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Can't have that "feeling" without harsh death penalty

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  • OberanMiMOberanMiM Chicago, ILPosts: 236Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Dragonantis

    DayZ proved how popular a death penalty can be in a game, but it would be more difficult for an MMO, MMO's are all about progression.

    Yeah it's all about short (<6 hour) progression vs. long (>6 hour) progression.  Most people just don't want harsh DP in a long progression game.

    It's like playing a tabletop RPG designed for multiple sessions of character progression...with a GM who kills off the party every session.  Most players aren't going to play with a jerk GM like that.  He's going to find some suckers (er, players,) but not many.

    You might not be able to have "that feeling" without harsh DP in a long progression game, but the clincher is hardly anyone wants that feeling!

    Short progression games can make harsh DP work.  Long progression games can't (or rather: it won't appeal to many.)

     

    No. I'd say current games are like a DM in a tabletop campaign who does everything to not let your character die. If your character gets low the enemies never deal the killing blow, somehow secretly that npc hireling always makes his heal check if your low etc. It goes the the point where some players don't even think strategically anymore because they know that the DM won't let them experience any meaningful penalty for taking damage or failing to do things in a logical way.

     

    Combine that with a monty haul loot campaign and monsters that might as well be made of paper and straw and you have the modern MMO game.. The players then whine when anything is remotely challenging, and when they are faced with more than they can handle, somehow magically help shows up to prevent them from dieing and gives them token gifts for "trying".

     

    Those players might do fine in those campaigns with DMs like that but their munchkin players are a plague on the genre as a whole.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    so how about this.

     

    we have a typical fantasy game and in the game the player gets to choose a "god" to follow. Following a god ensures that your resurected when you die ( it needs to make sense gamewise). As a "hero" for this "god", the more you fight, the more heroic you become in service of that god. The deity aspect would comprise about 10-15% of a players skills with 1-2 dedicated skills equipped at any time ( there would be a special deity only skill equip slot)

    I would have four states of being in this regard. The scale can be built up over time by fighting creatures your ability or better, so one death wouldnt necessarily move you down a rank

    1) Pawn: you get resurected at your gods nearest shrine, you can have your corpse summoned for a price.

    you can only access tier 1 deity abilities

    2) Hero: you get resurected in the nearest safe location or the nearest shrine and get free corpse summons. If you die five times you lose this status

    you can access tier 1 and tier 2 deity abilities

    3) Champion: You can spiritmove your corpse to a safe location and respawn there. If you die twice you lose this status

    You can access tier 1, 2 and 3

    4) Avatar: top of the scale, you can use the gods main power once, which returns you to champion status. You can access all deity abilities. If you die once you lose this status

     

    and we set it up so its pretty easy to go from pawn to hero, much harder to go from hero to champion and extremely difficult to gain avatar status. The opposite is also true. it would be very difficult to maintain champion status and avatar status would be extremely rare. All this would only apply to pve i would imagine. Death is inevitible in pvp.

    its not overwhelming, but does have an impact on your character without havin to resort to things exp loss.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,711Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by OberanMiM 

    No. I'd say current games are like a DM in a tabletop campaign who does everything to not let your character die. If your character gets low the enemies never deal the killing blow, somehow secretly that npc hireling always makes his heal check if your low etc. It goes the the point where some players don't even think strategically anymore because they know that the DM won't let them experience any meaningful penalty for taking damage or failing to do things in a logical way. 

    Combine that with a monty haul loot campaign and monsters that might as well be made of paper and straw and you have the modern MMO game.. The players then whine when anything is remotely challenging, and when they are faced with more than they can handle, somehow magically help shows up to prevent them from dieing and gives them token gifts for "trying". 

    Those players might do fine in those campaigns with DMs like that but their munchkin players are a plague on the genre as a whole.

    Well the key isn't whether or not you never die or whether you get awesome items (in fact that's part of the point!) but whether games offer challenges where skill is required to complete them.

    And while modern MMORPGs certainly fail this test in the early game, they tend to introduce challenges in the later game which kill players off repeatedly until they play skillfully enough to advance.  And actually both ends of this spectrum are bad game design for different demographics: skilled players should be able to engage in tough challenges every step of the way and unskilled players should be able to engage in tough* challenges every step of the way (* tough for them, meaning relatively easy.)  Basically every gamer is going to be happy if they experience their personal sweet spot of challenge.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • gainesvilleggainesvilleg Gainesville, FLPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Was listening to some old EQ midi music today, and the tune for the "Eerie Qeynos Catacombs" (as well as Befallen, as I recall) reminded me of the dread I felt and the hairs rising on the back of my neck when I ventured into those places.

    http://www.mmotomb.com/music/everquest-music/

    Why did I feel that way?  Because dying in game could really suck; you'd lose 20% of a level's worth of experience (i.e., about two hours of grinding to get back) and have to do a dangerous corpse run to get your gear back.  This made the scary eerie dungeons feel "scary" and "eerie".

    Without the death penalty, there is none of that.  Therefore, I'll trade being frustrated 1% of the time in exchange for being heavily immersed the other 99% of the time; better than being slightly, sedately bored 100% of the time.

    Remember, a stinging death penalty is not just about challenge, it's about immersion.

    "Without the death penalty, there is none of that. Therefore, I'll trade being frustrated 1% of the time in exchange for being heavily immersed the other 99% of the time; better than being slightly, sedately bored 100% of the time." 

    I absolutely 100% agree.  In fact I agree so much I wish I came up with that quote, as I would have made it my signature...

    GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
    1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
    2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements

  • xenogiasxenogias warsaw, INPosts: 1,926Member

    It depends on the game design. GW2 for example a harsh death penalty would not work due to game mechanics.

    That said I pretty much agree. I played AC. While not so harsh as looseing exp (which I think is a bad mechanic) you still had corpse runs, had to grind to get rid of the death penalty ect and getting tells asking for corpse run help was always so much fun. I remember a guildmates saying be "I will go anywhere to die" because if you asked him for help on a corpse run he ended up dead more often than not :D He always gave you time to get your own stuff though and in some cases get his to.

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Garvon3
    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    If I have to grind more just to placate your ability to feel immersed, screw your immersion.

    Right so... let's just make it so that if you log in... you automatically get to max level, get all the gear in the game.. and uh... all bosses die in one hit! Yeah, let's get rid of any kind of chance or penalty for failure!

    Now, now. Don't you know that everyone deserves a trophy so that no one feels like they are lesser than anyone else?

    You are the worst possible and always come in last; no worries, here's a shiny ribbon to help shield your self-esteem from any sort of hit.

    Makes perfect sense, right?

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    It occurred to me the reason why people want this feeling so much and the solution for the problem. Join the military and fight overseas specifically the army, then you'll have that feeling all the time. Otherwise i don't think that games will be adding this feature anytime soon.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    It would really depend on the game's design, but generally I don't need a dp at all to goad me into doing what I want to do anyway. If I want to be 'good' at a game, I'm going to spend the time to get good at the game. A harsh dp would just be an incentive to not play the game. Especially in cases where you almost need to die in order to figure out how to get past a portion of a game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    If I have to grind more just to placate your ability to feel immersed, screw your immersion.

    This kind of immersion is unnecessary, and yes i agree with you, we shouldn't be penalized for their "feeling". I feel the same way with Raiders requiring every game in the future be made into the age old lobby mmo just so they can feel leet while walking around town after a boss kill. It's ridiculous.

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon

    I recently played everquest again for a year on progression servers.

    After a month there was a vote if people wanted harsh death penalties (including corpse runs to regain your gear), the vote became a no and therefore penalties were changed to keeping gear and a light xp penalty. Its no secret that 99% of players on progression servers were returning players, but these still wanted ease when presented with the choise - The point here is the choise, when given two options most would choose the easier one always, but it has little to do with what gives them the best experience.

     

    I didnt think it was a big deal so I didnt care at the time, but it did change the game for me, I became careless and therefore less involved in my character. The sense of danger was not present, and I would fearlessly run though areas because all that could happen was I landed at my bind spot having to run back. One good thing it brought was that trains were not very frequent, because you could efford to die deep in a dungeon.

     

    So, I played for a year still and had a good time, so harsh death penalties were not a deciding factor. What I am trying to say, harsh death penalties are not THE thing that gives immersion, but it really does alot.

    What I am thinking is.. I really dont want to go back to 6 hour corpse runs, but I want harsh penalties, so death without armor is a no go and probably is for most, but I would still like a serious xp hit which create some degreee of fear - By serious, something like half an hour in a xp group, and with the option to do a corpse run/resourrection to reduce the loss. Actually very close to what the progression servers rules are now, except on these the xp penalty is hardly noticable.

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 810Member Uncommon

    Stop trying to make other people play the game you think is fun.

     

    Let them play their game and make the changes you can to make your game fun. Trying to change other people's opinions is a fool's mission.

     


    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by SuperXero89 If I have to grind more just to placate your ability to feel immersed, screw your immersion.
    Right so... let's just make it so that if you log in... you automatically get to max level, get all the gear in the game.. and uh... all bosses die in one hit! Yeah, let's get rid of any kind of chance or penalty for failure!
    Now, now. Don't you know that everyone deserves a trophy so that no one feels like they are lesser than anyone else? You are the worst possible and always come in last; no worries, here's a shiny ribbon to help shield your self-esteem from any sort of hit. Makes perfect sense, right?

     

    You're making the same mistake most PvPers make and most people that tie their self-esteem to a stupid game.

    It's not that people want a trophy for failing, It's that they don't care about trophies from a vidiot game

    See, you measure your importance by how many noobs you pwnt in a virtual world.

    We measure our importance by career success, by how happy our daughter is when we get home, and how much better we make our lives in the real world. We really don't care how we rank in an idle pastime we only engage in when we have some downtime to spend.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Velocinox

    y is a big part of that.

    So here's a thought...

    Next time you want a thrill in an 'insanely boring' MMO, go with this personal rule:

    If your character dies you DELETE it.

    If you have the strength to hold to that conviction I am sure you will have all the in game ecxitement you can handle.

     

    That doesn't make any sense. It's about players playing by the same rules, players all sharing similiar experiences.

    It doesn't have any meanign if you die in the game and you delete your character where all the other characters all rez 20 feet away smelling of lavender.

    As I've said numerous times, death penalties are personal things.

    xp loss? Bah, give me xp loss, that is not a harsh death penatly. me getting a debuff that forces me to sit for 10 minutes because my character can't be effective? To me that's a harsh death penatly because it means I don't get to play. It also means I will eventually lose interest because my slap on the wrist means I go do something else. Drop items? Not too harsh as the can always be earned back.

    I will say that for some (myself included) failure is a harsh death penatly. But for some people, they don't really feel failure, just the slap on the wrist.

    I've also noticed that players won't retry encounters if they die once. Even if there isn't a harsh death penatly.

    Death penalties only mean "something" to the people who find meanign in them. I died numerous times in L2 and just got back into the game (though once I died 6 times in a row and just had to put my toys away at that point) whereas in WoW I died twice in a row and just turned the game off because the tedious action of running back to my corpse was of no interest to me.

    For my taste, as I've mentioned, all I need is the fear of failure. That actually has meaning. But others don't think so and we need artifical game constructs to enforce "what it means to fail".

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 810Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Velocinox

    y is a big part of that.
    So here's a thought... Next time you want a thrill in an 'insanely boring' MMO, go with this personal rule: If your character dies you DELETE it. If you have the strength to hold to that conviction I am sure you will have all the in game ecxitement you can handle.  
    It doesn't have any meanign if you die in the game and you delete your character where all the other characters all rez 20 feet away smelling of lavender.

    ...

    all I need is the fear of failure. That actually has meaning.


     

    You post is self-contradicting.

    You say in one sentence that deleting your own character has no meaning to you unless all players face the same penalty.

    However, you state in your post's closing, that all that really matters to you is the fear of failing.

    If all that matters to you is the fear of failing, then why do you care how the other people play. Delete your character when it dies and you have plenty of fear about failing. Problem solved.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by mmoguy43

    Harsh penalties provides much less immersion than other things like more detail, sound, and music. Furthermore, MMOs are typically the most unimmersive types of games because of the other players. Why try to make MMOs more immersive with things that are not fun which don't add much immersion?

    Instead of having old ideas resurface, don't you think it would be better to come up with new ones that still make the games fun to play?

    Sorry, no to all of your points.

    I really don't know why but sure

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 810Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Originally posted by Velocinox  You're making the same mistake most PvPers make and most people that tie their self-esteem to a stupid game. It's not that people want a trophy for failing, It's that they don't care about trophies from a vidiot game See, you measure your importance by how many noobs you pwnt in a virtual world. We measure our importance by career success, by how happy our daughter is when we get home, and how much better we make our lives in the real world. We really don't care how we rank in an idle pastime we only engage in when we have some downtime to spend.
    Yes, that's me. I live my life through fucking video games and enjoy ruining the enjoyment of new players in every game I play. Sorry, bud. You do not know me well enough to make those calls. Nice try, Captain Assumptions. Here's your trophy. Well deserved.
     

    You're the one that tied ones self-esteem to their success in a video game. Right there in your previous post.


    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Now, now. Don't you know that everyone deserves a trophy so that no one feels like they are lesser than anyone else? You are the worst possible and always come in last; no worries, here's a shiny ribbon to help shield your self-esteem from any sort of hit. Makes perfect sense, right?

    I find it interesting that you got so defensive when the implication was returned in your direction.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    I will say that for some (myself included) failure is a harsh death penatly. But for some people, they don't really feel failure, just the slap on the wrist.

    I've also noticed that players won't retry encounters if they die once. Even if there isn't a harsh death penatly.

    I have not noticed this

    especially in DDO or dungeon crawls in EQ2, RIFT, etc

    people die -- then zone back into the dungeon and proceed

     

    in DDO, dead players need even more patience because they are ghost until another player brings their shard to shrine

     

     in Guild Wars 1 players died and got an accumulative death penalty but proceeded to the mission goals

  • DreamionDreamion GothenburgPosts: 286Member

    The only real death penalty experience in a mmo that i've had comes from vanguard really, thought its not much, but dying deep into VT with no one to sum you and you know that you need to go all the way back to get some stuff back, really makes a unique feeling, i've actually never really thought about death penalties that hard, seeing this, makes me wonder.

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Velocinox

     


    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Originally posted by Velocinox  You're making the same mistake most PvPers make and most people that tie their self-esteem to a stupid game. It's not that people want a trophy for failing, It's that they don't care about trophies from a vidiot game See, you measure your importance by how many noobs you pwnt in a virtual world. We measure our importance by career success, by how happy our daughter is when we get home, and how much better we make our lives in the real world. We really don't care how we rank in an idle pastime we only engage in when we have some downtime to spend.
    Yes, that's me. I live my life through fucking video games and enjoy ruining the enjoyment of new players in every game I play. Sorry, bud. You do not know me well enough to make those calls. Nice try, Captain Assumptions. Here's your trophy. Well deserved.

    You're the one that tied ones self-esteem to their success in a video game. Right there in your previous post.


    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Now, now. Don't you know that everyone deserves a trophy so that no one feels like they are lesser than anyone else? You are the worst possible and always come in last; no worries, here's a shiny ribbon to help shield your self-esteem from any sort of hit. Makes perfect sense, right?

    I find it interesting that you got so defensive when the implication was returned in your direction.

    My comment was directed at a generation of perfectly raised wimps. It's the attitude and upbringing of the kind of nut that would actually take a self-esteem hit from something such as always losing in dodgeball or (another example) never prospering in a video game.

    It was merely a wee bit of sarcasm, why you took it so literally is your business.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • kantseemekantseeme millville, NJPosts: 709Member
    Originally posted by itgrowls

    It occurred to me the reason why people want this feeling so much and the solution for the problem. Join the military and fight overseas specifically the army, then you'll have that feeling all the time. Otherwise i don't think that games will be adding this feature anytime soon.

     

    In responce to "I dont think that games will be adding this feature anytime soon" i present you with the link below.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h94QgkZcaLo&feature=player_embedded#!

     

     

    And comparing troops fighting over seas to death penalty in MMOs? Bad form.

  • MadnessRealmMadnessRealm Montreal, QCPosts: 2,716Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itgrowls

    It occurred to me the reason why people want this feeling so much and the solution for the problem. Join the military and fight overseas specifically the army, then you'll have that feeling all the time. Otherwise i don't think that games will be adding this feature anytime soon.

    Wizardry Online's doing it...permadeath to be more accurate. You've got Realm of the Mad God that does permanent death as well. DarkFall, MO, EVE have harsh death penality (lose everything you're carrying on death). Still, it's a niche genre, and just because you don't like it doesn't mean no MMO should try it.  It's not like someone's holding a gun to your head at point blank forcing you to play...

    ------
    Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  • tank017tank017 Glendale, CAPosts: 2,192Member
    When people die as a means to actually travel somewhere faster- which basically happens in every mmo these days-
    Then theres a problem.
  • kantseemekantseeme millville, NJPosts: 709Member
    Originally posted by tank017
    When people die as a means to actually travel somewhere faster- basically happens in every mmob these days-. Then theres a problem.

    +1

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by gainesvilleg
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Was listening to some old EQ midi music today, and the tune for the "Eerie Qeynos Catacombs" (as well as Befallen, as I recall) reminded me of the dread I felt and the hairs rising on the back of my neck when I ventured into those places.

    http://www.mmotomb.com/music/everquest-music/

    Why did I feel that way?  Because dying in game could really suck; you'd lose 20% of a level's worth of experience (i.e., about two hours of grinding to get back) and have to do a dangerous corpse run to get your gear back.  This made the scary eerie dungeons feel "scary" and "eerie".

    Without the death penalty, there is none of that.  Therefore, I'll trade being frustrated 1% of the time in exchange for being heavily immersed the other 99% of the time; better than being slightly, sedately bored 100% of the time.

    Remember, a stinging death penalty is not just about challenge, it's about immersion.

    "Without the death penalty, there is none of that. Therefore, I'll trade being frustrated 1% of the time in exchange for being heavily immersed the other 99% of the time; better than being slightly, sedately bored 100% of the time." 

    I absolutely 100% agree.  In fact I agree so much I wish I came up with that quote, as I would have made it my signature...

    Thanks.  Feel free to use/modify that quote as your signature.

  • dorugudorugu falkenbergPosts: 165Member Uncommon

    since yu want harsh death penalties yu culd either delete the char or one piece of yur equipped gear problem solved n think ow much immersion yull get  :)

    i dun wan harsh death penalties thank you i find it irritatin enuff to get killed w/o aving penalties to deal with  as well

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by dorugu

    since yu want harsh death penalties yu culd either delete the char or one piece of yur equipped gear problem solved n think ow much immersion yull get  :)

    i dun wan harsh death penalties thank you i find it irritatin enuff to get killed w/o aving penalties to deal with  as well

    Nope, silly ideas.  The idea is to feel immersed in the game world.  A MMORPG without a harsh death penalty is like touch football, ultimately lame, very lame.

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