Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Is it fun? The hubris of bucking convention.

1235

Comments

  • ConnmacartConnmacart OsloPosts: 681Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kedoremos

     

     
    This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.
     
    The gear grind is required. The profession grind is required. The achievement grind is required. It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO.

    Basically what you want is the same as saying I want Pork Chops with Broccoli and Potatoes for the rest of my life with the only difference being how it is prepared and what spices are being used. Right got you. I'd rather want a varied choice.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member
    Originally posted by kedoremos
    Originally posted by TheTrueKing

     


    Originally posted by kedoremos   The gear grind is required  FOR ME . The profession grind is required  FOR ME . The achievement grind is required  FOR ME . It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO -  FOR ME
     

     

    There I fixed it for you because for most of us we don't agree.

    How's the bandwagon feel? A little rough? Here's a pillow.

     

    Few people cause change by agreement.

    Concluding that any attempt to break the mould and revolutionise (to whatever degree) the status quo as 'hubris' is not a grammatical error on your part - it is a fundamental statement about your view of the world.

    The world is full of people who 9-5 and don't rock the boat, dealing with the world they are handed, regardless of whether they agree with it. There is nothing inherently wrong with that - the world needs far more followers and team members than leaders to operate.

    However, to assume it is hubris to want to change something many people clearly would like to see changed isn't a supportable position to take without evidence to back it up - it is just as (or more) likely that such a thing is driven by innovation, creative thought and application.

    It may succeed - it may fail - but it isn't hubris de facto - it is vision.

    The real bandwagon here is the one loaded with people who think things cannot or should not be changed.

    Rolling along on the biggest bandwagon in the area and complaining that other people are on their own bandwagon isn't hubris either - its hypocrisy.

    Asking people not to insult you and then talking about the need for a comforting pillow for those who don't agree with you isn't hubris - it's condescension.

    The real irony here is that there wouldn't be any 'bandwagons' without the invention of the wheel....

    .... I wonder how much hypocrisy and condescension the inventor of the wheel had to suffer before his detractors understood he had improved matters....

    GW2 may not be the 'wheel' of MMOs - but it is an attempt to improve things - I defy you to logically deny it.

    VERY few people cause change by agreement (with the status quo)....

  • KalmporosKalmporos GroumpaPosts: 280Member Uncommon

    To be honest I like to have long term goals in games like that. They dont have to be BiS gear or something that makes my char more powerful though.

    Thats why, I'm one of the few people who actually like the "random" sPvP rewards. And as long as there are sPvP leaderboards etc I'll be happy.

    I can't hide that I'm worried about PvE and W v W though. I know that there are cosmetic sets gained through PvE at level 80 but we dont have enough info about the amount of them or the frequency/reliability of their drop rates.

    And what about W v W? Some people will participate just for fun but as a feature that will need lots of people, "some" people wont be enough. And decisions like anonymity and non-permanent enemies will hurt the W v W "endgame" imo.

     

    Maybe I just lack knowledge. I'm no GW2 expert by any means so if you know something I dont, please enlighten me.

  • SpendrikSpendrik SingaporePosts: 39Member

    It depends on what you play for.

    Completion? Sense of achievement? Being 'better' than other players?

    Or just having a good evening of fun after work/school?

    GW2 doesn't have to keep you playing it like a job (Anet's got your $60 already), it just needs to entertain you when you do play.

  • helthroshelthros Miami, FLPosts: 1,449Member

    I'm just curious... I see a lot of people referencing other games that have gear grinds etc as to how badly they suck (oddly enough at least one of them is simply unmatched in success). Having said that, nobody references a game that doesn't have the gear grind to show "That's how a game should be and it shows proof that you don't need a gear grind".

     

    Playing a game just to play it works just fine... for FPS like Modern Warfare. While GW2 is built fairly arcade style, I wouldn't do too much chest beating about how long lasting the content will be just yet.

  • SpendrikSpendrik SingaporePosts: 39Member
    Originally posted by helthros

    Playing a game just to play it works just fine... for FPS like Modern Warfare. While GW2 is built fairly arcade style, I wouldn't do too much chest beating about how long lasting the content will be just yet.

    Why should MMOs and FPSes be measured differently on the 'fun' scale?

    Especially for GW2, which is B2P, just like Modern Warfare, for example.

    The prevailing sentiment about MMOs seems to be that they have to be 'long lasting'.

    Not long-lasting = poor MMO? (even when you're not paying monthly subs)

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAPosts: 2,320Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kedoremos

     

     
    This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.
     
    The gear grind is required. The profession grind is required. The achievement grind is required. It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO.

    For you, maybe. I think it's a hell of a lot of fun, and a lot of people agree. Adding in a gear grind in particular, is not required, plenty of games are doing away with it and for good reason; it sucks.

    Expecting every game to be a clone in convention of the ones that came before it is a setup for failure of gaming in general. If that's what you want, you certainly have a wide variety of other games to play.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,281Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Spendrik
    Originally posted by helthros

    Playing a game just to play it works just fine... for FPS like Modern Warfare. While GW2 is built fairly arcade style, I wouldn't do too much chest beating about how long lasting the content will be just yet.

    Why should MMOs and FPSes be measured differently on the 'fun' scale?

    Especially for GW2, which is B2P, just like Modern Warfare, for example.

    The prevailing sentiment about MMOs seems to be that they have to be 'long lasting'.

    Not long-lasting = poor MMO? (even when you're not paying monthly subs)

    This makes a lot of sense.

     

    Yeah I do think most people want a long lasting mmo. Something that can keep their intrest for years.  A mmo that's only good for 3 months, or even less than a year is not that good imo too.

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Spendrik
    Originally posted by helthros

    Playing a game just to play it works just fine... for FPS like Modern Warfare. While GW2 is built fairly arcade style, I wouldn't do too much chest beating about how long lasting the content will be just yet.

    Why should MMOs and FPSes be measured differently on the 'fun' scale?

    Especially for GW2, which is B2P, just like Modern Warfare, for example.

    The prevailing sentiment about MMOs seems to be that they have to be 'long lasting'.

    Not long-lasting = poor MMO? (even when you're not paying monthly subs)

    This makes a lot of sense.

     

    Yeah I do think most people want a long lasting mmo. Something that can keep their intrest for years.  A mmo that's only good for 3 months, or even less than a year is not that good imo too.

    I think defining whether a game is going to have lasting appeal or not before we've seen a good bit of it (and more importantly, seen how quickly new content is released) is a bit premature. 

     

    I think the reason that MMO players have the mindset of "an MMO must be long lasting to be good" is because of the sub model. They wanted to make sure they were getting something that was worth their invested time and kept them playing every month. WIthout that, does longer lasting mean it's a bad game?

     

    If I play 40 hours, love every second of it, then go off and play something else, does THAT mean a game is bad? Not unless I don't feel I got my sixty bucks worth.

     

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by helthros
    I'm just curious... I see a lot of people referencing other games that have gear grinds etc as to how badly they suck (oddly enough at least one of them is simply unmatched in success). Having said that, nobody references a game that doesn't have the gear grind to show "That's how a game should be and it shows proof that you don't need a gear grind".
    Uh, how about Guild Wars 1?
  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Yup no accident both gw1 and gw2 have learned from history and avoided gear dependant games.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Re posts above about Long lasting mmos- that is one the things that defines mmos- a virtual gaming environment where you can develop an and invest in an avatar in a game you kno is not going to be a ghost zone in a year.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Belleville, ONPosts: 1,108Member
    Originally posted by helthros

    I'm just curious... I see a lot of people referencing other games that have gear grinds etc as to how badly they suck (oddly enough at least one of them is simply unmatched in success). Having said that, nobody references a game that doesn't have the gear grind to show "That's how a game should be and it shows proof that you don't need a gear grind".

     

    Playing a game just to play it works just fine... for FPS like Modern Warfare. While GW2 is built fairly arcade style, I wouldn't do too much chest beating about how long lasting the content will be just yet.

    Not sure about how much proof in the puddin you need ....but when the number of former players exceeds the number of present players by 5X something isn't right

  • biogermbiogerm somewherePosts: 169Member

    if GW2 will be anything like gw... then...

     

     

    then i wouldnt worry so much if i were you.

    I 3930k -- Rampage IV Extreme -- G.skill RipjawsZ 32 GB -- Corsair Force Series 3 120gb -- G.skill Phoenix Pro 60gb -- WD 1 TB Black -- Corsair H 100 -- Thermaltake Level 10 Gt Snow Edition -- Corsair AX1200 -- Asus 560 Ti Sli -- Microsoft Sidewinder X4 -- Logitech G5 -- DELL UltraSharp 2007FP -- Samsung Syncmaster Sa700 -- Logitech Z2300 -- Logitech G35 -- Logitech G600 White -- coming soon : Dell U2711.

  • SpendrikSpendrik SingaporePosts: 39Member
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Re posts above about Long lasting mmos- that is one the things that defines mmos- a virtual gaming environment where you can develop an and invest in an avatar in a game you kno is not going to be a ghost zone in a year.

    That definition is taught by games that demand a sub from you every month. It's in their financial interest to keep you 'invested'.

    If your outlay is only $60, like most other video games, why should how you're going to feel about your avatar matter in your buying decision?

    Shouldn't game features and fun be more important?

    Unless of course, you consider gear grinds fun. I can't argue with that.

    It's just a game, not a lifestyle.

  • SpendrikSpendrik SingaporePosts: 39Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Spendrik
    Originally posted by helthros

    Playing a game just to play it works just fine... for FPS like Modern Warfare. While GW2 is built fairly arcade style, I wouldn't do too much chest beating about how long lasting the content will be just yet.

    Why should MMOs and FPSes be measured differently on the 'fun' scale?

    Especially for GW2, which is B2P, just like Modern Warfare, for example.

    The prevailing sentiment about MMOs seems to be that they have to be 'long lasting'.

    Not long-lasting = poor MMO? (even when you're not paying monthly subs)

    This makes a lot of sense.

     

    Yeah I do think most people want a long lasting mmo. Something that can keep their intrest for years.  A mmo that's only good for 3 months, or even less than a year is not that good imo too.

    So a 'good' mmo needs to keep players occupied for more than 1 year to make players feel that they've got their $60's worth?

    From a businessman's point of view, MMOs have horrid ROI then :)

  • helthroshelthros Miami, FLPosts: 1,449Member

    Originally posted by Banquetto

     


    Originally posted by helthros
    I'm just curious... I see a lot of people referencing other games that have gear grinds etc as to how badly they suck (oddly enough at least one of them is simply unmatched in success). Having said that, nobody references a game that doesn't have the gear grind to show "That's how a game should be and it shows proof that you don't need a gear grind".


    Uh, how about Guild Wars 1?

     

    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Yup no accident both gw1 and gw2 have learned from history and avoided gear dependant games.

     

    Did you guys even play GW1?

    Where is this misconception coming from that GW1 didn't have a grind? The grind was about unlocking perfect weapon/gear components. It was about obtaining or unlocking runes. The grind was about capturing elites and other necessary skills for the class(es) you enjoyed playing (before they added books of course).

     

    People farmed gold - They farmed UW etc for Ectos. People farmed items to get the gear with the perfect stats on it. Not gear dependant? I wouldn't exactly say that like people didn't flock and grind for the newest gear every expansion with the perfect max stats on it.

    So disguising the grind in another dress is ok, but when it's straight up "gear" it's horrid and mind-numbing?

  • ScarlyngScarlyng Pleasant Hill, CAPosts: 159Member

    It may be hubris to dare to step outside of the established order.  However, without people being willing to do just that, there is no change, no innovation.

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

  • seridanseridan ThessalonikiPosts: 1,202Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by helthros

    Did you guys even play GW1?

    I still play GW1

    Where is this misconception coming from that GW1 didn't have a grind? The grind was about unlocking perfect weapon/gear components. It was about obtaining or unlocking runes. The grind was about capturing elites and other necessary skills for the class(es) you enjoyed playing (before they added books of course).

     Skill bar and proper play is far superior than gear though. I wouldn't consider capturing elites, or any other skills, a grind it was a part of gameplay and it didn't require doing the same thing over and over again (grind)

    People farmed gold - They farmed UW etc for Ectos. People farmed items to get the gear with the perfect stats on it. Not gear dependant? I wouldn't exactly say that like people didn't flock and grind for the newest gear every expansion with the perfect max stats on it.

    There was/is no NEED to farm gold or farm UW. I have 45/50 on my HoM, perfect builds on all my chars and I never ever touched UW farming. Also, there is no NEED to have perfect gear. Is it really important to have a sword with +30 HP and not +25 or +29? No it wouldn't make much of a difference any way. There is a huge difference between having to grind (doing a raid a few hundred times to get proper set gear) in order to go to the next raid and having to grind for a "perfect" item without it having a huge impact on your gameplay.

    So disguising the grind in another dress is ok, but when it's straight up "gear" it's horrid and mind-numbing?

    The kind of grind in GW1 is optional. The typical gear grind is not. You HAVE to grind to be able to finish certain dungeons/raid, in GW1 you don't. Perfect items don't mean perfect player.

     

    Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,156Member
    Originally posted by helthros

    I'm just curious... I see a lot of people referencing other games that have gear grinds etc as to how badly they suck (oddly enough at least one of them is simply unmatched in success). Having said that, nobody references a game that doesn't have the gear grind to show "That's how a game should be and it shows proof that you don't need a gear grind".

     

    Playing a game just to play it works just fine... for FPS like Modern Warfare. While GW2 is built fairly arcade style, I wouldn't do too much chest beating about how long lasting the content will be just yet.

    Because

    1- Those games are lobby based which means you don't need as much of a population as an mmorpg. But even then it's bad. I just came of Operation 7. Do to the lack of players (well, not that much), there's less maps, less variety, etc. That 10x worse in an mmo. Which is why GW1 is not the same as GW2

    2- Games liek FPS, MOBA, and all other genres revolve around pure gameplay. It's addctive. MMORGP don't have the addictive factor those other have with nothing more than gameplay. progression in rpgs has always been importantr. Not only that, even many of those game have several progression mechanics to even give more longevity.

    "Grinding" isn't bad per se. It's just the gear treadmill that's so annoying and repetative. However, GW2 is an mmorpg that needs players, sub or not. it doesn't work the same as lobby games like it's predecessor.

    EDIT: Also, to me, quality mmo doesn't mean i have to play it for all of eternity. I like TSW and GW2 because of just that.

  • helthroshelthros Miami, FLPosts: 1,449Member
    Originally posted by seridan
    Originally posted by helthros
    Colored replies are always fun.

    I still play GW1

     Skill bar and proper play is far superior than gear though. I wouldn't consider capturing elites, or any other skills, a grind it was a part of gameplay and it didn't require doing the same thing over and over again (grind)

    Now I know you didn't play GW1 at release. It absolutely did require doing the same thing over and over again. Signets didn't work the way they work now and bosses only had a chance of spawning. There were no books to 'cheat' and learn stuff with the mere use of gold. You absolutely had to run the same area over and over again hoping to get the boss that had the skill you wanted. Even then, you had to capture it right after they used it. They didn't use the skill? Too bad, you couldn't capture it. Without the introduction of Heroes, most of the time this meant hassling a group of people to come out with you, which wasn't always possible.

    There was/is no NEED to farm gold or farm UW. I have 45/50 on my HoM, perfect builds on all my chars and I never ever touched UW farming. Also, there is no NEED to have perfect gear. Is it really important to have a sword with +30 HP and not +25 or +29? No it wouldn't make much of a difference any way. There is a huge difference between having to grind (doing a raid a few hundred times to get proper set gear) in order to go to the next raid and having to grind for a "perfect" item without it having a huge impact on your gameplay.

    lol ok, you tell the people that were competitive about HoH that you didn't need to have gear with perfect stats on it.

    The kind of grind in GW1 is optional. The typical gear grind is not. You HAVE to grind to be able to finish certain dungeons/raid, in GW1 you don't. Perfect items don't mean perfect player.

    Perfect items don't necessarily result in perfect players in other games either. I remember regularly out-dpsing and out-healing people that outgeared the crap out of my in WoW simply out of being a better player. I didn't need the gear, it's just a crutch for average to bad gamers.

    Clearly you didn't play before heroes and skill books were introduced, but let me reassure you that the game was very much a grind before then. When you capped the cost of your skills it took a considerable amount of money (and farming) to be able to expand your abilities. Either that or grinding zones to try to capture the skills you wanted (which again, required buying signet captures).

    The grind wasn't gear, it was skills. You can put a different dress on it, but it was still a grind. You couldn't complete the last string of dungeons on the fire island (ring of fire I think? It's been ages) without having an optimal build setup with the appropriate elite skill on all of the participating characters.

     

     

     

  • caremuchlesscaremuchless Crestline, CAPosts: 603Member
    Originally posted by kedoremos

     

     
    This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.
     
    The gear grind is required. The profession grind is required. The achievement grind is required. It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO.

    The arrogance of "Doing it how we always did it because that's how it has always been done." 

     

    To put it mildly, I despise that sentiment.

    image

  • mearimeari SydneyPosts: 101Member
    Originally posted by helthros
    Originally posted by seridan
    Originally posted by helthros
    Colored replies are always fun.

    I still play GW1

     Skill bar and proper play is far superior than gear though. I wouldn't consider capturing elites, or any other skills, a grind it was a part of gameplay and it didn't require doing the same thing over and over again (grind)

    Now I know you didn't play GW1 at release. It absolutely did require doing the same thing over and over again. Signets didn't work the way they work now and bosses only had a chance of spawning. There were no books to 'cheat' and learn stuff with the mere use of gold. You absolutely had to run the same area over and over again hoping to get the boss that had the skill you wanted. Even then, you had to capture it right after they used it. They didn't use the skill? Too bad, you couldn't capture it. Without the introduction of Heroes, most of the time this meant hassling a group of people to come out with you, which wasn't always possible.

    There was/is no NEED to farm gold or farm UW. I have 45/50 on my HoM, perfect builds on all my chars and I never ever touched UW farming. Also, there is no NEED to have perfect gear. Is it really important to have a sword with +30 HP and not +25 or +29? No it wouldn't make much of a difference any way. There is a huge difference between having to grind (doing a raid a few hundred times to get proper set gear) in order to go to the next raid and having to grind for a "perfect" item without it having a huge impact on your gameplay.

    lol ok, you tell the people that were competitive about HoH that you didn't need to have gear with perfect stats on it.

    The kind of grind in GW1 is optional. The typical gear grind is not. You HAVE to grind to be able to finish certain dungeons/raid, in GW1 you don't. Perfect items don't mean perfect player.

    Perfect items don't necessarily result in perfect players in other games either. I remember regularly out-dpsing and out-healing people that outgeared the crap out of my in WoW simply out of being a better player. I didn't need the gear, it's just a crutch for average to bad gamers.

    Clearly you didn't play before heroes and skill books were introduced, but let me reassure you that the game was very much a grind before then. When you capped the cost of your skills it took a considerable amount of money (and farming) to be able to expand your abilities. Either that or grinding zones to try to capture the skills you wanted (which again, required buying signet captures).

    The grind wasn't gear, it was skills. You can put a different dress on it, but it was still a grind. You couldn't complete the last string of dungeons on the fire island (ring of fire I think? It's been ages) without having an optimal build setup with the appropriate elite skill on all of the participating characters.

     

     

     

    You kidding right? Name a boss back in GW1 that could not be defeated using henches.

    There are very few elites that only spawn in one location. Hell's Precipice and Thirsty River are the only two mission if I remember correctly that have elites not found in explorable areas or other missions. And from Factions onward capturing elites are pretty much none issues. Even with the initial mechanism most skills (other than stances which did not show up initially) are easy to capture if your aim is to skill cap, simply leave the boss alive.

    It does take a few repeats I'll give you that, but it is hardly a grind, especially when you don't even need to kill your way to the boss, and each area give you multiple locations for a potential spawn, so while they may not show up on the first spot, the chances of them showing up in the area is actually not that low.

    I played from the day GW1 released, the only time I felt there was grind was the faction point lock in Factions and Sunspears in NF.

    And finally, the Ring of Fire, Abaddon's Mouth and Hell's Precipice can easily be done with no elites. I know because I henched my way through on my first character and the only elite I had then was Mark of Protection (and what an awesome spell it is....).

  • DenambrenDenambren Montreal, QCPosts: 320Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kedoremos

     

     
    This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.

    Actually, EA-Bioware talked about bucking all the conventions, but then cloned WoW. So no one wanted to play.

    Did you just come out of hypersleep on Tuesday? SWTOR didn't turn out like the devs described it would be.

  • caremuchlesscaremuchless Crestline, CAPosts: 603Member
    Originally posted by Denambren
    Originally posted by kedoremos

     

     
    This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.

    Actually, EA-Bioware talked about bucking all the conventions, but then cloned WoW. So no one wanted to play.

    Did you just come out of hypersleep on Tuesday? SWTOR didn't turn out like the devs described it would be.

    ^^ Why did it take 14 pages for someone to finally say it?

     

    image

This discussion has been closed.