Time makes you better at everything...So that is a mute point.
Do you think Michael Jordan was just amazing at basketball day one and could dunk from the free throw line out the gate? No it took intense training and practice for years and years. Sure he was naturally gifted in basketball but time and practice improved that gift to make him the player he became.
So yes time can be skill. But there are naturally good video game players as well. My little brother for example jumps on games now, he's four and destroys them. Where as I have seen 20-30 year olds sit down at the same game for the first time and be completely stumped.
Games have more dynamics to them then other things as well. You could be amazing at one genre of gaming (FPS) but completely blow at MMO's or RTS. Even genre's have sub categories. You could be amazing in WoW, but jump into Tera and get completely annihilated. Grasping mechanics are a big part of this, and I have seen so many people just never learn them.
An example, I hadn't played an FPS in years (since original unreal) and jumped into an FPS/Medieval simulator for the first time and destroyed people that had been playing the game for months on end.
There is natural skill in games, just like there is natural skill in everything else. That skill improves with time, just like everything else.
There are people arguing the usefullness of this skill... and it can be if you become a professional gamer or just enjoy gaming in general. How useful would being the next Michael Jordan if you never played basketball... or being the next Bruce Lee if you never acted/practiced martial arts etc....Every skill set has there place..its just few ever get the chance to use those in a professional environment.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Wait... I thought the whole point of getting rid of the trinity was that everything would be so easy even a bunch of DPSers could manage it alone ?
Honestly, I'd ask if people aren't sick of the whole "This is a game for mature and intelligent people, unlike every other game on the planet" schtick, but clearly that isn't, and, sadly, probably never will be, the case.
Excuse whiners will always think of other excuses to hide behind when they get wiped. "Lag, glitches, the dog ate my mouse cord, etc.), so this is just one less excuse.
I think weak sPVP players will simply stay out of sPVP and if they do any PVP it will be in WvW. I have been playing FPS and MMORPG's with sPVP style PVP for years, and I still have terrible sPVP skills.
I love how GW2 has totally leveled the playing field with sPVP by removing the gear grind, however, I have a feeling I will not be a GW2 sPVP regular.
My self and many other players who are either not attracted to or poorly skilled at sPVP will simply avoid it and will almost never visit that part of the game. Fortunenately GW2 does not seem to be forcing players to take part in sPVP.
This is unlike some other MMORPG's like Anarchy Online, which have a terrible history of a) having most players not take part in the battlestation PVP (like sPVP) and b) various failed attempts to force/motivate unwilling players into sPVP. It appears GW2 is not going to repeat those kinds of mistakes.
In my opinion PVP skill is alot like being a guitar virtuoso. Some people, like Jimi Hendrix, can pick up a guitar the first time and naturally start firing off cool licks and chords. Other people like myself, can can take years of lessons and practice daily, and be barely competent at playing Louie Louie. When ever I try sPVP in various games, it's always the same 'be someone else's punching bag' feeling.
I think more people like myself who are not excellent or even competent PVP players (hand eye coordination and thinking fast on your feet DO count here) are more likely to take part in WvW.
WvW provides more opportunities to utilize strategy, cunning, treachery, deception, stealth and other methods that are not dependent on top notch phsysical skills. I am looking forward to WvW in GW2 as it is more the type of PVP where I feel like I can have fun and not be a punching bag.
My self and many other players who are either not attracted to or poorly skilled at sPVP will simply avoid it and will almost never visit that part of the game. Fortunenately GW2 does not seem to be forcing players to take part in sPVP.
That's why I think GW2 did structured PvP right in yet another way.
They made structured PvP serverwide, and therefore populated by ALL the people playing the game. That means they don't need to motivate people on every server to play it... just enough motivation to have people playing it overall.
It doesn't progress your character in any way, or give out significant PvE rewards.
Honestly, so far as the game goes, they give WAY more motivation to play WvW (Level up, gain skills, have your character become better, improve your world), while sPvP is focused specifically on people whose goal is to test their skills against other players.
Which hey, I think that's a good way to divide it personally. It's a good way to not have instanced PvP kill off your open, multiplayer PvP. (Having really great rewards in instanced PvP forces more people out of the game world)
According to your definition ANYTHING is a skill, and that's true I guess, but some skills matter and some don't, your l33tness in an mmorpg isn't one of those that matter.
Finally I can agree with you (except that its not his definition, its THE definition)
One can be skilled at almost any endeavor. If there is a difference in performance between one who has just started and one who has practiced for some amount of time then it is something in which one can be skilled.
Of course most skills do not matter at all beyond their own context. WIthin the context of PvP in GW1 a Monk player who could read the enemy team in order to cast his protection spells on the member of his own team before the enermy team delivered their time on target combined damage spike was very important.
But outside of that context ?
Who gives a F**K.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Of course most skills do not matter at all beyond their own context. WIthin the context of PvP in GW1 a Monk player who could read the enemy team in order to cast his protection spells on the member of his own team before the enermy team delivered their time on target combined damage spike was very important.
But outside of that context ?
Who gives a F**K.
This gives an interesting point. Just because a skill can be relatively useless, does not mean anybody can have it. Usefulness of a skill does not directly correlate to ease of accquiring it.
There are many incredibly important skills like 'breathing without drowning in your own spit', conversationally using your native language or 'walking in a straight line' that are incredibly easy to master (Not everybody does, sadly).
There are other skills that very few people have, that are completely useless for all intents and purposes. Like being able to triple curl your tongue, or to bend your wrist back so that your fingers touch your forearm or to spin an egg for longer than anybody else.
MMOs are full of mostly irrelevant skills, but that does not mean they are easy to accquire. Some of the most difficult parts are proper usage of positioning, reading tells, identifying all skills at a glance, and so on. Some of these require literally fractions of a second of response time, and many people simply don't respond to ANYTHING that fast other than maybe pulling their hand out of a fire.
Of course most skills do not matter at all beyond their own context. WIthin the context of PvP in GW1 a Monk player who could read the enemy team in order to cast his protection spells on the member of his own team before the enermy team delivered their time on target combined damage spike was very important.
But outside of that context ?
Who gives a F**K.
This gives an interesting point. Just because a skill can be relatively useless, does not mean anybody can have it. Usefulness of a skill does not directly correlate to ease of accquiring it.
There are many incredibly important skills like 'breathing without drowning in your own spit', conversationally using your native language or 'walking in a straight line' that are incredibly easy to master (Not everybody does, sadly).
There are other skills that very few people have, that are completely useless for all intents and purposes. Like being able to triple curl your tongue, or to bend your wrist back so that your fingers touch your forearm or to spin an egg for longer than anybody else.
MMOs are full of mostly irrelevant skills, but that does not mean they are easy to accquire. Some of the most difficult parts are proper usage of positioning, reading tells, identifying all skills at a glance, and so on. Some of these require literally fractions of a second of response time, and many people simply don't respond to ANYTHING that fast other than maybe pulling their hand out of a fire.
Its not just MMOs that are full of mostly irrelevant skills. Life, the real world, is full of mostly irrelevant skills.
I am a member of the first generation of my family in the United States not born on a cattle ranch. The first generation born in a hospital rather than delivered on the family ranch.
I grew up, learning to ride, shoot, track, hunt, etc. I owned my first horse at age 5, my first rifle at 6.
My family sold off the property when I was in my teens. I have lived in an Urban or Suburban area ever since. All of those things I learned growing up are essentially irrelevant in the modern world.
But they are still learned skills. I think that the 'learned' point is important. Being double-jointed (bending your wrist back) may not be a skill if its something that you don't have to learn how to do.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I am a member of the first generation of my family in the United States not born on a cattle ranch. The first generation born in a hospital rather than delivered on the family ranch.
I grew up, learning to ride, shoot, track, hunt, etc. I owned my first horse at age 5, my first rifle at 6.
My family sold off the property when I was in my teens. I have lived in an Urban or Suburban area ever since. All of those things I learned growing up are essentially irrelevant in the modern world.
But they are still learned skills. I think that the 'learned' point is important. Being double-jointed (bending your wrist back) may not be a skill if its something that you don't have to learn how to do.
I think you and the guy you're replying to are undervaluing the general areas these skills influence a bit... Learning to ride and shoot would affect other areas. There's not necessarily a direct transfer from skill to skill, but you are probably a bit stronger in some areas than you would have been otherwise, or have some spatial awareness skills, or w/e. Generally, most skills can be useful in some way.
So are you ready to admit that gaming takes skill yet?
In the same way that sitting on a couch takes skill, yes.
Sad.
true, it is just as important and only slightly less difficult.
and what do you say about the people that make a living playing games in Korea. Are they not skilled at the trade they have chosen to go into? Does it not provide ample lump sums of money for them? Would that skill not be important to them on a personal level? Surely these people didn't just go to a tournament never having played the game they were competing in and win first prize. Or how about the people who have made millions selling online commodities for real money. Is there not skill involved in that?
Fine, fine, fine mmorpgs require tons of skill, anyone that doesn't play according to the mmorpgs code of orthodoxy is a bad and should be ostricized, this is as important a field of human endeavor as there is! Happy?
You were the one in an earlier post that pointed out athletes making money from the sport they play. Just don't see how an esport, guitar or anything that has to be learned through time, patience and dedication is any different.
esport....made up term, comparing it to a real sport is insulting to the participants who put their blood sweat and tears in it, I assume you've never taken part in competitive athletics?(honest question) And how much patience and dedication does it take to farm goblins utilizing a few keybinds and mouse movement, how is that at all equivelant to making music/art etc?
I assume you've never taken part in a good competive chess game.
Critcal think!
Running a guild can help develope leadership skills and someone can defently relate it to running a business.
Yes, I understand that there are those who like to whip out how skilled they are and show it off. If you played any competive sports you would know that as well. Though, most of these MMO's do require a great deal of multitasking.
But hey, you seem like a pretty smart cat, maybe you'll figure it out one day.
Let me start off by saying im looking forward to a skill based game. No more hearing "you suck baddie, your geared out". But I was wondering how the unskilled population (probably 35%) would take the game.
Now everyone has been in a guild where you got a few unskilled players (downright horrible) in the guild at pvp. Of course you would never say that to them or hurt there feelings but you still think it. Well alot of them can still be commited to the game and work hard to get gear because they really want to be better but unfortunatly you can only learn so much "skill" the rest is pretty much flat out talent for games. I feel like it does hurt those players alot because they are kinda stuck in that no mans land. At least if they got gear they could become almost average and contribute to a team and feel like they arn't as bad as they are (kinda a false sense of acheivement) but its going to be hard for them if they have no way getting better.
Whats everyone's thoughts on this? Will it force the "unskilled" players out of the game?
[mod edit] It does NOT matter how skillful they are as long as THEY enjoy what THEY are doing. They purchased the game to have fun NOT to log in and seek your approval on how well they play. Your type of attitude has made MMORPG's into the gotta-be-better-than-anyone-else trash heaps that they are today. Let them progress at their own speed, gear up as they can and group with people they may actually enjoy grouping up with. You play the way you want to and let them do the same.
Let me start off by saying im looking forward to a skill based game. No more hearing "you suck baddie, your geared out". But I was wondering how the unskilled population (probably 35%) would take the game.
Now everyone has been in a guild where you got a few unskilled players (downright horrible) in the guild at pvp. Of course you would never say that to them or hurt there feelings but you still think it. Well alot of them can still be commited to the game and work hard to get gear because they really want to be better but unfortunatly you can only learn so much "skill" the rest is pretty much flat out talent for games. I feel like it does hurt those players alot because they are kinda stuck in that no mans land. At least if they got gear they could become almost average and contribute to a team and feel like they arn't as bad as they are (kinda a false sense of acheivement) but its going to be hard for them if they have no way getting better.
Whats everyone's thoughts on this? Will it force the "unskilled" players out of the game?
[mod edit] It does NOT matter how skillful they are as long as THEY enjoy what THEY are doing. They purchased the game to have fun NOT to log in and seek your approval on how well they play. Your type of attitude has made MMORPG's into the gotta-be-better-than-anyone-else trash heaps that they are today. Let them progress at their own speed, gear up as they can and group with people they may actually enjoy grouping up with. You play the way you want to and let them do the same.
Im not sure where all this anger or whatever came from.......The question was if unskilled players would fine joy in the game without anyway to progress......It has nothing to do with me nor show any egotistical on my part......As you said and i quote "It does NOT matter how skillful they are as long as THEY enjoy what THEY are doing".....now my post is asking if THEY will still enjoy playing after GEAR is taking out.......
you skimmed over what I said but didn't really let it sink in......
Its a discussion, and you don't HAVE to be apart of it....And you need to take down that defensive wall and stop taking things personal......This is a discussion not a "Your mean, i hate you, your not nice" thread
Wait... I thought the whole point of getting rid of the trinity was that everything would be so easy even a bunch of DPSers could manage it alone ?
Honestly, I'd ask if people aren't sick of the whole "This is a game for mature and intelligent people, unlike every other game on the planet" schtick, but clearly that isn't, and, sadly, probably never will be, the case.
No, here were teh reasons for "getting rid" of the trinity (which they haven't quite done, but we'll hold that aisde)
1) No telling a friend/guilidie he can't go with you unless he rolls a healer.
2) No sitting there for hours waiting for a tank to queue.
3) No game mechanics where one person (the tank) is responsible for keeping the mobs under control, one person (the healer never even sees the fight but constantly states at health bars), and The rest (dps) just stand there and spam attacks until things fall down.
While I realize there's only so much realism you can have in a game, I want you to think of a real squad of soldiers in a combat zone. While each might have their own skills they are better at, none are forced into one "role". Maybe one minute Soldier A is drawing fire away from the group. Soldier B might have to do it later. Soldier C might be the team medic, but in a pinch anyone had better be able to provide first aid. Soldier D might be the heavy weapons guy, but that doens't mean C can't pick up an LMG and supress. Every teammate has to do every job, and every teammate is equally responsible for the health of the team, the defeat of the enemy, and the control of the situation. No one gets to slack off because that's "not their job". That's the core of GW2's philosophy on team makeup from what I can see, and I'm all for it.
Fortunately due to the nature of WvWvW, your team is almost always going to be better of with someone than without them...even if they aren't any good. I think there's caps on how many can be playing at once but it's very high, unlike sPvP where there's very limited spots and a crappy player will truly drag the team down.
Ditto for PVE actually, you can just jump in on those world events when you see people around and it's fine.
Fortunately due to the nature of WvWvW, your team is almost always going to be better of with someone than without them...even if they aren't any good. I think there's caps on how many can be playing at once but it's very high, unlike sPvP where there's very limited spots and a crappy player will truly drag the team down.
Ditto for PVE actually, you can just jump in on those world events when you see people around and it's fine.
This is a big problem though isn't it? What will be the fun of PVE if you can just ride along the zerg and get it done without really doing anything? Is there any point to PVE when that is how it works?
What they really should have done with Dynamic events is have competing groups fighting for different outcomes (e.g., one group wants the Orcs to win, the other group tries to stop them).
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
This is a big problem though isn't it? What will be the fun of PVE if you can just ride along the zerg and get it done without really doing anything? Is there any point to PVE when that is how it works?
What they really should have done with Dynamic events is have competing groups fighting for different outcomes (e.g., one group wants the Orcs to win, the other group tries to stop them).
I don't see how it is a problem in that particular case. I personally do not like zergs, so I try to find events that are lacking people. When you have just 3 people the events are much harder and you can't zerg them. Even then, a lot of zerged events weren't that easy. People kept screwing up on the Flame Shaman all day.
I find your comment funny since, despite the zergs, GW2 is still much harder in PvE content than most standard MMO's out there... you're just chasing after someone's semantics here, have you played the game?
I don't think there will be that many zergs in the end, really. Population will distribute more and you may have a few players per event. I think the point he's trying to make, though, is that the events aren't maximized in the sense that you have to do everything absolutely right to succeed. You don't have to do a ton of preparation to start playing and having fun (even if that includes dying). Maximized gameplay is left to the dungeons.
Yes, there's a point to PvE when that's how it works. Maybe not for you.
And, no, they shouldn't have done that. That sounds incredibly stupid. Yeah, I am really just going to help centaurs destroy my own village. Not to mention, adding competition to PvE, the very thing ANet wanted to avoid. Do you even know what game this is? EVE online is that way.
Let me start off by saying im looking forward to a skill based game. No more hearing "you suck baddie, your geared out". But I was wondering how the unskilled population (probably 35%) would take the game.
Now everyone has been in a guild where you got a few unskilled players (downright horrible) in the guild at pvp. Of course you would never say that to them or hurt there feelings but you still think it. Well alot of them can still be commited to the game and work hard to get gear because they really want to be better but unfortunatly you can only learn so much "skill" the rest is pretty much flat out talent for games. I feel like it does hurt those players alot because they are kinda stuck in that no mans land. At least if they got gear they could become almost average and contribute to a team and feel like they arn't as bad as they are (kinda a false sense of acheivement) but its going to be hard for them if they have no way getting better.
Whats everyone's thoughts on this? Will it force the "unskilled" players out of the game?
Define "unskilled"please. I cant see how gw2 needs more skilled players than other games. Well if you need to be very skilled to run around like a moran casting few spells then it might need skilled players. Comparing this game with other games there you need to know loads of different spells to be abel to suport your group needs more know how than gw2 wich is more action based.
This is a big problem though isn't it? What will be the fun of PVE if you can just ride along the zerg and get it done without really doing anything? Is there any point to PVE when that is how it works?
What they really should have done with Dynamic events is have competing groups fighting for different outcomes (e.g., one group wants the Orcs to win, the other group tries to stop them).
I don't see how it is a problem in that particular case. I personally do not like zergs, so I try to find events that are lacking people. When you have just 3 people the events are much harder and you can't zerg them. Even then, a lot of zerged events weren't that easy. People kept screwing up on the Flame Shaman all day.
I find your comment funny since, despite the zergs, GW2 is still much harder in PvE content than most standard MMO's out there... you're just chasing after someone's semantics here, have you played the game?
I don't think there will be that many zergs in the end, really. Population will distribute more and you may have a few players per event. I think the point he's trying to make, though, is that the events aren't maximized in the sense that you have to do everything absolutely right to succeed. You don't have to do a ton of preparation to start playing and having fun (even if that includes dying). Maximized gameplay is left to the dungeons.
Yes, there's a point to PvE when that's how it works. Maybe not for you.
And, no, they shouldn't have done that. That sounds incredibly stupid. Yeah, I am really just going to help centaurs destroy my own village. Not to mention, adding competition to PvE, the very thing ANet wanted to avoid. Do you even know what game this is? EVE online is that way.
I get that philosophy, and I get why some don't like competition. But I think competition is fun so I have a disagreement on that Anet philosophy (along with a few other of their philosophies AKA my signature). But I do agree that over time the zerg aspect will probably go away. But for the first month or so it will be zerg central I'm thinking.
With Rift the dynamic events were so common that eventually I was doing some of them myself. But of course with Rift (on a PVP server) you had to worry about getting stabbed in the back while closing one which I thought made it so much more fun. But then again I'm a PVPer at heart and like that.
I get that GW2 PVE is very casual and there is nothing wrong with that. Casuals need games too. Just not really my cup of tea...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I wonder if putting on shoes in the morning counts as a skill too?
I might retract that statement after I give this game a fair test this coming beta weekend.
Probably will. Unless, of course, you put on your shoes while simultaneously fending off a ninja and an archer by running in circles tossing rocks. Mad props if that is how you put shoes on though.
I wonder if putting on shoes in the morning counts as a skill too?
I might retract that statement after I give this game a fair test this coming beta weekend.
Probably will. Unless, of course, you put on your shoes while simultaneously fending off a ninja and an archer by running in circles tossing rocks. Mad props if that is how you put shoes on though.
Even without the ninja, if somebody stood over you and timed how long it took you to put on and tie your shoes, and you compete against others for the fastest time, you will soon see there is actually significant skill involved if you want to be the best.
To be the best at ANYTHING takes skill. It's a fact. And like I've told my kids who sometimes ask "Can you make money doing ______?" I usually respond that if you are the BEST in the WORLD than yes, you just might be able to make money doing that (even though its safer to just be good at something even average people can make money at).
For example Tony Hawk once asked the same thing of his parents and thankfully for him they didn't discourage him. Yes, it turns out being the best skateboarder in the world can make you millions...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Comparing this game with other games there you need to know loads of different spells to be abel to suport your group needs more know how than gw2 wich is more action based.
This may be true for some games, but for games like WoW, it is not the case. Since WotLK, 90% of the game became very braindead. Leveling is very braindead. Low level instances are a joke even if you're a tank (god forbid you have heirlooms. I didn't have any, I had no prior tanking experience (nada), and I still found instances incredibly easy), never mind DPS. This continued all the way to max level. I don't know what skill you're talking about.
Rift is a bit different, but I can't say I found Rift difficult, either. TERA was also reportedly stupidly easy. What is this difficult game you speak of?
Maybe there was some skill in WoW PvP, but being gated by levels and gear makes it worthless. Heirlooms and twinks in my battlegrounds!
Difficulty scaling really doesn't have anything to do with how many buttons you have or how action based a game is. StarCraft is an action based game, it requires a lot of skill both on the cerebral and reflexive level. Thing is, if your game is so easy that you do not need those 50+ buttons, it doesn't matter that they're there, nobody is going to use them, people coming from those games will not be expecting a challenge.
GW2 is not, by any means, a simple game at all. Yes, it's more action based than WoW. I do not see how that makes it easier. You underestimate how much WoW was influenced by rotation schemes and the Trinity, which ultimate made the game much, much dumber than it could have been. And here's what you have to consider in GW2:
- 8 classes, obviously you have to know what they are, what the enemy can do, but most MMO's have this;
- each class has weapon choices. Each weapon is 5 skills, Elementalist weapons have 20. Most classes can swap weapons, which means they have 10 weapon skills; the swap mechanic is a separate thing with a potential cooldown that must be considered. This includes attunement swaps;
- skills in GW2 are very different from skills in most MMORPG's. WoW & Clones tend to have rather simple abilities. "This is damage". "This is a heal". "This is a CC." It's often very sterile. A typical interrupt doesn't deal any damage, for instance. There are some exceptions, but by and large, such are the skills, which is why there's so much more of them (similarly, GW1 had a lot of skills since, for instance, it had a separate skill for removing every condition in the game). In GW2, those are just effects. GW2 skills, on the other hand, are often mixed abilities, such as an attack with a blind, an attack that heals you, a jump and whirl, a boomerang with AoE explosion, an AoE divided into 5 pieces with a bleed, an attack that changes damage depending on how far away you are;
- besides weapon skills, all classes have 5 utility skills. Many of these utility skills change your weapon skills (such as engineer skills and stuff like conjured weapons). Some of them have secondary effects; + you have some profession specific skills like burst skills, death shroud, virtues, ranger pet, steal
- combos give skills another layer. Not only are skills mixes of damage, control, area of effect, etc., they are also often fields or finishers. A skill that does damage and is a projectile is different from a damage skill that's a blast or from a damage skill that is nothing; different fields are different from each other, so fire is not equivalent to water;
- on top of this, you have traits. The lines themselves are not terribly interesting, although do provide some significant changes here and there, but the actual traits themselves can result in some drastic changes across your build. Traits can affect all sorts of things like weapon swapping, dodging, classes of skills, prof mechanics;
- combining all this information to design a good build for your character is no easy task. Keeping track of all the details in your build once you have one isn't, either. Properly sequencing them, reacting to the right situation, keeping track of the cooldowns, etc.
Then, after all this, on top of this, you have to worry about movement, where you are, where the enemy is, LoS (not like WoW doesn't have that, you know), dodging at the right moment, hitting with your spells, etc.
I don't really see where GW2 is simpler than your standard MMORPG. Except it has a significantly harder PvE and non-gated PvP (which means more competition).
I agree that playing a video game requires skills. Some have mentioned macros and key binding, but I don't see these as being the skills that are required to be good. The skills to be good at video games I would say are
1- hand eye coordination - because yes, milliseconds do make a difference in video games.
2- the ability to multi task - you must be able to handle multiple tasks efficiently to be successful.
3- most important I think- the ability to think under pressure.
Those three are the "skills" that I think the best players have and I consider them to be true skills. Having said that, I also feel that it is not jusat a matter of a "fail" player practicing and learning and becoming an elite player. If you don't possess all 3 of the above in good quantities you have no hope of being successful in online gaming IMO.
I know this as fact from the days I played the old Age of Empires. I truly wanted to be good at that game, and learned as much as I could about units and tactics and such. But when I tried to put it to use against merely average players, I failed miserably. As soon as the conflict started my mind would freeze. I would focus on one thing and forget another. I was too slow in execution, both in figuring out a response, and in actually implementing it. I finally had to admit that I would never have a chance of being anything more than slightly below average at the game. I certainly had fun with that game though because I found a great group of people that enjoyed playing for fun!
Now granted Age was a much deeper and more complex PvP game than most MMO's are, in my opinion. Games like GW2 PvP I don't have quite as much respect for the skill involved.
I think this is the point King Gator was making. There are skills and there are "skills!". All of the above skills I mentioned apply here but I think they are dumbed down considerably from most types of RTS games. So if you consider being good at PvP in GW2 a major skill then good on you. You would certainly kick my ass.
But it is still just a computer game and in the end no one really cares except maybe your online buddies. So maybe we shouldn't be making it out to be more important than it is. If you are good, it is because you were born with the above 3 skills. Not everyone is the same, and you should not expect them to be.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Comments
Time makes you better at everything...So that is a mute point.
Do you think Michael Jordan was just amazing at basketball day one and could dunk from the free throw line out the gate? No it took intense training and practice for years and years. Sure he was naturally gifted in basketball but time and practice improved that gift to make him the player he became.
So yes time can be skill. But there are naturally good video game players as well. My little brother for example jumps on games now, he's four and destroys them. Where as I have seen 20-30 year olds sit down at the same game for the first time and be completely stumped.
Games have more dynamics to them then other things as well. You could be amazing at one genre of gaming (FPS) but completely blow at MMO's or RTS. Even genre's have sub categories. You could be amazing in WoW, but jump into Tera and get completely annihilated. Grasping mechanics are a big part of this, and I have seen so many people just never learn them.
An example, I hadn't played an FPS in years (since original unreal) and jumped into an FPS/Medieval simulator for the first time and destroyed people that had been playing the game for months on end.
There is natural skill in games, just like there is natural skill in everything else. That skill improves with time, just like everything else.
There are people arguing the usefullness of this skill... and it can be if you become a professional gamer or just enjoy gaming in general. How useful would being the next Michael Jordan if you never played basketball... or being the next Bruce Lee if you never acted/practiced martial arts etc....Every skill set has there place..its just few ever get the chance to use those in a professional environment.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Wait... I thought the whole point of getting rid of the trinity was that everything would be so easy even a bunch of DPSers could manage it alone
?
Honestly, I'd ask if people aren't sick of the whole "This is a game for mature and intelligent people, unlike every other game on the planet" schtick, but clearly that isn't, and, sadly, probably never will be, the case.
I got bad news for lots of you. It is not you who decide if you have skill, if you do everyone knows it.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
Excuse whiners will always think of other excuses to hide behind when they get wiped. "Lag, glitches, the dog ate my mouse cord, etc.), so this is just one less excuse.
I think weak sPVP players will simply stay out of sPVP and if they do any PVP it will be in WvW. I have been playing FPS and MMORPG's with sPVP style PVP for years, and I still have terrible sPVP skills.
I love how GW2 has totally leveled the playing field with sPVP by removing the gear grind, however, I have a feeling I will not be a GW2 sPVP regular.
My self and many other players who are either not attracted to or poorly skilled at sPVP will simply avoid it and will almost never visit that part of the game. Fortunenately GW2 does not seem to be forcing players to take part in sPVP.
This is unlike some other MMORPG's like Anarchy Online, which have a terrible history of a) having most players not take part in the battlestation PVP (like sPVP) and b) various failed attempts to force/motivate unwilling players into sPVP. It appears GW2 is not going to repeat those kinds of mistakes.
In my opinion PVP skill is alot like being a guitar virtuoso. Some people, like Jimi Hendrix, can pick up a guitar the first time and naturally start firing off cool licks and chords. Other people like myself, can can take years of lessons and practice daily, and be barely competent at playing Louie Louie. When ever I try sPVP in various games, it's always the same 'be someone else's punching bag' feeling.
I think more people like myself who are not excellent or even competent PVP players (hand eye coordination and thinking fast on your feet DO count here) are more likely to take part in WvW.
WvW provides more opportunities to utilize strategy, cunning, treachery, deception, stealth and other methods that are not dependent on top notch phsysical skills. I am looking forward to WvW in GW2 as it is more the type of PVP where I feel like I can have fun and not be a punching bag.
That's why I think GW2 did structured PvP right in yet another way.
They made structured PvP serverwide, and therefore populated by ALL the people playing the game. That means they don't need to motivate people on every server to play it... just enough motivation to have people playing it overall.
It doesn't progress your character in any way, or give out significant PvE rewards.
Honestly, so far as the game goes, they give WAY more motivation to play WvW (Level up, gain skills, have your character become better, improve your world), while sPvP is focused specifically on people whose goal is to test their skills against other players.
Which hey, I think that's a good way to divide it personally. It's a good way to not have instanced PvP kill off your open, multiplayer PvP.
(Having really great rewards in instanced PvP forces more people out of the game world)
Finally I can agree with you (except that its not his definition, its THE definition)
One can be skilled at almost any endeavor. If there is a difference in performance between one who has just started and one who has practiced for some amount of time then it is something in which one can be skilled.
Of course most skills do not matter at all beyond their own context. WIthin the context of PvP in GW1 a Monk player who could read the enemy team in order to cast his protection spells on the member of his own team before the enermy team delivered their time on target combined damage spike was very important.
But outside of that context ?
Who gives a F**K.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
This gives an interesting point. Just because a skill can be relatively useless, does not mean anybody can have it. Usefulness of a skill does not directly correlate to ease of accquiring it.
There are many incredibly important skills like 'breathing without drowning in your own spit', conversationally using your native language or 'walking in a straight line' that are incredibly easy to master (Not everybody does, sadly).
There are other skills that very few people have, that are completely useless for all intents and purposes. Like being able to triple curl your tongue, or to bend your wrist back so that your fingers touch your forearm or to spin an egg for longer than anybody else.
MMOs are full of mostly irrelevant skills, but that does not mean they are easy to accquire. Some of the most difficult parts are proper usage of positioning, reading tells, identifying all skills at a glance, and so on. Some of these require literally fractions of a second of response time, and many people simply don't respond to ANYTHING that fast other than maybe pulling their hand out of a fire.
Its not just MMOs that are full of mostly irrelevant skills. Life, the real world, is full of mostly irrelevant skills.
I am a member of the first generation of my family in the United States not born on a cattle ranch. The first generation born in a hospital rather than delivered on the family ranch.
I grew up, learning to ride, shoot, track, hunt, etc. I owned my first horse at age 5, my first rifle at 6.
My family sold off the property when I was in my teens. I have lived in an Urban or Suburban area ever since. All of those things I learned growing up are essentially irrelevant in the modern world.
But they are still learned skills. I think that the 'learned' point is important. Being double-jointed (bending your wrist back) may not be a skill if its something that you don't have to learn how to do.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I think you and the guy you're replying to are undervaluing the general areas these skills influence a bit... Learning to ride and shoot would affect other areas. There's not necessarily a direct transfer from skill to skill, but you are probably a bit stronger in some areas than you would have been otherwise, or have some spatial awareness skills, or w/e. Generally, most skills can be useful in some way.
Agreed on the "learned" part.
I assume you've never taken part in a good competive chess game.
Critcal think!
Running a guild can help develope leadership skills and someone can defently relate it to running a business.
Yes, I understand that there are those who like to whip out how skilled they are and show it off. If you played any competive sports you would know that as well. Though, most of these MMO's do require a great deal of multitasking.
But hey, you seem like a pretty smart cat, maybe you'll figure it out one day.
[mod edit] It does NOT matter how skillful they are as long as THEY enjoy what THEY are doing. They purchased the game to have fun NOT to log in and seek your approval on how well they play. Your type of attitude has made MMORPG's into the gotta-be-better-than-anyone-else trash heaps that they are today. Let them progress at their own speed, gear up as they can and group with people they may actually enjoy grouping up with. You play the way you want to and let them do the same.
Its a discussion, and you don't HAVE to be apart of it....And you need to take down that defensive wall and stop taking things personal......This is a discussion not a "Your mean, i hate you, your not nice" thread
No, here were teh reasons for "getting rid" of the trinity (which they haven't quite done, but we'll hold that aisde)
1) No telling a friend/guilidie he can't go with you unless he rolls a healer.
2) No sitting there for hours waiting for a tank to queue.
3) No game mechanics where one person (the tank) is responsible for keeping the mobs under control, one person (the healer never even sees the fight but constantly states at health bars), and The rest (dps) just stand there and spam attacks until things fall down.
While I realize there's only so much realism you can have in a game, I want you to think of a real squad of soldiers in a combat zone. While each might have their own skills they are better at, none are forced into one "role". Maybe one minute Soldier A is drawing fire away from the group. Soldier B might have to do it later. Soldier C might be the team medic, but in a pinch anyone had better be able to provide first aid. Soldier D might be the heavy weapons guy, but that doens't mean C can't pick up an LMG and supress. Every teammate has to do every job, and every teammate is equally responsible for the health of the team, the defeat of the enemy, and the control of the situation. No one gets to slack off because that's "not their job". That's the core of GW2's philosophy on team makeup from what I can see, and I'm all for it.
Fortunately due to the nature of WvWvW, your team is almost always going to be better of with someone than without them...even if they aren't any good. I think there's caps on how many can be playing at once but it's very high, unlike sPvP where there's very limited spots and a crappy player will truly drag the team down.
Ditto for PVE actually, you can just jump in on those world events when you see people around and it's fine.
This is a big problem though isn't it? What will be the fun of PVE if you can just ride along the zerg and get it done without really doing anything? Is there any point to PVE when that is how it works?
What they really should have done with Dynamic events is have competing groups fighting for different outcomes (e.g., one group wants the Orcs to win, the other group tries to stop them).
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I don't see how it is a problem in that particular case. I personally do not like zergs, so I try to find events that are lacking people. When you have just 3 people the events are much harder and you can't zerg them. Even then, a lot of zerged events weren't that easy. People kept screwing up on the Flame Shaman all day.
I find your comment funny since, despite the zergs, GW2 is still much harder in PvE content than most standard MMO's out there... you're just chasing after someone's semantics here, have you played the game?
I don't think there will be that many zergs in the end, really. Population will distribute more and you may have a few players per event. I think the point he's trying to make, though, is that the events aren't maximized in the sense that you have to do everything absolutely right to succeed. You don't have to do a ton of preparation to start playing and having fun (even if that includes dying). Maximized gameplay is left to the dungeons.
Yes, there's a point to PvE when that's how it works. Maybe not for you.
And, no, they shouldn't have done that. That sounds incredibly stupid. Yeah, I am really just going to help centaurs destroy my own village. Not to mention, adding competition to PvE, the very thing ANet wanted to avoid. Do you even know what game this is? EVE online is that way.
I wonder if putting on shoes in the morning counts as a skill too?
I might retract that statement after I give this game a fair test this coming beta weekend.
Define "unskilled"please. I cant see how gw2 needs more skilled players than other games. Well if you need to be very skilled to run around like a moran casting few spells then it might need skilled players. Comparing this game with other games there you need to know loads of different spells to be abel to suport your group needs more know how than gw2 wich is more action based.
I get that philosophy, and I get why some don't like competition. But I think competition is fun so I have a disagreement on that Anet philosophy (along with a few other of their philosophies AKA my signature). But I do agree that over time the zerg aspect will probably go away. But for the first month or so it will be zerg central I'm thinking.
With Rift the dynamic events were so common that eventually I was doing some of them myself. But of course with Rift (on a PVP server) you had to worry about getting stabbed in the back while closing one which I thought made it so much more fun. But then again I'm a PVPer at heart and like that.
I get that GW2 PVE is very casual and there is nothing wrong with that. Casuals need games too. Just not really my cup of tea...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Probably will. Unless, of course, you put on your shoes while simultaneously fending off a ninja and an archer by running in circles tossing rocks. Mad props if that is how you put shoes on though.
Even without the ninja, if somebody stood over you and timed how long it took you to put on and tie your shoes, and you compete against others for the fastest time, you will soon see there is actually significant skill involved if you want to be the best.
To be the best at ANYTHING takes skill. It's a fact. And like I've told my kids who sometimes ask "Can you make money doing ______?" I usually respond that if you are the BEST in the WORLD than yes, you just might be able to make money doing that (even though its safer to just be good at something even average people can make money at).
For example Tony Hawk once asked the same thing of his parents and thankfully for him they didn't discourage him. Yes, it turns out being the best skateboarder in the world can make you millions...
http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-athletes/skateboarders/tony-hawk-net-worth/
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
This may be true for some games, but for games like WoW, it is not the case. Since WotLK, 90% of the game became very braindead. Leveling is very braindead. Low level instances are a joke even if you're a tank (god forbid you have heirlooms. I didn't have any, I had no prior tanking experience (nada), and I still found instances incredibly easy), never mind DPS. This continued all the way to max level. I don't know what skill you're talking about.
Rift is a bit different, but I can't say I found Rift difficult, either. TERA was also reportedly stupidly easy. What is this difficult game you speak of?
Maybe there was some skill in WoW PvP, but being gated by levels and gear makes it worthless. Heirlooms and twinks in my battlegrounds!
Difficulty scaling really doesn't have anything to do with how many buttons you have or how action based a game is. StarCraft is an action based game, it requires a lot of skill both on the cerebral and reflexive level. Thing is, if your game is so easy that you do not need those 50+ buttons, it doesn't matter that they're there, nobody is going to use them, people coming from those games will not be expecting a challenge.
GW2 is not, by any means, a simple game at all. Yes, it's more action based than WoW. I do not see how that makes it easier. You underestimate how much WoW was influenced by rotation schemes and the Trinity, which ultimate made the game much, much dumber than it could have been. And here's what you have to consider in GW2:
- 8 classes, obviously you have to know what they are, what the enemy can do, but most MMO's have this;
- each class has weapon choices. Each weapon is 5 skills, Elementalist weapons have 20. Most classes can swap weapons, which means they have 10 weapon skills; the swap mechanic is a separate thing with a potential cooldown that must be considered. This includes attunement swaps;
- skills in GW2 are very different from skills in most MMORPG's. WoW & Clones tend to have rather simple abilities. "This is damage". "This is a heal". "This is a CC." It's often very sterile. A typical interrupt doesn't deal any damage, for instance. There are some exceptions, but by and large, such are the skills, which is why there's so much more of them (similarly, GW1 had a lot of skills since, for instance, it had a separate skill for removing every condition in the game). In GW2, those are just effects. GW2 skills, on the other hand, are often mixed abilities, such as an attack with a blind, an attack that heals you, a jump and whirl, a boomerang with AoE explosion, an AoE divided into 5 pieces with a bleed, an attack that changes damage depending on how far away you are;
- besides weapon skills, all classes have 5 utility skills. Many of these utility skills change your weapon skills (such as engineer skills and stuff like conjured weapons). Some of them have secondary effects; + you have some profession specific skills like burst skills, death shroud, virtues, ranger pet, steal
- combos give skills another layer. Not only are skills mixes of damage, control, area of effect, etc., they are also often fields or finishers. A skill that does damage and is a projectile is different from a damage skill that's a blast or from a damage skill that is nothing; different fields are different from each other, so fire is not equivalent to water;
- on top of this, you have traits. The lines themselves are not terribly interesting, although do provide some significant changes here and there, but the actual traits themselves can result in some drastic changes across your build. Traits can affect all sorts of things like weapon swapping, dodging, classes of skills, prof mechanics;
- combining all this information to design a good build for your character is no easy task. Keeping track of all the details in your build once you have one isn't, either. Properly sequencing them, reacting to the right situation, keeping track of the cooldowns, etc.
Then, after all this, on top of this, you have to worry about movement, where you are, where the enemy is, LoS (not like WoW doesn't have that, you know), dodging at the right moment, hitting with your spells, etc.
I don't really see where GW2 is simpler than your standard MMORPG. Except it has a significantly harder PvE and non-gated PvP (which means more competition).
I agree that playing a video game requires skills. Some have mentioned macros and key binding, but I don't see these as being the skills that are required to be good. The skills to be good at video games I would say are
1- hand eye coordination - because yes, milliseconds do make a difference in video games.
2- the ability to multi task - you must be able to handle multiple tasks efficiently to be successful.
3- most important I think- the ability to think under pressure.
Those three are the "skills" that I think the best players have and I consider them to be true skills. Having said that, I also feel that it is not jusat a matter of a "fail" player practicing and learning and becoming an elite player. If you don't possess all 3 of the above in good quantities you have no hope of being successful in online gaming IMO.
I know this as fact from the days I played the old Age of Empires. I truly wanted to be good at that game, and learned as much as I could about units and tactics and such. But when I tried to put it to use against merely average players, I failed miserably. As soon as the conflict started my mind would freeze. I would focus on one thing and forget another. I was too slow in execution, both in figuring out a response, and in actually implementing it. I finally had to admit that I would never have a chance of being anything more than slightly below average at the game. I certainly had fun with that game though because I found a great group of people that enjoyed playing for fun!
Now granted Age was a much deeper and more complex PvP game than most MMO's are, in my opinion. Games like GW2 PvP I don't have quite as much respect for the skill involved.
I think this is the point King Gator was making. There are skills and there are "skills!". All of the above skills I mentioned apply here but I think they are dumbed down considerably from most types of RTS games. So if you consider being good at PvP in GW2 a major skill then good on you. You would certainly kick my ass.
But it is still just a computer game and in the end no one really cares except maybe your online buddies. So maybe we shouldn't be making it out to be more important than it is. If you are good, it is because you were born with the above 3 skills. Not everyone is the same, and you should not expect them to be.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
No offense sir, but knowing the strategies better and working as a team better are skills. There was a skill difference.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.