayer games, you know.

    I'm not telling everying to defenestrate their keybords or anything. As it stands now, there are peripherals that people use (like the Nostromo) but still use the keyboard for typing. I'm just saying that I'm a little surprised that there hasen't been a stadardized gaming devices. You know, one that has gaming in mind for its design, unlike the keyboard. I'm not claiming that the keyboard doesn't do the job most of the time, but I think that we can do better.

  • gainesvilleggainesvilleg Gainesville, FLPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by blognorg

    It's kind of funny how an interface device that was used for gaming out of necessity has become the norm. You'd think that at this point something better would have become the standard for PC gaming. It's an awkward, carpal tunnel-inducing nightmare. I'm looking forward to the GW2 release, and I think it's cool that they're incorporating some varied gameplay mechanics like jumping puzzles, but it's going to be horrible because of the keyboard. There's a reason why analogs have become the standard for consoles, because they are vastly superior to the four-button setup. Hell, people complain about how imprecise analogs are compared to a mouse, but that pales in comparison to a keyboard's movement in my opinion. I bought a Razer Nostromo a while back, and it's a little better, but it still suffers form only eight directions and no variance of magnitude. The worst part is that I don't even have the option for an analog at this point; they are so nonstandard that even if I wanted to use one, no MMO would support it. Hopefully, as the MMO market keeps expanding, analogs will be a new standard, and that way we'll all still be able to open pickle jars when we're sixty, and things like action combat can be more than a lofty gimmick.

    Actually keyboard/mouse isn't a problem and mouse almost always beats controller when testing FPS aiming effectiveness for instance.  HOWEVER, I have switched much of my gaming to xbox when that is possible because chillin' in my media room in my recliner surrounded by 7.1 dolby and staring at a 3D 80 inch TV completely compensates me for the decreased fidelity in my controller and lack of mod support.  Plus some of my friends dont have good gaming PCs (I do though).

    PC for me is primarily strategy games these days.  MMOs too but it wont be long (next generation consoles) before consoles take over MMO games as well in my opinion like they have for FPS games (GW2 for instance is tailor made for console controller and Anet is planning a console version).  Not sure if/when strategy games will move to consoles but my guess is not for a long time as the mouse is completely indespensible for strategy games right now.  We'll see how clever the controller is in the next gen console though, rumours of touchscreen enabled controllers makes me wonder if they will be good enough for strategy games...

    GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
    1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
    2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by ulula

    new mmo should be gamepad compatible so everybody can choose how he want to play

    I agree. However, there would be a huge backlash from people that don't like controller, claiming that game has been "dumbed down". The way I see it is that a game should be designed with the experience in mind, then design the interface for whatever device you want to use. There are a lot of ways around the imprecise nature of an analog for aiming. Auto target is a common, and convenient, solution to that. I played through the second GW2 beta weekend with a controller, and even the ground targetting wasn't that bad. 

  • SaintGrayeSaintGraye Los Angeles, CAPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by ulula

    new mmo should be gamepad compatible so everybody can choose how he want to play

    Terrible idea, mate, as demonstrated aptly by myriad console-to-PC-ports. Ultimately, the PC is hampered by the restrictions of a controller-based interface. The only means of alleviating this is, and always has been, to design two unique control-schemes, one for a controller, one for mouse+keyboard. Naturally enough, that has its own downside: in competitive aspects, the latter tends to have a distinct advantage.

    It's for this very reason that, for instance, multi-platform FPS games do not host console-gamers on the same server as their PC players: the controller-bound players will be slaughtered, every time. I've already stomached more than enough complaints from various fronts concerning PvP (for example) against individuals with custom gaming keyboards or a high-end mouse, to say nothing of arguments over the validity of using macros. You're arguing in favor of something, potentially, even more divisive: pitting players with two radically distinct controls-methods against one another.

  • zinnikeyszinnikeys Chesapeake, VAPosts: 44Member

    I retired my controller over 14 years ago.

  • JohabohaJohaboha Madison, WIPosts: 20Member

    Go play FFXIV that game was built for using a controller, enjoy....

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon

    I love these posts where console guys try to justify their inability or lack of willpower to learn how to properly use a keyboard and mouse for gaming.

    The ONLY time i would ever want a controller for a game is for a pure fighting games.  Sports games are so so, its kind of 6 of one half a dozen of the other.  Outside of that, any other game is vastly better with a mouse and keyboard, and some styles of games are completely impossible to play on a console, like RTS games.  Well, RTS games that aren't ultra dumbed down i mean.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by zinnikeys

    I retired my controller over 14 years ago.

    I'm not talking about K&B vs controllers. 

  • pierthpierth San Antonio, TXPosts: 1,503Member


    Originally posted by blognorg
    I'm not telling everything to defenestrate their keyboards or anything. As it stands now, there are peripherals that people use (like the Nostromo) but still use the keyboard for typing. I'm just saying that I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been a standardized gaming devices. You know, one that has gaming in mind for its design, unlike the keyboard. I'm not claiming that the keyboard doesn't do the job most of the time, but I think that we can do better

    There are standardized gaming devices, like the Nostromo and others. The thing is they don't come factory direct with PCs like keyboards do and they just aren't as popular. Not everyone cares enough to buy gaming specific peripherals when the standard keyboard and mouse work.

    EDIT: actually, on second thought, the standard is the keyboard because every PC gamer has one. There are specialty devices such as the Nostromo because other gamers like you don't see the keyboard as good enough, while a great many others do.

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    I honestly couldn't imagine having to chat with a controller. While Ventrillo is cool, I don't always feel like logging into it and if I am wandering around and meet someone, I am not going to give out the vent password to a stranger.

    So unless there is no chatting in the MMO, I don't see how you are going to make the game better without a keyboard.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    I love these posts where console guys try to justify their inability or lack of willpower to learn how to properly use a keyboard and mouse for gaming.

    The ONLY time i would ever want a controller for a game is for a pure fighting games.  Sports games are so so, its kind of 6 of one half a dozen of the other.  Outside of that, any other game is vastly better with a mouse and keyboard, and some styles of games are completely impossible to play on a console, like RTS games.  Well, RTS games that aren't ultra dumbed down i mean.

    I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

  • BrainDeadGBrainDeadG Houston, TXPosts: 30Member

    Hmm makes me wonder why some guys off Halo are so skilled using a controller? They still have to aim and fight one another in PVP combat.

    GW2 interface is pretty much set-up that it can be used with a controller with all the pre-made skills. Maybe it'll fix that crazy camera angles.

     

    I've suggested it on their official forums, you might want to suggest it as well too OP.

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