Well the discussion was even theme park players would like to display their loot somewhere.
I don't. I have no interest whatsoever in putting up a museum to my own greatness. It's idiotic. If I can't use the loot, if I can't see it being useful in the future, I sell it.
I think trophies are stupid.
I keep some items for their look, unique use, and fun factor.
I've had the baby from Blackburrow in EQ1 in my bank for a decade now. There's a 10 year old boy in my bank.
I would think even the people who claim to hate this would LOVE a place to display all the fancy gear they got from whatever generic dungeon crawler theme park they play.
99% of them could be thrown behind it (themepark players that is) if you offered more storage.
Still, it'd not be used for anything other than that. So. Just more storage would be a better sell than setting a point at x,y to run to.
I really think extra storage and display cases are being very short sighted and speaking for myself as someone intrested in the idea of housing I could care less about those features.
What housing can do is really more intresting to those who like crafting and player markets. That is where it can really get intresting.
Well the discussion was even theme park players would like to display their loot somewhere.
I don't think that's the case because plenty of themeparks, even those with housing, rarely do you see people go.. "Come to my house and look at my stuff." Even more rarely do you log in and go.. "I think I'd like to go look at someone's digitally owned goods."
I've played games with crafting, farming, and player markets ran from the house. EQ2 FFXI being prime examples. And really the argument can be made; it was a lot of hassel to travel to these specific areas just for that. When a more publicly accessed area without any loading involved worked more efficiently. Like WoW's auction house / vendors.
LotRO offers a bit of both worlds and really giving people more options to play how they want is never a bad thing.
As per this discussion though; housing isn't a desired feature for a lot of players. If it's there, cool. If it's not, generally no one cares.
1. a 'housing system' that is designed only to show off trophies is not a housing system as far as I am concerned and should never ever be part of a discussion regarding housing. Developing a system where that is the only or primary purpose is, to be completely frank, an insult to gamers.
2. most people will take the path of least resitance and most forwardly mobile. If they could log in and hit 'I win' button they would. Thus, putting features into your game making it easier to do a specific task then the same task via housing is no surpise to me whatoever that people will choose the non-housing route and then eventually find themselves wondering why anyone would do housing.
3. disconnecting housing from the rest of 'the game' or making it easier to do all tasks in another way is similar to asking the fighter 'why a handknife to kill your mobs instead of a good sword'.
I personally do not consider myself a very highly intelligent person. With that said I am a bit surprised that even though on a personal level I dont care if housing exists in any shape or form and as a result my emotional investment in this subject is very low but even with those parameters I am able to quickly see the stark difference between what is actualy in housing for most games and what could be in housing which would make the entire experience radically different.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I personally do not consider myself a very highly intelligent person. With that said I am a bit surprised that even though on a personal level I dont care if housing exists in any shape or form and as a result my emotional investment in this subject is very low but even with those parameters I am able to quickly see the stark difference between what is actualy in housing for most games and what could be in housing which would make the entire experience radically different.
What could be .. is not relevant. No one is building this "what could be". No one has spec it out. No one has any idea whether it will work or not.
Some vague ideas about vast superior housing is irrelevant and not useful. This is like saying, the current travel system is too boring .. if it is build vastly better, players will do nothing else by travel in a game.
I personally do not consider myself a very highly intelligent person. With that said I am a bit surprised that even though on a personal level I dont care if housing exists in any shape or form and as a result my emotional investment in this subject is very low but even with those parameters I am able to quickly see the stark difference between what is actualy in housing for most games and what could be in housing which would make the entire experience radically different.
What could be .. is not relevant. No one is building this "what could be". No one has spec it out. No one has any idea whether it will work or not.
Some vague ideas about vast superior housing is irrelevant and not useful. This is like saying, the current travel system is too boring .. if it is build vastly better, players will do nothing else by travel in a game.
thats silly. something has to be created first before you can consider it an option? Ok, leave the innovation ideas for the big boys...;)
If we just left options to what has been created we would even have MMOs to begin with. Your sounding like a TES Online lead developer now.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I personally do not consider myself a very highly intelligent person. With that said I am a bit surprised that even though on a personal level I dont care if housing exists in any shape or form and as a result my emotional investment in this subject is very low but even with those parameters I am able to quickly see the stark difference between what is actualy in housing for most games and what could be in housing which would make the entire experience radically different.
What could be .. is not relevant. No one is building this "what could be". No one has spec it out. No one has any idea whether it will work or not.
Some vague ideas about vast superior housing is irrelevant and not useful. This is like saying, the current travel system is too boring .. if it is build vastly better, players will do nothing else by travel in a game.
thats silly. something has to be created first before you can consider it an option? Ok, leave the innovation ideas for the big boys...;)
If we just left options to what has been created we would even have MMOs to begin with. Your sounding like a TES Online lead developer now.
There isn't even a concrete idea. MMOs are based on PREVIOUS games. UO is an extension of U7. EQ is a graphical version of Diku MUD. Just saying "doing it better" is not relevant.
And i don't see any idea from you except .. housing can be better. That is not an idea. That is a wish.
I personally do not consider myself a very highly intelligent person. With that said I am a bit surprised that even though on a personal level I dont care if housing exists in any shape or form and as a result my emotional investment in this subject is very low but even with those parameters I am able to quickly see the stark difference between what is actualy in housing for most games and what could be in housing which would make the entire experience radically different.
What could be .. is not relevant. No one is building this "what could be". No one has spec it out. No one has any idea whether it will work or not.
Some vague ideas about vast superior housing is irrelevant and not useful. This is like saying, the current travel system is too boring .. if it is build vastly better, players will do nothing else by travel in a game.
thats silly. something has to be created first before you can consider it an option? Ok, leave the innovation ideas for the big boys...;)
If we just left options to what has been created we would even have MMOs to begin with. Your sounding like a TES Online lead developer now.
There isn't even a concrete idea. MMOs are based on PREVIOUS games. UO is an extension of U7. EQ is a graphical version of Diku MUD. Just saying "doing it better" is not relevant.
And i don't see any idea from you except .. housing can be better. That is not an idea. That is a wish.
Like I said, that is silly.
Although not a game programmer I am a business software developer and I can say that many of the things we are talking about here are possible and not a radically huge step from a programming standpoint. Clearly there maybe some balancing and overall game rule things to consider but as a whole we are not talking about chaning water into wine. Perfectly acceptable to have these ideas and points on the table. Even more so when at its core most of the game rules around housing are about a f*ck up as a stripper in a wheel chair
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Everyone doesn't have to play every mmo or use every feature in an mmo. There are lots of swing sword games. Lots of shoot gun games. Lots of cast magic or use explosive games(well, maybe not too many explosives). The number of games that do crafting and housing well without instancing is very few and often very buggy or strapped to FFA PvP with looting (dieing wouldnt be so bad if you didn't lose everything). The games that did do open world housing well are remembered for those features. Why are you raiders and PvPers insisting on coming into a pro-housing thread and trying to force us to play the game you want to play? Can't we both have our own game? We don't want to force housing into your game, we want one designed for us. And for right now, I'd be happy with 1 current, well funded, open world housing game. Raiders and PvPers get 3-5 major MMOs a year every year and it's not enough for you. They aren't exactly what you want, but do you have to take it out on us? We didn't design them. They didn't put money into housing to make them bad.
As a SWG player, I found that the majority of my time in-game was spent searching for mobs that drop items I haven't seen before, solely to display them in my house.
If other games have such low numbers in people that actually mess with it (and I have an *extremely* hard time believing poster #3 is directly involved in any kind of studio, rather than talking out of his ass), then it's because their take on housing is half-assed, and no more than a glorified storage unit with little in the way of customization. A.K.A., LotRO housing... and basically anything else out there post-SWG glory days (besides Wurm, which does it right as well).
Seriously, very few games past UO and SWG take the concept seriously, and just aim at the bare-minimum in order to say they have it as a feature. It becomes trite, and nobody messes with it.
Yes, at least with SWG you could put something in and adjust everything about that item's position, rotation, angle, height from the ground, etc. It gave you alot of freedom.
With SWG, a player could grant permission levels for his house. Private only for only the player, or having specific friends allowed to enter. Or, they could set the house as Public, and any random passerby could come into your house and look at things
I vividly recall alot of SWG players taking great pains on making their house nice and presentable. Some stuff that made you go, "WOW!" I saw everything. Random or organized piles of gear and goods, truly a housing "storage unit." Or guys making a wonderful looking trophy and collection displays of different things to be found in game, including rare stuff (when decay was in the game, a full suit of RIS or Mandalorian Armor was a truly worthy display set). Or set things up to make a theme. For me, it was an Imperial theme, and I got whatever stuff I could to make my house look like a military building.
Most especially, the game allowed player houses to double as their own store. Players took alot of care in making sure their house / store was presentable, stocked, and up to date. Hell, as a shopper, if the player merchant / crafter was in-house at the time, they'd ask if I wanted something specific, maybe custom, and then we'd wheel and deal right then and there.
Good housing, IMO, was a way to have a lasting mark in the game. That was YOUR house on that prime piece of real estate. And you did with it in whatever way you pleased. You may log in or out of the game, but other players could come by and visit, and see a piece of your character still there, and if you set it up, show off your trophies / accomplishments. Or, if the game allowed it like back in SWG, run a store from your own place.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Everyone doesn't have to play every mmo or use every feature in an mmo. There are lots of swing sword games. Lots of shoot gun games. Lots of cast magic or use explosive games(well, maybe not too many explosives). The number of games that do crafting and housing well without instancing is very few and often very buggy or strapped to FFA PvP with looting (dieing wouldnt be so bad if you didn't lose everything). The games that did do open world housing well are remembered for those features. Why are you raiders and PvPers insisting on coming into a pro-housing thread and trying to force us to play the game you want to play? Can't we both have our own game? We don't want to force housing into your game, we want one designed for us. And for right now, I'd be happy with 1 current, well funded, open world housing game. Raiders and PvPers get 3-5 major MMOs a year every year and it's not enough for you. They aren't exactly what you want, but do you have to take it out on us? We didn't design them. They didn't put money into housing to make them bad.
Because it is not your thread.
And it is silly to say anyone force you to do anything. You obviously are not playing games you do not like. It is silly to the extreme to assume that people are forcing you to do anyting, on the INTERNET, through forum posts.
However, it is also silly to assume that you will shut people up by complainign about what they say. In fact, usually that fuels the flame (hence flame war).
And it is silly to say anyone force you to do anything. You obviously are not playing games you do not like. It is silly to the extreme to assume that people are forcing you to do anyting, on the INTERNET, through forum posts.
However, it is also silly to assume that you will shut people up by complainign about what they say. In fact, usually that fuels the flame (hence flame war).
You completely missunderstood what I said. I wasn't saying that anyone is forcing me to play a game. I was asking why people that don't like housing don't want people that do not to have it? And I do choose not to play, or to stop playing, games that don't have the features I want. I let devs know via not paying for their games, and I will say so in exit surveys if they have them.
And it is silly to say anyone force you to do anything. You obviously are not playing games you do not like. It is silly to the extreme to assume that people are forcing you to do anyting, on the INTERNET, through forum posts.
However, it is also silly to assume that you will shut people up by complainign about what they say. In fact, usually that fuels the flame (hence flame war).
You completely missunderstood what I said. I wasn't saying that anyone is forcing me to play a game. I was asking why people that don't like housing don't want people that do not to have it? And I do choose not to play, or to stop playing, games that don't have the features I want. I let devs know via not paying for their games, and I will say so in exit surveys if they have them.
hmm .. do they say they don't want people to have it?
I don't care for housing, and it is fun to point out that it is not likely to happen. However, i have no desire for you not to have it. In fact, i wouldn't care either way.
OTOH, it is entertaining to participate in threads like this. And that, i suspect, is why people post because we all know that nothing we said here is going to change a thing in the MMO marketplace.
Few people come out and say they don't want housing directly. But they make it clear they encourage dev's to spend the time on a set of armor or dungeon instead of housing.
I know this forum is full of flamers and hatred, I also let my opinions loose here more than I would some other boards. I'm not trying to stop flaming, that'd be a tall task, I just wonder why people try so hard to stop others from enjoying a game in a different way then they play. Not that it surprises me anymore.
Few people come out and say they don't want housing directly. But they make it clear they encourage dev's to spend the time on a set of armor or dungeon instead of housing.
I know this forum is full of flamers and hatred, I also let my opinions loose here more than I would some other boards. I'm not trying to stop flaming, that'd be a tall task, I just wonder why people try so hard to stop others from enjoying a game in a different way then they play. Not that it surprises me anymore.
Well, that is different than not wanting you to have housing. That is about devs devoting resources to what THEY like.
I mean, that is fair. I don't care about housing. I like dungeons & items. Of course i will want devs spending their resources on dungeons & items. Why wouldn't i?
If some devs making games i don't play want to put housing as a priority, i have no issues with that.
Multiplayer access to housing item storage is costly to police. If housing was built upon the bank system, it wouldn't be the proverbial theme park anchor.
Players more often don’t use housing as social hubs. Players more often use housing as additional bank space.
/TLDR;
I guess I cancelled my original post to this thread, because the truth hurts. As I intended to say originally. Developers share lessons learned amongst the industry. SOE has tried both open world housing and instanced housing. And I seem to remember being called on this. Player use of housing as a social hub is approximately naught. My original post was probably mod deleted because I gave a number or percentage rather than say approximately.
Truth is the majority of housing is used as additional bank storage. WoW will not have housing anytime soon, because it already has a system in place for additional bank storage. Games that have expanded item storage as a cash shop item, will also not have housing, unless it only accommodates non-bankable items.
Mike-Bee suggested that Theme Park linear progression does not mesh well with fixed point housing. Maybe, but I seem to recall an old theme park housing system (EQ2?) utilizing a pack and store system for moving your house to a new city. The problem that games have is programmers do what they are told, and can’t think for themselves or have had the ability bread out of them. TP Housing can and should be instanced like a hotel or apartment complex. Then the first level of the framework should be the bank system. A system that allows access to the “home” instance anywhere in the game. The UI would the floor plan of the instanced home. This is how I am implementing housing.
But here is the real dark side of housing, multi-player access. Often other players are granted access to items in player housing, similar to guild bank tabs. When another player abuses this trust, the offended player seeks justice from the developer. This is the cost and hassle that developer seek to distance themselves from regarding housing. Incident reports, investigation, recovery of lost items, and player repercussions.
Dev's like to call themselves service providers, their goal is a service with a minimum of customer service. Especially in game conflict resolution. You know that saying about a bell ringing and an angels wings? Well every time a GM is hired, a VP losses his bonus. The perfect service would have no human GMs or customer service at all. Conflict resolution would be handled by AI code that sounded human and resulted in no exploits and no customer dissatisfaction.
I used to think that the effect on database size of the additional storage was the problem. I was told all you have to do when the database grows is add more drives to the raid, and keep the backups safe. The real cost is the human policing of the housing nightmare.
A dev may provide space and tools for social hub development. But the active players will choose what and where will become a social hub. A deve could have taverns and housing implemented to become social hubs, and still the players make the local mailbox their hub.
I swear someone claimed in this very thread before that I was not a fan of housing. I am, in SWG, I had 11 ‘toons, that is 110 lots. And every ‘toon owned at least one house, I had a theater and a hospital for two months or so.
What should be really asked is what would everyone that wants a house use it for? And what could be done to encourage the use of housing as social hubs? Don’t hate “The Matrix Online” but they had elaborate nightclub levels designed to be used as social hubs, but players used the third mailbox instead. SWG is famous for it housing (unvisited fish tank museums). But only the buff bots saw any social numbers, none rivaled the volume of Theed Cantina. “City of Heroes” has possibly the best social hub, but I can never remember the name, “Node One?”
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Few people come out and say they don't want housing directly. But they make it clear they encourage dev's to spend the time on a set of armor or dungeon instead of housing.
I know this forum is full of flamers and hatred, I also let my opinions loose here more than I would some other boards. I'm not trying to stop flaming, that'd be a tall task, I just wonder why people try so hard to stop others from enjoying a game in a different way then they play. Not that it surprises me anymore.
many here have question the very premise that people havent been asking for housing. I know at least in the Darkfall community the ask was very loud, clear and often before they put in housing. After housing I think the community agrees that its the single best feature Darkfall ever did after orginal release of the game.
That said, if most player entire experience of a house is a place to put crap on the mantel you cant blame them for not caring much. The vast majority of people do not have good skills in imagination so if they havent experienced it they dont have a reference.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Which brings up the question would housing have made most of the games to release without it better games? I really think the addition would have been inconsequential for games like TOR or others. I personally don't think SWG would have been a worse game without it, in all honesty I think it may have A: peformed better and B: had a more interesting world layout.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I loved the Sims. My sister who plays like no video games did also. I loved the sims because I could build a house, which is also why my sister liked it.
But I also loved to optimize. I would figure out the best career for the least amount of training for instance. I also always had 8 couples as my sims so that I could maximize income and get optimal value from the more expensive but more efficient higher level items like tubs and stoves and beds.
I effectively played Sims like an RPG instead of a virtual dollhouse. Granted it was an economic sim RPG instead of a fantasy one but still.
I also agree that a free to play Sims with some farmville style stuff and also a competition in housing could have made it as a game as opposed to the actual model used.
I think you can boil it down, people that are invested in the toon and the game like housing and want a connection to thier charectors. The people that dont care about housing are looking for the next game to play and are not invested in any one game beyond the newness.
I wonder if thats the real reason why their not building more well rounded games. Why spend money in the area that the nitch market likes, "the player thats going to stick around". Instead spend it on bells and whistles for the larger crowd of players that are only here for a month or two before moving on to the next game.
One of the main reasons why it isn't looked at is because it requires huge server power. Think of millions of people being able to build things in the game world. I am talking about real time housing. Alot of games have housing but most of it is instanced.
Ultima Online had real time housing. I think Vanguard and SWG had or has it. I think with cloud technology they will be able to pull it off.
One of the main reasons why it isn't looked at is because it requires huge server power. Think of millions of people being able to build things in the game world. I am talking about real time housing. Alot of games have housing but most of it is instanced.
Ultima Online had real time housing. I think Vanguard and SWG had or has it. I think with cloud technology they will be able to pull it off.
I will reply to you but its also to a few others all at the same time.
1. I really doubt housing requires a huge server power compared to every other feature in the game! Darkfall added housing to their system without altering the servers (at least as far as I know. They did a server upgrade but not related to housing).
2. For the vast majority of people, if they havent experienced it they cant imagine it. What about SWG style housing in AOC would AOC housing then be unimportant? hmmm.
3. people who have experienced SWG housing typically are the ones who ask for it in other games. People who have had experience only with 'a place to display my crap' housing typically dont care. anyone see a trend here?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think you can boil it down, people that are invested in the toon and the game like housing and want a connection to thier charectors. The people that dont care about housing are looking for the next game to play and are not invested in any one game beyond the newness.
I wonder if thats the real reason why their not building more well rounded games. Why spend money in the area that the nitch market likes, "the player thats going to stick around". Instead spend it on bells and whistles for the larger crowd of players that are only here for a month or two before moving on to the next game.
There is a lot of truth in that. There are so many games out there that there is really little reason to stick around just one for a long time.
My guess is because devs are no longer concerned with developing a MMO world for a dynamic community.. But instead spend their time on the arcade Esport teir grinding.. It's quicker and cheaper.. MMORPG's are more like FPS games with PvE elements, than anything..
I think you can boil it down, people that are invested in the toon and the game like housing and want a connection to thier charectors. The people that dont care about housing are looking for the next game to play and are not invested in any one game beyond the newness.
I wonder if thats the real reason why their not building more well rounded games. Why spend money in the area that the nitch market likes, "the player thats going to stick around". Instead spend it on bells and whistles for the larger crowd of players that are only here for a month or two before moving on to the next game.
There is a lot of truth in that. There are so many games out there that there is really little reason to stick around just one for a long time.
most people who havent experienced it cant imagine it. So for many the word 'housing' just means something simlar to what EQ2 which is a joke. I dont think you would ever hear someone who played SWG making the same points about housing has he has made here. So a point of reference is important.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
I keep some items for their look, unique use, and fun factor.
I've had the baby from Blackburrow in EQ1 in my bank for a decade now. There's a 10 year old boy in my bank.
a yo ho ho
1. a 'housing system' that is designed only to show off trophies is not a housing system as far as I am concerned and should never ever be part of a discussion regarding housing. Developing a system where that is the only or primary purpose is, to be completely frank, an insult to gamers.
2. most people will take the path of least resitance and most forwardly mobile. If they could log in and hit 'I win' button they would. Thus, putting features into your game making it easier to do a specific task then the same task via housing is no surpise to me whatoever that people will choose the non-housing route and then eventually find themselves wondering why anyone would do housing.
3. disconnecting housing from the rest of 'the game' or making it easier to do all tasks in another way is similar to asking the fighter 'why a handknife to kill your mobs instead of a good sword'.
I personally do not consider myself a very highly intelligent person. With that said I am a bit surprised that even though on a personal level I dont care if housing exists in any shape or form and as a result my emotional investment in this subject is very low but even with those parameters I am able to quickly see the stark difference between what is actualy in housing for most games and what could be in housing which would make the entire experience radically different.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
What could be .. is not relevant. No one is building this "what could be". No one has spec it out. No one has any idea whether it will work or not.
Some vague ideas about vast superior housing is irrelevant and not useful. This is like saying, the current travel system is too boring .. if it is build vastly better, players will do nothing else by travel in a game.
thats silly. something has to be created first before you can consider it an option? Ok, leave the innovation ideas for the big boys...;)
If we just left options to what has been created we would even have MMOs to begin with. Your sounding like a TES Online lead developer now.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
There isn't even a concrete idea. MMOs are based on PREVIOUS games. UO is an extension of U7. EQ is a graphical version of Diku MUD. Just saying "doing it better" is not relevant.
And i don't see any idea from you except .. housing can be better. That is not an idea. That is a wish.
Like I said, that is silly.
Although not a game programmer I am a business software developer and I can say that many of the things we are talking about here are possible and not a radically huge step from a programming standpoint. Clearly there maybe some balancing and overall game rule things to consider but as a whole we are not talking about chaning water into wine. Perfectly acceptable to have these ideas and points on the table. Even more so when at its core most of the game rules around housing are about a f*ck up as a stripper in a wheel chair
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Everyone doesn't have to play every mmo or use every feature in an mmo. There are lots of swing sword games. Lots of shoot gun games. Lots of cast magic or use explosive games(well, maybe not too many explosives). The number of games that do crafting and housing well without instancing is very few and often very buggy or strapped to FFA PvP with looting (dieing wouldnt be so bad if you didn't lose everything). The games that did do open world housing well are remembered for those features. Why are you raiders and PvPers insisting on coming into a pro-housing thread and trying to force us to play the game you want to play? Can't we both have our own game? We don't want to force housing into your game, we want one designed for us. And for right now, I'd be happy with 1 current, well funded, open world housing game. Raiders and PvPers get 3-5 major MMOs a year every year and it's not enough for you. They aren't exactly what you want, but do you have to take it out on us? We didn't design them. They didn't put money into housing to make them bad.
Yes, at least with SWG you could put something in and adjust everything about that item's position, rotation, angle, height from the ground, etc. It gave you alot of freedom.
With SWG, a player could grant permission levels for his house. Private only for only the player, or having specific friends allowed to enter. Or, they could set the house as Public, and any random passerby could come into your house and look at things
I vividly recall alot of SWG players taking great pains on making their house nice and presentable. Some stuff that made you go, "WOW!" I saw everything. Random or organized piles of gear and goods, truly a housing "storage unit." Or guys making a wonderful looking trophy and collection displays of different things to be found in game, including rare stuff (when decay was in the game, a full suit of RIS or Mandalorian Armor was a truly worthy display set). Or set things up to make a theme. For me, it was an Imperial theme, and I got whatever stuff I could to make my house look like a military building.
Most especially, the game allowed player houses to double as their own store. Players took alot of care in making sure their house / store was presentable, stocked, and up to date. Hell, as a shopper, if the player merchant / crafter was in-house at the time, they'd ask if I wanted something specific, maybe custom, and then we'd wheel and deal right then and there.
Good housing, IMO, was a way to have a lasting mark in the game. That was YOUR house on that prime piece of real estate. And you did with it in whatever way you pleased. You may log in or out of the game, but other players could come by and visit, and see a piece of your character still there, and if you set it up, show off your trophies / accomplishments. Or, if the game allowed it like back in SWG, run a store from your own place.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Because it is not your thread.
And it is silly to say anyone force you to do anything. You obviously are not playing games you do not like. It is silly to the extreme to assume that people are forcing you to do anyting, on the INTERNET, through forum posts.
However, it is also silly to assume that you will shut people up by complainign about what they say. In fact, usually that fuels the flame (hence flame war).
You completely missunderstood what I said. I wasn't saying that anyone is forcing me to play a game. I was asking why people that don't like housing don't want people that do not to have it? And I do choose not to play, or to stop playing, games that don't have the features I want. I let devs know via not paying for their games, and I will say so in exit surveys if they have them.
hmm .. do they say they don't want people to have it?
I don't care for housing, and it is fun to point out that it is not likely to happen. However, i have no desire for you not to have it. In fact, i wouldn't care either way.
OTOH, it is entertaining to participate in threads like this. And that, i suspect, is why people post because we all know that nothing we said here is going to change a thing in the MMO marketplace.
Few people come out and say they don't want housing directly. But they make it clear they encourage dev's to spend the time on a set of armor or dungeon instead of housing.
I know this forum is full of flamers and hatred, I also let my opinions loose here more than I would some other boards. I'm not trying to stop flaming, that'd be a tall task, I just wonder why people try so hard to stop others from enjoying a game in a different way then they play. Not that it surprises me anymore.
Well, that is different than not wanting you to have housing. That is about devs devoting resources to what THEY like.
I mean, that is fair. I don't care about housing. I like dungeons & items. Of course i will want devs spending their resources on dungeons & items. Why wouldn't i?
If some devs making games i don't play want to put housing as a priority, i have no issues with that.
TLDR
Multiplayer access to housing item storage is costly to police.
If housing was built upon the bank system, it wouldn't be the proverbial theme park anchor.
Players more often don’t use housing as social hubs.
Players more often use housing as additional bank space.
/TLDR;
I guess I cancelled my original post to this thread, because the truth hurts. As I intended to say originally. Developers share lessons learned amongst the industry. SOE has tried both open world housing and instanced housing. And I seem to remember being called on this. Player use of housing as a social hub is approximately naught. My original post was probably mod deleted because I gave a number or percentage rather than say approximately.
Truth is the majority of housing is used as additional bank storage. WoW will not have housing anytime soon, because it already has a system in place for additional bank storage. Games that have expanded item storage as a cash shop item, will also not have housing, unless it only accommodates non-bankable items.
Mike-Bee suggested that Theme Park linear progression does not mesh well with fixed point housing. Maybe, but I seem to recall an old theme park housing system (EQ2?) utilizing a pack and store system for moving your house to a new city. The problem that games have is programmers do what they are told, and can’t think for themselves or have had the ability bread out of them. TP Housing can and should be instanced like a hotel or apartment complex. Then the first level of the framework should be the bank system. A system that allows access to the “home” instance anywhere in the game. The UI would the floor plan of the instanced home. This is how I am implementing housing.
But here is the real dark side of housing, multi-player access. Often other players are granted access to items in player housing, similar to guild bank tabs. When another player abuses this trust, the offended player seeks justice from the developer. This is the cost and hassle that developer seek to distance themselves from regarding housing. Incident reports, investigation, recovery of lost items, and player repercussions.
Dev's like to call themselves service providers, their goal is a service with a minimum of customer service. Especially in game conflict resolution. You know that saying about a bell ringing and an angels wings? Well every time a GM is hired, a VP losses his bonus. The perfect service would have no human GMs or customer service at all. Conflict resolution would be handled by AI code that sounded human and resulted in no exploits and no customer dissatisfaction.
I used to think that the effect on database size of the additional storage was the problem. I was told all you have to do when the database grows is add more drives to the raid, and keep the backups safe. The real cost is the human policing of the housing nightmare.
A dev may provide space and tools for social hub development. But the active players will choose what and where will become a social hub. A deve could have taverns and housing implemented to become social hubs, and still the players make the local mailbox their hub.
I swear someone claimed in this very thread before that I was not a fan of housing. I am, in SWG, I had 11 ‘toons, that is 110 lots. And every ‘toon owned at least one house, I had a theater and a hospital for two months or so.
What should be really asked is what would everyone that wants a house use it for? And what could be done to encourage the use of housing as social hubs? Don’t hate “The Matrix Online” but they had elaborate nightclub levels designed to be used as social hubs, but players used the third mailbox instead. SWG is famous for it housing (unvisited fish tank museums). But only the buff bots saw any social numbers, none rivaled the volume of Theed Cantina. “City of Heroes” has possibly the best social hub, but I can never remember the name, “Node One?”
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Artificial player hubs won't work unless they have access to 5 areas of the game
-Transportation to/from Battle grounds, Dungeons, Raids
-Bank
-Trading (auctionhouse or what ever system they use -commonlands tunnel)
-Mailbox if trading requires it
-Crafting
Players will congregate where those 5 items are most well represented.
edit delete
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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many here have question the very premise that people havent been asking for housing. I know at least in the Darkfall community the ask was very loud, clear and often before they put in housing. After housing I think the community agrees that its the single best feature Darkfall ever did after orginal release of the game.
That said, if most player entire experience of a house is a place to put crap on the mantel you cant blame them for not caring much. The vast majority of people do not have good skills in imagination so if they havent experienced it they dont have a reference.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Which brings up the question would housing have made most of the games to release without it better games? I really think the addition would have been inconsequential for games like TOR or others. I personally don't think SWG would have been a worse game without it, in all honesty I think it may have A: peformed better and B: had a more interesting world layout.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think you can boil it down, people that are invested in the toon and the game like housing and want a connection to thier charectors. The people that dont care about housing are looking for the next game to play and are not invested in any one game beyond the newness.
I wonder if thats the real reason why their not building more well rounded games. Why spend money in the area that the nitch market likes, "the player thats going to stick around". Instead spend it on bells and whistles for the larger crowd of players that are only here for a month or two before moving on to the next game.
One of the main reasons why it isn't looked at is because it requires huge server power. Think of millions of people being able to build things in the game world. I am talking about real time housing. Alot of games have housing but most of it is instanced.
Ultima Online had real time housing. I think Vanguard and SWG had or has it. I think with cloud technology they will be able to pull it off.
I will reply to you but its also to a few others all at the same time.
1. I really doubt housing requires a huge server power compared to every other feature in the game! Darkfall added housing to their system without altering the servers (at least as far as I know. They did a server upgrade but not related to housing).
2. For the vast majority of people, if they havent experienced it they cant imagine it. What about SWG style housing in AOC would AOC housing then be unimportant? hmmm.
3. people who have experienced SWG housing typically are the ones who ask for it in other games. People who have had experience only with 'a place to display my crap' housing typically dont care. anyone see a trend here?
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There is a lot of truth in that. There are so many games out there that there is really little reason to stick around just one for a long time.
Because most devs don't care about making good MMOs anymore.
They want to make super singleplayer hand holding WoW clones, and WoW doesn't have housing.
My guess is because devs are no longer concerned with developing a MMO world for a dynamic community.. But instead spend their time on the arcade Esport teir grinding.. It's quicker and cheaper.. MMORPG's are more like FPS games with PvE elements, than anything..
most people who havent experienced it cant imagine it. So for many the word 'housing' just means something simlar to what EQ2 which is a joke. I dont think you would ever hear someone who played SWG making the same points about housing has he has made here. So a point of reference is important.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me