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The Importance of Permanence

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Read my statement very careful. ".. has to have .. is flawed". Thus, a vritual world is NOT requierd to have some permanence and to fulfill the purpose of a game .. to be good entertainment.

    So ... you believe we have been asserting that  *all* games have to have permanence?

    No .. i believe you have been asserting that all MMOs have to have permanence .. or at least world permanence is important (i.e. read the title of this thread).

    And i don't think so. MMORPGs are GAMES. They don't have to have a single world permanence to be good. Hence cross-realm stuff is ok. Hence phasing is ok. Hence instances are ok.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by NaughtyP
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NaughtyP
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by Darkmoth

    I'd also argue that if the average gamer basically played one game per decade, the industry would probably implode. Who would invest in a new MMO when you have to wait for the last one to die of old age? How would a new indie game get any subscribers when people were still on year 4 of 8?

    Probably the best argument I've ever heard, but if it meant they would stop flooding the market with the same shit, over and over again, I would rather see another crash ala Atari circa 1983.

    It paved the way for the NES, with arguably one of the best game lineups aside from the PS2.

    I agree. The industry going under to make way for something better... I would not be opposed to that, but there is no guarantee what follows is better or worse lol. You can almost see it coming though. With the flood of F2P titles, subscriptions going out of style, cash shops, big companies like EA cutting staff, Nexon buying everything they can get their hands on, indie games gaining ground... it's getting to look real interesting (in a strange way) anyways.

    So what if the market is flooded with the same shit? You are not required to play. You can always ignore the stuff you do not like.

    If there are 1000 WOW clones with minor variations, who says it is not a good idea for a player to be able to choose the variation of WOW clone he like the most. Who says we cannot simply ignore the other 999?

    I already do that now lol. But my personal preference alone will not change the current trends. Not really a problem for me really though, or my point. I'm just saying things are heating up and I believe there is A LOT of change still to come. It's interesting. I don't know for sure if anything big will come out of all these stories, but it is really fun to talk about!


    No. None of us will change trends. More importantly, the trend is not bad for individual consumers. So what if there are a lot of clone-shit. There are enough indie & non-clone stuff to choose from, if you so desire.

    It is a large world. There is no end to the amount of games & entertaniment. Just like the iOS app store. 99% of the stuff on it are prob crap. However, there are like 600k apps on there. Even 1% (6000!!!) of good stuff is more than i can consume.

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NaughtyP
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NaughtyP
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by Darkmoth

    I'd also argue that if the average gamer basically played one game per decade, the industry would probably implode. Who would invest in a new MMO when you have to wait for the last one to die of old age? How would a new indie game get any subscribers when people were still on year 4 of 8?

    Probably the best argument I've ever heard, but if it meant they would stop flooding the market with the same shit, over and over again, I would rather see another crash ala Atari circa 1983.

    It paved the way for the NES, with arguably one of the best game lineups aside from the PS2.

    I agree. The industry going under to make way for something better... I would not be opposed to that, but there is no guarantee what follows is better or worse lol. You can almost see it coming though. With the flood of F2P titles, subscriptions going out of style, cash shops, big companies like EA cutting staff, Nexon buying everything they can get their hands on, indie games gaining ground... it's getting to look real interesting (in a strange way) anyways.

    So what if the market is flooded with the same shit? You are not required to play. You can always ignore the stuff you do not like.

    If there are 1000 WOW clones with minor variations, who says it is not a good idea for a player to be able to choose the variation of WOW clone he like the most. Who says we cannot simply ignore the other 999?

    I already do that now lol. But my personal preference alone will not change the current trends. Not really a problem for me really though, or my point. I'm just saying things are heating up and I believe there is A LOT of change still to come. It's interesting. I don't know for sure if anything big will come out of all these stories, but it is really fun to talk about!


    No. None of us will change trends. More importantly, the trend is not bad for individual consumers. So what if there are a lot of clone-shit. There are enough indie & non-clone stuff to choose from, if you so desire.

    It is a large world. There is no end to the amount of games & entertaniment. Just like the iOS app store. 99% of the stuff on it are prob crap. However, there are like 600k apps on there. Even 1% (6000!!!) of good stuff is more than i can consume.


    Perhaps there are no AAA games that are intended to be virtual worlds and a virtual home. Why should people that prefer that have to play games that are unfinished, low quality, buggy and without polish?

    There are a lot of games. But how many are high quality?

    I want to have fun and play the type of game I like. I dont want to play something that is broken and a work in progress that will probably never work as intended.  Some of those indie companies have good intentions and a great vision. But that will not help if the game is terrible anyway.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    No .. i believe you have been asserting that all MMOs have to have permanence .. or at least world permanence is important (i.e. read the title of this thread).

    And i don't think so. MMORPGs are GAMES. They don't have to have a single world permanence to be good. Hence cross-realm stuff is ok. Hence phasing is ok. Hence instances are ok.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa ... cross-realm, phasing and instances?  Where did these come from?   Ah, the side discussion of community ...oh, you think this is about *that* old flamewar when I mention permanence.  ug.   Ok no, our thoughts are apparently off in completely different conversations.

     

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Hurvart

    There are a lot of games. But how many are high quality?

     

    Enough to keep me entertained for a long time?

    Arkam City, Spec Ops, COD, Diablo 3, SKYRIM, DCUO... there are more games than i have time to play now.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    No .. i believe you have been asserting that all MMOs have to have permanence .. or at least world permanence is important (i.e. read the title of this thread).

    And i don't think so. MMORPGs are GAMES. They don't have to have a single world permanence to be good. Hence cross-realm stuff is ok. Hence phasing is ok. Hence instances are ok.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa ... cross-realm, phasing and instances?  Where did these come from?   Ah, the side discussion of community ...oh, you think this is about *that* old flamewar when I mention permanence.  ug.   Ok no, our thoughts are apparently off in completely different conversations.

    Well .. flame wars never end, do they?

     

     

     

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    I already do that now lol. But my personal preference alone will not change the current trends. Not really a problem for me really though, or my point. I'm just saying things are heating up and I believe there is A LOT of change still to come. It's interesting. I don't know for sure if anything big will come out of all these stories, but it is really fun to talk about!


    No. None of us will change trends. More importantly, the trend is not bad for individual consumers. So what if there are a lot of clone-shit. There are enough indie & non-clone stuff to choose from, if you so desire.

    It is a large world. There is no end to the amount of games & entertaniment. Just like the iOS app store. 99% of the stuff on it are prob crap. However, there are like 600k apps on there. Even 1% (6000!!!) of good stuff is more than i can consume.

    "Enough" is very debatable. That being said, I can always look outside the MMO genre if I can't get my fix from within it, which I have been happily doing for a while now.

    I can't argue with the quantity and even quality of certain app games. Some are indeed great. But they aren't typically MMOs and rarely (if ever) provide a lengthy experience. If I'm looking for a 10-minute time waster, that's where I turn. If I'm looking for a lengthy play period, I'm most likely looking at a platform other than a mobile device.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by NaughtyP
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    I already do that now lol. But my personal preference alone will not change the current trends. Not really a problem for me really though, or my point. I'm just saying things are heating up and I believe there is A LOT of change still to come. It's interesting. I don't know for sure if anything big will come out of all these stories, but it is really fun to talk about!


    No. None of us will change trends. More importantly, the trend is not bad for individual consumers. So what if there are a lot of clone-shit. There are enough indie & non-clone stuff to choose from, if you so desire.

    It is a large world. There is no end to the amount of games & entertaniment. Just like the iOS app store. 99% of the stuff on it are prob crap. However, there are like 600k apps on there. Even 1% (6000!!!) of good stuff is more than i can consume.

    "Enough" is very debatable. That being said, I can always look outside the MMO genre if I can't get my fix from within it, which I have been happily doing for a while now.

    I can't argue with the quantity and even quality of certain app games. Some are indeed great. But they aren't typically MMOs and rarely (if ever) provide a lengthy experience. If I'm looking for a 10-minute time waster, that's where I turn. If I'm looking for a lengthy play period, I'm most likely looking at a platform other than a mobile device.

    "Enough" for ME .. that is not debatable. If we *just* talk about MMOs (or games close enough to be listed on this site), i won't even have enough time to play Diablo 3, WOW, DCUO and SD Gundam Capsule fighter.

    I probably will give up on WOW after my annual pass is up (because i have played it for so long .. every game ends).

    If you add up app store, single player games, MMOs (and i am not even counting my other hobbies like sci-fi novels & anime), there are MORE than enough stuff to keep me occupied. Often i have to choose.

    BTW, tons of APP store games are pretty long. Do you know that Bard's Tale (the action RPG) is on the iOS? Just Infinitely Blade 1 & 2 are a huge time waster.

     

     

  • MMOarQQMMOarQQ BoogalululuPosts: 636Member

    Developers have lately been misrepresenting their titles as MMOs. It's pretty much as simple as that.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by MMOarQQ

    Developers have lately been misrepresenting their titles as MMOs. It's pretty much as simple as that.

    That is just semantics. Most MMOs are going F2P anyway, and there is not much point pretending to be a MMO.

  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member

    I agree with the OP. I'd even take it a step further and suggest that patches and content updates deteriorate from that permanense you speak of. I too have fond memories of old online games I used to play. And I've gone back to them only to find that they put an mall on top of my old fishing hole. I can't imagine if some of the single player games I've played on and off for years and years suddenly became different games. I like that about those games. I know what to expect and can take a nostalgiac waltz down memory lane any time I choose. WIth the online games, players seem to demand that things always change. Or maybe it's just an excuse to hire developers and give them paychecks, I dunno.

     

    On one hand I understand why online games are ever changing and evolving. On the other hand, that doesn't mean I always have to like it.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Do I really care if a music band I enjoyed before is no longer together?

    Not really, there are other musicians out there.

    Do I really care if a movie/tv show ends?

    Not really.

    Why should MMOs be different?

    I'll play what I find fun with my friends and move on.

     Ah, but how would you feel if your favorite album was changed and you could never hear it the original way again? What if your favorite movie was changed? Sure there are lots of other movies and music to choose from, but sometimes you just want to hear one of your favorite songs. It would suck if that was somehow no longer possible, don't you think?

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • GrahorGrahor aaaPosts: 828Member
    Originally posted by maplestone

     Although I don't always come out and say it, in the back of my mind, I feel that MMOs should aspire the hold their players for a lifetime

    ...

     

    So ... Is the sense of permanence an important consideration in your choice of MMOs?  Or am I just being a little eccentric?

     

     

    Me trying to get my wife and her sister into a threesome is a little eccentric. You are freakin insane.

  • GrahorGrahor aaaPosts: 828Member
    Originally posted by Palebane

     Ah, but how would you feel if your favorite album was changed and you could never hear it the original way again? What if your favorite movie was changed? Sure there are lots of other movies and music to choose from, but sometimes you just want to hear one of your favorite songs. It would suck if that was somehow no longer possible, don't you think?

    Please stop pushing the metaphor that hard! It's screaming in pain! You'll tear her apart, you monster!!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Palebane
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Do I really care if a music band I enjoyed before is no longer together?

    Not really, there are other musicians out there.

    Do I really care if a movie/tv show ends?

    Not really.

    Why should MMOs be different?

    I'll play what I find fun with my friends and move on.

     Ah, but how would you feel if your favorite album was changed and you could never hear it the original way again? What if your favorite movie was changed? Sure there are lots of other movies and music to choose from, but sometimes you just want to hear one of your favorite songs. It would suck if that was somehow no longer possible, don't you think?

    I don't find over-attached to the past useful. So 24 ended. Lost ended. ST TNG ended. It is not like i have a lack of entertainment now because those great shows ended.

    I have yet to see a piece of entertainment so great that i cannot have fun with anything else but it.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Palebane Originally posted by jpnz Do I really care if a music band I enjoyed before is no longer together? Not really, there are other musicians out there. Do I really care if a movie/tv show ends? Not really. Why should MMOs be different? I'll play what I find fun with my friends and move on.
     Ah, but how would you feel if your favorite album was changed and you could never hear it the original way again? What if your favorite movie was changed? Sure there are lots of other movies and music to choose from, but sometimes you just want to hear one of your favorite songs. It would suck if that was somehow no longer possible, don't you think?
    I don't find over-attached to the past useful. So 24 ended. Lost ended. ST TNG ended. It is not like i have a lack of entertainment now because those great shows ended.

    I have yet to see a piece of entertainment so great that i cannot have fun with anything else but it.




    Some things are great because they ended and didn't just keep going and going until the writers or developers run out of ideas. For instance, Happy Days probably could have ended a lot sooner and we wouldn't have "jumping the shark". The show would be remembered because of how good it was, not because it just kept going until they couldn't come up with any other ideas.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • helthroshelthros Miami, FLPosts: 1,449Member

    Personally, I think they should bring con-death back. My favorite MUD of all time had con-death and it allowed people to be more creative and adventerous with their characters. Tides of power would shift regularly and the whole world was so much more alive when during the summer it was the evil denizens of the Damned ruled the world and during the winter it could be the law-abiding Guardians of Law. Of course this was made possible through enforced RP and such, but it still kept the game from getting stale and stagnant.

  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Palebane
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Do I really care if a music band I enjoyed before is no longer together?

    Not really, there are other musicians out there.

    Do I really care if a movie/tv show ends?

    Not really.

    Why should MMOs be different?

    I'll play what I find fun with my friends and move on.

     Ah, but how would you feel if your favorite album was changed and you could never hear it the original way again? What if your favorite movie was changed? Sure there are lots of other movies and music to choose from, but sometimes you just want to hear one of your favorite songs. It would suck if that was somehow no longer possible, don't you think?

    I don't find over-attached to the past useful. So 24 ended. Lost ended. ST TNG ended. It is not like i have a lack of entertainment now because those great shows ended.

    I have yet to see a piece of entertainment so great that i cannot have fun with anything else but it.

     I get what you are saying, and I understand. But those old Johnny Carson episodes that they recorded over will never be seen again by anyone. That is the difference.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • GrahorGrahor aaaPosts: 828Member
    Originally posted by Palebane

     I get what you are saying, and I understand. But those old Johnny Carson episodes that they recorded over will never be seen again by anyone. That is the difference.

    Lots of old movies, books, music pieces are lost forever, not even speaking about theatre and live actors perfomances.

     

    One day, horrors, even you and me will die. Noone, never, ever again will see us, experience our wit and humor, laught with us like we laughed before... This is life. There is plenty of losses in life, permanent, eternal losses. The loss of another mmorpg is nothing special. Learn to live with it. *dakly* you'll need the skills of coping with permanent losses, the older you get, the more skill you need.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Palebane
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Palebane
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Do I really care if a music band I enjoyed before is no longer together?

    Not really, there are other musicians out there.

    Do I really care if a movie/tv show ends?

    Not really.

    Why should MMOs be different?

    I'll play what I find fun with my friends and move on.

     Ah, but how would you feel if your favorite album was changed and you could never hear it the original way again? What if your favorite movie was changed? Sure there are lots of other movies and music to choose from, but sometimes you just want to hear one of your favorite songs. It would suck if that was somehow no longer possible, don't you think?

    I don't find over-attached to the past useful. So 24 ended. Lost ended. ST TNG ended. It is not like i have a lack of entertainment now because those great shows ended.

    I have yet to see a piece of entertainment so great that i cannot have fun with anything else but it.

     I get what you are saying, and I understand. But those old Johnny Carson episodes that they recorded over will never be seen again by anyone. That is the difference.

     

    Lots of great stuff will never be seen by anyone. We have limited life span. No one, unless you have a time machine, has enough time to experience all good entertainment.

    I don't see why it is not better to simple experience the latest and greatest. I have seen old Johnny Carson. While he is great, i would not feel missing out watching an episode of Big Bang Theory (which probably elicit as much laughter from me as Johny ... if no t more) instead of an old JC episode.

  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    I'm one of those old-school players who miss the community and how Everquest 1 used to be before WoW... I still love playing WoW, EQ2 , Lotrs Online, SW:ToR, etc.... I can play other mmos, I can play single player games, I can play facebook games... but it still isn't the way it was on EQ....

     

    The old experience, the old feel that is all dead and gone now and the experience is lonelier and depressing... you get into a group and players usually are dead silent to busy pressing buttons to have a real conversation and be friendly, or you see people fighting over pieces of loot that are just digital data... 

     

    Even when said loot was fairly easy to attain, and only required getting lucky on a random number generated roll off a single boss monster, and there was no epic long questline required, the next week you fight the same exact raid mob again and it will probably drop that item again... 

     

    People just used to be friendly, and now they aren't, they are rushed and loot crazed, and it is a shallow experience.  You can play single player games for a shallow experience, why do MMOs have to be short lived?

     

    They truly should last awhile, you should know who people are, and quests should be in-depth and not shallow fetch repetitive kill this mob, then go kill this mob, and go back out there and kill this guy that was right there where you were the previous 3 times...   

    I miss Star Wars Galaxies and hope we can get a game like that with housing on different planets again, and buying stuff all over the galaxy!! Dancing/Musician Missions and Choose your own skills classless system would be awesome... Give us a sandbox like SWG/Eve Online that is purely PVE with in-depth crafting and housing please!! 

  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    Oh, btw, I still miss 3rd Rock from the Sun every single time I watch The Big Bang Theory,  and there is not a second that I would ever choose it over old classics like 3rd Rock from the Sun, I would watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch, Step by Step, Family Matters, Perfect Strangers, Mad About You, Friends, Seinfield, Frasier, Murphy Brown, Hey! Arnold, Rocko's Modern Life, Doug, any of these shows of the past '90's era over what we have today!! 

     

    Old Nickolodean and 90's tv rocked!! 

    Boy Meets World, ahhh all of these shows used to be soooo entertaining!! 

  • PalebanePalebane Tucson, AZPosts: 3,225Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Palebane
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Palebane
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Do I really care if a music band I enjoyed before is no longer together?

    Not really, there are other musicians out there.

    Do I really care if a movie/tv show ends?

    Not really.

    Why should MMOs be different?

    I'll play what I find fun with my friends and move on.

     Ah, but how would you feel if your favorite album was changed and you could never hear it the original way again? What if your favorite movie was changed? Sure there are lots of other movies and music to choose from, but sometimes you just want to hear one of your favorite songs. It would suck if that was somehow no longer possible, don't you think?

    I don't find over-attached to the past useful. So 24 ended. Lost ended. ST TNG ended. It is not like i have a lack of entertainment now because those great shows ended.

    I have yet to see a piece of entertainment so great that i cannot have fun with anything else but it.

     I get what you are saying, and I understand. But those old Johnny Carson episodes that they recorded over will never be seen again by anyone. That is the difference.

     

    Lots of great stuff will never be seen by anyone. We have limited life span. No one, unless you have a time machine, has enough time to experience all good entertainment.

    I don't see why it is not better to simple experience the latest and greatest. I have seen old Johnny Carson. While he is great, i would not feel missing out watching an episode of Big Bang Theory (which probably elicit as much laughter from me as Johny ... if no t more) instead of an old JC episode.

    Yep, you are right. If you've never seen any of those old episodes you really aren't missing anything. But hypothetically if someone has seen them and loved watching them or whatever, if one day they are suddenly unable, its kind of a drag. That's all I was saying. No, it isn't the end of the world. But you will never experience that again and you will never be able to share it with your friends or your children.  I don't get upset that I can't see an old commercial on TV that I used to like. I can explain that to my friends or family and they might be able to picture it in their minds and get a laugh out of it.

     

     Lots of today's media lasts forever and ever. Music and television will always be around and available as long as computers still operate. Many old PC games are getting new life on todays machines. But when features or entire zones in online games change, they are gone forever (unless there is some kind of emulator of course.) Again, not the end of the world, but still can be a major drag depending on your emotional investment and how clearly you can communicate when trying to share what is no longer there. It's like trying to explain to your son how cool his grandfather was, though he never got to meet them.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

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