Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period. After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.
In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another. It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion.
The city guard DOES station people in the area. People who get beat up. Good thing for all the irregulars running around. Why don't they post their biggest badasses in the area? Because THOSE people are busy fending off the dragons.
It really does make sense. Not perfect real world sense, but it's considerably better done than your average MMORPG.
Also, I'm fairly sure there's been multiple wars where people have wondered 'Why do these people keep ATTACKING? They've attacked our castle every morning for months now, they're starting to get a little unrealistic'. That's just the nature of long term, ongoing conflicts.
Anyway, you can't find an MMORPG around... or even a game... that isn't filled with holes. That doesn't mean that any attempt to patch up SOME holes is completely pointless, or that there's no ability to distinguish between a game where you press a button and kobolds drop out in endless waves, and a game that at least PRETENDS there is some sort of kobold culture.
Like all things, it's a sliding scale. Just because GW2 doesn't perfectly mimic RL doesn't mean that any attempt to have more immersion is 100% fruitless, or that you can't compare it favorably to other games.
Nor does it mean that because you don't find it immersive, that other people are being silly because they do. Different strokes for different folks, and all.
This conversation would probably be a lot shorter if your next response was 'fine, I don't personally see it, but you people obviously do, so whatever'.
Immersion, like fun, is completely subjective. If I think I'm having immersion, or having fun... I actually am.
Stating you're having fun or immersion is actually objective.
If I say 'I'm having fun', that is an objective statement. (The sensation of having fun is subjective, but the fact that I am having that sensation is merely a fact. In this case, perception is the reality. I cannot say it is objectively fun, but I can say objectively that I find it to be fun. An important distinction!).
Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period. After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.
In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another. It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion.
MMORPGS aren't know for tracking time very well.
Still, they do stand a legion in the area, but then centaurs arrive raze the village and make their own villages and forts.
End of the day it is a game, not a simulator.
I'm sorry you have never been immersed in a MMORPG since none does what you describe.
The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design. I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames. While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.
Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period. After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.
In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another. It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion.
MMORPGS aren't know for tracking time very well.
Still, they do stand a legion in the area, but then centaurs arrive raze the village and make their own villages and forts.
End of the day it is a game, not a simulator.
I'm sorry you have never been immersed in a MMORPG since none does what you describe.
The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design. I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames. While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.
Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period. After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.
In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another. It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion.
MMORPGS aren't know for tracking time very well.
Still, they do stand a legion in the area, but then centaurs arrive raze the village and make their own villages and forts.
End of the day it is a game, not a simulator.
I'm sorry you have never been immersed in a MMORPG since none does what you describe.
The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design. I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames. While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.
Ok.
You didn't play the game or get over level 10.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
So we both agree that GW2 doesn't do any better a job at getting players immersed in PvE progression than any other MMORPG on the market?
Well, one could argue that SW:TOR and TSW probably do a better job.
Seeing and hearing it happen is not immersive at all...
I wonder why are people so affraid of GW2...
Where do the mobs come from? Is there a bandit camp set up near a farmer's field? Can you watch the bandits leave their camp then run over to and assault the farmer's field? When you repell the attack, does the event actually end before all mobs are dead? If so do the surviving bandits run back to their camp?
If the answer to all that is "no," do the mobs just spawn out of thin air in set waves until you complete or fail the event?
That's not very immersive at all, especially after the 5th time you do it in a single day. It's a minigame.
Here is the thing though... You only played to level 17...
The starter zones won't be as "dynamic" as we are trying to explain. It's a starter zone for a reason, get the basics down, get the feel of it.
The level 25-30 zones though... That's where this game comes to life. If you will judge an entire game off it's first 17 levels then so be it, but don't try to convince us we are wrong because we played much more content of the game then you have. I have 2 level 25's, mostly level'd through PvP, but at level 21 on my Ele i went to the Human area to see what it was like...
It was almost exactly what you asked...
Centaurs attacked a fort, we pushed them back, they re-treated to a forward camp, we took that, they re-treated further (the 2 survivors) and we followed them into their main camp all the way into another zone (level 25-30). We started fighting them there (they were much tougher) and after about a 10-15 minute fight the Centaur leader had them start sieging us. We got our asses kicked.
So we said in region, "need help assaulting a centaur base", we got about 5 more people and went back in. We got our asses kicked. They were a higher level than us and we could'nt do it.
That was my best PvE experience. I was so frustrated after that though cause we were killing the boss and blam, a siege shot killed about 4 of us and there was no re-couping. But afterwards, i looked at how far i've traveled, and it was 2 zones... That's pretty good. And you know the best part? I did it all with people i'll probably never see again. But we had a blast getting our asses kicked.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period. After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.
In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another. It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion.
of course it's not immserive like that. MMORPG dev driven content is either static or it loops. Sorry SuperXero, but you can't blame anybody for that. To me, i expect a certain level of immersion from these elements in themeparks, but not that much. It's like when you're suppose to teh great hero who defeats the final evil dragon in the dungeon. Well, of course it breaks immersion when you realize it's not like that, but that's mmos for you.
On one side, static nnpcs break immersion. On the other, npc's repeat the same exact unique lines and loop over andover. Pick your poison
The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design. I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames. While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.
Wait... ..
.... what?
If you repeat a quest, you will in fact go to the same location, doing the exact same thing over again.
Same for repeating a dynamic event. Oddly enough, there's usually more than 1 dynamic event per area. On multiple playthroughs, you're not guaranteed to run into the same dynamic events, or the same one in the same stage. The game is actually designed so you only need to do a portion of the dynamic events in any given area to reach the appropriate level for that level.
In fact, you appear to be slightly unfamiliar with one of the most notorious quest chain types of all, which I find odd. 'Go kill 10 boars' 'Go fetch 10 boar tusks from those same 10 boars' 'Go kill 10 veteran boars, slightly to the left of them ' 'Go get 10 boar hearts off veteran boars' 'Go kill the boss boar'. That is going to the same location, doing the exact same thing over and over. Whether or not you find GW2 design to be that way (Many people did not, including myself, since on multiple runthroughs, I found different dynamic events and things I honestly had never seen), I find it strange you see standard questing as not guilty of that.
I am willing to accept 'I do not see how GW2 avoids this', because people see things differently at times, but I am VERY confused by 'But quests... ah, beautiful quests. They do not do this', because quests are so firmly established I wasn't aware there was any confusion as to how they work. You do multiple runthroughs, you will in fact, do the EXACT same quests, without deviation, under the standard model. You will also do multiple tasks in a row that are so alike I want to punch the person and ask why they didn't give me a 'kill 10 boars, 10 veteran boars, a boss, and bring a lot of body parts' list in the first place. Conveniently, I outlined the part in red that confuses me.
Yep, I'm going to try and do it. I'm going to try and bring it back on topic because I actually enoyed talking about the original subject.
I think you guys should talk about the experience of going from killing dozens of centaurs to picking apples in under a minute. Isn't that what the question was about?
One particular criticism I saw leveled at “renown” and “heart chasing” was that their grandeur changed so heavily. One minute you could be battling dozens upon dozens of centaur, the next picking apples.
I think for some, the pacing there is jarring, and for others, it isn't. The designer says that it was on purpose to create a sense of pacing. I personally think there is something that lies between picking apples and centaur murder that may have fit better to occupy the space between the two activities. Variety is good and this game has it in droves, but I feel like this is a good example of a designer taking things a bit too far when defending his design position.
Yep, I'm going to try and do it. I'm going to try and bring it back on topic because I actually enoyed talking about the original subject.
I think you guys should talk about the experience of going from killing dozens of centaurs to picking apples in under a minute. Isn't that what the question was about?
One particular criticism I saw leveled at “renown” and “heart chasing” was that their grandeur changed so heavily. One minute you could be battling dozens upon dozens of centaur, the next picking apples.
I think for some, the pacing there is jarring, and for others, it isn't. The designer says that it was on purpose to create a sense pacing. I personally think there is something that lies between picking apples and centaur murder that may have fit better to occupy the space between the two activities. Variety is good and this game has it in droves, but I feel like this is a good example of a designer taking things a bit too far when defending his design position.
They didn't have to start with a giant boss, did they?
It is a design choice that works. If you just keep doing awesome event after awesome event, they become normal so aren't special anymore.
I just think they have too many heart quests- a few in the beggining to allow people to realize how the world work is fine. I know they decrease as you progress (and some actually happen during a big area and you complete them while doing other things) but the 20-25 areas still seem to be quite packed with them.
Might be because I've read a ton about the game and so I knew I was supposed to just go wherever, but after doing like 5 or 6 heart quests, I stopped caring/looking for them. Maybe the average gamer knows a lot less about the game and needs more time.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Yep, I'm going to try and do it. I'm going to try and bring it back on topic because I actually enoyed talking about the original subject.
I think you guys should talk about the experience of going from killing dozens of centaurs to picking apples in under a minute. Isn't that what the question was about?
One particular criticism I saw leveled at “renown” and “heart chasing” was that their grandeur changed so heavily. One minute you could be battling dozens upon dozens of centaur, the next picking apples.
I think for some, the pacing there is jarring, and for others, it isn't. The designer says that it was on purpose to create a sense pacing. I personally think there is something that lies between picking apples and centaur murder that may have fit better to occupy the space between the two activities. Variety is good and this game has it in droves, but I feel like this is a good example of a designer taking things a bit too far when defending his design position.
They didn't have to start with a giant boss, did they?
It is a design choice that works. If you just keep doing awesome event after awesome event, they become normal so aren't special anymore.
I just think they have too many heart quests- a few in the beggining to allow people to realize how the world work is fine. I know they decrease as you progress (and some actually happen during a big area and you complete them while doing other things) but the 20-25 areas still seem to be quite packed with them.
Might be because I've read a ton about the game and so I knew I was supposed to just go wherever, but after doing like 5 or 6 heart quests, I stopped caring/looking for them. Maybe the average gamer knows a lot less about the game and needs more time.
I'm impartial to hearts, to be honest. They are more frequent in the 1-10 zones because they are used as a way to introduce the player to dynamic events.
As far as the pacing goes, I actually like how the game switches from fighting an epic boss to doing a fun little activity like picking apples or watering plants or training with the militia. Games that have only combat get really boring. TERA is a prime example of this. Great combat, fun BAM fights but after your 50th BAM, they stop being special. By changing the pace, ArenaNet has made sure that the game doesn't get boring. Besides, since most hearts do have a combat option, you don't really have to water plants if you don't want to.
I'm impartial to hearts, to be honest. They are more frequent in the 1-10 zones because they are used as a way to introduce the player to dynamic events.
As far as the pacing goes, I actually like how the game switches from fighting an epic boss to doing a fun little activity like picking apples or watering plants or training with the militia. Games that have only combat get really boring. TERA is a prime example of this. Great combat, fun BAM fights but after your 50th BAM, they stop being special. By changing the pace, ArenaNet has made sure that the game doesn't get boring. Besides, since most hearts do have a combat option, you don't really have to water plants if you don't want to.
I think that's pretty much the difference between this game and most other thempark-like games. In GW2, you have more choices. Way more choices. And even when you and a group of 30 people are done with a 30 minute bout with a fire Shaman, you still have the option to go out and do whatever you want.
The pace isn't even really determined by what appears to be next, but instead by what you decide to do next.
So we both agree that GW2 doesn't do any better a job at getting players immersed in PvE progression than any other MMORPG on the market?
Well, one could argue that SW:TOR and TSW probably do a better job.
Seeing and hearing it happen is not immersive at all...
I wonder why are people so affraid of GW2...
Where do the mobs come from? Is there a bandit camp set up near a farmer's field? Can you watch the bandits leave their camp then run over to and assault the farmer's field? When you repell the attack, does the event actually end before all mobs are dead? If so do the surviving bandits run back to their camp?
If the answer to all that is "no," do the mobs just spawn out of thin air in set waves until you complete or fail the event?
That's not very immersive at all, especially after the 5th time you do it in a single day. It's a minigame.
Actually, yes. There's a cave near a Heart quest, and it's full of bandits. What you're asking for is a permanent state to the game world. That is very unlikely to happen in any MMO to date, because the technology would be very difficult to implement.
Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period. After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.
In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another. It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion.
MMORPGS aren't know for tracking time very well.
Still, they do stand a legion in the area, but then centaurs arrive raze the village and make their own villages and forts.
End of the day it is a game, not a simulator.
I'm sorry you have never been immersed in a MMORPG since none does what you describe.
The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design. I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames. While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.
And now the real flaw in your logic shows. You are comparing doing a single quest to doing the same dynamic event multiple times. You see the flaw there? No? Let me help you. If you are repeating events you have to compare that to doing repeatable quests the same amount of times. In which case you ARE going to the same place doing the same thing over and over again. You act as if there is only one dynamic event per zone when infact there are many, many events, Alot of which have diffrent tracts they can take so you may never see the "same" thing twice even when rolling an alt. Not to mention Anet has said time and time again they have the tech and will be rotating in and out dynamic events. The traditional themapark doesnt rotate out quests do they? Nope didnt think so.
So like I said, you like one style thats fine. But dont try and use an apples to oranges argument and expect to be taken seriously.
Actually, yes. There's a cave near a Heart quest, and it's full of bandits. What you're asking for is a permanent state to the game world. That is very unlikely to happen in any MMO to date, because the technology would be very difficult to implement.
You're right that it's very unlikely to happen in any MMO, but it has nothing to do with implementing technology. Since the dawn of gaming they've had single player games that allow you to apply a permanent state to the game world. With MMO gaming there's a philosophy of development that prevents them from allowing players to make permanent changes as it would interfere with the game experience for every other player.
Example: If I burn down the house of a quest NPC and kill him the process, he'll be dead and gone forever and no other players would be able to get his quest.
WoW tried to get around this with phasing, but that's been praised and criticized equally (maybe more critized...).
In GW2 it sounds like there will be areas of the game that you can change or modify permanently, but it will only be in certain instances and only for your character's eyes. I think that's at least a step up from WoW, and does add to immersion in a small way (for me at least).
I'm impartial to hearts, to be honest. They are more frequent in the 1-10 zones because they are used as a way to introduce the player to dynamic events.
As far as the pacing goes, I actually like how the game switches from fighting an epic boss to doing a fun little activity like picking apples or watering plants or training with the militia. Games that have only combat get really boring. TERA is a prime example of this. Great combat, fun BAM fights but after your 50th BAM, they stop being special. By changing the pace, ArenaNet has made sure that the game doesn't get boring. Besides, since most hearts do have a combat option, you don't really have to water plants if you don't want to.
I think that's pretty much the difference between this game and most other thempark-like games. In GW2, you have more choices. Way more choices. And even when you and a group of 30 people are done with a 30 minute bout with a fire Shaman, you still have the option to go out and do whatever you want.
The pace isn't even really determined by what appears to be next, but instead by what you decide to do next.
You hit the nail right on the head with that one. Some people just don't seem to want to understand that the game is about playing however you want to play.
If you don't want to pick apples after killing that boss, fine, don't. Go kill some other things and get some crafting materials. Or go to a city and talk to some NPCs, or throw a bunch of crap into the Mystic Forge and see what happens, or explore, or find another big boss to kill.
If you don't want to pick apples, kill the damn spiders, then.
It's as simple as that really.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period. After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.
In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another. It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion.
MMORPGS aren't know for tracking time very well.
Still, they do stand a legion in the area, but then centaurs arrive raze the village and make their own villages and forts.
End of the day it is a game, not a simulator.
I'm sorry you have never been immersed in a MMORPG since none does what you describe.
The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design. I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames. While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.
what are you talking about? Dynamic events are far more immersive than traditional questing. Have you even played a traditional MMO recently? Do I need to recount how many times in WoW I had to kill raptors for quests in the barrens? Or Yetis(damn you pristine yeti horn!) in winterspring? I HATE quests because of that very nature of leading you by the hand and their incredibly repetitive nature. In GW2 I spent hours wondering around completing things without ever once feeling like it was repetitive or that my hand was being held. In GW2 going from killing slimes to salamanders, to a flame shaman, then ghosts, then spiders, trolls, etc all without having to return to a quest hub or worry about having the quest. It all happened seamlessly and an hour or so had quickly gone by, now that is immersion.
In GW2 I have no idea how you could accomplish being in the same location doing the same thing unless you specifically chose to do so. There are tons of events going on and the events more often than not move you around the map into more events. Their end of beta event is a really good example of that, it took us from the very start of the charr starter zone the whole way through to the other side of the zone before the servers went down. I got at least a level (at level 20) from all the events we were completing along the way.
Seeing something happening and being able to instantly participate is immersive. Nothing breaks immersion quicker than seeing something happening and realizing "I don't have that quest". Or even if you do have that quest the fact that the mob is already tagged.
Immersion is picking those apples from your own orchard and making a apple pie. this is a quest. thats not a bad thing and they do have to add something to keep you busy. i mean the way folks compain (me included) there is only so much they can do to keep the masses of people happy.
Why do these dynamic events sound ike Rifts?
Anyways I will give the game 3-6 months then see if i will pick it up. sound ok though. anything better then world of pandacraft.
true..i dont have any problem feeding cow ,picking apple, drop water to flowers as long i dont need to kill 10 rats over and over i dont have any problem shooting or practice blocking ,and that is why gw2 shine once more caus eof his unique quest style and system it feel you doing somthing good in the world other than just kill 10 rats and then kill 20 more rats .
I have no problems with picking apples, feeding cows, etc. I find diversity in actions and elments to be far more intersting than
"The (insert x enemy) is attacking (insert x location) again. Stop them".
When it comes to quests, i like having different situation to spice it up. IMO, it's way more fun that stoping the 2nd generic mob invasion. Not to meantion that's already in Rift.
I do because picking apples, watering plants and feeding cows have nothing to do with the war against the dragons.
I beg to differ with you. Yes, yes they DO. Your character LIVES in this world. You are not ONLY battling dragons. You are working (crafting), exploring, fighting, helping your neighbors (npcs) pick apples and feed their cows....it's all part of one BIG picture. You're just choosing to look at one piece of it only.
Clicking on apples and cows and holes in the dam do not in anyway make me feel like I live in a world. There is nothing engaging about it. Give me housing, a shop and crafting that really matters and we might be able to talk.
Immersion is picking those apples from your own orchard and making a apple pie. this is a quest. thats not a bad thing and they do have to add something to keep you busy. i mean the way folks compain (me included) there is only so much they can do to keep the masses of people happy.
Why do these dynamic events sound ike Rifts?
Anyways I will give the game 3-6 months then see if i will pick it up. sound ok though. anything better then world of pandacraft.
There was nothing dynamic about Rifts. They always spawned at the same place. The conquering NPC was great though and GW2 dynamic events will also feature invasions. However they are more then just that and differ greatly from rifts. Although in the starters zone they really do not feel to dynamic either, but hope that is going to change. Still even if not the game is good enough as a B2P game.
I like the slower missions in between. Doing constant "epic" things would not really make them epic anymore.
Actually, yes. There's a cave near a Heart quest, and it's full of bandits. What you're asking for is a permanent state to the game world. That is very unlikely to happen in any MMO to date, because the technology would be very difficult to implement.
You're right that it's very unlikely to happen in any MMO, but it has nothing to do with implementing technology. Since the dawn of gaming they've had single player games that allow you to apply a permanent state to the game world.
Here's the problem with that. Only one person (or a team in co-cop games) is playing through that content. And once completed they move past it and never see it again.
If you add permanence on that scale to an MMO, it would be devoid of content in hours. Respawning content is simply a matter of necessity to accomodate thousand of players playing round the clock.
Now, it's possible to randomize spawn locations, respawn timers, and what mobs appear, to give the illusion of it not being a respawn, but it still is what it is.
So we both agree that GW2 doesn't do any better a job at getting players immersed in PvE progression than any other MMORPG on the market?
Well, one could argue that SW:TOR and TSW probably do a better job.
Hmm... I distinctly remember running around in a zone and this Charr runs up to me and says "You, come over here! I need a hand with something!" Turned into a fully unexpected DE with three links in the chain. Not once did he call me "slave".
Actually, yes. There's a cave near a Heart quest, and it's full of bandits. What you're asking for is a permanent state to the game world. That is very unlikely to happen in any MMO to date, because the technology would be very difficult to implement.
You're right that it's very unlikely to happen in any MMO, but it has nothing to do with implementing technology. Since the dawn of gaming they've had single player games that allow you to apply a permanent state to the game world.
Here's the problem with that. Only one person (or a team in co-cop games) is playing through that content. And once completed they move past it and never see it again.
If you add permanence on that scale to an MMO, it would be devoid of content in hours. Respawning content is simply a matter of necessity to accomodate thousand of players playing round the clock.
Now, it's possible to randomize spawn locations, respawn timers, and what mobs appear, to give the illusion of it not being a respawn, but it still is what it is.
This is why people say it is not much different than a traditional quest. If the event happens over and over it loses its wow factor. How many times can you save a bridge, stop an invasion, or escort the little girl. I understand that the DE's chain, but if the chain is just another similar cliche MMO task then is it really that much different than a quest chain? Sure sometimes the world changes for a few minutes sometimes, but it eventually reverts back. I am interested in seeing what the devs do for changing up the events and hope that it is more often than not to avoid the yawn factor of "the centaurs are at it again" or "do those bandits ever stop". I like GW2 and plan on playing it, but I see it for what it is.
Comments
The city guard DOES station people in the area. People who get beat up. Good thing for all the irregulars running around. Why don't they post their biggest badasses in the area? Because THOSE people are busy fending off the dragons.
It really does make sense. Not perfect real world sense, but it's considerably better done than your average MMORPG.
Also, I'm fairly sure there's been multiple wars where people have wondered 'Why do these people keep ATTACKING? They've attacked our castle every morning for months now, they're starting to get a little unrealistic'. That's just the nature of long term, ongoing conflicts.
Anyway, you can't find an MMORPG around... or even a game... that isn't filled with holes. That doesn't mean that any attempt to patch up SOME holes is completely pointless, or that there's no ability to distinguish between a game where you press a button and kobolds drop out in endless waves, and a game that at least PRETENDS there is some sort of kobold culture.
Like all things, it's a sliding scale. Just because GW2 doesn't perfectly mimic RL doesn't mean that any attempt to have more immersion is 100% fruitless, or that you can't compare it favorably to other games.
Nor does it mean that because you don't find it immersive, that other people are being silly because they do. Different strokes for different folks, and all.
This conversation would probably be a lot shorter if your next response was 'fine, I don't personally see it, but you people obviously do, so whatever'.
Immersion, like fun, is completely subjective. If I think I'm having immersion, or having fun... I actually am.
Stating you're having fun or immersion is actually objective.
If I say 'I'm having fun', that is an objective statement. (The sensation of having fun is subjective, but the fact that I am having that sensation is merely a fact. In this case, perception is the reality. I cannot say it is objectively fun, but I can say objectively that I find it to be fun. An important distinction!).
The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design. I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames. While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.
Have you played the game?
Ok.
You didn't play the game or get over level 10.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Here is the thing though... You only played to level 17...
The starter zones won't be as "dynamic" as we are trying to explain. It's a starter zone for a reason, get the basics down, get the feel of it.
The level 25-30 zones though... That's where this game comes to life. If you will judge an entire game off it's first 17 levels then so be it, but don't try to convince us we are wrong because we played much more content of the game then you have. I have 2 level 25's, mostly level'd through PvP, but at level 21 on my Ele i went to the Human area to see what it was like...
It was almost exactly what you asked...
Centaurs attacked a fort, we pushed them back, they re-treated to a forward camp, we took that, they re-treated further (the 2 survivors) and we followed them into their main camp all the way into another zone (level 25-30). We started fighting them there (they were much tougher) and after about a 10-15 minute fight the Centaur leader had them start sieging us. We got our asses kicked.
So we said in region, "need help assaulting a centaur base", we got about 5 more people and went back in. We got our asses kicked. They were a higher level than us and we could'nt do it.
That was my best PvE experience. I was so frustrated after that though cause we were killing the boss and blam, a siege shot killed about 4 of us and there was no re-couping. But afterwards, i looked at how far i've traveled, and it was 2 zones... That's pretty good. And you know the best part? I did it all with people i'll probably never see again. But we had a blast getting our asses kicked.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
of course it's not immserive like that. MMORPG dev driven content is either static or it loops. Sorry SuperXero, but you can't blame anybody for that. To me, i expect a certain level of immersion from these elements in themeparks, but not that much. It's like when you're suppose to teh great hero who defeats the final evil dragon in the dungeon. Well, of course it breaks immersion when you realize it's not like that, but that's mmos for you.
On one side, static nnpcs break immersion. On the other, npc's repeat the same exact unique lines and loop over andover. Pick your poison
Wait... ..
.... what?
If you repeat a quest, you will in fact go to the same location, doing the exact same thing over again.
Same for repeating a dynamic event. Oddly enough, there's usually more than 1 dynamic event per area. On multiple playthroughs, you're not guaranteed to run into the same dynamic events, or the same one in the same stage. The game is actually designed so you only need to do a portion of the dynamic events in any given area to reach the appropriate level for that level.
In fact, you appear to be slightly unfamiliar with one of the most notorious quest chain types of all, which I find odd. 'Go kill 10 boars' 'Go fetch 10 boar tusks from those same 10 boars' 'Go kill 10 veteran boars, slightly to the left of them ' 'Go get 10 boar hearts off veteran boars' 'Go kill the boss boar'. That is going to the same location, doing the exact same thing over and over. Whether or not you find GW2 design to be that way (Many people did not, including myself, since on multiple runthroughs, I found different dynamic events and things I honestly had never seen), I find it strange you see standard questing as not guilty of that.
I am willing to accept 'I do not see how GW2 avoids this', because people see things differently at times, but I am VERY confused by 'But quests... ah, beautiful quests. They do not do this', because quests are so firmly established I wasn't aware there was any confusion as to how they work. You do multiple runthroughs, you will in fact, do the EXACT same quests, without deviation, under the standard model. You will also do multiple tasks in a row that are so alike I want to punch the person and ask why they didn't give me a 'kill 10 boars, 10 veteran boars, a boss, and bring a lot of body parts' list in the first place. Conveniently, I outlined the part in red that confuses me.
Yep, I'm going to try and do it. I'm going to try and bring it back on topic because I actually enoyed talking about the original subject.
I think you guys should talk about the experience of going from killing dozens of centaurs to picking apples in under a minute. Isn't that what the question was about?
One particular criticism I saw leveled at “renown” and “heart chasing” was that their grandeur changed so heavily. One minute you could be battling dozens upon dozens of centaur, the next picking apples.
I think for some, the pacing there is jarring, and for others, it isn't. The designer says that it was on purpose to create a sense of pacing. I personally think there is something that lies between picking apples and centaur murder that may have fit better to occupy the space between the two activities. Variety is good and this game has it in droves, but I feel like this is a good example of a designer taking things a bit too far when defending his design position.
They didn't have to start with a giant boss, did they?
It is a design choice that works. If you just keep doing awesome event after awesome event, they become normal so aren't special anymore.
I just think they have too many heart quests- a few in the beggining to allow people to realize how the world work is fine. I know they decrease as you progress (and some actually happen during a big area and you complete them while doing other things) but the 20-25 areas still seem to be quite packed with them.
Might be because I've read a ton about the game and so I knew I was supposed to just go wherever, but after doing like 5 or 6 heart quests, I stopped caring/looking for them. Maybe the average gamer knows a lot less about the game and needs more time.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I'm impartial to hearts, to be honest. They are more frequent in the 1-10 zones because they are used as a way to introduce the player to dynamic events.
As far as the pacing goes, I actually like how the game switches from fighting an epic boss to doing a fun little activity like picking apples or watering plants or training with the militia. Games that have only combat get really boring. TERA is a prime example of this. Great combat, fun BAM fights but after your 50th BAM, they stop being special. By changing the pace, ArenaNet has made sure that the game doesn't get boring. Besides, since most hearts do have a combat option, you don't really have to water plants if you don't want to.
I think that's pretty much the difference between this game and most other thempark-like games. In GW2, you have more choices. Way more choices. And even when you and a group of 30 people are done with a 30 minute bout with a fire Shaman, you still have the option to go out and do whatever you want.
The pace isn't even really determined by what appears to be next, but instead by what you decide to do next.
Actually, yes. There's a cave near a Heart quest, and it's full of bandits. What you're asking for is a permanent state to the game world. That is very unlikely to happen in any MMO to date, because the technology would be very difficult to implement.
And now the real flaw in your logic shows. You are comparing doing a single quest to doing the same dynamic event multiple times. You see the flaw there? No? Let me help you. If you are repeating events you have to compare that to doing repeatable quests the same amount of times. In which case you ARE going to the same place doing the same thing over and over again. You act as if there is only one dynamic event per zone when infact there are many, many events, Alot of which have diffrent tracts they can take so you may never see the "same" thing twice even when rolling an alt. Not to mention Anet has said time and time again they have the tech and will be rotating in and out dynamic events. The traditional themapark doesnt rotate out quests do they? Nope didnt think so.
So like I said, you like one style thats fine. But dont try and use an apples to oranges argument and expect to be taken seriously.
You're right that it's very unlikely to happen in any MMO, but it has nothing to do with implementing technology. Since the dawn of gaming they've had single player games that allow you to apply a permanent state to the game world. With MMO gaming there's a philosophy of development that prevents them from allowing players to make permanent changes as it would interfere with the game experience for every other player.
Example: If I burn down the house of a quest NPC and kill him the process, he'll be dead and gone forever and no other players would be able to get his quest.
WoW tried to get around this with phasing, but that's been praised and criticized equally (maybe more critized...).
In GW2 it sounds like there will be areas of the game that you can change or modify permanently, but it will only be in certain instances and only for your character's eyes. I think that's at least a step up from WoW, and does add to immersion in a small way (for me at least).
You hit the nail right on the head with that one. Some people just don't seem to want to understand that the game is about playing however you want to play.
If you don't want to pick apples after killing that boss, fine, don't. Go kill some other things and get some crafting materials. Or go to a city and talk to some NPCs, or throw a bunch of crap into the Mystic Forge and see what happens, or explore, or find another big boss to kill.
If you don't want to pick apples, kill the damn spiders, then.
It's as simple as that really.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
what are you talking about? Dynamic events are far more immersive than traditional questing. Have you even played a traditional MMO recently? Do I need to recount how many times in WoW I had to kill raptors for quests in the barrens? Or Yetis(damn you pristine yeti horn!) in winterspring? I HATE quests because of that very nature of leading you by the hand and their incredibly repetitive nature. In GW2 I spent hours wondering around completing things without ever once feeling like it was repetitive or that my hand was being held. In GW2 going from killing slimes to salamanders, to a flame shaman, then ghosts, then spiders, trolls, etc all without having to return to a quest hub or worry about having the quest. It all happened seamlessly and an hour or so had quickly gone by, now that is immersion.
In GW2 I have no idea how you could accomplish being in the same location doing the same thing unless you specifically chose to do so. There are tons of events going on and the events more often than not move you around the map into more events. Their end of beta event is a really good example of that, it took us from the very start of the charr starter zone the whole way through to the other side of the zone before the servers went down. I got at least a level (at level 20) from all the events we were completing along the way.
Seeing something happening and being able to instantly participate is immersive. Nothing breaks immersion quicker than seeing something happening and realizing "I don't have that quest". Or even if you do have that quest the fact that the mob is already tagged.
Immersion is picking those apples from your own orchard and making a apple pie. this is a quest. thats not a bad thing and they do have to add something to keep you busy. i mean the way folks compain (me included) there is only so much they can do to keep the masses of people happy.
Why do these dynamic events sound ike Rifts?
Anyways I will give the game 3-6 months then see if i will pick it up. sound ok though. anything better then world of pandacraft.
I have to agree with the semantics here. It sounds like a fetch quest, and not freeform mushroom picking ala Skyrim.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
true..i dont have any problem feeding cow ,picking apple, drop water to flowers as long i dont need to kill 10 rats over and over i dont have any problem shooting or practice blocking ,and that is why gw2 shine once more caus eof his unique quest style and system it feel you doing somthing good in the world other than just kill 10 rats and then kill 20 more rats .
Clicking on apples and cows and holes in the dam do not in anyway make me feel like I live in a world. There is nothing engaging about it. Give me housing, a shop and crafting that really matters and we might be able to talk.
There was nothing dynamic about Rifts. They always spawned at the same place. The conquering NPC was great though and GW2 dynamic events will also feature invasions. However they are more then just that and differ greatly from rifts. Although in the starters zone they really do not feel to dynamic either, but hope that is going to change. Still even if not the game is good enough as a B2P game.
I like the slower missions in between. Doing constant "epic" things would not really make them epic anymore.
Here's the problem with that. Only one person (or a team in co-cop games) is playing through that content. And once completed they move past it and never see it again.
If you add permanence on that scale to an MMO, it would be devoid of content in hours. Respawning content is simply a matter of necessity to accomodate thousand of players playing round the clock.
Now, it's possible to randomize spawn locations, respawn timers, and what mobs appear, to give the illusion of it not being a respawn, but it still is what it is.
Hmm... I distinctly remember running around in a zone and this Charr runs up to me and says "You, come over here! I need a hand with something!" Turned into a fully unexpected DE with three links in the chain. Not once did he call me "slave".
Oderint, dum metuant.
They are EPIC apples
This is why people say it is not much different than a traditional quest. If the event happens over and over it loses its wow factor. How many times can you save a bridge, stop an invasion, or escort the little girl. I understand that the DE's chain, but if the chain is just another similar cliche MMO task then is it really that much different than a quest chain? Sure sometimes the world changes for a few minutes sometimes, but it eventually reverts back. I am interested in seeing what the devs do for changing up the events and hope that it is more often than not to avoid the yawn factor of "the centaurs are at it again" or "do those bandits ever stop". I like GW2 and plan on playing it, but I see it for what it is.